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Women as pastors

Thread ID: 16213 | Posts: 4 | Started: 2005-01-06

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friedrich braun [OP]

2005-01-06 23:37 | User Profile

Could someone point out why women should not be pastors?

What does the Bible say?

Thanks.

annalex

2005-01-07 00:14 | User Profile

The church is the bride and Christ is the bridegroom. The Vicar of Christ then should be a man, else his pastoral relationship with the church is misaligned.

Centinel

2005-01-07 00:25 | User Profile

1 Corinthians 14

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

jozen1

2005-01-07 00:47 | User Profile

[url="http://wildernessvoices.org/wp/index.php?p=12"]The Beauty of Silence[/url]

                I ran into something on a private board that seems to come up a lot. To respect the private nature of the board in question I will not be identifying where here, but I do wish to attempt to address the issue in my own feeble way while sharing what light my studies have brought to this issue and putting forth a possible explanation. Here is the part of the post in question:

[indent]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. -Paul, I Corinthians 14:34-35

How far backwards will you fling yourselves?

[/indent] How far backwards will you fling yourselves? It seems that Christ-haters really love to ply these verses to make us look like a bunch of backward barbarians beating our wives into submissive and continual silence. We are pictured as power hungry despots and our wives as simpering, submissive idiots that would rebel and assert themselves if only they had the brains or will to know better. Those who would accuse us of being like this are wrong. They understand neither us nor our God.

Only by taking these verses out of the context of the whole counsel of Scripture, and discounting human nature, the inherent dynamics of human relationships, and God’s design for the family can we arrive at the interpretation often implied by others. What these verses do in the context of Scripture, with human elements acknowledged, and properly plugged into God’s design for family is something else entirely.

In a previous entry I stated “…in dealing with humans, you cannot leave their humanity and human nature out of the question.” Remember that as we deal with these verses.

Please note, I am differentiating between a regular worship service and a bible study class where discussion occurs from all quarters, not church in the sense that one is in the building.

**God’s Design for the Family**

In Scripture we are given God’s design for the standard human family. Structure of the hierarchy is established and limits are set on each member of the family. There are many of these verses and since this is an article, not a book, I will leave each of you to his concordance should you wish to find them all.

Each member of the family has their roles and responsibilities to each other and to God. Scripture lays out groundwork for how husbands treat wives, wives relate to husbands, children to parents and parents to children. In our individualistic “do your own thing” society we may find some of these things unreasonable, but that is just us being more the children of our times than children of our Lord.

Basically, the familial organization is set up with the husband at the head, the wife following, and the children arrayed underneath their parents. A husband/father is ultimately responsible for his family (feeding, teaching, spiritual nourishment, leadership by example, etc.). It is he who will account to God if his family is starving spiritually, not his wife, and not the local pastor. It is he who will account to God for his children’s lack of education, not his wife (who may be their home school teacher), not the school teacher down the street. (Deut. 6:1-8) You get the idea.

I will confess when I was confronted with this I was horrified. I had come from a public school, mega-church style environment. Although many would have said I was a good parent and husband, and did, I was convicted. I realized that in God’s eyes, I was neither. I pictured myself before God passing the blame to someone else. I could hear the words of Adam echoing in my head, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Passing the buck for what God gave us to take care of; one of man’s earliest sins, and I stood guilty as charged.

The folks that would design the family another way do not take God at His Word, believe He actually said anything, or consider the Bible a “living document” that can and should be reinterpreted to fit the times. Since Scripture regarding us takes into account our human nature this would be a mistake. Why? We may have new toys and more creature comforts and wealth, but our nature has never, ever changed in all of the years of humanity’s existence. God speaks to the constants, not the fad of the times.

Jesus teaches us that in heaven none are given in marriage. Things will be different when our families can stand as the Lord’s children before Him. This earth is, obviously, not heaven. As we can each approach the Lord on an equal basis as His elect, our fleshly natures hold great sway here and, as such, must be taken into account and ways provided for us to deal properly with them in our relationships with each other.

God in Scripture has often dealt with families and households in addition to specifying many aspects of what a godly household should look and act like. The family is important to God and He has provided guidance in Scripture to both strengthen and protect them.

**The Human Dynamic**

Remember when I said, “…in dealing with humans, you cannot leave their humanity and human nature out of the question”? Here is where we put that to work. God has set the members of families with separate places. God is our Creator, He knows who we are, He understands us, and understands how we work.

