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Thread ID: 16235 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2005-01-07
2005-01-07 20:05 | User Profile
[I]I say, they have no one but themselves to blame...[/I]
Losing the faith in France
By Robert Pigott Religious affairs correspondent, France
As secularisation takes an increasingly firm hold over French society, Catholic congregations are disappearing and the country's ageing priests are dying.
Father Andre Bouzou moves through the market in Montcuq - a picturesque place amid vineyards and sunflower fields in the Lot valley in south-west France - with the easy familiarity of a man confident of his welcome.
The way Fr Bouzou picks his way between the stalls selling duck confit and local honey, kissing some of the stall holders and ruffling their children's hair, makes it seem that the Church still occupies a central role in people's lives.
But priests are scarce in the Lot valley now, so scarce that Fr Bouzou has no fewer than 40 churches to look after. It would be a virtually impossible task, but for the fact that many of them have almost no congregation.
There are just a handful of worshippers for Fr Bouzou's mass at St Laurent Lolmie.
Outside, the little churchyard is crowded with the tombs of past generations of the faithful. Inside are just the former mayor (baptised in this church 84 years ago), two elderly women and three nuns.
They can all remember when every church like this had its own priest.
Times gone by
One of the nuns tells me that the pews are now empty because of materialism and the breakdown in community life, but Fr Bouzou blames people's aversion to belonging.
"They're prepared to take part," he says, "but they don't want to belong to an institution."
Fr Bouzou, who is 63 and has the faded good looks of a former film star, is younger than most priests in the Cahors diocese. The average age is 68.
For decades, the Church in France has been living on borrowed time, relying on a body of priests whose average age has steadily increased. That time has suddenly run out.
Recent research suggests that French priests have become so old that half of them will die in the next eight years.
At Puy L'Eveque, Michel Cambon is Fr Bouzou's nearest fellow priest. He is the only one who seems really angry about the crisis.
As we walk among the dilapidated tombs in the churchyard with their fallen crosses and mournful statuary, the church bells clang balefully.
Fr Cambon - who has more than 30 churches to look after - says his elderly congregation is dying out so rapidly that in 10 years there may be no church in Puy L'Eveque at all.
Priests used to have higher status in French society... they were considered respectable and significant Fr Lucien Lachieze-Rey
"People kept saying it would be all right," says Fr Cambon, "but they're about to be proved wrong. My fear is that the Roman Catholic Church will disappear altogether in France. That's the path we're on."
For French seminaries it is a well-trodden path. Only 150 men completed their training as priests last year, for the whole of France.
In the library at Toulouse Seminary, Fr Lucien Lachieze-Rey pushes ancient wooden stairs into place with a squeal of un-oiled wheels, and searches for a book to illustrate the point. He says ordination seems less attractive to young people now.
"Priests used to have higher status in French society," he says. "They were considered respectable and significant. Now, like teachers and engineers, they don't have the respect they used to."
Global recruitment
The Church has sought a solution in the African countries, to which it took Christianity more than a century ago.
Almost 30 priests from former French colonies such as Senegal, Gambia and Ivory Coast are in the diocese.
Fr Anatole Kere sees himself as a missionary, bringing the faith back to a post-Christian country.
The evening I met him he was sitting amid the faded grandeur of the presbytery at Fumel, giggling infectiously as he prepared two young couples for the baptism of their children.
At home, in Burkina Faso, Fr Kere might preach to 5,000 people. Here he will often find just five in church.
He is mystified that the faith that so enthuses Africans is all but ignored in France. He blames the material wealth of French people.
"It gives people the sense of having a refuge," he says. "They become uninterested in spiritual things. They don't seem to realise the dangers in neglecting the spiritual side of man."
In demand
Fr Bouzou takes a wedding service at Montlauzun on a sunny Saturday. This couple were lucky. More and more weddings are conducted by lay people. So are funerals, and even baptisms.
Some priests support a movement called Focalari, a broad-based, un-dogmatic approach to Christianity aimed particularly at the young, in the hope of bringing people back to church.
But many others support an even more radical idea, in open defiance of the Pope's strict edict: an end to compulsory celibacy and even the ordination of women.
The wedding party unfolds under a huge chestnut tree in a field behind the church. Someone has tied paper streamers to the lower branches. A four-piece band is playing and the bride dances with two children at the same time.
