← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Walter Yannis
Thread ID: 16752 | Posts: 31 | Started: 2005-02-14
2005-02-14 08:21 | User Profile
[URL=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&e=4&u=/nm/20050213/wl_nm/portugal_fatima_dc]Last of Children to See Fatima Virgin Dies at 97[/URL]
Sun Feb 13, 5:28 PM ET World - Reuters
By Ian Simpson
LISBON (Reuters) - Lucia de Jesus dos Santos, the last of three children who claimed to see the Virgin at Fatima and who revealed a vision the Catholic Church said foretold the attempt to kill Pope John Paul (news - web sites), died on Sunday, the Church said.
Dos Santos, 97, who later became a nun, was the eldest of the shepherd children who in 1917 told of seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary six times. She died at her Carmelite convent at Coimbra in central Portugal.
"She had been weak for several weeks and had not left her cell," Coimbra Bishop Albino Cleto told the Church's Radio Renascenca.
The Vatican (news - web sites) interpreted one part of the visions as foretelling the attempt to kill the Pope and Communism's persecution of Christianity. The apparitions took place the same year as the Russian Revolution.
The Pope believes the Madonna (news - web sites) of Fatima saved his life on May 13, 1981, when Turkish gunman Mehmet Ali Agca nearly killed him in St Peter's Square. The shooting took place on one of the anniversaries of the 1917 apparitions.
In a sign of gratitude a year after the assassination attempt, the Pope had one of the 9mm bullets which Agca fired at him placed in the crown of the statue at Fatima.
"One hand fired the bullet and another guided it," the Pope once said of Agca's attempt to kill him.
Dos Santos was said by believers to be the main recipient of prophecies from the Virgin about key 20th century events.
The first two parts of the prophecies were known for decades. The first saw a vision of hell, the second predicted the outbreak of World War II.
But it was the third part, the so-called third secret of Fatima, which kept the world intrigued for more than 80 years.
LAST SECRET REVEALED
The Vatican revealed its interpretation of the vision during the Pope's visit to Fatima in May 2000 on the anniversary of the assassination attempt. One of her last public appearances was with the Pope at Fatima.
Dos Santos's recollection of the third part of the visions, which she wrote down in 1944, saw "a bishop dressed in white (and) we had the impression that it was the Holy Father."
As the vision continued, the children say the Pope reaching the top of a mountain where "he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him."
Before the Vatican unveiled the vision, papal envoys visited Dos Santos in her cloistered convent to seek her opinion of the Vatican's interpretation and her permission to reveal it.
"She repeated her conviction that the vision of Fatima concerns above all the struggle of atheistic communism against the Church and against Christians, and describes the terrible sufferings of the victims of the faith in 20th century," a Vatican document said in 2000.
The document went on to say: "When asked: 'Is the principal figure in the vision the Pope?' Sister Lucia replied at once that it was.
Dos Santos was born the youngest of seven children in a peasant family in Aljustrel, a village in central Portugal.
The events at Fatima unfolded against a backdrop of religious persecution under anti-clerical factions that ruled Portugal after the overthrow of the monarchy in 1910.
In 1916 she experienced her first vision, when an angel appeared to the children, she wrote in her memoirs.
On May 13, 1917, the Virgin Mary appeared to her and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marta on an oak tree. On her last appearance before an estimated 50,000 onlookers, witnesses claim to have experienced a 15-minute spectacle of bright lights and rainbow colors.
In her memoirs, dos Santos said the Virgin Mary appeared to the children six times in 1917. Jacinta and Francisco died in the influenza pandemic in 1919 and 1920.
The two were beatified, the last step to sainthood, by Pope John Paul during his Fatima visit in 2000.
One of her last visitors was actor Mel Gibson, director of the 2004 movie "The Passion of The Christ." He met her at the convent in July 2004 and gave her a DVD of his movie.
2005-02-14 08:22 | User Profile
For the record, I am a Fatima sceptic.
This is a private revelation and not binding on the individual conscience, so Catholics are free to accept or reject it.
