← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Stanley
Thread ID: 16514 | Posts: 36 | Started: 2005-01-30
2005-01-30 20:28 | User Profile
From [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/30/ixworld.html]Telegraph Newspaper Online[/url]
By Clare Chapman (Filed: 30/01/2005)
A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.
Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners – who must pay tax and employee health insurance – were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.
The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.
She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.
Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit. Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.
The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.
When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law. Job centres that refuse to penalise people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.
"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases. "The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."
Miss Garweg said that women who had worked in call centres had been offered jobs on telephone sex lines. At one job centre in the city of Gotha, a 23-year-old woman was told that she had to attend an interview as a "nude model", and should report back on the meeting. Employers in the sex industry can also advertise in job centres, a move that came into force this month. A job centre that refuses to accept the advertisement can be sued.
Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.
"Why shouldn't I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?" said Miss Ulyanova.
Ulrich Kueperkoch wanted to open a brothel in Goerlitz, in former East Germany, but his local job centre withdrew his advertisement for 12 prostitutes, saying it would be impossible to find them.
Mr Kueperkoch said that he was confident of demand for a brothel in the area and planned to take a claim for compensation to the highest court. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to combat trafficking in women and cut links to organised crime.
Miss Garweg believes that pressure on job centres to meet employment targets will soon result in them using their powers to cut the benefits of women who refuse jobs providing sexual services.
"They are already prepared to push women into jobs related to sexual services, but which don't count as prostitution,'' she said.
"Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."
There may be pragmatic reasons for legalizing prostitution, but this just staggers me. What used to be considered a problem, is now considered a solution.
2005-01-30 21:37 | User Profile
I'm staggered by this:
[QUOTE]Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago...[/QUOTE]
Hell, unless the law was changed it was legal as late as 1990.
[QUOTE]"Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."[/QUOTE]
Morality aside this is crazy as hell. There are still diseases and the kinky, sadistic customers they may have to deal with.
"Ulyanova". I wonder...
2005-01-30 22:24 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Stanley]"Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."
There are those that argue here there's no real moral difference between America and heathen Europe, re:
[URL=http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showpost.php?p=98803&postcount=28]Europe Vs. America[/URL]
This is why its so hard when we try to compare Europe and American moral standards. Can you imagine what Europeans would say if we did the same thing for people here on welfare? (A high percentage of course Black and Mexican?) They'd say we're reinstituting mass slavery and cultural genocide. There they're just being "sophisticated".
2005-01-30 22:41 | User Profile
By its actions, the Government is forcing women to abandon their inhibitions and treat prostitution as just another career choice. They are destroying whatever is left of shame or modesty in their culture. They'll end up as something out of a Robert Heinlein novel, until the Muslims take over. Of course, we're not that far behind them -- you don't have to submit to a total stranger feeling your genitals, you just can't board an airplane.
This is the quarrel I have with libertarians. The state may not be able to stamp out vice, but it should encourage virtue. And yet, on libertarian grounds, this is acceptable: better a whore than a parasite. I can't post a link because the site is down again, but check out the discussion at Liberty Forum.
2005-01-30 23:07 | User Profile
Okie, I didn't see your post until after I had made my first reply.
Is there that big a difference between Europe and America? We're both going down the same road, they're just a little further ahead. I think of how much things have changed since I was a boy (I'm 47.)
The family is dying in Europe, and Europe is dying with it. America is very sick.
2005-01-30 23:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Stanley]This is the quarrel I have with libertarians. The state may not be able to stamp out vice, but it should encourage virtue. And yet, on libertarian grounds, this is acceptable: better a whore than a parasite. I can't post a link because the site is down again, but check out the discussion at Liberty Forum.[/QUOTE]Typical enlightening LF thread.
[URL=http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_culture&Number=293326747&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1#Post293326747]Liberty Forum[/URL]
2005-01-31 00:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Mr Kueperkoch said that he was confident of demand for a brothel in the area and planned to take a claim for compensation to the highest court. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to combat trafficking in women and cut links to organised crime.[/QUOTE]
This is the crazy part, thinking that legalizing a vice would help fight it? The only thing that has happened is that organized crime is moving into trafficking in native women. Don't think for a monent that these criminals wouldn't use strong-armed tactics to keep these women in submission. It may be cheaper to work a home-grown girl because they don't have the overhead costs of smuggling her in.
