← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · grep14w
Thread ID: 16457 | Posts: 30 | Started: 2005-01-26
2005-01-26 17:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr] I must admit that I began to have doubts when Fade began to extol the virtues of FDR. He began to look like a rather typical "convert" who simply has to run to that other extreme rather than adopting a reasonable position of "golden medium".
This would be my impression of Fade as well.
"[I]Nouvelle Droite[/I]" has [B]not [/B] made a clear break with Nazism, and it has actually only intensified its anti-Christian aspects. This nicely illustrates the problems I am thinking of. Everyone sees everything and interprets everything through their own blinders.
In fact the ND has made a clean break with Nazism (if it ever had any "attachment" to NS at all), based on my own readings, if one assumes by ND that we are talking about representative people like Michael Walker or Alain de Benoist.
I think you are confusing "anti-Christian" or "anti-religious" with "Nazism". Nothing could be further from the truth.
Intensifying "anti-Christian aspects" has got nothing to do with "Nazism"; quite the contrary. Anyway, the ND has a lot of participants and collaborators, all over the political and religious spectrum; anti-Christian thought is typical of many leading ND figures, but not all, and it is hardly a central "article of faith" (to be ironic) of the ND.
And the reasons for its anti-Christian thought certainly aren't rooted in any kind of "Nazism".
As a person living in Europe, I can testify that Fade was not just making things up when he claimed that Americans (in general) are still less spiritually corrupted than Western Europeans. Depends what you mean by "spiritually corrupted". If you mean pious adherence to literalist religions, then America is certainly more "spiritually robust" than Western Europe - though it is, by that same criteria, "spiritually impoverished" in comparison to the middle east.
If you mean a rooted attachment to the more "spiritual" things that aren't related to literalist religion - tradition, order, manners, mysticism, history, language, culture, nature, art, literature, learning - all of which most definitely have a spiritual impact, than Europe is still quite spiritual, and America is a howling wasteland inhabited by spiritually stunted barbarians, in comparison.
Again, this is a matter of what kinds of "blinders" you wear when looking at the situation. What you consider important is going to color how you interpret the situation.
You American WNs better not idolize Europe too much - learn to value those things you still possess! [/QUOTE]I've had more than my fill of Church-going, Bible-thumping, know-nothing Christians who yell "Yahoo! Bomb them rag-heads!" whilst waddling off to drive their SUVs to the local Walmarts to buy cheap consumer goods made by slave labor in China, all the while talking about how America is the "greatest nation on Earth, chosen by God" (the Judeo-Christian, Judiazing aspects of this should be obvious).
American "spirituality" is a sick joke. American "religiosity" - that I'll grant you, but it has done nothing to solve our problems or halt our rot; in fact it is one of the chief symptoms, if not causes, of our decline.
Yeah, I don't idolize Europe, but not everything in America is great, and frankly America could use some good old European "decadence" if it came with some of the perks that Europeans enjoy with their decadence.
It's all part of the same disease (the decline of the West) but America and Europe manifest different symptoms of this disease, according to their natures.
2005-01-26 17:46 | User Profile
[COLOR=Navy][B][I] - "Depends what you mean by "spiritually corrupted". If you mean pious adherence to literalist religions, then America is certainly more "spiritually robust" than Western Europe - though it is, by that same criteria, "spiritually impoverished" in comparison to the middle east." [/I] [/B] [/COLOR]
[B]Beliefs have consequences[/B]. Western Europe has (compared to America) incredibly easy-going attitude to pornography, drugs, abortion, fag marriages [B]and race-mixing[/B].
Check out this libertarian "Reason" cartoon to see what I mean:
[B]"Latin Laissez-Faire"[/B]
[url]http://reason.com/0111/bagge1101.gif[/url]
The private gun-owning culture that lives in America is also absent. People here (especially in Scandinavia) have grown frighteningly used to the social-democratic welfare system and even most so-called "conservatives" do not dare to criticize this paralyzing system in the same manner as even many mainstream Republicans in America do.
Petr
2005-01-26 17:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr][COLOR=Navy] [B]Beliefs have consequences[/B]. Western Europe has (compared to America) incredibly easy-going attitude to pornography, drugs, abortion, fag marriages [B]and race-mixing[/B]. Sounds just like America.
Oh, we are more uptight about sex and drugs in America than Europeans are, but the practical consequences of this are practically nil, except to empower an already overly intrusive centralized government.
I think you are confusing American hypocrisy with real fundamental differences to what is going on in Europe. The differences are not as stark as you think.
The private gun-owning culture that lives in America is also absent. People here (especially in Scandinavia) have grown frighteningly used to the social-democratic welfare system and even most so-called "conservatives" do not dare to criticize this paralyzing system in the same manner as even many mainstream Republicans in America do. [/QUOTE]Yes, all this is perfectly true.
But the underlying problems aren't going to be fixed by doing away with the welfare state.
As I said, America and Europe are all part of the West, and subject to the fate of the West. They suffer from the same disease, but manifest different symptoms based upon their differing national character.
2005-01-26 17:53 | User Profile
[COLOR=DarkRed][B][I] - "If you mean a rooted attachment to the more "spiritual" things that aren't related to literalist religion - tradition, order, manners, mysticism, history, language, culture, nature, art, literature, learning - all of which most definitely have a spiritual impact, than Europe is still quite spiritual, and America is a howling wasteland inhabited by spiritually stunted barbarians, in comparison."[/I][/B][/COLOR]
Greeks and Romans also had much more tradition, order, manners, culture etc. - and much more degeneration - than Germanic barbarians of the north.
