← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · friedrich braun
Thread ID: 15564 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2004-11-05
2004-11-05 20:46 | User Profile
Why Americans Hate Democratsââ¬âA Dialogue The unteachable ignorance of the red states. By Jane Smiley Updated Thursday, Nov. 4, 2004, at 3:24 PM PT
The day after the election, Slate's political writers tackled the question of why the Democratic Partyââ¬âwhich has now lost five of the past seven presidential elections and solidified its minority status in Congressââ¬âkeeps losing elections. Chris Suellentrop says that John Kerry was too nuanced and technocratic, while George W. Bush offered a vision of expanding freedom around the world. William Saletan argues that Democratic candidates won't win until they again cast their policies the way Bill Clinton did, in terms of values and moral responsibility. Timothy Noah contends that none of the familiar advice to the partyââ¬âmove right, move left, or sit tightââ¬âseems likely to help. Slate asked a number of wise liberals to take up the question of why Americans won't vote for the Democrats. Click here to read previous entries.
I say forget introspection. It's time to be honest about our antagonists. My predecessors in this conversation are thoughtful men, and I honor their ideas, but let's try something else. I grew up in Missouri and most of my family voted for Bush, so I am going to be the one to say it: The election results reflect the decision of the right wing to cultivate and exploit ignorance in the citizenry. I suppose the good news is that 55 million Americans have evaded the ignorance-inducing machine. But 58 million have not. (Well, almost 58 millionââ¬âmy relatives are not ignorant, they are just greedy and full of classic Republican feelings of superiority.)
Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States, especially in the red states. There used to be a kind of hand-to-hand fight on the frontier called a "knock-down-drag-out," where any kind of gouging, biting, or maiming was considered fair. The ancestors of today's red-state voters used to stand around cheering and betting on these fights. When the forces of red and blue encountered one another head-on for the first time in Kansas Territory in 1856, the red forces from Missouri, who had been coveting Indian land across the Missouri River since 1820, entered Kansas and stole the territorial election. The red news media of the day made a practice of inflammatory lyingââ¬âdeclaring that the blue folks had shot and killed red folks whom everyone knew were walking around. The worst civilian massacre in American history took place in Lawrence, Kan., in 1862ââ¬âQuantrill's raid. The red forces, known then as the slave-power, pulled 265 unarmed men from their beds on a Sunday morning and slaughtered them in front of their wives and children. The error that progressives have consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of ignorance in America. Listen to what the red state citizens say about themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. They know who they areââ¬âthey are full of original sin and they have a taste for violence. The blue state citizens make the Rousseauvian mistake of thinking humans are essentially good, and so they never realize when they are about to be slugged from behind.
Here is how ignorance works: First, they put the fear of God into youââ¬âif you don't believe in the literal word of the Bible, you will burn in hell. Of course, the literal word of the Bible is tremendously contradictory, and so you must abdicate all critical thinking, and accept a simple but logical system of belief that is dangerous to question. A corollary to this point is that they make sure you understand that Satan resides in the toils and snares of complex thought and so it is best not try it.
Next, they tell you that you are the best of a bad lot (humans, that is) and that as bad as you are, if you stick with them, you are among the chosen. This is flattering and reassuring, and also encourages you to imagine the terrible fates of those you envy and resent. American politicians ALWAYS operate by a similar sort of flattery, and so Americans are never induced to question themselves. That's what happened to Jimmy Carterââ¬âhe asked Americans to take responsibility for their profligate ways, and promptly lost to Ronald Reagan, who told them once again that they could do anything they wanted. The history of the last four years shows that red state types, above all, do not want to be told what to doââ¬âthey prefer to be ignorant. As a result, they are virtually unteachable.
Third, and most important, when life grows difficult or fearsome, they (politicians, preachers, pundits) encourage you to cling to your ignorance with even more fervor. But by this time you don't need much encouragementââ¬âyou've put all your eggs into the ignorance basket, and really, some kind of miraculous fruition (preferably accompanied by the torment of your enemies, and the ignorant always have plenty of enemies) is your only hope. If you are sufficiently ignorant, you won't even know how dangerous your policies are until they have destroyed you, and then you can always blame others.
