← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Cosmotheist
Thread ID: 16144 | Posts: 21 | Started: 2005-01-02
2005-01-02 00:27 | User Profile
[url="http://www.gaianet.fsbusiness.co.uk/gaiatheory.html"]http://www.gaianet.fsbusiness.co.uk/gaiatheory.html[/url] Quote:
| In the early 1960's, James Lovelock was invited by NASA to participate in the scientific research for evidence of life on Mars. His job was to design instruments, capable of detecting the presence of life, which could be sent on a spacecraft to Mars. This wasn't straightforward, since it was hard to know what to test for: any life forms on Mars may be radically different from those on Earth. |
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> It was life processes, the cumulative actions of countless organisms, that were controlling the atmosphere. And viewed from outer space, the mass effect of these processes was that **the Earth itself appeared as a living entity** - especially in comparison with its dead neighbours. Lovelock had a sudden realisation that the Earth could best be described as a kind of super-organism:
"For me, the personal revelation of Gaia came quite suddenly - like a flash of enlightenment. I was in a small room on the top floor of a building at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. It was the autumn of 1965 ... and I was talking with a colleague, Dian Hitchcock, about a paper we were preparing ... It was at that moment that I glimpsed Gaia. An awesome thought came to me. The Earth's atmosphere was an extraordinary and unstable mixture of gases, yet I knew that it was constant in composition over quite long periods of time. Could it be that life on Earth not only made the atmosphere, but also regulated it - keeping it at a constant composition, and at a level favourable for organisms?" (1991)
[url="http://www.gaianet.fsbusiness.co.uk/gaiatheory.html"]www.gaianet.fsbusiness.co.uk/gaiatheory.html[/url]
2005-01-02 02:19 | User Profile
To me planet Earth is like being inside of a submarine one hundred feet under water, once you run out of food, energy, water, oxygen and so on you die.
For a long time now mother Earth has been telling us that we are a bunch of screw ups and no one is paying attention, she is now getting angry with her kids.
2005-01-02 03:30 | User Profile
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
2005-01-02 05:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]....For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. ..... - St. Paul, Romans 1:18-32, ESV[/QUOTE] [font=Verdana]If God handed you a book, would you put it down not reading it because you felt that The Bible provided all the answers? We are on the threshold of a revolution in thought. We are on the verge of beginning to read the universe like a book. [/font] [font=Verdana]This ââ¬Åbookââ¬Â of the universe has a plot and a story line. Cosmotheism uses this natural wonder of life around us as it's holy writing. By reading it, you see the thoughts and personality of the author ââ¬â the Creator. You see the mirror of the face of the Creator clearly. There are universal moral principles written there, which religion has struggled to describe for eons of time. Cosmotheism translates this into a REAL religion -- maybe the most real thing ever done yet by man. [/font] [font=Verdana]The writings of men are like false idols compared to what is written in the universe. All the writings and desires of men must fall away to admit the true pure light coming from the universe itself. This is the true danger of false idols -- they can obscure that which motivated their construction in the first place. You can end up worshiping a book of men, a statue carved by a visionary, rather than the true power behind these things which gave rise to them. Science fundamentally and brutally destroys idols for the coming of this higher power in its real, down-to-Earth form.[/font]
2005-01-02 07:51 | User Profile
Well, the earth does resonate at 7.8 hz. It was the nazi Dr Schumann who discovered that, but let that be our little secret.
Resonance alone does not confer life. The halftime bell at a football game is resonant but not necessarily alive.
2005-01-02 19:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE]If God handed you a book, would you put it down not reading it because you felt that The Bible provided all the answers? We are on the threshold of a revolution in thought. We are on the verge of beginning to read the universe like a book. [/font] [font=Verdana]This ââ¬Åbookââ¬Â of the universe has a plot and a story line. [/QUOTE] Catholics have no problem with reading the universe like a book. We observe Nature in order to infer the will of Nature's God. It's called the "natural law." Catholic theology contains an exquisitely developed exposition of the natural law, developed by some of the greatest minds who have ever lived over a period of two thousand years.