For instance, women and men approach intimacy differently. This difference, so plainly evident in nature, spawned the “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” book, among others. In general, a man approachs intimacy first through his eyes (Job 31:1), then emotionally bonding as the man gets to know a woman. He can be motivated by being needed (that white knight thing) and to some extent his mate’s need and approval will always be large motivators. Women, on the other hand, are different. Women want someone they can talk to, someone to understand, someone with whom they can share, someone to meet their needs. God already knew this, of course, and planned accordingly to protect the families of His children.

With the stage now set let’s take a closer look at those verses:

[indent]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

[/indent] Women are not to set themselves forward as the family comes to meet for worship. They are subject to their husbands and fathers in this world, despite the fact that they are actually in regards to election, salvation, and those heavenly issues, equal. The fact that this Scripture is not meant to degrade women in that respect is informed by the whole counsel of God and practice of the early church where all were referred to as brethren. By making the women brothers, not sisters, they were seen as equal in heavenly terms while plainly different here in this earthly life. Regardless what the present day priests of equality would have us believe, this is real, godly diversity.

[indent]And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

[/indent] Here we come to the meat of this passage, which coupled with an understanding of human nature leads us to the “why” of these verses. “Let them ask their husbands at home” – why? The husband is ultimately responsible for the spiritual nurturing of the family, so him dealing with his wife’s questions is a matter of obedience. That alone should be enough, but let’s look deeper at why we might be commanded to act in this fashion in the first place. For the sake of discussion we will discount this obedience issue, to look at other issues that arise in this passage.

We have established that women have a differing hierarchy of intimacy. Talking, listening and filling their needs is a huge part of what is intimate to them. Let me also state that spiritual matters, those dealing with our souls, are pretty much the most intimate conversations a woman or man can have, ever.

So, if my wife is sitting in church and feels a need to learn something in a spiritual vein, to converse and be taught on it, that most intimate of all things on this earth, is it not reasonable that she should turn to me her husband and not another man? I should say so. As head of the family I have responsibilities. If there is a spiritual need in the household, it is incumbent on me to go get the answers from our elders if I do not have them and then spiritually feed my family. My wife will have demonstrated her need for me and I will have been supplying her needs deepening our love and intimacy as a couple. The working out of this verse in obedience shows that God supplies reward to His children as result of their obedience…and what a reward deepening the love between husband and wife is! If the woman is your unmarried daughter, would you have her develop intimacy with a man not her husband or would you guard her till such time as her husband can nourish her in the spirit? Men, take seriously the precious task with which the Lord has entrusted you.

This verse also carries judgment.

*… for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.* If my wife is speaking in church, then I have failed her. Period. Failed her so badly that she has in spiritual desperation become disobedient to Scripture because of being spiritually starved to death by me. I will have sent her seeking to another man for the intimacy I did not and would not give her. The shame here would be mine as her husband because I abdicated my God-given responsibility to my wife, my helpmeet provided by God. A similar rationale would apply to my daughters. It is said that women who work in strip clubs often do so unconsciously looking for the approval of men, usually because they did not receive it from their fathers. Are we to turn our daughters into the spiritual equivalent of a stripper, seeking what they so desperately need that we would not provide? God forbid this should be!

Wives, ask of your husbands. You will be the helpmeet God designed you to be by helping your husband be the husband God commands him to be. You will show how you need him, and he will have an opportunity to supply your most intimate of needs. Daughters, if you have no husband, ask of your father. God has commanded him to spiritually nurture you. What a joy to have the hearts of the children turned to their parents and parents’ to their children.

I believe that a good part of this verse’s purpose is the lighting of a fire under husbands and fathers. Although the object of the verse is the woman, it is actually aimed at the husbands and fathers of the church. It is shameful that we not be about our task, so that our families are out begging for what we should be joyfully and gladly giving. The spiritual and relationship rewards of obedience for all concerned are vast.

**The Better Way**

Our culture, in perfect step with its values, would seemingly prefer a wife to develop intimacy with others in exchange for speaking in church. Unfortunately, many churches today are in full agreement on this point (whether consciously or not) and either do not appreciate the elegant understanding God has of our situation, or are just plain hijacked by pop psychology, the culture of the day. Personally, just looking at this situation from a cold, secular profit/loss standpoint, I think our culture is ripping off both men and women.

God in his infinite wisdom has a better way. He understands us, loves us and truly wants the best for us. Can we say that about our culture?

Reposted from [url]www.wildernessvoices.org[/url]