I have serious doubts about the whole thing.
Walter
2005-02-14 13:15 | User Profile
Mary is dead. That is not Mary that is appearing.
There are no such things as ghosts.
Even if you think Mary is alive, the Torah (Jesus) says:
[size=3][color=#008080][size=1][color=black]Lev 20:27[/color][/size][/color][/size][size=1][color=black] "'A man or a woman that is a [color=darkred]medium[/color], or is a wizard[/color][color=black], shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them.'"[/color][/size][size=3] [/size] [size=1][/size] [size=1][/size]
2005-02-14 14:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ]Mary is dead. [/QUOTE]
No, Mary is alive.
As are all the saints who died in the Faith.
2005-02-18 18:36 | User Profile
What Scripture do you use for that?
2005-02-18 19:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ]What Scripture do you use for that?[/QUOTE]
Scripturesez:
FYI, Walter and I are Roman Catholic. That means we rely on holy oral Tradition, as well as the Bible, as sources of belief. Oral Tradition dates back to Christ and the apostles, of which the Bible is essentially the portion thereof that was written down. Of course, we also use a different version of the Bible, which includes references to tradition in books that Protestants rejected-- James, for instance--and which number 6 or 7. You might think of Tradition and the Bible as two oars with which the Church guides itself through time.
As regards Mary, most of what we know of her comes from Tradition rather than the Bible, which says little about her.
By the way, the two times the Church has invoked its infallability have both concerned Mary, specifically, her Immaculate Conception and her Assumption, body and soul, into heaven.
Hope this helps.
2005-02-18 19:32 | User Profile
So you have no Scripture but some other authority?
I direct you to the following about contacting the spirit world, other than Jesus:
[list=1] [] [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=19&verse=31&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]Leviticus 19:31[/color][/url] " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=19&verse=30&end_verse=32&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]Leviticus 19:30-32[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]Leviticus 19[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [] [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=20&verse=6&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]Leviticus 20:6[/color][/url] " 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people. [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=20&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]Leviticus 20:5-7[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=20&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]Leviticus 20[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=28&verse=3&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]1 Samuel 28:3[/color][/url] Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land. [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=28&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]1 Samuel 28:2-4[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=28&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]1 Samuel 28[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=28&verse=9&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]1 Samuel 28:9[/color][/url] But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?" [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=28&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]1 Samuel 28:8-10[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=28&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]1 Samuel 28[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=21&verse=6&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]2 Kings 21:6[/color][/url] He sacrificed his own son in [ Or He made his own son pass through ] the fire, practiced sorcery and divination, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD , provoking him to anger. [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=21&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]2 Kings 21:5-7[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=21&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]2 Kings 21[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=23&verse=24&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]2 Kings 23:24[/color][/url] Furthermore, Josiah got rid of the mediums and spiritists, the household gods, the idols and all the other detestable things seen in Judah and Jerusalem. This he did to fulfill the requirements of the law written in the book that Hilkiah the priest had discovered in the temple of the LORD . [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=23&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]2 Kings 23:23-25[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=23&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]2 Kings 23[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=14&chapter=33&verse=6&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]2 Chronicles 33:6[/color][/url] He sacrificed his sons in [ Or He made his sons pass through ] the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD , provoking him to anger. [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=14&chapter=33&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]2 Chronicles 33:5-7[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=14&chapter=33&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]2 Chronicles 33[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=8&verse=19&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]Isaiah 8:19[/color][/url] When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=8&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]Isaiah 8:18-20[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=8&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]Isaiah 8[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=19&verse=3&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]Isaiah 19:3[/color][/url] The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists. [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=19&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&context=context"][color=#0000ff]Isaiah 19:2-4[/color][/url] (in Context) [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter"][color=#0000ff]Isaiah 19[/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=27&verse=9&version=31&context=verse"][color=#0000ff]Jeremiah 27:9[/color][/url] So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, 'You will not serve the king of Babylon.' [/list]
2005-02-18 20:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ]So you have no Scripture but some other authority? [/QUOTE]
Correct. Tradition is also authority in the Catholic Church. Sola Scriptura is a Protestant idea which the Church rejects.