[QUOTE]Cosmotheism uses this natural wonder of life around us as it's holy writing. By reading it, you see the thoughts and personality of the author ââ¬â the Creator. You see the mirror of the face of the Creator clearly. There are universal moral principles written there, which religion has struggled to describe for eons of time. Cosmotheism translates this into a REAL religion -- maybe the most real thing ever done yet by man.[/QUOTE]
No shit?
Was Dr. Pierce the first to reveal that to an ignorant world?Wow! And here I thought Thomas Aquinas had a thing or two to say on the subject.
Note here that you posit the existence of a Creator. Thus you accept that there is something above and outside the universe.
[QUOTE]The writings of men are like false idols compared to what is written in the universe. All the writings and desires of men must fall away to admit the true pure light coming from the universe itself. This is the true danger of false idols -- they can obscure that which motivated their construction in the first place. You can end up worshiping a book of men, a statue carved by a visionary, rather than the true power behind these things which gave rise to them. Science fundamentally and brutally destroys idols** for the coming of this higher power in its real, down-to-Earth form.[/QUOTE]
Nonsense. You are the one making an idol here - of nature. Gaia? It's just goddess worship in modern guise. The worship of Nature instead of Nature's God.
St. Paul has your number.
So which do you worship - Gaia or the One who created Gaia ex nihilo?
2005-01-02 23:55 | User Profile
[size=3][font=Arial][color=#000000]Walter, does Catholic theology address issues such as:[/color][/font][/size]
[list=1] [][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]Every element was created in the stars. We are literally ââ¬Åstardustââ¬Â.[/size][/font][/color] [][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]The Universe was not spoken into existence but has evolved over 14 billions of years.[/size][/font][/color] [][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]DNA and other evidence of the various races of man.[/size][/font][/color] [][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]The difference in evolutionary advancement of the races.[/size][/font][/color] [*][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]The dysgenic affect of inter-racial breeding.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]I would really like the exquisitely developed exposition on these issues.[/size][/font][/color] [/list][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]Dr. Pierce was not the first to suggest that God is revealed in nature. The Vedic scriptures teach this, as did Aristotle.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]Yes, we Cosmotheists do believe in God, but **we don't believe that the Creator exists outside the universe**. Many theories exist of other dimensions, but I don't believe that there is any empirical evidence. Do you know of a place outside the universe?[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]**God isnââ¬â¢t up there, over there, someplace else, transcendent. God is here, a part of all this, immanent**. [/size][/font][/color]
[QUOTE][color=#000000][font=Arial][size=3]**The tangible Universe is the material manifestation of the Creator**. All the blazing suns of the firmament; the formless gas between the stars; the silent, frozen mountain peaks of the moon; the rustling trees of earthly forests; the teeming creatures of the dark ocean depths; and man are parts of the Creator's material manifestation.[/size][/font][/color][size=3][font=Arial][color=#000000]**But the Creator has a spiritual manifestation, which is the Urge toward the One Purpose.** The Urge lies at the root of all things and is manifested in the relations between all things.[/color][/font]
[/size] [size=3][font=Arial][color=#000000]The Urge is in the tenuous gases of the void, for they have a purpose, which are the flaming suns and all the planets, which form from them. The Urge is in the earth, for it has a purpose, which is the realm of plants and animals which flourish on it. **And the Urge is in man, for he has a purpose, which is higher man.** - The Path 2:2-4[/color][/font][/QUOTE] You are making too much of the use of the term Gaia. I didn't choose the term, **scientist James Lovelock chose to use that term**. The article merely suggests that the Earth is more like a living organism than a hunk of rock with animals living on it. Please read the articles if you're going to dispute them.
**To Cosmotheists, the world isnââ¬â¢t simply a set of interrelated concrete phenomena**. There is[font=Arial] more - the[/font][/size][font=Arial][size=3] Creatorââ¬âand this Creator infuses and permeates the world. It is part of everything, and everything is part of It. **The Creator's spirit propels the universe forward and makes it holy.
**[/size][/font][font=Arial][size=3][QUOTE= Walter Yannis]So which do you worship - Gaia or the One who created Gaia ex nihilo?[/QUOTE] [/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=3]
[/size][/font][font=Arial][size=3]
We don't use the term Gaia in a theological sense.[/size][/font][font=Arial][size=3]
We serve the Creator.