Too much refinement means decadence, not spirituality.
I guess I tend to see Americans as some kind of unspoiled "noble savages" when compared to Europeans.
Petr
2005-01-26 18:02 | User Profile
Face it, Petr: we [I]all [/I] suck. And we all have our sterling qualities as well, I guess.
LF has always confused me. [I]Is[/I] it or [I]isn't[/I] it some bizarre offshoot of FR? Cosmetically it's practically a dead ringer for FR, what with all those 'flags' and such. Of course, then you scan the [I]thread-titles [/I] - and, obviously, we're not in Kansas anymore...
2005-01-26 18:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr] Greeks and Romans also had much more tradition, order, manners, culture etc. - and much more degeneration - than Germanic barbarians of the north. The Greeks and Romans started out just like the Germanic barbarians. It took a thousand years to go from simple farming tribes with strong religious, family, and cultural traditions, to a degenerate, decadent, and declining civilization. It didn't happen overnight, but it happened.
The West is simply following the same pattern as previous civilizations.
Too much refinement means decadence, not spirituality.
America went from barbarism to decadence without an intervening period of civilization. At least the Europeans benefitted from their intervening period of civilization, before yielding to decadence.
I guess I tend to see Americans as some kind of unspoiled "noble savages" when compared to Europeans. [/QUOTE] I thought so! :yes:
Let me assure you, you are romanticising Americans. We are sometimes savage, but rarely noble, and certainly we were never noble savages. I think you are getting your impressions of America from highly selected sources. The reality here is very different from what you think.
2005-01-26 18:33 | User Profile
[I][B] - "The West is simply following the same pattern as previous civilizations."[/B][/I]
The pagans submit to this unavoidable Fate. Christians refuse to accept Fate and fight back - that's the difference between Oedipus and Job. THAT is the attitude that made the West great and can make it great again!
[COLOR=Blue]" Western culture has too much forgotten, that it derives not only from Graeco-Roman civilisation, but also from Jerusalem. Even the Christian West often forgets this. In order to know primary sources it is necessary to resort to the book of Genesis. Narrated therein is the origin of East and West, of South and North, of the coming about of the world. And here it mustneeds be said, that the Bible is not at all a matter of Classicism, just as neither is it Romanticism, it is necessary to turn to the Bible, in order to comprehend the fate of the world apart from any matters of Classicism and Romanticism, of classical formations and the romantic inner reactions against these formations. There is no one that would assert, that the Prophets or the book of Job are either classical or romantic.
" A comparison of the book of Job with Greek tragedy, with the Oedipus of Sophokles makes clear the differences between the ancient Hebrew, the Biblical, and the type classical, the Greek. [B]In the Oedipus what is striking is the submissive resignation to fate. [/B] The words and gestures of Oedipus are beautiful in their moderation and resignation, in them there is an aesthetic transformation of suffering. Oedipus in his blameless suffering has no one to appeal to, no one to fight against, Oedipus lives in an immanently enclosed world, and there is no power, upon which he can rely in his struggle against the world. [B]The world is full of gods, but these gods are immanent to the world, over them likewise rules fate, which has sent Oedipus his tragic sufferings, blameless and inescapable. The way out is possible only aesthetically. [/B] Classical antiquity did not know of the struggle with God. Job experiences his tragedy altogether differently. In him there is no submission and resignation. Job cries out, and his outcry fills the history of the world, to the very present it sounds forth on our lips. In the outcry of Job we get a sense of the fate of man. [B]For Job fate does not exist, as it did for Oedipus.[/B] He knows of a power, standing higher than the world, higher than fate, to appeal to in the sufferings of the world, he turns his outcry to God and this outcry passes over into a struggle with God.
" Only in the Bible is known the manifestation of God-struggle, the struggle with God face to face, the struggle of Jacob, the struggle of Job, the struggle of all Israel. The resignation to the tragic in a beauty of submissiveness to blameless and inescapable suffering, the amor fati is the grandest attainment of the tragic spirit of Greece. Higher than this the west has not risen. [B]Nietzsche was captivated by this, and by it have been captivated people of Western culture, having forgotten the Bible, having forgotten Him, to Whom is possible to offer complaint against innocent suffering in the world. The amor fati is a romantic motif in the classical world and man can rise up no higher than it, with having lost faith in God uppermost beyond the world. [/B] Dostoevsky is Russian tragedy. And here it is more in the line of Job, than in the line of Greek tragedy. [/COLOR]
[url]http://www.berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_lib/1930_353.html[/url]
(That's one truly spiritual European, N.A. Berdyaev)
[I][B]- "The reality here is very different from what you think."[/B][/I]
Oh, trust me that I am aware of the limitations of Americans. I am not being naive with you, not by a country mile.
Petr
2005-01-26 18:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]The pagans submit to this unavoidable Fate. Christians refuse to accept Fate and fight back - that's the difference between Oedipus and Job. THAT is the attitude that made the West great and can make it great again! Pure poppycock. Job submitted to "fate" or "god" just as much as Oedipus did. In fact, Oedipus was less of a wimp and fought hard to avoid his fate; he did not meekly submit to it, unlike Job.