I wonder what would happen if the agencies sent the names of unemployed Muslim women? No doubt there are many on the dole.
Yes, Sertorious, the names in the article are Russians or Russian jews.
And Stanley, this is also a good reason that I don't support libertarianism. Maybe the state can't completely stamp out a vice, but a vice needs to be defined and made illegal with transgressions punished and enforced. If there are no laws, then virtures and vices are open to personal interpretation.
2005-01-31 01:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Stanley] "Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."[/QUOTE] This is why I have absolutely no patience with the old 'but you're trying to legislate morality' argument of the libertarians and the leftists. All law legislates morality. The only question is whose morality it will be.
2005-01-31 01:55 | User Profile
skemper and Quantrill,
This is just sick and evil!
Quantrill is most Right! [QUOTE]This is why I have absolutely no patience with the old 'but you're trying to legislate morality' argument of the libertarians and the leftists. All law legislates morality. The only question is whose morality it will be.[/QUOTE]
I want to see every damned marxist haned from an Oak tree for this kind of stuff!
2005-01-31 02:51 | User Profile
65% of all brothels are run by Jews in Europe and the biggest one which is in England is controlled by a Jewish woman who even has a royal tittle.
I also read a while back that the biggest XXXXXXXX sites in the WWW in the US belongs also to Jews.
2005-01-31 06:30 | User Profile
The woman should take the brothel job and then sue for sexual harassment.
2005-01-31 06:35 | User Profile
This smells like sensationalist journalism, especially coming from an anti-continental paper like the Telegraph.
I'm going to wait and see how this one pans out. Ten to one it's an urban legend, or an exaggeration based on hypothetical interpretations of ambiguous laws.
Can you imagine if a woman was actually forced into prostitution by the state against her will? A politician who opposed it could get elected on that issue alone.
2005-01-31 12:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE]This smells like sensationalist journalism, especially coming from an anti-continental paper like the Telegraph.
I'm going to wait and see how this one pans out. [/QUOTE]
What Roddy said. There is something awfully fishy about this story. Almost Murdochian. Not saying it isn't or can't be true, but I can't quite buy this as is.
[QUOTE]This is why I have absolutely no patience with the old 'but you're trying to legislate morality' argument of the libertarians and the leftists. All law legislates morality. The only question is whose morality it will be.[/QUOTE]
Strongly disagree with your logic Quantrill. Or, rather, its focus. Prostitution is like homosexuality in that both have been around almost as long as people have, and a certain amount of government supervision makes sense, insofar as public health issues are concerned. The 'morality' truly being legislated here stems from this passage:
[QUOTE]Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.[/QUOTE]
....which reads, to me at least, as [I]since our first duty is to import and maintain a dirt-cheap Third world labor pool, we can make up the ensuing budget shortfall by legally compelling all white Germans into tax slavery [/I] - even if we hafta push women into brothels to hit our minimum target number.
Prostitution isn't new, and decriminalized prostitution isn't new. Government-encouraged prostitution [B]is [/B] new, however. As shiny and mint-condition as the West's New Religion of burning civilization at the pyre to placate the angry gods of Replacement Level New Births.
2005-01-31 12:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE=il ragno] Strongly disagree with your logic Quantrill. Or, rather, its focus. Prostitution is like homosexuality in that both have been around almost as long as people have, and a certain amount of government supervision makes sense, insofar as public health issues are concerned. The 'morality' truly being legislated here stems from this passage:
....which reads, to me at least, as since our first duty is to import and maintain a dirt-cheap Third world labor pool, we can make up the ensuing budget shortfall by legally compelling all white Germans into tax slavery * - even if we hafta push women into brothels to hit our minimum target number. But as long as prostitution was still considered beyond the pale, there would be little chance of anyone being forced into it to appease the gods of the marketplace. Changing the law of a country eventually changes the morality of a country, and vice versa. I do agree with you, however, that the legalization of prostitution is not the only place where law touches morality in this case. Modern Western society has decided that economic progress sits atop its pantheon of values, and all else must be swept aside. [QUOTE=il ragno] Prostitution isn't new, and decriminalized prostitution isn't new. Government-encouraged prostitution *is ** new, however. As shiny and mint-condition as the West's New Religion of burning civilization at the pyre to placate the angry gods of Replacement Level New Births.[/QUOTE]Prostitution (standard, decriminalized, or government-encouraged) has been forbidden in every Christian society that has ever existed, so in that sense, yes, this is new.