As to "mediums," you're quite right to condemn them, as the Catholic Church has. As I understand it, mediums are [B]humans[/B] who claim the power to summon spirits. Mary made no such claim. Her apparitions at Fatima, if authentic, are [B]God's[/B] will, to which she conforms herself. Nor were the children at Fatima mediums, but simply people doing what they were told as revealed by God through Mary.
The Church refers to Mary as co-redemptress, or co-mediatrix, to indicate her role participating in Christ's mission. Thus, a man and woman achieved redemption, just as a man and woman (Adam and Eve) caused the fall.
2005-02-18 20:08 | User Profile
The last paragraph in that news article, about Mel Gibson being one or her last visitors and giving her a copy of "The Passion", made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. It's amazing how all these things tie together, yet we only get glimpses into how they might play out. It is not a coincidence that the 25 guys with word processors who instigated the war against Iraq, who are now instigating wars against Syria and Iran, and who are working to subvert Christian powers such as Russia, are the very same people exposed by PJB last year as the "enemies" of the Passion in TAC ("The Passion and Its Enemies", TAC, 04/26/03, p. 13), e.g., Charles Krauthammer, Bill Safire, Mona Charen, et al.
Last month there was a program on PAX paid for Fatima.org. The people associated with this group are far-right traditionalist Catholics (Bob Sungenis, Gerry Matatics, Chris Ferarra, et al.). Karl Keating's Catholic Answers, EWTN, and other mainstream conservative Catholic groups have openly condemned Sungenis and his crowd, not for any theological disputes, but because Sungenis among others had the nerve to raise questions about Israel and the role and actions of Jews in Western society, particularly the U.S. Both Keating and Art Sippo have openly condemned Sungenis for his raising of the Israel/Jewish question. There was a time when in order to be labeled anti-Semitic one would have to openly criticize Israel. Now one merely has to raise questions to get that label.
2005-02-18 21:43 | User Profile
There is no authority in scripture for what you are saying.
You are in error.
It is not protestant it is Scirptural. It is a spiritual problem.
2005-02-18 22:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ]There is no authority in scripture for what you are saying.
You are in error.
It is not protestant it is Scirptural. It is a spiritual problem.[/QUOTE]
Scrip? as you know I have no religion but I think that any "authority" from those days should only be someone from those days and I don't think that there is anyone alive now.
Any "authority" that we have now days (in religion) if for what they have read according to what others wrote who did not even experienced it.
I would say that 70% of the truth from The Bible is missing and it was written only to the benefit of those controling religion at the time.
2005-02-18 22:42 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ]There is no authority in scripture for what you are saying.
You are in error.
It is not protestant it is Scirptural. It is a spiritual problem.[/QUOTE]
Scrip:
You seem like a sincere man (I presume man). Let me say, it depends on which version of Scripture you accept. In my bible (Douay Rheims) it starts at II Thess. 2,14, wherein believers are told to follow both that which is written and that which is traditional and taught by word. Similar statements are made elsewhere, but in books the Protestants later disputed. I don't have them handy but maybe Walter or someone else can provide more citations.
Sincere regards, B
2005-02-18 22:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster]Scrip:
You seem like a sincere man (I presume man). B[/QUOTE]
I believe Scrip is a woman.
2005-02-19 02:04 | User Profile
The Miracle at Fatima is a true miracle. [url]http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmFind.exe?query=fatima&CFGNAME=MssFindEN.cfg&en=x&x=21&y=7[/url]
2005-02-19 02:08 | User Profile
you are guilty of Sin. You must take this on Faith and on the testimony of of fellow souls... there were no VHS tapes then.
Through the strict judgement of the Church, it is a Miracle.
There was a Real Presence.
2005-02-21 06:34 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ]What Scripture do you use for that?[/QUOTE]
Christ promised His followers eternal life. Do you deny that?