Fr Bouzou mingles for a few moments, then, unnoticed, disappears.
There is a wedding in St Cyprien, mass later on at Montcuq, and the funeral of an old friend in Lascabanes.
From Our Own Correspondent was broadcast on Thursday, 6 January, 2005 at 1100 GMT on BBC Radio 4. Please check the programme schedules for World Service transmission times.
Story from BBC NEWS: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/...ent/4149645.stm[/url]
Published: 2005/01/07 08:55:27 GMT
é BBC MMV
2005-01-07 22:15 | User Profile
Will this news sadden Jean-Marie (Aaron) Lustiger, the Jew arch-bishop of Paris? Hmm. I wonder!
2005-01-07 22:56 | User Profile
[url]http://www.christianpost.com/article/europe/332/section/evangelicals.in.france.voice.concern.over.discrimination/1.htm[/url]
[SIZE=4]Evangelicals in France Voice Concern Over Discrimination[/SIZE]
[B]Evangelicals in France are facing growing problems as authorities enforce secularism, discriminate them or label them as supporters of the highly unpopular U.S. President, French Protestant leaders say.
Tuesday, Dec. 21, 2004 Posted: 5:49:14PM EST[/B]
Evangelicals in France are facing growing problems as authorities enforce secularism, discriminate them or label them as supporters of the highly unpopular U.S. President, French Protestant leaders say. Though religious freedom is not under threat in the proudly secular nation, the problems have prompted mainstream and evangelical Protestant leaders to speak out.
"Evangelical churches face more and more administrative problems from local authorities," Stephane Lauzet, secretary general of the French Evangelical Alliance (AEF), told Reuters. "It shows the difficulties officials here have with religion."
According to Reuters, there are about a million Protestants in France--a country of 60 million. Most are from the Lutheran or Reformed traditions but [B]evangelical ranks are growing, [U]both in established churches [/U] and in new congregations of African, Haitian and Asian immigrants. [/B]
Of the French Protestant Federation (FPF)--the main ecumenical partner of the World Council of Churches in France--Evangelicals make up 40 percent. And their ranks are growing, Reuters reported, even at a time when France is stressing secularist laws such as the ban on religious symbols in state schools.
However, despite their numbers, Evangelicals say they encounter bureaucratic hurdles when trying to open churches and say they are seen as sects because they differ from France's traditional faiths.
In one reported incident, local officials in northern Paris refused to let a large Haitian evangelical congregation purchase the warehouse they have been using as a church, saying it has too few parking spaces.
"But they've already been there for 12 years," said FPF's Jean-Arnold de Clermont, without parking space ever being mentioned as a problem. The FPF head told Reuters that other congregations had similar difficulties.
Lauzet said evangelicals also had more problems getting permits for new church buildings.
Meanwhile, both Clermont and Lauzet report that many French--unfamiliar with the varied faces of Protestantism--linked the evangelicals with the U.S. religious right and with U.S. President George W. Bush, highly unpopular in France.
"To them, anything that's not Catholic is a sect," Lauzet said.
[B]Last spring, the left-leaning weekly Le Nouvel Observateur ran a cover story with a picture of Bush and the headline "Evangelicals--the sect that wants to conquer the world."[/B]
The magazine apologized after protests by the FPF and AEF.
Currently, mainstream and evangelical Protestants make up only two percent of the population in traditionally Catholic France.
I[/I]
2005-01-07 23:23 | User Profile
Well, I guess the bright side of these latest anti-Protestant moves in France is that the French authorities are at least no longer killing their Protestants (see the massacre of French Protestants on the feast of St-Bartholomew in 1572).
2005-01-08 00:27 | User Profile
Almost 30 priests from former French colonies such as Senegal, Gambia and Ivory Coast are in the diocese.
This is sure to help.
2005-01-08 21:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr][url="http://www.christianpost.com/article/europe/332/section/evangelicals.in.france.voice.concern.over.discrimination/1.htm"]http://www.christianpost.com/article/europe/332/section/evangelicals.in.france.voice.concern.over.discrimination/1.htm[/url]
[size=4]Evangelicals in France Voice Concern Over Discrimination[/size]
Evangelicals in France are facing growing problems as authorities enforce secularism, discriminate them or label them as supporters of the highly unpopular U.S. President, French Protestant leaders say.