2005-01-31 15:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Stanley]Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.
"Why shouldn't I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?" said Miss Ulyanova.[/QUOTE]
I just can't imagine why Hitler and his crowd thought Auschwitz and Dachau were a better idea than having people like "Miss Ulyanova" running around loose....
In any event, I suspect this is one of those things that will get corrected, now that it is brought to the attention of the German citizenry. God, I hope so!
2005-01-31 15:17 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Stanley]This is the quarrel I have with libertarians. The state may not be able to stamp out vice, but it should encourage virtue. And yet, on libertarian grounds, this is acceptable: better a whore than a parasite. I can't post a link because the site is down again, but check out the discussion at Liberty Forum.[/QUOTE]
One wonders how many of these libertarian degenerates would be singing a different tune if it were their daughter being forced into whoredom. For that matter, there must be male brothels to service the sexual desires if "gay" men, right? And I see no reason that a man would have to be homosexual himself to work at such a place, right? Its just a job, after all. Unemployed truck driver? Start sucking....
2005-01-31 15:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]All law legislates morality. The only question is whose morality it will be.[/QUOTE]
**BINGO![/B]
2005-01-31 15:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]I just can't imagine why Hitler and his crowd thought Auschwitz and Dachau were a better idea than having people like "Miss Ulyanova" running around loose....[/QUOTE]
But Kevin, didn't you know that everything Hitler and the Nazis stood for was pure eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeviiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!
Surely Hitler & Co. would've eventually seen the glories of the Third Worldization of the Reich because the Folk would've wanted it so!!
In all seriousness, I remember being in Hamburg about 7 years ago, on the Reeperbahn, and my buddy and I visited a few strip joints. ALL THE GIRLS were Eastern European or Russian. Taking a walk through the Herbertstrasse for a little "window shopping", it appeared from their accents that the "merchandise" was imported too. No, neither my friend nor I indulged, I swear. :wallbash:
Before passing judgement on 'decadent' Europe from 'pious' America, it's necessary to study the differences in such things as divorce rates, sexual crimes, violent crime, domestic abuse, pedophilia, etc, between 'decadent' Europe and 'pious' America. I think many would be surprised at the findings.... it's funny because American culture is based entirely on SEX, from clothing, to makeup, to nightlife, TV, porn, celebrity worship, cars, beer, football, advertising, but somehow 'pious' America is simply shocked that prostitution is legal in 'decadent' Europe!! It's a bizzaro world, the 'Kwa, I'll tell ya.
Look around, American women are already prostitutes and don't even know it.
2005-01-31 17:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]There are those that argue here there's no real moral difference between America and heathen Europe,[/QUOTE] Unlike Petr and yourself who claim America is morally superior to Western Europe based on America's (alleged) greater adherence to Christianity. I still say- prove it. Certainly the sensationalist anecdote which opened this thread does not.
2005-01-31 18:33 | User Profile
If the story turns out to be phony, I will eat crow.
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]One wonders how many of these libertarian degenerates would be singing a different tune if it were their daughter being forced into whoredom.[/QUOTE]There certainly is a libertine element among both the libertarians and the left, who would say, "If she likes doing it, it's not a problem." Some of them may actually mean it.
Then again, with libertarians like Joseph Sobran and Nicholas Strakon, the question becomes "How much should the state enforce cultural and moral standards?" I am no longer a libertarian, but I don't have an answer to that question.
2005-01-31 19:01 | User Profile
[QUOTE=na Gaeil is gile]Unlike Petr and yourself who claim America is morally superior to Western Europe based on America's (alleged) greater adherence to Christianity. I still say- prove it. Certainly the sensationalist anecdote which opened this thread does not.[/QUOTE]I'm not sure you even know personally and can define what morality is anyway. If you did I don't think you would be so uncertain about making moral distinctions.