The reason the Democrats have lost five of the last seven presidential elections is simple: A generation ago, the big capitalists, who have no morals, as we know, decided to make use of the religious right in their class war against the middle class and against the regulations that were protecting those whom they considered to be their rightful preyââ¬âworkers and consumers. The architects of this strategy knew perfectly well that they were exploiting, among other unsavory qualities, a long American habit of virulent racism, but they did it anyway, and we see the outcome nowââ¬âCheney is the capitalist arm and Bush is the religious arm. They know no boundaries or rules. They are predatory and resentful, amoral, avaricious, and arrogant. Lots of Americans like and admire them because lots of Americans, even those who don't share those same qualities, don't know which end is up. Can the Democrats appeal to such voters? Do they want to? The Republicans have sold their souls for power. Must everyone?
Progressives have only one course of action now: React quickly to every outrageââ¬âred state types love to cheat and intimidate, so we have to assume the worst and call them on it every time. We have to give them more to think about than they can handleââ¬âto always appeal to reason and common sense, and the law, even when they can't understand it and don't respond. They cannot be allowed to keep any secrets. Tens of millions of people didn't voteââ¬âthey are watching, too, and have to be shown that we are ready and willing to fight, and that the battle is worth fighting. And in addition, we have to remember that threats to democracy from the right always collapse. Whatever their short-term appeal, they are borne of hubris and hatred, and will destroy their purveyors in the end.
Jane Smiley is the author of many novels and essays. She lives in California.
[url]http://slate.msn.com/id/2109218/#ContinueArticle[/url]
2004-11-05 21:03 | User Profile
[QUOTE=friedrich braun]Why Americans Hate Democratsââ¬âA Dialogue The unteachable ignorance of the red states. By Jane Smiley Updated Thursday, Nov. 4, 2004, at 3:24 PM PT
Slate asked a number of wise liberals to take up the question of why Americans won't vote for the Democrats. Click here to read previous entries.
I say forget introspection. It's time to be honest about our antagonists. [B]Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States, especially in the red states........[/B]
............The error that progressives have consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of ignorance in America. [B]Listen[/B] [B]to what the red state citizens say about themselves[/B], the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. [B]They know who they areââ¬âthey are full of original sin and they have a taste for violence.[/B]
.........[B]Here is how ignorance works: First, they put the fear of God into youââ¬âif you don't believe in the literal word of the Bible, you will burn in hell. [/B] Of course, the literal word of the Bible is tremendously contradictory, and so you must abdicate all critical thinking, and accept a simple but logical system of belief that is dangerous to question. A corollary to this point is that [B]they make sure you understand that Satan resides in the toils and snares of complex thought and so it is best not try it.[/B]
.......... The history of the last four years shows that [B]red state types, above all, do not want to be told what to doââ¬âthey prefer to be ignorant. As a result, they are virtually unteachable. [/B]
........Third, and most important, when life grows difficult or fearsome, [B]they[/B] B [/B] [B]encourage you to cling to your ignorance with even more fervor.[/B]
Progressives have only one course of action now: React quickly to every outrageââ¬âred state types love to cheat and intimidate, so we have to assume the worst and call them on it every time. We have to give them more to think about than they can handleââ¬âto [B]always appeal to reason and common sense, and the law, even when they can't understand it[/B] and don't respond. They cannot be allowed to keep any secrets.
Ho hum. Shades of Paul Begalla's (however you spell it) 2000 assertion was the red zone where all the Yahoo's (not computer types) who loved to lynch or drag Negroes to death and burn crosses was. Of course BTW this is perfectly derived from the Frankfurt School as long time epitimized by the New York Intellectuals.
Jane Smiley is the author of many novels and essays. She lives in California. Of course. Just another ho-hum coastal jeremiad on flyover country.
You really want to know why the red zone exists. People like her. Everyone here knows those attitudes day in and day out from the blue zone elite, although most really can't articulate the reasons for them, (for reasons which MacDonald explains so incisively).
Thanks Freddy. You've really got my dander up today. BTW, I suspect you put this up cause you agree with her, but that's OK. I can tolerate Canadian effete snobbishness, if only cause its so weird, at least from what I'm used to.
2004-11-05 21:05 | User Profile
What a stupid article.
With conclusions drawn like Miss Jane's here, the "progressives" are destined to continue to lose everything from here on out. More of the same "they didn't vote for us because they're just too stupid and racist to realize how much better and smarter we are than the other guys." I guess it never occurs to these "progressives" that maybe they're the stupid ones.
Screw 'em. I have absolutely no tolerance for these elitist snobs.
2004-11-05 21:25 | User Profile
Texas Dissident and Okiereddust,
After reading several progressive assessments, there is really no common ground with most. Agreement upon opposition to the WAR is still based upon a very different framework of viewpoint. The problem remains - there are tons of them and few paleo's left.