We can't know if we are doomed or not; we can, however, determine how best to behave in our situation, and act accordingly, accepting the ultimate results as they come, knowing we didn't surrender our honor or succumb to despair - or submit to a pollyannish faith that "everything will work out for the best because God is in control".
Obviously you are not going to consider the historical similarities, but rather bury your head in the sand and take refuge in religious platitudes. Feel free, but you aren't going to convince many people that Christians are somehow magically exempt from the forces of history. The entire historical record speaks against such delusions.
Oh, trust me that I am aware of the limitations of Americans. I am not being naive with you, not by a country mile. [/QUOTE]No; you are just doing a very good imitation! :smile:
2005-01-26 19:09 | User Profile
[I][B] - "Obviously you are not going to consider the historical similarities, but rather bury your head in the sand and take refuge in religious platitudes. Feel free, but you aren't going to convince many people that Christians are somehow magically exempt from the forces of history. The entire historical record speaks against such delusions."[/B][/I]
Blah blah blah. You are obviously of the type that believes that Christians are incapable of serious thinking, and that all faith and idealism is "pollyannish".
By the way, I do not recognize the existence of any pantheistic "forces of history" (how Marxist-Hegelian), just like you do not recognize the existence of my God.
Petr
2005-01-26 19:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr] Blah blah blah. You are obviously of the type that believes that Christians are incapable of serious thinking, and that all faith and idealism is "pollyannish". Sorry, I simply can't take seriously your argument that somehow Christianity provides us with a magic ticket out of our problems. I really wish I could believe, but I can't.
This simply reinforces the point I was making about mental blinders. Everyone wants to force the square peg through the round hole of their choice, if I may mix metaphors.
By the way, I do not recognize the existence of any pantheistic "forces of history" (how Marxist-Hegelian), just like you do not recognize the existence of my God.[/QUOTE]Fine, call it God, History, Nature, Reality - your choice. You chose the label that makes you happy, but try to understand the point I am making.
I am sorry that so many people get upset when people don't agree with their religious opinions, but if you want to ever be more than a tiny debating club, you need to accept that many people you otherwise agree with are not going to be impressed by your religiously based arguments. If you want to speak to them, you are going to have to recast your argument in terms that build some kind of common ground, rather than insisting that they adapt your beliefs as a precondition to any meaningful exchange of ideas.
To get back to the origins of this thread: WN is by no means unique in being irrelevent or in not being capable of making any realistic progress, and in spite of their charms, this applies in spades to the paleocons as well.
2005-01-26 19:23 | User Profile
[I][B] - "I am sorry that so many people get upset when people don't agree with their religious opinions, but if you want to ever be more than a tiny debating club, you need to accept that many people you otherwise agree with are not going to be impressed by your religiously based arguments. If you want to speak to them, you are going to have to recast your argument in terms that build some kind of common ground, rather than insisting that they adapt your beliefs as a precondition to any meaningful exchange of ideas."[/B][/I]
All of this is more or less true, but sometimes it's even more important to "keep the club lean and mean".
Gotta find the "golden medium" between elitism and populism.
Petr
2005-01-26 19:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr] Gotta find the "golden medium" between elitism and populism. [/QUOTE]Of course we aren't going to agree on where this "medium" lies, either.
I gotta run. Enjoy your European decadence. :smile:
2005-01-27 01:36 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]The West is simply following the same pattern as previous civilizations. Spengler or even AntiYuppie you're not.
America went from barbarism to decadence without an intervening period of civilization. If I'm not mistaken Clemenceau, the great French socialist, womanizer, and oppressor of Germany and by a lot of feelings all of post-war Europe, wrote that.
2005-01-27 01:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]Sounds just like America.
Oh, we are more uptight about sex and drugs in America than Europeans are, but the practical consequences of this are practically nil, except to empower an already overly intrusive centralized government.
I think you are confusing American hypocrisy with real fundamental differences to what is going on in Europe. The differences are not as stark as you think.[/QUOTE]I think they're quite more stark then you think. You haven't kept up with Europe much I see.
America may be drifting too, but we haven't established hate crime laws or jail people for talking about homosexuality in a sermon.
And for you WN's I'd think you'd pay more attention to your all important social statistics for whites, family stability and of course the no. 1 thing, birthrates.
Clearly we're having trouble here too, but the situation is far worse in Europe.
The fact is you're claim to reject religion for reason is for any one, not only for a paleoconservative but any rightist, completely unreasonable.
2005-01-27 01:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]I think they're quite more stark then you think. You haven't kept up with Europe much I see.
America may be drifting too, but we haven't established hate crime laws or jail people for talking about homosexuality in a sermon.
And for you WN's I'd think you'd pay more attention to your all important social statistics for whites, family stability and of course the no. 1 thing, birthrates.
Clearly we're having trouble here too, but the situation is far worse in Europe.
The fact is you're claim to reject religion for reason is for any one, not only for a paleoconservative but any rightist, completely unreasonable.[/QUOTE]
On that count, I agree: Europe is, culturally speaking, in trouble. Anyone who looks at a Jew, a Black, a Brown or a queer crosseyed may find himself in jail. In fact, several European states have communist party members in their coalition governments. Considering what happened in the Soviet Union and other communist countries, that's insane. No - beyond insane. Communism brought the world more mass-murder and terror than Hitler could dream of in his most amazing dreams.