[/size][/font][font=Arial][size=3]
Do you worship Jesus, or the material manifestation of Jesus?
Why do you make a [/size][/font][font=Arial][size=3]distinction?[/size][/font]
2005-01-03 07:31 | User Profile
Cosmo:
The case for a transcendent God Who created the universe ex nihilo is compelling. I refer you to Aquinas, whose thought encompasses modern science as an afterthought of theology.
There is no more fundamental philosophical difference than paganism vs. monotheism. All else flows from that. The really big fight for the past 4,000 years has been monotheism struggling to raise mankind from the pagan cesspool. Our differences are therefore much greater than any split between the Jewish Bolsheviks or the German Nazis, much less the mindless neocon Freepers and their comic book blood feud with the "liberals."
We are philosophical enemies.
Since you are a committed pagan, and since this is a Christian site, it would seem clear that you're in the wrong place.
Please go away. I suggest the Phora or some other such place, where I'm sure you'll have lots of fun yammering on about the sublime mind of Dr. Pierce and his take on Hinduism with your fellow pagans.
Warmest regards,
Walter
2005-01-03 12:40 | User Profile
i DO BELIEVE THAT THIS SITE IS "FOR AND FROM THE COMMON MAN"
I don't believe that every "common man" (like myself) is a Catholic or believe in religion and black magic.
Therefore you are wrong by telling him that he should not be here.
If anything YOU are the one who should go to a holy molly site where you can pray with those there and be happy.
You don't need a religon in order to believe in the one that you call "God", I for one rather call it "The Force".
In my ten years in AOL I have given away five new computer and helped one more to fix her comp plus given out about $6,000 to those in the chat rooms.
What have you done as a "Christian"??????????
I'd rather help people as a common man and not as a "religious" individual.
Dominus corpus spiritus santis a domani , in il nombri del Padre dil Figlie dil spiritus santis, amen. Ben there done that.
"Religion should be in your heart and not your mouth",,, Ponce
2005-01-03 15:15 | User Profile
[size=2]Paganism thinks of itself as positing a god who is free from the 'restraints' that Christian thought imposes, but, in reality, it is pagan thought that seeks to limit God.
[/size]
[QUOTE=Cosmotheist][size=2][color=#000000][font=Arial]Yes, we Cosmotheists do believe in God, but we don't believe that the Creator exists outside the universe. Many theories exist of other dimensions, but I don't believe that there is any empirical evidence. Do you know of a place outside the universe?[/font][/color][/size][size=2]
So the great Creator, the source of all things, has no existence or reality separate from His creation? He is merely, and exclusively, manifested in material terms in our universe? Since we haven't been able to conduct a controlled experiment proving that there is anything beyond or outside our universe, then obviously God must be trapped within what we can perceive?
This theology is what seeks to limit God, not Christianity.[/size]
[QUOTE=Cosmotheist] [size=2]To Cosmotheists, the world isnââ¬â¢t simply a set of interrelated concrete phenomena. There is[/size][font=Arial][size=2] more - the[/size][/font][/size][font=Arial][size=2] Creatorââ¬âand this Creator infuses and permeates the world. It is part of everything, and everything is part of It. The Creator's spirit propels the universe forward and makes it holy. [/size][/font][size=2] [/size] [font=Arial][size=2]There is nothing here that a Christian does not believe. We draw our very existence from God. At every moment of every day, we (and the entire universe) are continuing to exist because He is willing us to do so. This is, in my mind, more profound than the 'God's in the rocks, God's in the trees' view of the pan- and cosmotheists.[/size][/font][font=Arial][size=3] [/size][/font][font=Arial][size=3] [/size][/font][size=2][QUOTE=Cosmotheist][/size][font=Arial][size=2] Do you worship Jesus, or the material manifestation of Jesus? [/size][/font][size=2] [/size] [font=Arial][size=3][size=2]Yes.[/size] [/size][/font]
2005-01-03 23:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Cosmotheist]Walter, does Catholic theology address issues such as:
Every element was created in the stars. We are literally “stardust”. The Universe was not spoken into existence but has evolved over 14 billions of years. DNA and other evidence of the various races of man. The difference in evolutionary advancement of the races. The dysgenic affect of inter-racial breeding.