The "so called" conservative voting block is just as confused as the loony left.
Article resent with proper attachment. No reply yet, we'll see if it gets published.
SARTRE
2004-11-05 22:10 | User Profile
[B]I can tolerate Canadian effete snobbishness, if only cause its so weird, at least from what I'm used to.[/B]
I'm 6' feet an 210lbs and I work out 4 times a week. Additionally, no one would regard my lifestyle, mannerisms, bearing, etc. as effete; and neither am I a snob. Thanks for the gratuitous, stupid insults. :thumbsup:
As to the article, I probably agree with some of her analysis but my guess is that in terms of our world-view and ideology and desired outcomes we couldn't be further apart. I posted that piece as a curiosity.
2004-11-06 01:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=friedrich braun][B]I can tolerate Canadian effete snobbishness, if only cause its so weird, at least from what I'm used to.[/B]
I'm 6' feet an 210lbs and I work out 4 times a week. Additionally, no one would regard my lifestyle, mannerisms, bearing, etc. as effete; and neither am I a snob. Thanks for the gratuitous, stupid insults. :thumbsup: Hey, lighten up Freddy. Most blue zoners I've met take it as a compliment. And I'll take your advice and not pick a fistfight with you if we ever meet in person.
As to the article, I probably agree with some of her analysis but my guess is that in terms of our world-view and ideology and desired outcomes we couldn't be further apart. I posted that piece as a curiosity.[/QUOTE]
It was a real interesting article. In fact all your articles have been real interesting lately, if I haven't pointed that out yet.
2004-11-07 21:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SARTRE]Texas Dissident and Okiereddust,
After reading several progressive assessments, there is really no common ground with most. Agreement upon opposition to the WAR is still based upon a very different framework of viewpoint. There is that fundamental difference yes. I've heard the differences between right-wing and right-wing isolationism as follows. The left opposes American involvement in world affairs because the world is too rotten a place for us to get bogged down in. The left opposes American involvent in world affairs because America is too rotten for the world to get bogged down dealing with us.
The problem remains - there are tons of them and few paleo's left. No doubt. And its very easy to start getting so involved in with left-wing arguments that we start losing our own sense of identity and start thinking, speaking, and acting like Communists.
That IMO explains a lot of the intrafraticidal wars that have cropped up in these places
The "so called" conservative voting block is just as confused as the loony left.
Yup
Article resent with proper attachment. No reply yet, we'll see if it gets published. SARTRE[/QUOTE]
Let's keep our fingers crossed, although personally that sounds almost as bogus as the letter that was rejected because it was signed with the wrong type of ink, etc. IMO.
2004-11-08 12:36 | User Profile
The "so called" conservative voting block is just as confused as the loony left.
I think that's true. Now... how do you convice "conservatives" of the correctness of conservatism. I recently had a "conservative" preaching the value of "women's rights" and the accomplishments of Lincoln.
2004-11-09 06:11 | User Profile
I have never understood the hatred expressed towards President George W. Bush by some Americans and some Europeans.
He is a leader. And fears nothing.
At least he is not a former communist and hater of his own people - like the ââ¬Ëleaderââ¬â¢ of Germany at this time. America is fortunate in this respect.
Most white American males voted for the return of George Bush. I would consider that as significant and correct.
Never assume liberals will allow more freedom. For they ban and they ban and determine how you must think by force of unnatural law. They will imprison you merely for your thoughts. This happens in liberal Europe.
And European men are being murdered by muslims. And white teenagers are torturted to death by Pakistani and Arab immigrant criminals. And the weak and fat and queer politicians do nothing.
President Bush is not as ââ¬Ëstupidââ¬â¢ as some claim and believe. And certainly no pawn of Israel.
Bring George W Bush to Europe and let him be Our Leader.
Mentzer
2004-11-09 13:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Mentzer]I have never understood the hatred expressed towards President George W. Bush by some Americans and some Europeans.
He is a leader. And fears nothing.
At least he is not a former communist and hater of his own people - like the ââ¬Ëleaderââ¬â¢ of Germany at this time. America is fortunate in this respect.
Most white American males voted for the return of George Bush. I would consider that as significant and correct.
Never assume liberals will allow more freedom. For they ban and they ban and determine how you must think by force of unnatural law. They will imprison you merely for your thoughts. This happens in liberal Europe.
