← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · wild_bill
Thread ID: 15470 | Posts: 19 | Started: 2004-10-28
2004-10-28 18:41 | User Profile
(Continued from [url=http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?p=92920#post92920]Was Hitler A Christian[/url])
[QUOTE=neoclassical] - Adolf Hitler, in Bormann-Vermerke (transcribed by Martin Bormann), reprinted as Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 (H.R. Trevor-Roper, Trans.), New York: Farrar, Straus & Young, 1953, pages #48-51.
[url="http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/4885/hitler.html"]http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/4885/hitler.html[/url] [/size][/size][/QUOTE]
It should be noted that Martin Bormann has been recently exposed as a Soviet agent. Its no wonder he would be writing an anti-Christian book. The question is whether Bormann's telling the truth about Hitler or promoting his own agenda.
2004-10-28 18:50 | User Profile
Do you mean this article, wild bill? It's an interesting hypothesis, but I think it needs a lot more evidence than just that.
[url]http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2000/280013.shtml[/url]
Copyright é The Ukrainian Weekly, July 9, 2000, No. 28, Vol. LXVIII
[COLOR=Navy][SIZE=3]FACES AND PLACES
by Myron B. Kuropas[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Hitler's traitor, Stalin's spy[/SIZE]
One of the enigmas of World War II is the abhorrent and ultimately self-destructive behavior of the Germans during their occupation of Ukraine. Some historians believe that, had Hiltler's approach in Ukraine been more acquiescent, Stalin might have been defeated. Ukrainians had initially welcomed Hitler's army as liberators. Ukraine was also a wealthy storehouse of food and raw materials, supplies coveted by the Germans.
Was Nazi behavior the result of ignorance? Hardly. The German high command had been in contact with Ukrainian separatists since 1921, writes Alexander Dallin in his book "German Rule in Russia: 1941-1945, German contacts with Hetman Pavlo Skoropadsky following the first world war, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) during Col. Yevhen Konovalets' time and later with Col. Andrii Melnyk's OUN (M) and Stefan Bandera's OUN(B) were ongoing generally positive.
The architect of the pro-Ukrainian school of thought within the Nazi high command was Alfred Rosenberg, head of Aussenpolitisches Amt, the Nazi party's foreign policy office. Rosenberg's blueprint for Ukraine called for a united and autonomous state in close alliance with Germany. To attain such a state, he argued, "Ukrainian writers, scholars and politicians must be put to work for a revival of Ukrainian historical consciousness, so as to overcome what Bolshevik-Jewish pressure has destroyed." Planned was a new university in Kyiv, technical academies, the eventual elimination of the Russian language, the publication of Ukrainian literature, the extension of Ukraine to the Volga and Crimea, and the propagation of German culture and language.
"If we accepted in marshaling all political, psychological and cultural means to create a free Ukrainian state from Lvov to Saratov," Rosenberg informed Hitler, "then the century-old nightmare which the German people has been subjected to by the Russian Empire will be broken."
Hitler appointed Rosenberg Ostminister (Minister for the Occupied East) but vacillated between the Rosenberg position and the ideas of Martin Bormann, who favored a lebensraum policy based on the Nazi principle that all Eastern Europeans were inferior (untermenschen), unfit for self-rule. The sole purpose of the Slavs, he reminded Hitler, was to serve the genetically superior German Herrenvolk.
Bormann convinced Hitler that any German plan for a "Garden of Eden" in Ukraine demanded that: Ukraine be divided; Ukrainians receive little formal education; medical and sanitary services be limited severely; Ukrainian towns not be rebuilt; Germans be forbidden to live among Ukrainians.
Hitler adopted Bormann's proposals and, after invading the Soviet Union, awarded Bukovyna to Romania, formally incorporated Galicia into the General Government for Occupied Polish Territories, and placed eastern Ukraine within the newly created Reichskomissariat Ukraine. Appointed Reichskomissar was Erich Koch, a psychopath close to Martin Bormann.
Aware that he, as Ostminister, outranked Koch, Rosenberg met with the gauleiter prior to his posting in Ukraine. As Jurgen Thorwald reports in his book "The Illusion: Soviet Soldiers in Hitler's Armies," the meeting went badly for Rosenberg. Running out of Rosenberg's office, the Reichskomissar bumped into Carl Cranz, Rosenberg's press officer, who innocently offered to shake hands, saying: "May I congratulate you, Herr Reichskommissar, on the interesting and fruitful mission you will now be assuming."
"What mission do you mean?" growled Koch. "I mean the mission of leading such a biologically strong and valuable race as the Ukrainians back to national consciousness," Carl Cranz replied.
"My dear sir," Koch roared. "You must have read that in some provincial tabloid. Let me tell you this: the Ukrainians are Slavs through and through. They are going to be governed by makhorka, vodka and the knout." Koch remained true to his word. His bestial oppression of eastern Ukraine squandered any remaining good will the Germans may have enjoyed. Caught between Stalin's anvil and Hitler's hammer, Ukrainian nationalists established the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and battled both the Nazis and the Soviets.
