← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Happy Hacker
Thread ID: 15629 | Posts: 10 | Started: 2004-11-12
2004-11-12 16:02 | User Profile
My Church, a conservative (a relative term) Southern Baptist church, 100% white (save for a few non-white children adults bring), has announced this year's Holiday Dinner. Every year, the Sunday school classes have a Christmas dinner. This gives us the oppertunity to dress in Christmas clothes and fellowship with the families.
Holiday Dinner? Do we not want to offend any Jewish members by using the C-word?
I talked to one of the organizers and apparently no one had thought about "Holiday" not meaning Christmas. These are such witless people that they just flow with the degenerating culture, oblivious to where it is taking them. It is also a lesson in the worthlessness of the sermons provided by the minister that the members of his church are so obtuse in spiritual and cultural matters.
The sad thing is, my church could be almost any "conservative" church. The liberal churches are busy blessing same-sex unions, well ahead of the culture.
2004-11-12 16:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker] I talked to one of the organizers and apparently no one had thought about "Holiday" not meaning Christmas. These are such witless people that they just flow with the degenerating culture, oblivious to where it is taking them. It is also a lesson in the worthlessness of the sermons provided by the minister that the members of his church are so obtuse in spiritual and cultural matters.[/QUOTE]Sad, its fairly typical. I think most people don't even bother to think. They have "Holiday" dinners now everywhere at work, school, etc. Why not Church?
Its part of the general obtuseness towards culture and in general people like Francis Schaeffer derided so much.
I think its worth probing around though for the roots of this thing. The people at the bottom may be just witless, but there are people at the top I am pretty sure who have quietly encouraged it. I can think of a number of ways this could happen. But the main way would be just pointed inaction, It would be easy now wouldn't it for the SBC to issue a poublic resolution on the matter after all.
It also might be interesting to see how many of our so-called evangelical and other "Church" schools have gone along with this "Holiday" thing, for example. I would wager quite a few, and I can guarantee you these people know what they're doing.
2004-11-12 17:55 | User Profile
It may be an evangelical thing too. Many fundies consider Christmas "too Catholic" and view it as a holiday with some pagan customs mixed in. The hardline independent fundamental Baptists (the people who pass out Chick tracts) seem to have the most aversion to Christmas, and their attitude has probably made inroads in some pockets of the SBC.
The anti-Christmas sentiment in recent years seems to parallel the anti-Halloween sentiment of these same folks. Until recently, Halloween was viewed by most as an opportunity to blow off some steam and let the kids have some fun. Nobody took it for anything more than a quaint folk holiday.
But the rise of neo-paganism in recent years means now there is a growing pagan subculture that takes Halloween and Yule seriously in their pagan contexts, hence the reactionary attitude on the Religious Right.
2004-11-12 17:59 | User Profile
I have a standard response whenever anyone says anything to me about 'the Holidays', whether it is the 'holiday season,' a 'holiday party', or a 'holiday sale.' I always ask, 'Oh really? Which holiday?' To which they invariably reply -- 'Christmas.' To which I always respond, 'Then why isn't it just called a 'Christmas' Party (or whatever)?'
This is not terribly confrontational, but it at least makes them examine their assumptions.
2004-11-12 18:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Centinel]Many fundies consider Christmas "too Catholic" and view it as a holiday with some pagan customs mixed in. This is one of those areas where Christianity just can't win. If the Christians were extremely zealous when they converted the natives and got them to give up their existing practices, then it proves that Christians are terrible, and thus illegitimate. But, if the Christians encouraged them to merely Christianize their existing pagan practices, then it proves the Christian rites are merely dressed-up paganism, and Christianity is, thus, illegitimate. [quote=Centinel] But the rise of neo-paganism in recent years means now there is a growing pagan subculture that takes Halloween and Yule seriously in their pagan contexts, hence the reactionary attitude on the Religious Right.[/QUOTE] I read an interesting article (which I now can't find) that stated that there is actually an extremely good case to be made that the timing of Christmas is NOT because of pagan influence at all, and that it was well-established before the Christians had any contact with any pagan peoples that celebrated Yule. There is an old Jewish tradition that all great prophets die on the same date on which they are conceived. Thus, if Jesus died in the spring, that would mean he was conceived in the spring. Add nine months to a spring conception, and you've got a winter birthdate. The early Christians followed this tradition and had set a winter birthdate for Jesus very early.
2004-11-12 19:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Centinel]It may be an evangelical thing too. Many fundies consider Christmas "too Catholic" and view it as a holiday with some pagan customs mixed in. The hardline independent fundamental Baptists (the people who pass out Chick tracts) seem to have the most aversion to Christmas, and their attitude has probably made inroads in some pockets of the SBC.
Of course you're right here. To the Churches which follow sola scripta, generally the fundamentalist Protestants, observance of Christmas has no biblical authorization and thus is not a real Church event. The Puritans for that reason did not observe Christmas. Inasmuch as it is celebrated we celebrate it just as a Cultural event. So the argument against "Happy Holidays" is really a cultural, not an ecclestiastical one, at least from this point of view.
That said, it sure bespeaks a tonedeaf cultural sense at the very least, against the modern attacks against our Christian cultural heritage.
But the rise of neo-paganism in recent years means now there is a growing pagan subculture that takes Halloween and Yule seriously in their pagan contexts, hence the reactionary attitude on the Religious Right.[/QUOTE]Yes if Churches thought about what they were really saying by doing away with Christmas dinners but keeping Halloween and other Holoidays - whether they argue its no rap against their heavenly mindedness, it certainly seems to me that such Churches are no earthly good.