But in any event, Scripture not only testifies to Mary's salvation by virture of her being a Christian, but rather also to the fact that she holds the most exalted place that any creature holds in heaven:
[QUOTE]Revelation 12 1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. [/QUOTE]
Mary was crowned Queen of the Universe.
So Scripture sez.
2005-02-21 06:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Exelsis_Deo]you are guilty of Sin. You must take this on Faith and on the testimony of of fellow souls... there were no VHS tapes then.
Through the strict judgement of the Church, it is a Miracle.
There was a Real Presence.[/QUOTE]
That's not riight, ED.
This was a private revelation on not binding on the individual conscience.
I talked it over briefly with a priest acquaintance. He was somewhat surprised by my scepticism, but agreed that I need not subscribe to it.
From the Catechism:
[QUOTE]66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."[28] Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. [B]They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. [/B] It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. [/QUOTE]
In order to be saved I must be at least willling to accept all that is in the deposit of the faith. I need not accept a private revelation claimed by a bunch of little Port-a-gee kids.
The main reason I don't accept it is that none of it was written down until much later. Lucia wrote down her revelations in 1928, including the stuff about Russia. Note that's a decade after the Revolution and at the height of the backlash against it, which created an emotional atmosphere very receptive to exactly this sort of thing. People wanted to hear it so badly, and she gave them what they wanted.
While it was written down under pain of some dreadful oath, that just means in the end we're taking her word for it. And I don't think she was intentionally lying. She was a little kid when she and her friends made up the story and like all kids they rearranged their memories to fit what the grown-ups wanted to hear. She had bought into her own line by that time. And it seems reasonable to assume that she got an occasional subtle nudge from a clergy that was increasingly terrified (and not without good reason) of a revolution in the Iberian penninsula.
It's all just too neat for my mind.
I don't doubt that many good people believe it. But I'm waaaaay too much of a sceptic to buy it.
2005-02-21 15:12 | User Profile
We are not following the traditions that Paul speaks of. See Acts 15. When you are reading the New Covenant remember the vast majority of people in the First Century had nothing to read or could not read, but they had to depend upon hearing the Word and what was said in the Synagogue. They had no New Covenant Scriptures. All the Scriptures and traditions they speak are found in the Old Covenant, The Torah, The Phrophets and The Writings. The New Covenant are letters written about the Good News of the Arrival of the Messaiah, The Gospels, with miracles and healings. When traditions are said, the writers are referring to the First Century understanding, not the modern day "church" understanding.
Notice whats happening in Acts. 15. We know by this time, Jesus told us that the traditions and customs of the day were oral and were fences around the Law of Moses, burdensome over and above what was said.
Example: It was common thought that one could divorce a wife for any reason, but Jesus said, divorce was given because of the hardness of hearts, but divorce your wife only on the matter of unfaithfullnes. Jesus gave a higher standard of the Torah.
Example: Can't heal on a Sabbath Day, (Saturday) yet folks would run and pull their sheep out of a ditch, and animals even could not work on that day. See? When the Lord pointed this out, these so called teachers of the law did not like it.
In Acts 15 we see people coming into the assembly with Paul insisting that folks become circumcised to get saved. But Jesus was the Savior by FAITH and not by the works (laboring to put fences around the law so you wont break it) because Abraham had Faith God and then he became Circumcised.
And understand that in Acts Chapter 15 we have Jewish men who are Torah Observant dealing with gentiles (the goy who are without the Torah) being converted. And it is difficult for them to understand, because remember now, that books were nonexisistant, but only heavy scrolls that were expensesive becuase they were painstakingly written, so these people (gentiles) did not know what the word said, they had never been in a synagogue for teaching and did not know the word.
Paul and followers decided that in order to make things simple for the teachers (Rabbis) that were outside the land of Israel, where there were no or few synagogues established to teach the very basics of the Law, Called Noahide laws for the time being. But when the sysagogues were established in those lands, the gentiles were given the full instruction. Because Jesus was the only access to the Torah and we know that the the Torah became not just written on stone tablets, but on the hearts and minds of men when they beleived in Jesus as God, their Savior and mediator alone, and His Spirit will fill them. So when they heard the scriptures regarding don't eat blood for example, they could ask Jesus who lives within them what to do. Because Jesus if the Law made flesh.