And European men are being murdered by muslims. And white teenagers are torturted to death by Pakistani and Arab immigrant criminals. And the weak and fat and queer politicians do nothing.
President Bush is not as ââ¬Ëstupidââ¬â¢ as some claim and believe. And certainly no pawn of Israel.
Bring George W Bush to Europe and let him be Our Leader.
Mentzer[/QUOTE]
This is the most idiotic post I've ever seen.
2004-11-09 14:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Mentzer]I have never understood the hatred expressed towards President George W. Bush by some Americans and some Europeans. Well, a lot of it is based on the fact that he is a war-mongering, philo-semitic moron, for starters. [QUOTE=Mentzer]He is a leader. And fears nothing. Which means he's an idiot. There are some things which should be feared. Pointless worldwide war is one of those things.[QUOTE=Mentzer]At least he is not a former communist and hater of his own people - like the ââ¬Ëleaderââ¬â¢ of Germany at this time. He's not a former communist, but he is a [I]current[/I] liberal, and he is certainly a hater of his own people (if by 'his people' you mean the white, Christian West.)[QUOTE=Mentzer]Most white American males voted for the return of George Bush. I would consider that as significant and correct. I consider it yet more evidence that democracy is a terrible form of government.[QUOTE=Mentzer]Never assume liberals will allow more freedom. For they ban and they ban and determine how you must think by force of unnatural law. They will imprison you merely for your thoughts. This happens in liberal Europe. Let's go over this one more time -- slowly. George. W. Bush. Is. A. Liberal.[QUOTE=Mentzer]And European men are being murdered by muslims. And white teenagers are torturted to death by Pakistani and Arab immigrant criminals. And the weak and fat and queer politicians do nothing. And Americans are murdered by blacks and Mexicans. And the weak and fat and queer politicians do nothing.[QUOTE=Mentzer]President Bush is not as ââ¬Ëstupidââ¬â¢ as some claim and believe. And certainly no pawn of Israel. No pawn of Israel? Do you seriously believe that? The US is a permanent Israeli settlement.[QUOTE=Mentzer]Bring George W Bush to Europe and let him be Our Leader.[/QUOTE]Take him, please.
2004-11-09 15:22 | User Profile
Menzer? I took you to be smarter than this, were you drinking while writting this or are you a Jew who is coming out of the closet on this board.
2004-11-12 08:50 | User Profile
Pardon?
And what do you know about it?
Do not make ignorant statement.
However, if you voted Democrat. Or against George W. Bush. You did so with the majority of Jews and Blacks and Muslims in America. Kerry was defeated because white men and women decided so. Understand it and accept it.
And - what are you?
Of course, you have a leader you fail to acknowledge - I do not have such a strong leader.
Do not whine. And do not weep like a little girl. Face life. For you have not confronted anything yet.
Mentzer
2004-11-12 09:01 | User Profile
xmetalhead
The above post applies to you also.
Do not make any further errors regarding leadership.
Mentzer
2004-11-12 09:27 | User Profile
Quantrill
And what is your alternative?
Most American Marines and British Soldiers are enjoying the fight. Never forget that. Soldiers want to fight. They are trained professionals.
And they are eliminating the muslim hard-men. It is magnificent and it is correct. They teach the muslim a lesson in bravery and courage. They kill the cowardly neck-cutters without mercy - and that is proper.
Do not fool yourself. The American and British soldiers are men - you are not. They fight - you run.
Do not waste my time.
Mentzer
2004-11-12 13:31 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Mentzer]Most American Marines and British Soldiers are enjoying the fight. Never forget that. Soldiers want to fight. They are trained professionals.
Who gives a fig what they are or are not enjoying? Niggers enjoy rape, but that doesn't mean we encourage them in it. Killing Arab civilians in Mesopotamia, for no reason that has anything to do with the national interest, and when doing so is actually opposed to the national interest, is just plain immoral [B]AND[/B] stupid. The fact that U.S. and U.K. soldiers enjoy committing acts of counterproductive, evil imbecility, if true, would make me worry just a little bit less about those soldiers that won't be coming home, frankly. Fortunately, you are wrong about many, if not most, of the U.S. (and presumably U.K.) soldiers in Iraq. Of that there can be little doubt.
[QUOTE=Mentzer]Do not waste my time.
You are wasting our time with these childish, ignorant rants. Why don't you go trolling somewhere else?