2004-11-13 01:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Centinel]It may be an evangelical thing too. Many fundies consider Christmas "too Catholic" and view it as a holiday with some pagan customs mixed in.
Now after talking with several planners, it's not the case that they objected to the term Christmas. They're just becoming accustomed to using the word "holiday" instead of Christmas.
The anti-Christmas sentiment in recent years seems to parallel the anti-Halloween sentiment of these same folks. Until recently, Halloween was viewed by most as an opportunity to blow off some steam and let the kids have some fun. Nobody took it for anything more than a quaint folk holiday.
I know at least two of the people who planned the "Holiday" dinner object to Halloween. The rise of neo-paganism might be the reason. But, not because they're trying to fight paganism, but just the opposite. They're trying to find ways to express their faith without actually offending any pagans. Objecting to Halloween is high in symbolic value without actually promoting anything that pagans would object to. A Pagan hardly cares if you won't let your kids Trick-or-Treat. But, they do care if you object to the state blessing same-sex unions. Just like a pagan doesn't care if you use the term "holiday" but they find "Christmas" offensive.
Although, if a school had a "Christmas Party", I wouldn't be too shocked to hear that there's a "fundamentalist" Christian behind a complaint. I would expect such a a thing from a cult member, like the Jehovah Witnesses.
2004-11-13 02:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]Now after talking with several planners, it's not the case that they objected to the term Christmas. They're just becoming accustomed to using the word "holiday" instead of Christmas. That's how it usually works. Most people are just creatures of habit. Which is how a few can change the behavior of many.
Besides, Christmas is supposed to be a time of peace and goodwill. Not the occasion when people tempermentally are most prone to put on their culture war armor.
I know at least two of the people who planned the "Holiday" dinner object to Halloween. The rise of neo-paganism might be the reason. But, not because they're trying to fight paganism, but just the opposite. They're trying to find ways to express their faith without actually offending any pagans.
Now that sounds like they [B]are[/B] being PC aware. Put on your doubletalk detectors, if they say they aren't changing Christmas for the same reason - so not to offend the pagans.
Objecting to Halloween is high in symbolic value without actually promoting anything that pagans would object to. A Pagan hardly cares if you won't let your kids Trick-or-Treat. But, they do care if you object to the state blessing same-sex unions. Just like a pagan doesn't care if you use the term "holiday" but they find "Christmas" offensive. Excuse me HH. The only people practically that object to Christmas aren't pagans. They aren't even Muslims. They're the one's that wear the Star of David, and the self styled "multicultural experts" (not really much difference here in sensibilities between the last two).
Although, if a school had a "Christmas Party", I wouldn't be too shocked to hear that there's a "fundamentalist" Christian behind a complaint. I would expect such a a thing from a cult member, like the Jehovah Witnesses.[/QUOTE] Extremely unlikely. These days the small fundamentalist cults are by and large more sensitive to the de-Christianization of our culture than anyone, and of its unpatriotic nature. I haven't heard a legal beep of this kindfrom a Jehovah's Witness or hardcore fundy in years.
I think even the early Puritan's objection to Christmas in the beginning was mostly just a reaction at the time to the very hard straights they had been subjected to in England from the established Anglicans, which led them to be a bit contrary. It was just a brief period in history, and was abandoned fairly quickly, never gaining historical/cultural traction.
2004-11-13 04:14 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]> But, not because they're trying to fight paganism, but just the opposite. They're trying to find ways to express their faith without actually offending any pagans.
Now that sounds like they [B]are[/B] being PC aware. Put on your doubletalk detectors, if they say they aren't changing Christmas for the same reason - so not to offend the pagans.
If I was unclear, it is my belief about their unconscious behavior, not their claim, that they're trying to express their faith without offending pagans.
Excuse me HH. The only people practically that object to Christmas aren't pagans. They aren't even Muslims. They're the one's that wear the Star of David, and the self styled "multicultural experts" (not really much difference here in sensibilities between the last two).
I'll give you that. But, the insitutions in our culture have been so quick to retreat from Christmas in the last several decades that it's hard to see who is attacking.
Extremely unlikely. These days the small fundamentalist cults are by and large more sensitive to the de-Christianization of our culture than anyone, and of its unpatriotic nature. I haven't heard a legal beep of this kindfrom a Jehovah's Witness or hardcore fundy in years.
The Jehovah's Witness organization does not believe in celebrating Christmas.
2004-11-13 05:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]If I was unclear, it is my belief about their unconscious behavior, not their claim, that they're trying to express their faith without offending pagans. OK I understand you. And I think you're wrong BTW about their objections to Halloween. A lot of fundy's are getting nervous about Halloween these days and its pagan origins, now that paganism is being taken seriously again. Its definitely not just to avoid "offending" the pagans.
I'll give you that. But, the insitutions in our culture have been so quick to retreat from Christmas in the last several decades that it's hard to see who is attacking. Its hard to see who is attacking? Read Vdare's War On Christmas. (I think its posted here even.)
The Jehovah's Witness organization does not believe in celebrating Christmas.[/QUOTE]You're right. But you were talking about complaining about school events.
I've heard Jehovah's witnesses in the past do various things that went to court, like avoiding saying the pledge of allegiance (they avoid pledging allegiance to all wordly institutions), but they certainly haven't been the ones raising a stir lately.