So if they were outside the land of Israel and they or us for that matter, have no Temple to do sacrifices, then they would celebrate the Feasts and Fesivals with the Sacrifice of Praise, like Paul says. And Paul even speaks about keeping the Festival of Unleavend Bread (Passover) for example, which is not a one day thing, but eight days.
But we read poor translations of the Scriptures and have no idea what is going on.
We listen to priests and pastors and do no read the word for ourselves.
There is nothing in the Scriptures that say we are to do pagan festivals. Easter Christmas Mardi Gras Valentines Day Halloween, Solstice Day etc. But tells us not to have anything to do witih idols.
So when you are reading about tradtions in Thessolonans you are talking about the Jewish Traditions as instructed by God Himself Jesus, who spoke them to Moses who gave them to you.
By the way, again I tell you there is no scripture saying Miriam was raised from the dead or that she is a mediator. Do not talk to the dead.
It has nothing to do with righteousness I never said that but you are being deceived into misreading.
This is a spirit of balaam that you have influencing you.
Remember our fight is not with flesh and blood but with spiritual wickedness in high places.
Jesus is God and God does not change.
[QUOTE=Buster]Scrip:
You seem like a sincere man (I presume man). Let me say, it depends on which version of Scripture you accept. In my bible (Douay Rheims) it starts at II Thess. 2,14, wherein believers are told to follow both that which is written and that which is traditional and taught by word. Similar statements are made elsewhere, but in books the Protestants later disputed. I don't have them handy but maybe Walter or someone else can provide more citations.
Sincere regards, B[/QUOTE]
2005-02-21 16:42 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ]Example: It was common thought that one could divorce a wife for any reason, but Jesus said, divorce was given because of the hardness of hearts, but divorce your wife only on the matter of unfaithfullnes. Jesus gave a higher standard of the Torah. [/QUOTE]
I'm not following you here.
Do you believe that Christians must be circumscised?
Are Christians supposed to slaughter animals in a Temple?
Smear lamb's blood on their door posts?
2005-02-21 17:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]I'm not following you here.
Do you believe that Christians must be circumscised?
Are Christians supposed to slaughter animals in a Temple?
Smear lamb's blood on their door posts?[/QUOTE]
Walter, the following link may help you understand where this cultist is coming from:
[url]http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/jc2.html[/url]
Follow some of the links at the bottom. Seems as though some of this is an offshoot of the Seventh-Day Adventists a la Koresh. Some of the more sinister aspects may well be your run of the mill, demonic jewish subversion.
2005-02-23 02:57 | User Profile
Originally Posted by Walter Yannis* I'm not following you here.
Do you believe that Christians must be circumscised?
Are Christians supposed to slaughter animals in a Temple?
Smear lamb's blood on their door posts?* Circumcision
Paul was addressing the issue of new believers, gentiles or the goy, those from the 70 nations who knew nothing or little about the what the Scriptures said. The Scriptures in this context is the Old Testament**, as the New Testament are Letters written about the events in the first century.
In Acts Chapter 15 we see the Apostles are teaching newly believing gentiles (the Goy or nations) who are now worshiping with the Nazarenes on the Sabbath Day (nothing has changed about that) So at first it was decided to offer the following portion of the Torah commands: (please note Idols and food laws here, The Apostles are teaching clean and unclean. The elect who have the knowledge of the Torah and the Messiah Rev 14:12. )
[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&verse=20&version=31&context=verse"][u][color=#0000ff]Acts 15:20[/u][/color][/url] Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&verse=29&version=31&context=verse"][u][color=#0000ff]Acts 15:29[/u][/color][/url] You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=21&verse=25&version=31&context=verse"][u][color=#0000ff]Acts 21:25[/u][/color][/url] As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
Does this not make you question why many Christians are not doing these things now? If these food laws were to be tossed away by fulfillment of the law by Yeshua, are these Apostles stupid? Rebels?