Sadly, America is partly to blame for that feature. We helped kick Hitler's ass, which doomed any type of rigid "rightist" thought in post-WWII Europe for many years.
2005-01-27 09:31 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]Somehow the Fascists and National Socialists, for all their problems, managed to put together functioning, successful organizations, and managed to attract serious and mature people who didn't exhibit these tendencies you mention as occurring on WN forums today.[/QUOTE]
The German, Italian, and other continental European patriots had an enormousm advantage; the aftermath of the First World War. For a mercifully brief period (generally just a few months), Communist Party militias (virtually all personally commanded by Jews, as was very publicly known and generally indisputed at the time) seized control of most of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Bavaria and other places, as well as very nearly doing so in just about every European combatant nation, other than in the British Isles. Literally millions of the best & brightest among particularly the Central European elite, were massacred with Khmer Rouge-style brutality, before the local patriotic militias, generally composed of Great War soldiers, and led by their officers (such as the German Freikorps, in which former Corporal Adolf Hitler played a disproportionate role in the liberation of Munich, and the immediate liquidation of the nearly all-Jewish cadre of Bolshevist murderers that had taken up residence in the finest houses, and who's owners, had they not fled quickly enough, were invariably tortured, and also forced to watch as their own children were sodmized and had their throats slit, prior to their own lynching), and declared themselves the ruling commissariat of "the Soviet Socialist Republic of Bavaria."
These sorts of terrible events, which are partly obscured by the Jews and their allies (since the Jews are the bad guys in the story, after all), are also less well-known today, I suspect, by simple virtue of the fact the criminals were so swiftly defeated by the patriotic reaction to their tyranny, and there is thus a tendency to try to put such vile unpleasnantness behind us, in a spirit of all being well which ends well (those Communist partisan leaders not killed in combat, or executed almost immediately upon being captured, were forced to flee to Russia*, where, at the very same time, the exact same people were able to overcome the Russian patriots and permanently impose - well, until 1991, anyway - the precise same form of terroristic kleptocracy which we all know as "communism."
The people generally, but particularly the educated elites and such, of continental Europe, knew precisely what it was like to live under the Judeo-Bolshevist iron heel, if not via direct experience, then via the accounts of the direct experiences of their cousins in the next province over, or whatnot. They also knew the Red Army was coming for them, eventually, and that the often quite philo-Semitic "social democracy"-types that European "democracies" are invariably dominated by, were simply not up to the task of defending the nation from the marauding gang of unspeakable degenerates which was posed to swarm over them and their families. Hitler and Mussolini were two of the men who belonged to the intial group of German & Italian patriots who began asking just who could do such a job. As things progressed, they were selected to just up and do the damn thing themselves. While a brief and negtiated conflict with Britain was always an unfortunate possibility that they would have much preferred avoiding, but which they were willing to accept if need be, the very idea that all of Imperial Britain, including her various independent Dominions, as well as the United States of America, would come to the rescue of the Judeo-Bolshevist slave drivers was perceived to be, with what seemed to be good reason, such an absurdity as to hardly warrant mentioning. As Hitler and Mussolini discovered (and as millions of Americans will perhaps also discover in the final moments of their death agonies, within the coming decade or so), the Jews are a highly resourceful and adaptable opponent. This is why so many seemingly decent and otherwise rational people will still, on occassion, consider the idea of wholesale exterminaton of the Jewish people; because no matter how immoral and cruel the idea might seem, it seems as if showing them mercy simply means they'll be eradicating you and your family, friends, neighbours, national leaders, cultural exemplars, and making our White people become extinct, the first chance they get, which probably won't take long.
Today, as our people are being massacred far more effectively than Talmudic hacks like Bela Kun and Rosa Lexembourg could ever hope to manage, via such far more subtle methods such as the birth control pill, abortuaries (and their almost invariably Jewish "doctors"), the H1-B and the "family reunification" visas, multiculturalism, affirmative action, so-called "civil rights" laws, so-called "hate crime" laws, etc., it has become much more difficult to explain, even to what passes today for an educated man, the seriousness of the danger we now face. The White man has never been defeated, in any meaningful sense, by rampaging hordes of foreign, barbarian would-be murderers; we are superior t them (by our standars, at any rate), and can always devise more effective weaponry, and more devastating miliatry tactics, than they can even conceive of. Only through the seemingly endless series of deceptive practices and hypocritical, treacherous lies that have come to characterize the Jews' very way of life, can the White man be defeated. That is what is happening now. It was, however, also happening in 1919, and yet our enemies found themselves being shot by firing squads composed of men who had enagaged in brawls, and paid hefty bribes, for the spiritually uplifting and delicious honor of sending these hideous swine to the ever-lasting Hell which is their natural domain. Which is to say, its always darkest before the storm. Our victory, and thus the Jewish defeat, will not only occur within our natual lives, but quite possibly very soon indeed.