2004-11-13 19:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]Who gives a fig what they are or are not enjoying? Niggers enjoy rape, but that doesn't mean we encourage them in it. Killing Arab civilians in Mesopotamia, for no reason that has anything to do with the national interest, and when doing so is actually opposed to the national interest, is just plain immoral [B]AND[/B] stupid. The fact that U.S. and U.K. soldiers enjoy committing acts of counterproductive, evil imbecility, if true, would make me worry just a little bit less about those soldiers that won't be coming home, frankly. Fortunately, you are wrong about many, if not most, of the U.S. (and presumably U.K.) soldiers in Iraq. Of that there can be little doubt.
You are wasting our time with these childish, ignorant rants. Why don't you go trolling somewhere else?[/QUOTE]
Kevin O'Keeffe
When you employ the term 'trolling' you illustrate weakness and ignorance. For it means you fear the opinion of the poster that disagrees with your view of the world. Others use the 'Nazi' label in order to subjugate and silence debate and discussion. It reflects badly on the habitual user of the labels rather than the intended target.
I state that your hatred of President Bush is irrational.
I state that the British and American troops care not for your opinion. They have the courage and life-affirmation that you appear to lack.
I state that you express more concern for the cowardly Arab knife-men, bombers and murderers, than for the European or the American soldier or the innocent by-stander.
I state that you fail to understand the Muslim and their murderous hatred for the American and European.
I am more correct than you would wish to acknowledge or want to believe. But such is the way of this world - some men are able and some are not.
Mentzer
2004-11-15 16:17 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Mentzer]When you employ the term 'trolling' you illustrate weakness and ignorance. For it means you fear the opinion of the poster that disagrees with your view of the world. Others use the 'Nazi' label in order to subjugate and silence debate and discussion. It reflects badly on the habitual user of the labels rather than the intended target.
Perhaps, but as an (Anglo-Aryan, as opposed to German) national socialist myself (click on my profile, if you like), I would be unlikely to denigrate one as a "Nazi." And it is as a national socialist that I find it very difficult to understand how any reasonable person, or at least a person with any business in a forum such as this one, could possibly support the re-election of George W. Bush, who's Presidency is little more than a subsidiary arm of Ariel Sharon's administration in Jerusalem, and which has done vitually nothing but harm the interests of Whites, both American and European, at every available opportunity (as I'm sure the members of the dominant Christian Nationalist faction here would agree).
Maybe I was a little unnecessarily rude to you, because your remarks reminded me of Gabrielle's, as you are a German (I believe; correct me if I'm wrong) and thus perhaps not as well-versed on the Bush administration as you might otherwise be, were you an American. If you truly knew the depths of Bush's treasonous criminality and utter subservience to the Zionist agenda, I find it very difficult to believe you would continue in this clearly misguided support for his abominable reign.
After his many crimes, the very least I could accept for Bush (and Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz, Perle & Feith) is immediate impeachment by the House of Representatives and subsequent conviction & removal from office by the Senate, followed by a criminal prosecution that upon conviction, would lead to their all spending the rest of their lives behind bars (although the more traditional punishment for treason is probably called for in the cases of these "men").
[QUOTE=Mentzer]I state that you express more concern for the cowardly Arab knife-men, bombers and murderers, than for the European or the American soldier or the innocent by-stander.
My sympathies lie equally with those who are assaulting Fallujah, and those who are defending her. They are both victims of Bush's and Sharon's imperialism.
[QUOTE=Mentzer]I state that you fail to understand the Muslim and their murderous hatred for the American and European.
If it were in my power, each and every Muslim in the USA (excepting the miniscule number of White American native Muslims; probably no more than 1,000 or so in the entire nation of nearly 300,000,000) would be [I][B]IMMEDIATELY[/I][/B] placed under arrest, and housed in tents until we could efect their deportation. They are our racial enemies (as are all who are not White) and thus have no place in ANY of our homelands, i.e. the USA, Canada, Europe, Australia and New Zealand. That does not mean, however, that I wish to send "our" military abroad in order to massacre each and every Muslim in the world, for they have the same rights to their lands and culture that we have to ours. But frankly, if that WERE Bush's policy, I would consider it a lot better than what we're seeing now, which seems almost to be a policy designed to accomplish nothing, other than the needless waste of American and British blood & treasure, and the perpetual (and greatly increased) enmity of the Arab people (including those who are not Muslims). What do you imagine our invasion of Iraq has, or possibly can, accomplish that is in any what beneficial to America and/or Britain?