You see when one says Yeshua Jesus fulfilled the Torah, that does not mean the Torah was done away with. But we were now given the Torah written on our hearts and Jesus is the mediator and the instructor to tell you how to keep the Torah. There is no scripture doing away with food laws, or blood laws, or sexual immorality, or idols or images. and so on.
The Torah is not bondage it is freedom. If you have said otherwise you state that God is a bondage maker. Do you see that canââ¬â¢t be true, as Jesus is the Torah giver on Mt Sinai?
Heb 8:8 clearly states there was nothing wrong with the Torah but with the people.
The people were doing things wrong, because they did not want to hear from God, so they heard from Moses and his successors who put fences around the Law, extra works so no one would break the first law. Such as do not cook a kid in its mothers milk (referring to pagan child sacrifice) but people started not eating cheese on their hamburgers. Get it? A big fence.
And that is Judiaizing. Making you do fences or doing works of the law.
On to circumscion:
Think about it, if you are a new believer, what is the last thing you want to hear? Certainly not cutting yourself!
But Paul had a more serious reason, and he tells us in Scripture, that we need to have faith in God, because Abraham first believed God and then followed the command to be circumcised. In other words, the faith that Jesus is your savior is what saves you, because it was a gift to you. If you get circumcised in order to work the Torah to save you, that means you make God a debtor to you and your wage for cutting yourself is Salvation. That is the works of the Law.
Again, if you do the commands of the Torah, tithing, eating, washing your hands, with an eye to getting the blessing, salvation, prosperity and so on, you working the law, but work means you get wages But God did not want your works but your obedience. That your want to will want to. Read it carefully, that your want to will want to. Not have to. That is what is meant by the Judaizers, those who wanted people to work the Torah, not only the plain written script, but all the man made fences around the Law, and really if you read the New Testament in this light, you will see Jesus again and again tell them they have a fine way of putting their traditions and their love or fear of men first before doing the right thing.
Should one be circumcised today, other than health reasons? Well unless you are living in the land and are about to go up to the Temple for the Feast of Tabernacles at the Temple:
[url="/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&verse=16&version=31&context=verse"][/url] Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. [url="/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&verse=15&end_verse=17&version=31&context=context"][u][color=#0000ff]Zechariah 14:15-17
[/u][/color]/url [url="/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter"][u][color=#0000ff]Zechariah 14[/u][/color][/url] (Whole Chapter) [url="/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&verse=18&version=31&context=verse"][u][color=#0000ff]Zechariah 14:18[/u][/color][/url] If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD [ Or part, then the LORD ] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
So again confirm everything by Scripture and asking Yeshua.
**Sacrifices and Lamb' Blood.
**One cannot sacrifice animals as now there is no Temple that is Holy and clean as the Muslims sit there.
Can't put lamb blood on doorposts, as there is not Temple to sacrifice a Lamb.
One does not eat Lamb at Passover, but only has a shank bone as a reminder, because there is no Temple. No Levitical priesthood either.
Since Jesus Yeshua is the one and only mediator of the new covenant, then ask Him what you should do.
Gods word does not change.
2005-03-02 02:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ]And that is Judiaizing. Making you do fences or doing works of the law. [/QUOTE]
I think Saint John Chrysostom pretty much explained what Judaizing is about.