*The principal leader of the shortly-lived, post-Great War Communist tyranny in Hungary, the Jew Bela Kun, lived a life of sybaritic luxury in Moscow while working in the Hungarian language section of the Communist Party propaganda directorate, and was re-installed to power in Budapest by his KGB pals, several years Stalin took FDR up on his oh-so-generous offer to take possession of Central Europe. The reign of terror which Kun immediately imposed upon all the people of Hungary, in an attempt to wreak vengeance for their having vioently rejected his leadership over 30 years previously, led to the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, in which Kun was, if I'm not mistaken, once again forced to flee Hungary for his life, with armed & angry patriots yearning for a swift justice following closely at the heels. Sadly, Kun was soon able to return triumphantly to Budapest based on the crushing power of Soviet Armored Divisions (although if I remember the story correctly, Kun was quietly put into retirement shortly thereafter, as his having lost Hungary for Communsim twice in one lifetime made it clear there was a ceiling on just how high in the Bolshevist ranks Kun could effectively operate, i.e. the man, while probably not an idiot, had a tendency to behave much as if he were one).
2005-01-27 09:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE]These sorts of terrible events, which are partly obscured by the Jews and their allies (since the Jews are the bad guys in the story, after all), are also less well-known today, I suspect, by simple virtue of the fact the criminals were so swiftly defeated by the patriotic reaction to their tyranny, and there is thus a tendency to try to put such vile unpleasnantness behind us[/QUOTE]
...that, and you are pretty much describing the spirit animating the Iraqi resistance...and we mustn't lend Tha Evil Wunz any sort of legitimacy.
The average American is taught history the way the average convict reads his mail...with entire passages snipped out, and others blacked over with thick Magic Marker.
2005-01-27 17:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr][COLOR=Navy][B][I] - "Depends what you mean by "spiritually corrupted". If you mean pious adherence to literalist religions, then America is certainly more "spiritually robust" than Western Europe - though it is, by that same criteria, "spiritually impoverished" in comparison to the middle east." [/I] [/B] [/COLOR]
[B]Beliefs have consequences[/B]. Western Europe has (compared to America) incredibly easy-going attitude to pornography, drugs, abortion, fag marriages [B]and race-mixing[/B]. [/QUOTE] Your examples fail to validate your thesis. In pure metric tonnage American captains of industry take the laurel wreath when it comes to the production of pornography. Abortion on demand is available throughout the US; it certainly isn't throughout the EU. Drugs, sodomite fashion fads and miscegenation? Does anyone seriously believe there is a significant margin between the US and Europe here? The US probably has more drug related crime per capita and Europe probably has more fag pandering, but this is as relevant in weighting Christianity's sociological effects as a pissing contest between two school boys. Basically I'd like to see some hard evidence.
[QUOTE=Petr] Check out this libertarian "Reason" cartoon to see what I mean:
[B]"Latin Laissez-Faire"[/B]
[url]http://reason.com/0111/bagge1101.gif[/url] [/QUOTE] Petr, you know you're in trouble when you use a libertarian cartoon (an interesting case of the noun being redundant to the adjective) to re-enforce your point.
[QUOTE=Petr]People here [Europe] (especially in Scandinavia) have grown frighteningly used to the social-democratic welfare system and even most so-called "conservatives" do not dare to criticize this paralyzing system in the same manner as even many mainstream Republicans in America do.[/QUOTE] There are two types of modern Western state: those which are socialist in nature (e.g. France), and those which pretend they're not (e.g. the USA).
[QUOTE=Okiereddust] And for you WN's I'd think you'd pay more attention to your all important social statistics for whites, family stability and of course the no. 1 thing, birthrates.
Clearly we're having trouble here too, but the situation is far worse in Europe [/QUOTE] The US is significantly ahead of Europe on birth rate, but that's attributable to third world fecundity rather than piety. As for family stability, well what do we factor a comparison on? Divorce rates? The US is clearly the loser on that score. That's not to say divorce is the sole indicator of familial breakdown, but it's certainly and area which provides clear statistical comparisons. The states with the highest divorce rates appear to be those situated in the so-called 'Bible belt'. Your own Oklahoma had more than double the divorce rate of New York according to these 1994 figures: [url]http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS2.shtml[/url]. Massachusetts, where they recently legislated pro queer marriage, had the lowest divorce rate.
If Christianity is shielding America from the ongoing moral implosion of the West I'm certainly interested in seeing the evidence.
2005-01-27 18:01 | User Profile
[I][B] - "Literally millions of the best & brightest among particularly the Central European elite, were massacred with Khmer Rouge-style brutality,"[/B][/I]
Central Europe? Millions? I don't think so. Those Bavarian and Hungarian Reds had time to slaughter fortunately only several thousands of people, this is way over the top.
(not that they had lacked the will to do more)
[I][B]- "Sadly, Kun was soon able to return triumphantly to Budapest based on the crushing power of Soviet Armored Divisions" [/B] [/I]
Actually Bela Kun was shot during Stalin's "great terror" in 1937.
You're a pretty smart guy Kevin, but I'd still suggest you'd perform a little fact-checking before your every post, like all professionals do.
:)
Petr
2005-01-28 00:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE=na Gaeil is gile]The US is significantly ahead of Europe on birth rate, but that's attributable to third world fecundity rather than piety. As for family stability, well what do we factor a comparison on? Divorce rates? The US is clearly the loser on that score. That's not to say divorce is the sole indicator of familial breakdown, but it's certainly and area which provides clear statistical comparisons. The states with the highest divorce rates appear to be those situated in the so-called 'Bible belt'. Your own Oklahoma had more than double the divorce rate of New York according to these 1994 figures: [url]http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS2.shtml[/url]. Massachusetts, where they recently legislated pro queer marriage, had the lowest divorce rate.