2005-01-31 19:13 | User Profile
[QUOTE]There certainly is a libertine element among both the libertarians and the left, who would say, "If she likes doing it, it's not a problem." I am no longer a libertarian, but I don't have an answer to that question.[/QUOTE]
In much the same way one can no longer profitably be dogmatically 'right' or 'left', 'liberal' or 'conservative' but cobble together something workable from pieces of all of them, the same applies to 'libertarian' and 'authoritarian', if not 'totalitarian'. We as whites have never been in this situation: it's unprecedented. If adherence to an ideology can lead us out of this - and what else can? - it must by necessity be stitched together from the corpses of old, now-untenable systems of ethics and politics like a Frankenstein's monster. We've got to not [I]throw out [/I] the bathwater but [I]replace [/I] it, and keep the baby swaddled and healthy most of all.
Re this prostitution thing, you had prostitutes in Bible days. I don't see how you're going to legislate em out of existence, seeing how they're still illegal in most parts of the world, albeit winked at in some. Hey, I hate to tell tales out of school and be the bearer of bad tidings, but how would the old, the ugly and the defective ever experience physical love if not for whores? A 30-year-old with a serious harelip, or a widower ten years without his wife is entitled to a [I]little [/I] affection, I think.
Besides, let us not forget this quite interesting part of the story that has as yet gone uncommented on:
[QUOTE]Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to [B]combat trafficking in women and cut links to organised crime[/B].[/QUOTE]
Don't tell me that prostitution is a worse offense to morality than sex slaves kidnapped out of Munich and Berlin and shipped f.o.b. to Tel Aviv, if not put on the stroll in brothels and streetcorners closer to home! Over here, it's not uncommon for young girls to be raped/drugged/beaten into submission to enter the life. Possibly it works that way over there as well.
And, uh.....g'wan and take a guess at [U]which[/U] faction of [I]organized crime [/I] tends to dominate Eastern European sex trafficking....
2005-01-31 19:21 | User Profile
A pornographer's opinion, [B]itz[/B]. As if there would be no other ways to combat sex slavery than by legalizing prostitution.
Petr
2005-01-31 19:31 | User Profile
Petr I never said legalize prostitution, but not [I]all [/I] of us are willing to take cold showers for 70 years and think about St Bartholemew until the urge passes.
Oh by the way: about that "pornographer" business that you picked up from Fade. If you intend continuing to play Merlin to his Arthur and parroting his "insults" to me on this board, you should kindly give up the "[B]I'm [/B] no stooge!" act. It only takes a mouse-click to watch you at work, remember.
2005-01-31 20:08 | User Profile
Why should I care whether [B]you[/B] consider me to be "Fade's stooge" or not?
Petr
2005-01-31 20:10 | User Profile
Hey, I hate to tell tales out of school and be the bearer of bad tidings, I was in the Navy, Il Ragno> but how would the old, the ugly and the defective ever experience physical love if not for whores? A 30-year-old with a serious harelip, or a widower ten years without his wife is entitled to a little affection, I think. As I said at the beginning, there may be pragmatic reasons for legalizing prostitution. It apparently was legal in Victorian England; the bobbies just tried to keep the streetwalkers from making nuisances of themselves. Since there is no great movement afoot to legalize prostitution in the United States, it's an academic issue. But it is an example of something much more important.
I am appalled at the state of the culture today, as are the libertarians I mentioned. I don't believe in God, so I have to find a secular explanation for why what I think is wrong, is wrong.
The key issue is breakdown of the family and the decline in white birth rates. When I talk about virtue, I mean whatever cultural or legal sanctions that are necessary to solve those problems. At this point I'm not sure what they are.
2005-01-31 20:22 | User Profile
Frankly, I'm all for a little Applied Hypocrisy here.
[I]Keep [/I] it illegal insofar as maintaining the ideal of zero tolerance, and to keep keeping the heat on pimps and maffiya sex rings. But realize that people are only human, too - some more than others - and turn a selectively blind eye towards that which isn't blatantly taking place in Macy's window.
Applied Hypocrisy may be the only way to ever achieve consensus on race issues as well.