Tuesday, Dec. 21, 2004 Posted: 5:49:14PM EST
Evangelicals in France are facing growing problems as authorities enforce secularism, discriminate them or label them as supporters of the highly unpopular U.S. President, French Protestant leaders say. Though religious freedom is not under threat in the proudly secular nation, the problems have prompted mainstream and evangelical Protestant leaders to speak out.
"Evangelical churches face more and more administrative problems from local authorities," Stephane Lauzet, secretary general of the French Evangelical Alliance (AEF), told Reuters. "It shows the difficulties officials here have with religion."
According to Reuters, there are about a million Protestants in France--a country of 60 million. Most are from the Lutheran or Reformed traditions but **evangelical ranks are growing, [u]both in established churches [/u]and in new congregations of African, Haitian and Asian immigrants. **
Of the French Protestant Federation (FPF)--the main ecumenical partner of the World Council of Churches in France--Evangelicals make up 40 percent. And their ranks are growing, Reuters reported, even at a time when France is stressing secularist laws such as the ban on religious symbols in state schools.
However, despite their numbers, Evangelicals say they encounter bureaucratic hurdles when trying to open churches and say they are seen as sects because they differ from France's traditional faiths.
In one reported incident, local officials in northern Paris refused to let a large Haitian evangelical congregation purchase the warehouse they have been using as a church, saying it has too few parking spaces.
"But they've already been there for 12 years," said FPF's Jean-Arnold de Clermont, without parking space ever being mentioned as a problem. The FPF head told Reuters that other congregations had similar difficulties.
Lauzet said evangelicals also had more problems getting permits for new church buildings.
Meanwhile, both Clermont and Lauzet report that many French--unfamiliar with the varied faces of Protestantism--linked the evangelicals with the U.S. religious right and with U.S. President George W. Bush, highly unpopular in France.
"To them, anything that's not Catholic is a sect," Lauzet said.
Last spring, the left-leaning weekly Le Nouvel Observateur ran a cover story with a picture of Bush and the headline "Evangelicals--the sect that wants to conquer the world."
The magazine apologized after protests by the FPF and AEF.
Currently, mainstream and evangelical Protestants make up only two percent of the population in traditionally Catholic France.
(Note: this figure doesn't include the rapidly growing Pentecostal movement)[/QUOTE]I didn't think this was Frenchmen going in for Evangelicalism. Even with all the great examples of brilliant French Catholic intellectuals this was not enough to keep the masses of Frenchmen from thinking religion was too unsophisticated for the modern French mind. So they sure as hell won't gravitate to some brain-dead, non-liturgical Christian group.
According to Reuters, there are about a million Protestants in France--a country of 60 million. Most are from the Lutheran or Reformed traditions but evangelical ranks are growing, [u]both in established churches [/u]and in new congregations of African, Haitian and Asian immigrants.**
These same low-end-of-the-bell-curve types that embrace stupid non-liturgical Christanity will also easily embrace Islam, and given the demographics in France and the rest of Europe, they will likely mix with Muslims through intermarriage and in time will be absorbed into the emerging Franco-Islamic society.
2005-01-08 22:10 | User Profile
[B]"stupid non-liturgical Christianity..."[/B]
Your Catholic bias are showing.
Petr
2005-01-09 05:55 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]"stupid non-liturgical Christianity..."
Your Catholic bias are showing.
Petr[/QUOTE] Ah hah, I borrowed this line from an Anglican acquaintance of mine who blurted it out in the company of other heretics after one-too-many glasses of wine.
2005-01-09 14:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE]He is mystified that the faith that so enthuses Africans is all but ignored in France. He blames the material wealth of French people.
"It gives people the sense of having a refuge," he says. "They become uninterested in spiritual things. They don't seem to realise the dangers in neglecting the spiritual side of man." [/QUOTE]
They say 70% of Americans claim to be Christian, whereas only 10% of the French claim so.
I say, at least, the French aren't hypocrites.
Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says: [COLOR=DarkRed]21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter unto the kingdom of heaven; but that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[/COLOR] 22 [COLOR=DarkRed]Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/COLOR] 23 [COLOR=DarkRed]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/COLOR]
2005-01-09 16:51 | User Profile
Persecution and marginalization of the Church, while certainly not good things in themselves, can be used by God for good. Specifically, I think open persecution forces Christians to take stock of who their real enemies are, and they build up a fortress mentality, which protects the physical and doctrinal integrity of the Church. The situation in the US today, in which you have 'soft' or less-obvious persecution, coupled with heretics in the churches who are insidiously changing doctrine from within, is a much worse predicament for the Church than blatant and heavy-handed repression.