If Christianity is shielding America from the ongoing moral implosion of the West I'm certainly interested in seeing the evidence.[/QUOTE]
You know what they say about tornadoes and a divorce in Oklahoma, NG?
Either way, somebody is losing a trailer home.
Seriously, I had a theory I thought would help explain away some of the facts you present, but the OK divorce rate kind of threw it out the window. I'm going to have to keep thinking on it. Admittedly, I find myself with the same perceptions concerning European decadence as Petr, but I don't have any defense against your points concerning abortion rates and the cultural smut, trash and perversion that is regularly produced here in the States. I wanted to bring up red/blue state cultural division, but that Oklahoma vs. Massachusettes divorce rate spoiled that. With regards to Christianity, I do think on the whole that American churches are by and large much more orthodox and conservative in their doctrines, but obviously this is not affecting the overall culture. Even in the vaunted Bible belt, 30 or 40 years ago if some stray muslim tried to open a mosque or porn distributor open up a 24-hour 'news' stand, he would have been paid a visit by the Klan or at the very least, shut down by the local churches working in concert with local authorities. Now a days, the locals may gripe a bit and even hold a candlelight vigil, but we lack the intestinal fortitude to rid our communities of these type cancers. Obviously, we here in America need to clean up our own backyard before pointing fingers at anything going on in Europe. It's sad, really.
2005-01-28 02:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE=na Gaeil is gile]Your examples fail to validate your thesis. In pure metric tonnage American captains of industry take the laurel wreath when it comes to the production of pornography. Abortion on demand is available throughout the US; it certainly isn't throughout the EU.
Where isn't it? Certainly not in Northern or Western Europe (save Ireland, the exception that proves the rule).
There are two types of modern Western state: those which are socialist in nature (e.g. France), and those which pretend they're not (e.g. the USA). Well, look the percentage of GDP going to government. In the U.S while high,(around 37%) it is still much lower than in Western European States, where it is above 60% now.
The US is significantly ahead of Europe on birth rate, but that's attributable to third world fecundity rather than piety. I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I think comparative statistics on white women show the U.S.'s Birthrate is much higher.
As for family stability, well what do we factor a comparison on? Divorce rates? The US is clearly the loser on that score. That's not to say divorce is the sole indicator of familial breakdown, but it's certainly and area which provides clear statistical comparisons. The states with the highest divorce rates appear to be those situated in the so-called 'Bible belt'. Your own Oklahoma had more than double the divorce rate of New York according to these 1994 figures: [url]http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS2.shtml[/url]. Massachusetts, where they recently legislated pro queer marriage, had the lowest divorce rate.
If Christianity is shielding America from the ongoing moral implosion of the West I'm certainly interested in seeing the evidence.[/QUOTE]
There are certainly regional and state by state variations and factors. Factors are complex. But overall, the red states (and Oklahoma was one of the very reddest) were concentrated in the Bible belt and and other closely related areas religiously, like the Mountain States and Midwest. And here this GOP vote correlated very strongly with the marriage rate re: Steve Sailor
[QUOTE]As you will recall, I found that Bush's share of the vote by state correlated (at the extraordinarily high level of r = 0.91, in quant speak) with the average years married among white women ages 18 to 44 in those states.
[url]http://www.vdare.com/sailer/050123_vindicated.htm[/url] [/QUOTE] Now I don't know how this correlates in with the divorce rate exactly. You note that high divorce rate states are concentrated in the Bible Belt also, Arkansas, Tennessee, Alabama, even Texas (Mississippi also, although this is close to majority black). Apparently people in these states while divorcing more, are also much more likely to remarry compared with those in the blue states.
But I'm not sure what the direct comparison with Massachusetts religiously is supposed to mean anyway. By some standards Massachusetts is also a pretty religious state (Church membership etc.) although obviously a very different kind of Christianity than in the South. If you want a direct comparison in terms of Church membership you might compare with states like Nevada, California, and Oregon, which are the most "un-churched" states.
So using divorce rates solely as a measure of the strength of the family, re "family stability" as a measure of the strength of the family is defective, although I'll grant it is certainly very significant. But you have to break it down more closely, and look at the basis too. (we can do that if you'd like). And by other measures, such as the white birthrate, the Bible Belt states are well ahead of the rest of the country, which in turn again is well ahead of Canada and Europe.
2005-01-28 02:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Even in the vaunted Bible belt, 30 or 40 years ago if some stray muslim tried to open a mosque or porn distributor open up a 24-hour 'news' stand, he would have been paid a visit by the Klan or at the very least, shut down by the local churches working in concert with local authorities. Now a days, the locals may gripe a bit and even hold a candlelight vigil, but we lack the intestinal fortitude to rid our communities of these type cancers. Obviously, we here in America need to clean up our own backyard before pointing fingers at anything going on in Europe. It's sad, really.[/QUOTE]Well obnoxious diversities and smut certainly are a problem in the U.S. now, as they really are everywhere. But really its nothing compared to places like Germany, where by some accounts I've heard they they sell hardcore porno in every grocery store lane and every third business it seems is a novelty shop. I hear similar things about European TV.