2005-03-02 05:02 | User Profile
[size=1]I don't care what some man said. I am telling you what the Scipture says[/size] [size=1][/size] [size=1]Jesus did not do away with any command. He is the Commands. [/size] [size=1]John 1:1[/size] [size=1][/size] [size=1]He came to write the Torah on your heart and will instruct you on how to keep the commands correctly as they apply to you.[/size] [size=1][/size] [size=1]How is it that the church that began in the wilderness by God, has been changed by the church fathers? No one had authority to change the words written in the Bible.[/size] [size=1][/size] [size=1]The Sabbath Day is still Saturday and The Feasts will be kept.[/size] [size=1][/size] [size=1]It is Written:[/size] [size=1]24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD . Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel! [/size] [size=1] [/size][size=1]The real priests or teachers are to teach clean and unclean:[/size]
[size=1]Ezekial 44[/size] [size=1]23 They are to teach my people the difference between the holy and the common and show them how to distinguish between the unclean and the clean. [/size] [size=1]Clean and unclean, just like in Leviticus etc.[/size]
[size=1][/size]
[size=1]We will be going to the Feast of Tabernacles when the Temple is restored:[/size]
[size=1]Zechariah 14[/size]
[size=1]16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. [/size]
[size=1]And Jesus says the gentiles will realize the lies of their fathers, the teaching against the Law:[/size]
[size=1]Jerimiah 16:[/size]
[size=1]19O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. [/size]
[size=1]20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods? [/size][size=1] [/size]
[size=1]21Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD.[/size]
Choose this day whom you will serve, God or the teachings of men and demons (elementals or of the world)
[size=2]
[/size]
2005-03-02 10:45 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ][size=1]I don't care what some man said. I am telling you what the Scipture says[/size] [size=1][/size] [/QUOTE]
No, you're only telling us what YOU think it says. To accept your version demands that we regard all the Christian theologians down through history as idiots who didn't know what they were doing. Sorry, that dog don't hunt.
Sometimes I think the Strong's Concordance is a book that should have never been written.
2005-03-03 23:26 | User Profile
I have not said anyone is an idiot. But I am telling you what Scripture Says.
You think that the Scriptures are the New Testament, that is what Paul is talking about. That is incorrect. He is talking about the old testament, the Tanak, the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, wihich is for teaching and instruction.
Jesus is God and He is the Goal of the Law or the Torah.
Not the end of it.
Jesus states not one jot or tittle of the law is removed. The commands are unchanged.
Sabbath is still Saturday, Passover and so on must be kept. by all.
2005-03-09 11:02 | User Profile
I just heard that Mel Gibson bought the rights to a fictionalized account of the third secret of Fatima called [URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595339573/qid=1110365971/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-7127565-3780852]Stealing from Angels[/URL].
Maybe this will be Mr. Gibson's next project.
2005-03-10 00:03 | User Profile
From Scripture: Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
I think Mel does not understand we should no be making images as in the above passages.
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]I just heard that Mel Gibson bought the rights to a fictionalized account of the third secret of Fatima called [url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595339573/qid=1110365971/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-7127565-3780852"]Stealing from Angels[/url].
Maybe this will be Mr. Gibson's next project.[/QUOTE]
2005-03-13 23:25 | User Profile
One of her last visitors was actor Mel Gibson, director of the 2004 movie "The Passion of The Christ." He met her at the convent in July 2004 and gave her a DVD of his movie.
How many Popes--if any--have won the Seat of St. Peter by the permitted route of "Popular Acclaim" rather than by an election of the Cardinals?
Certainly Mel would be a better leader of the Church than the likes of Lustiger...
2005-03-13 23:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SCRIPTURESEZ] I think Mel does not understand we should no be making images as in the above passages.[/QUOTE] First Judaizing, and now Iconoclasm. You've got the full range of heresy covered, Sez. What's next, Arianism?
2005-03-14 00:02 | User Profile
Iconoclasts were the great heroes of the Byzantine history - without the reforms of the great emperor Leo the Isaurian, Muslims would have overrun Constantinople.
The Byzantine common morality dropped significantly after the victory of icon-worshippers, led by the scheming empress Irene.
Petr
2005-03-14 13:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Iconoclasts were the great heroes of the Byzantine history - without the reforms of the great emperor Leo the Isaurian, Muslims would have overrun Constantinople.
The Byzantine common morality dropped significantly after the victory of icon-worshippers, led by the scheming empress Irene.[/QUOTE] Leo did turn back the Muslims, and for that he deserves credit. I think it is false to say the Iconoclasts were 'the great heroes of Byzantine history', however. The Second Council of Nicea in 787 officially refuted Iconoclasm, meaning that it is heresy. This Council, by the way, was ecumenical, and is the last council considered so by both the Catholics and the Orthodox.