I would really like the exquisitely developed exposition on these issues.[/QUOTE]
I tell you what, Cosmo, since the burden of proof is on you, before any of us put out any effort, why don't you start with your exquisitely developed exposition on your pantheism's moral code, how it is derived and supported.
2005-01-04 02:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]...the burden of proof is on you.....[/QUOTE] Each of us bear the burden of proof of what we believe. The distinction here is a belief based on rational faith based on the discoveries of science, versus a "blind" faith based on a book of "revelation".
I'll be happy to explain Cosmotheism once again, seeing as some here are lothe to ***put out any effort***.
[QUOTE]...your exquisitely developed exposition...[/QUOTE] Do you realise that I was mocking the pretentions of Walter? I do not claim to have "equisitely developed expositions". What I do have are the teachings of [url="http://www.cosmotheism.net/library/Cosmotheism.pdf"]Cosmotheism.[/url] We don't claim that our "scriptures" are either divine or holy. They point toward the universe as the supreme revelation of the Creator's Will. Go ahead, put out some effort and read them. They aren't nearly as long or nebulous as The Bible and you might be surprised by how farmiliar the concepts are to You. Creator - God. The Urge - The Holy Spirit. The One Purpose - The Will of God. Godhood - Communion, Heaven, "nirvana". [QUOTE]how it is derived and supported.[/QUOTE] Our moral code is derived from first hand observation of reality and it is supported by biology, anthropology, history, etc. Every field of science has somthing to tell us about the Creator.
Tell me; do you disagree with this verse?
[QUOTE]The difference between true reason and false reason is this: **True reason seeks to guide man's actions in accord with the immanent consciousness of the Whole**, while false reason does not.
The man or woman of true reason **seeks order in all things**, and he shuns chaos. He is pleased by a harmonious relationship between all the elements of his life and the world. **He rejects** that which clashes and does not fit, **that which is alien**.
He is happy in the knowledge that what was true and good yesterday will be true and good tomorrow. Through order and harmony, he seeks true progress, which is the ascent of the Path of Life; but he shuns frivolous change, which destroys the harmony between the past and the future.
** He loves truth**, and he hates falsehood.
** He loves beauty**, and he hates ugliness.
** He loves nobility in all things**, and he hates baseness.
And all these predispositions of the man or woman of true reason **are like rays thrown out by the Divine Spark which burns in his soul**. And this Divine Spark is the immanent consciousness of the Whole. **It is the presence of the Creator's Urge in him**. -- The Path 6:1-8[/QUOTE]
2005-01-04 03:42 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]
Since you are a committed pagan, and since this is a Christian site, it would seem clear that you're in the wrong place.
[/QUOTE]
Haven't you figured out yet that debate is the lifeblood of these discussion forums?
2005-01-04 04:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Bardamu]Haven't you figured out yet that debate is the lifeblood of these discussion forums?[/QUOTE]
With a "Christian" yes but with a Christian fanatic? NO
2005-01-04 06:00 | User Profile
[COLOR=Indigo][B] - "The man or woman of true reason seeks order in all things, and he shuns chaos. He is pleased by a harmonious relationship between all the elements of his life and the world."[/B][/COLOR]
Izzat so?
How do you square that with the Darwinian concept of eternal struggle between species - that some species die out while some others survive and mutate into new forms over time, and that's supposedly how new species come into being.
"Harmony" is a Christian-creationist ideal. What possible use could evolutionists have for "harmony" - it stands in the way of Darwinian progress!
Petr
2005-01-04 06:02 | User Profile
[COLOR=DarkRed][B] - "Haven't you figured out yet that debate is the lifeblood of these discussion forums?"[/B][/COLOR]
I must agree with Bardamu on this one. If we Christians are confident in our cause, we shouldn't be afraid of some pagan who presents his case with dignity and without obscenities and hysteria.