2005-01-09 18:10 | User Profile
[COLOR=Indigo][I] - "Persecution and marginalization of the Church, while certainly not good things in themselves, can be used by God for good. Specifically, I think open persecution forces Christians to take stock of who their real enemies are, and they build up a fortress mentality, which protects the physical and doctrinal integrity of the Church.
"The situation in the US today, in which you have 'soft' or less-obvious persecution, coupled with heretics in the churches who are insidiously changing doctrine from within, is a much worse predicament for the Church than blatant and heavy-handed repression."[/I][/COLOR]
There is much truth in this.
"What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger."
Petr
2005-01-10 05:36 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]Persecution and marginalization of the Church, while certainly not good things in themselves, can be used by God for good. Specifically, I think open persecution forces Christians to take stock of who their real enemies are, and they build up a fortress mentality, which protects the physical and doctrinal integrity of the Church. The situation in the US today, in which you have 'soft' or less-obvious persecution, coupled with heretics in the churches who are insidiously changing doctrine from within, is a much worse predicament for the Church than blatant and heavy-handed repression.[/QUOTE]
The Southern Baptist Church has just produced a new translation of the Bible, the Holman Christian Standard Bible. It's destined to become a very popular Bible. And, of course in Baptist churches, it will replace the KJV. For an idea of its nature, it uses "gender inclusive language" in 194 verses were even the moderaly liberal NIV uses masculine language.
The NIV itself is being replaced by the New NIV, where gender inclusive language is the rule. You know where gender inclusive language goes, other forms of Political Correctness also go.
Ain't we making great progress. And, in France, what does the nun point to as the problem. Materalism. Materalism is a symptom, not a cause.
2005-01-10 05:43 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]The Southern Baptist Church has just produced a new translation of the Bible, the Holman Christian Standard Bible. It's destined to become a very popular Bible. And, of course in Baptist churches, it will replace the KJV. For an idea of its nature, it uses "gender inclusive language" in 194 verses were even the moderaly liberal NIV uses masculine language.
The NIV itself is being replaced by the New NIV, where gender inclusive language is the rule. You know where gender inclusive language goes, other forms of Political Correctness also go.
Ain't we making great progress. And, in France, what does the nun point to as the problem. Materalism. Materalism is a symptom, not a cause.[/QUOTE] Interesting compromise. I know this was a hot topic with James Dobson. Do you know what he thought of the Holman?
In any event it appears that these new versions are generally popular with scholars, even in supposedly conservative denominations like the conservative branch of the SBC, etc. It shows the direction evangelicalism power elites seem to be taking.
Check your group out, everybody (or at least a lot of people) thinks their group is unique, that its happening to "someone else".
2005-01-10 06:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]Persecution and marginalization of the Church, while certainly not good things in themselves, can be used by God for good. Specifically, I think open persecution forces Christians to take stock of who their real enemies are, and they build up a fortress mentality, which protects the physical and doctrinal integrity of the Church. The situation in the US today, in which you have 'soft' or less-obvious persecution, coupled with heretics in the churches who are insidiously changing doctrine from within, is a much worse predicament for the Church than blatant and heavy-handed repression.[/QUOTE] Saints are hammered out on the anvil of hard times. If you had outright religious persecution in France you'd see a new wave of Joan of Arc's.
2005-01-10 06:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]The Southern Baptist Church has just produced a new translation of the Bible, the Holman Christian Standard Bible. It's destined to become a very popular Bible. And, of course in Baptist churches, it will replace the KJV. For an idea of its nature, it uses "gender inclusive language" in 194 verses were even the moderaly liberal NIV uses masculine language.
The NIV itself is being replaced by the New NIV, where gender inclusive language is the rule. You know where gender inclusive language goes, other forms of Political Correctness also go.
Ain't we making great progress. And, in France, what does the nun point to as the problem. Materalism. Materalism is a symptom, not a cause.[/QUOTE] Do you really think a gender-inclusive translation will influence even one person?? IMO, gender-inclusive writing and speech is pretty much standard in publishing and academia so not to use it for a newer Bible translation will only make the translation needlessly anachronistic and out-of-synch with contemporary speech. Frankly, the people who will even read the Bible will most likely hold a conservative Christian worldview anyway. Reading things like "humankind" in place of "mankind" won't, IMO, have a vitiating effect.