2005-02-03 16:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust] [QUOTE=na Gaeil is gile] Unlike Petr and yourself who claim America is morally superior to Western Europe based on America's (alleged) greater adherence to Christianity. I still say- prove it. Certainly the sensationalist anecdote which opened this thread does not.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure you even know personally and can define what morality is anyway. If you did I don't think you would be so uncertain about making moral distinctions.[/QUOTE] :yawn:
Personal and publicly expressed opinions on my understanding of ethics, and any ad hominem implied, donââ¬â¢t constitute proof of your Pharisitical claim to nation piety either.
2005-02-09 01:11 | User Profile
Well, it appears the story was a [url=http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/mail347.html#prostitute2]hoax[/url] after all. What kind of wine goes with crow?
2005-02-09 01:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Well, it appears the story was a hoax after all. What kind of wine goes with crow?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't know. I'm washing down my steak with a nice 12 year old single-malt.
[QUOTE]There is something awfully fishy about this story. Almost Murdochian. Not saying it isn't or can't be true, but I can't quite buy this as is. [/QUOTE]
2005-02-09 03:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=il ragno]I wouldn't know. I'm washing down my steak with a nice 12 year old single-malt.[/QUOTE]
Presumably a kosher malt. And I note you didn't say pork chops
But as you say, things have come to a pretty pass when we could even begin to believe this at all.
David Levinson Gosh, in the old days Trisk would never let me get away with quote like that :lol:
2005-02-09 03:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Presumably a kosher malt. And I note you didn't say pork chops [/QUOTE]
I wasn't aware the Jews had infiltrated any Scottish distilleries until now. Thanks for the heads-up, "Frederick William". What else do you hear from the other Elders of Zion?
And, assuming Lindstedt hasn't fed the cow infected deer fixin's first, [I]who [/I] would settle for a pork chop when they could eat a nice juicy steak instead?
2005-02-09 03:31 | User Profile
According to the following link, this story as reported was very inaccurate:
[url]http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp[/url]
2005-02-09 03:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Stanley]Well, it appears the story was a [url=http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/mail347.html#prostitute2]hoax[/url] after all. What kind of wine goes with crow?[/QUOTE]
How about this one? [url]http://indianwine.com/ftol/finewhitewine.htm[/url]
2005-02-09 19:58 | User Profile
This story does indeed seem to have turned out to be false, which is all to the good. However, so many people believed it because it is actually quite plausible. In fact, to quote from the urban legends site Robinder linked -- [font=Verdana][size=2]> [/size][/font][font=Trebuchet MS,Bookman Old Style,Arial][size=3][color=#000000][font=Verdana][size=2] The Tageszeitung merely presented the concept of brothel employment as a technical possibility under current law; it did not provide any actual cases of women losing their benefits over this issue. [/size][/font][size=2][font=Verdana] So, while this was a hoax, it appears that it is technically possible under the law as currently written. [/font][/size][/color][/size][/font]
2005-02-10 01:14 | User Profile
Let's hope this story is similarly false -
[url]http://www.newswatch.co.uk/headlines.asp?ref=HF99143Z[/url]
Widdecombe blasts lotto handout to prostitutes - 09/02/2005 17:20:00 17:20
A ã360,000 lottery award to a charity that advises prostitutes how best to stay in the industry was branded "quite mad" by former Home Office Minister Ann Widdecombe today.
The Big Lottery Fund has approved a ã359,291 grant over three years to the UK Network of Sex Work Projects, an umbrella organisation co-ordinating 53 smaller organisations and nine individuals across the country.
A disgusted Ms Widdecombe said: "I'm sure it's not what people have in mind when they buy a lottery ticket.
"We all thought when the lottery was set up that it would be used to fund things such as a little village hall or a small orchestra that could go on to great things if it only had the money. But it was never intended to be used in this particular way."
Asked whether she thought an advice service to prostitutes should be supported, Ms Widdecombe replied: "It depends what advice they give. If they are advising the workers to get out of the industry then that's one thing but if they are advising them on how to stay in the industry then it's quite mad - quite mad."
An estimated 80,000 women and men work in the UK's sex industry.