Petr
2005-01-04 15:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]I must agree with Bardamu on this one. If we Christians are confident in our cause, we shouldn't be afraid of some pagan who presents his case with dignity and without obscenities and hysteria.[/QUOTE]
Essentially I agree with you, Petr. Not to speak for Walter, who we all know is more than capable of speaking for himself, but I am sure he is simply recalling past experiences here on this board where you had numerous posters simply attacking orthodox Christianity day in and day out without any desire to enter into any kind of discussion or debate. As you or anyone else can imagine, that sort of thing does get old after a while.
Nevertheless, as you state Cosmo is not hysterical so I think it is best here to present the orthodox Christian case against his supposed philosophy, which to me appears, in essence, to be pretty straight forward New Ageish pantheism (mysticism + systems theory, etc.). Seems to me the focus of our position should be on Creation, the personal nature of God, especially as it relates to the historical Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God. To my mind this will highlight the differences most clearly.
2005-01-04 16:47 | User Profile
Of what value is belief in anything without evidence?
Guiding one's life by reason and evidence is the only way to avoid self-delusion. The track record of this practice speaks for itself (e.g., the true-to-life miracles of modern science).
This is why I don't believe in paganism any more than in Christianity. Until someone points to some evidence for any of it, it's all just make-believe for adults in my book.
That doesn't mean a God doesn't exist, however. Simple logic tells us that something is self-existent. We can then ask: Is that "something" natural or supernatural? No one knows yet. What I think is exciting is the possibility that theoretical physics, which has successfully predicted such experimental discoveries as antimatter and quarks, might someday unearth the ultimate fundamental laws of existence. The acquisition of such knowledge might shed some light on whether or not existence as we know it was created or has always existed.
2005-01-04 17:23 | User Profile
[I][B] - "Of what value is belief in anything without evidence?"[/B][/I]
Without [B]faith [/B] one could not even drink a glass of water. Only "blind faith" enables us to believe that there exists a world outside our minds, or that this universe isn't only [I]maya[/I], an illusion, as the Hindus believe.
Petr
2005-01-04 18:24 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Cosmotheist]The distinction here is a belief based on rational faith based on the discoveries of science, versus a "blind" faith based on a book of "revelation"....Tell me; do you disagree with this verse? The difference between true reason and false reason is this: True reason seeks to guide man's actions in accord with the immanent consciousness of the Whole, while false reason does not....The man or woman of true reason seeks order in all things, and he shuns chaos....He is happy in the knowledge that what was true and good yesterday will be true and good tomorrow. Through order and harmony, he seeks true progress, which is the ascent of the Path of Life; but he shuns frivolous change, which destroys the harmony between the past and the future. He loves truth, and he hates falsehood. He loves beauty, and he hates ugliness. He loves nobility in all things, and he hates baseness.And all these predispositions of the man or woman of true reason are like rays thrown out by the Divine Spark which burns in his soul. And this Divine Spark is the immanent consciousness of the Whole. It is the presence of the Creator's Urge in him.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Cosmo. Please point me to the 'science' that proves or reveals these things.
2005-01-07 00:18 | User Profile
You keep putting words in my mouth. Read what I really said. [QUOTE]...belief based on rational faith based on the discoveries of science...[/QUOTE]and [QUOTE]Our moral code is derived from first hand observation of reality and it is supported by biology, anthropology, history, etc. Every field of science has somthing to tell us about the Creator.[/QUOTE]Science is the search for truth - the systematic observation of reality. I'm simply trying to make a sharp distinction between rational faith based on observation of reality and blind faith based on fables.
I'm sure that you believe or have faith that I am a human with two eyes, communicating with you via the internet. That is a rational faith because observation of reality has taught you that only humans speak english, that humans have two eyes, and that computers cannot communicate unless connected to one another in some way.
If I told you that I was a three eyed monkey communicating with your computer via telepathy and you believed it, that would be an **irrational and blind faith.
**
What if (like Moses and Paul) I said, "You have to believe me, I speak for God Himself"? I would like you to consider Cosmotheism not because I have a personal revelation from God, but because God is revealed in the universe.
we Cosmotheists reject the urge to personalize God by giving the Creator a fictional history and other anthropomorphic characteristics. **Rational observation of the tangible universe tells us that there is a Creator. ** Although observation of reality can reveal the Creator's purpose and the Creator's method, it says nothing about God's body, clothing, death, resurrection, angels, heaven, etc.