2005-01-10 07:43 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Interesting compromise. I know this was a hot topic with James Dobson. Do you know what he thought of the Holman?
I have no clue.
In any event it appears that these new versions are generally popular with scholars, even in supposedly conservative denominations like the conservative branch of the SBC, etc. It shows the direction evangelicalism power elites seem to be taking.
The Holman Bible is the fruit of the SBC. And, yes, it does show the direction the elites are taking the church. That's where most of the older denominations have already gone. Meanwhile, the older denominations are breaking now in producing a stench.
Check your group out, everybody (or at least a lot of people) thinks their group is unique, that its happening to "someone else".[/QUOTE]
Even well-meaning Christians compromise to avoid offending (naive to the fact that the offended want to be offended and will never be appeased until you've totally abandoned your beliefs). The Holman Bible pushes inclusive language as far as it possibly can without being so much of a shock that SBC churches would reject it. I mean, there's nothing really vulgar like refering to God as s/he.
2005-01-10 07:47 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Jack Cassidy]Do you really think a gender-inclusive translation will influence even one person?? IMO, gender-inclusive writing and speech is pretty much standard in publishing and academia so not to use it for a newer Bible translation will only make the translation needlessly anachronistic and out-of-synch with contemporary speech. Frankly, the people who will even read the Bible will most likely hold a conservative Christian worldview anyway. Reading things like "humankind" in place of "mankind" won't, IMO, have a vitiating effect.[/QUOTE]
Yes, gender-inclusive language will influence people, even if just incrementally. Would you insist that water cannot drown a person because any drop by itself can't drown someone? The Bible is more than just a drop to Christians. If it were just a drop, the Bible would be just another TV episode or another newspaper article to a Christian.
Anachronistic? What is proper is timeless. In a world of so-called Affirmative Action, do you object to equal rights for whites as anachronistic?
What good does it do that mostly conservatives read the Bible? Liberals read the Bible too, and conservatives aren't as conservative as they use to be.
Many of these changes aren't as innocuous as mankind to humankind (soon to be huminkind, or some such thing). First, it can never be excused to change any part of the Bible for Political Correctness, just in principle. If the Greek and Hebrew text uses a masculine term, the English translation should also.
As a practical matter, inclusive language in some Bible versions has corrupted intended messages. Some Bible versions have obscured prophesies about Jesus by changing masculine terms to neutral terms. Or, even worse, something like changing "he" to the plural "they" (for lack of a singular pronoun).
The Bible teaches a social order and different roles for men and women. Inclusive language undermines that. Inclusive language will make all the more people dismiss these lessons and accept absurd interpretations for when the Bible teaches politically incorrect things about men and women.
Someone willing to corrupt the Bible for Political Correctness will not stop at inclusive language. After society becomes accustomed to these 21st-century inclusive corruptions, we can expect other changes, such as changing the Bible to not condemn homosexuality. For that matter, when Paul warns against letting not letting women teach or usurp authority over men, that'll be gone. There's at least one modern translation that blatantly changes the race of a white person to black.
From your message, I can conclude that you don't consider the Bible (and thus Christianity) to be important. But, I remind you that the fall of Christianity is going hand-in-hand with teh fall of the white race. It is the Christian teaching of different roles for men and women that led to whites reproducing enough to preserve the race. And, it is this that inclusive language attacks. What's up with these pagan White Nationalists attacking Christianity while ignoring that it's the white conservative Christians having the most children?
2005-01-10 16:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]From your message, I can conclude that you don't consider the Bible (and thus Christianity) to be important. But, I remind you that the fall of Christianity is going hand-in-hand with teh fall of the white race. It is the Christian teaching of different roles for men and women that led to whites reproducing enough to preserve the race. And, it is this that inclusive language attacks. What's up with these pagan White Nationalists attacking Christianity while ignoring that it's the white conservative Christians having the most children?[/QUOTE]Actually Jack was expressing the general Catholic attitude that scriptural issues aren't that important to the laity, which does seem generally true compared to Protestants committed to [I]sola scripta [/I]and the priesthood of believers, although I'm sure Walter has his spin and maybe his own position on it.