Clearly public morality is threatened everywhere by globalization, but that's not to say our efforts here at resisting are not still strongly evident, at least in comparison in other places where they are relatively absent.
2005-01-28 15:48 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]You know what they say about tornadoes and a divorce in Oklahoma, NG?
Either way, somebody is losing a trailer home.
Seriously, I had a theory I thought would help explain away some of the facts you present, but the OK divorce rate kind of threw it out the window. I'm going to have to keep thinking on it. Admittedly, I find myself with the same perceptions concerning European decadence as Petr, but I don't have any defense against your points concerning abortion rates and the cultural smut, trash and perversion that is regularly produced here in the States. I wanted to bring up red/blue state cultural division, but that Oklahoma vs. Massachusettes divorce rate spoiled that. With regards to Christianity, I do think on the whole that American churches are by and large much more orthodox and conservative in their doctrines, but obviously this is not affecting the overall culture. Even in the vaunted Bible belt, 30 or 40 years ago if some stray muslim tried to open a mosque or porn distributor open up a 24-hour 'news' stand, he would have been paid a visit by the Klan or at the very least, shut down by the local churches working in concert with local authorities. Now a days, the locals may gripe a bit and even hold a candlelight vigil, but we lack the intestinal fortitude to rid our communities of these type cancers. Obviously, we here in America need to clean up our own backyard before pointing fingers at anything going on in Europe. It's sad, really.[/QUOTE]
Briefly, my thoughts are that the inability to affect the overall culture is due to the fact the "more orthodox and conservative churches" have had their teeth carefully (and painfully) pulled over the last century. I won't go on a long rant about why this is so, but the fact remains. At best, the "hard" churches can only fight with rhetoric, and even that is diminishing in value as their voices are being drowned out by the squishy-feelies and their ilk. A personal example is a Baptist (!!!) chruch in Tyler, TX crowing about its helping 90% non-Whites (and mostly non-citizens at that) in a one-year period. A "mission to Mexico in our own backyard!" as they put it. Anyway, any view to the right of the Epsicopalian Church is deemed "religious fundamentalism" (sneeringly) and through sheer repetition, it slowly adheres, like a brain parasite, to the national consciousness. Your point about the Klan is a good one. Time was, the fella leading the cross-burning on Saturday was likely to be delivering the sermon on Sunday. Now that the Klan is a 1:1 mix of well-meaning rednecks and government informants, well, you can see those incisors have been dulled.
2005-01-28 17:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust] [QUOTE=na Gaeil is gile]Abortion on demand is available throughout the US; it certainly isn't throughout the EU. [/QUOTE] Where isn't it? Certainly not in Northern or Western Europe (save Ireland, the exception that proves the rule). [/QUOTE] I was referring to abortion on demand, i.e. a 'right' to terminate any pregnancy regardless of the foetus 'viability' or conditions of conception. While the Republic of Ireland is the only Western European state which prohibits abortion under any circumstances, it's by no means alone in restricting abortion. Spain, for example, bans abortion except in the cases of conception by rape, severe foetus deformation or major heath risk due to complications with the pregnancy (the last issue is dubious in my - admittedly unqualified - medical opinion).
[URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1869009.stm[/URL] has a handy summary on abortion restriction (or sadly lack of it) across Europe. It's significant that, with the exception of Poland, all the restrictions are in Western Europe, but note that some of the information in the BBC news item may be inaccurate. This paragraph on Ireland is untrue and sloppily researched: "Ireland has voted five times in the past 20 years on its abortion laws, most recently deciding to continue to allow women to have an abortion if they say they are suicidal - a loophole the government and Catholic Church wanted closed." The Supreme Court only decided (under certain circumstances, which don't include "if they say they are suicidal") that the mother had a legal right to travel to another state to have the pregnancy terminated.
Among states which legally permit abortion, Western Europe has the lowest rate of abortion in the world ([url]http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html[/url]). Shockingly Eastern Europe has the highest - appallingly high - although the true figure becomes increasing difficult to establish the further mired in poverty a nation is.
[QUOTE=Okiereddust] By some standards Massachusetts is also a pretty religious state (Church membership etc.) although obviously a very different kind of Christianity than in the South. [/QUOTE] They're Anglicans, you can't get anymore Godless than that ;)
[QUOTE=Okiereddust] So using divorce rates solely as a measure of the strength of the family, re "family stability" as a measure of the strength of the family is defective, although I'll grant it is certainly very significant. [/QUOTE] Divorce rate certainly is not the be all and end all, just because a family doesn't split up doesn't mean it's not dysfunctional, and in a US vs. Western Europe comparison we also need to factor that some European countries may have more restrictive divorce laws than much of the States. However divorce is still the legal act of familial dissolution and thus extremely well documented. We're not going to find a better factual basis for comparison.
Anywayââ¬Â¦ interesting thread, it's made me late for my train, hopefully I'll be able to get back to some of your and TDââ¬â¢s other points in a later post.
2005-01-28 18:10 | User Profile
Isn't abortion on demand prohibited in Portugal too?
Anyway, as someone who travels frequently to Europe, I can honestly say that the European people are way more friendly and sophisticated than Americans. Also, they like to enjoy life, [I]un vraie joie de vivre[/I], if you will. In any case, the Jews and Osama Bin Laden love nothing more than seeing a deepening rift in American-European relations. We can't let their vision succeed.
Face it America and Europe: We need each other, alot.
2005-01-28 18:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=xmetalhead]Isn't abortion on demand prohibited in Portugal too? Perhaps as with Spain, but I was saying northern and western Europe. The Iberian peninsula is historically and culturally at the periphery of western Europe. (As of course is Ireland)It's the exception that proves the rule.
Anyway, as someone who travels frequently to Europe, I can honestly say that the European people are way more friendly and sophisticated than Americans. Also, they like to enjoy life, [I]un vraie joie de vivre[/I], if you will. In any case, the Jews and Osama Bin Laden love nothing more than seeing a deepening rift in American-European relations. We can't let their vision succeed.
Face it America and Europe: We need each other, alot.[/QUOTE]Just in general of course you find the people you meet on vacations or other recreation events more friendly than in more mundane situations, but I did enjoy talking to a lot of friendly people on my trip there too.
I do think the neocon tendency is to drive a wedge between Europe and America that isn't really there, and certainly oversimpify the cultural and ideological differences that do exist.
Although for some reason they stil like us fighting wars there. But then they like us fighting wars everywhere :lol:
2005-01-28 18:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Perhaps as with Spain, but I was saying northern and western Europe. The Iberian peninsula is historically and culturally at the periphery of western Europe. (As of course is Ireland)It's the exception that proves the rule.
Just in general of course you find the people you meet on vacations or other recreation events more friendly than in more mundane situations, but I did enjoy talking to a lot of friendly people on my trip there too. [/QUOTE]
Yes, this is true. However, in whichever country I'm in, I'm also carefully observing how the natives treat each other as an indicator of the level of friendliness or what have you.
[QUOTE]I do think the [B]neocon tendency is to drive a wedge between Europe and America[/B] that isn't really there, and certainly oversimpify the cultural and ideological differences that do exist.
Although for some reason they stil like us fighting wars there. But then they like us fighting wars everywhere :lol:[/QUOTE]
Okie, this is the biggest problem I had with The Phora and which gave me indication that is was nothing but a Neocon board dressed up in WN clothing. Some of the Phoranistas would've probably loved the idea of nuking "decadent" Europe because America, well, just RULES, dude. :thumbsup:
2005-01-30 22:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=na Gaeil is gile]Your examples fail to validate your thesis. In pure metric tonnage American captains of industry take the laurel wreath when it comes to the production of pornography. Abortion on demand is available throughout the US; it certainly isn't throughout the EU. Drugs, sodomite fashion fads and miscegenation? Does anyone seriously believe there is a significant margin between the US and Europe here? The US probably has more drug related crime per capita and Europe probably has more fag pandering, but this is as relevant in weighting Christianity's sociological effects as a pissing contest between two school boys. Basically I'd like to see some hard evidence.
.....Massachusetts, where they recently legislated pro queer marriage, had the lowest divorce rate.
If Christianity is shielding America from the ongoing moral implosion of the West I'm certainly interested in seeing the evidence.[/QUOTE]
Here's your evidence, if you aren't busy hiding out from these persecuting intolerant Christions Greg was getting all hyped up about.
[URL=http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16514]German Women Legally Forced to Take Jobs In Brothels[/URL]
2005-01-31 17:13 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Perhaps as with Spain, but I was saying northern and western Europe. The Iberian peninsula is historically and culturally at the periphery of western Europe. (As of course is Ireland)It's the exception that proves the rule.[/QUOTE] So Iberia is too western to be included in western Europe? What about Switzerland? Too many mountains? Too high? You're only counting everything which is east of Greenwich and no more than five hundred meters above sea level?
[QUOTE=Okiereddust] [QUOTE=na Gaeil is gile] If Christianity is shielding America from the ongoing moral implosion of the West I'm certainly interested in seeing the evidence. [/QUOTE] Here's your evidence [URL=http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16514]German Women Legally Forced to Take Jobs In Brothels[/URL][/QUOTE] That's it? Come on Okie, you're not even trying. A ten-year-old with a grasp of reading comprehension could establish the title of that article as a lie, in terms of journalistic integrity it's only fit for a smirking ââ¬ÅOy Veyââ¬Â or two over on [URL=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1331669/posts]Free Republic[/URL].
There's lots of issues where Europe and American can be contrasted, these are just the points Petr and yourself have raised - but not backed up - on this thread: [list] []Pornography (although I refuse to take any argument seriously that suggests the USA is superior to anyone on porn, unless it's in scale of production) []Drugs []Abortion []Gay marriage []Miscegnation []Thought crime legislation []Family stability []Birthrates [*]Socialism [/list]
[QUOTE=Okiereddust] if you aren't busy hiding out from these persecuting intolerant Christions Greg was getting all hyped up about. [/QUOTE] :huh: I've neither the time nor inclination to engage in persecution fantasies involving 'Christians'.
2005-01-31 17:22 | User Profile
[QUOTE=na Gaeil is gile]So Iberia is too western to be included in western Europe? What about Switzerland? Too many mountains? Too high? You're only counting everything which is east of Greenwich and no more than five hundred meters above sea level?[/QUOTE] I think Okie's conception of 'Western Europe' doesn't include any countries with large Catholic populations (with the possible exception of Italy.)