Martin Bormann, a man very close to Hitler, engineered both the Jewish Holocaust and the Nazi terror in Ukraine. Was he a racist? A psychopath? Or did he have an agenda all his own?
Bormann was definitely a monster, but it now appears that he was also something else. He was a Soviet spy. Two-time Pulitzer prize winner Louis Kilzer persuasively argues in "Hitler's Traitor: Martin Bormann and the Defeat of the Reich" that "Bormann had been as valuable to Russia as 50 Red divisions. His value to Stalin began early." Mr. Kilzer notes: "In 1941, when Germany could have used millions of Ukrainian nationalists to defeat Soviet rule, Bormann decided that they deserved only 'enslavement and depopulation' ... Faced with the choice of genocide by the Germans or political domination by the Soviets, the Ukrainians chose to live, and by doing so ruined German hopes for an easy conquest."
In one of the most astounding espionage stories of the war, Mr. Kilzer describes the incredible escapades of the so-called "Red Orchestra," a spy ring operating out of Switzerland that regularly passed on information from the mysterious "Werther," a spy whose true identity remains murky. Werther provided the Soviets invaluable, almost instantaneous information regarding German military plans, often before Germany's front-line commanders were appraised. Whoever supplied this intelligence to the Soviets had to be extremely close to Hitler's inner circle. He was "the ultimate mole with the ultimate cover," a person who, according to Albert Speer, another Hitler confidant, sabotaged many well-planned German initiatives. After carefully reviewing the actions of a number of candidates close to Hitler and considering the views of many Western espionage experts familiar with Bormann, Mr. Kleizer concludes: "All the suspicions concerning Bormann by the spymasters over the years were valid. The pieces of the puzzle fit together. In Martin Bormann we have found Werther."
Was it in Stalin's interest to have Ukrainians turn on the Germans after initially treating them as "liberators?" Absolutely. Would Hitler have behaved differently had Herr Bormann not been around? Probably not, but, as is now clear, Bormann was Hitler's prime enabler, a man Speer believed should have been declared a "hero of the Soviet Union."[/COLOR]
2004-10-28 19:33 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Do you mean this article, wild bill? It's an interesting hypothesis, but I think it needs a lot more evidence than just that.
[url]http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2000/280013.shtml[/url]
Copyright é The Ukrainian Weekly, July 9, 2000, No. 28, Vol. LXVIII
[COLOR=Navy][SIZE=3]FACES AND PLACES
by Myron B. Kuropas[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Hitler's traitor, Stalin's spy[/SIZE]
................After carefully reviewing the actions of a number of candidates close to Hitler and considering the views of many Western espionage experts familiar with Bormann, Mr. Kleizer concludes: "All the suspicions concerning Bormann by the spymasters over the years were valid. The pieces of the puzzle fit together. In Martin Bormann we have found Werther."
Was it in Stalin's interest to have Ukrainians turn on the Germans after initially treating them as "liberators?" Absolutely. Would Hitler have behaved differently had Herr Bormann not been around? Probably not, but, as is now clear, Bormann was Hitler's prime enabler, a man Speer believed should have been declared a "hero of the Soviet Union." [/QUOTE] Interesting and fascinating hypothesis. Of course the proof's in the pudding. Bormann's actions certainly were stupid and catastrophic for the Third Reich, but so were an awful lot of things German did.
Having an inner circle of Nazidom working directly for the Soviet's opens up some fascinating speculations concerning not only the nature of the Nazi conduct of the war but the nature and origins of Nazi ideology itself - speculations which are right in line with what we presently have experienced with spy agencies infiltration of Nazi organizations, like the German National Democratic Party. But I'd have to look concretely and carefully at the case put together by Mr. Kleizer, along with those "views of many Western espionage experts familiar with Bormann" Kleizer bases his case on. What kind of evidence do they really have, and how do they refute the counter-arguments (such as what kind of motivation and incentive Bormann would have for embarking on such a risky mission, and one where he was in the end hung along with all the other high-ranking Nazi's anyway?
2004-10-29 01:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Do you mean this article, wild bill? It's an interesting hypothesis, but I think it needs a lot more evidence than just that. [/QUOTE]
I don't know if I had seen that particular article, but I've seen others like it. Anyway, one really has to wonder about some of the blunders comitted by Germany being caused by deliberate sabotage. From the character sketches I've read of Bormann, he seems a likely candidate.
2004-10-29 03:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]I don't know if I had seen that particular article, but I've seen others like it. Anyway, one really has to wonder about some of the blunders comitted by Germany being caused by deliberate sabotage. From the character sketches I've read of Bormann, he seems a likely candidate.[/QUOTE] I'll have to read that book. Initially, though there are figures that suspect Bormann, I would tend to just wonder if it was just due to the nature of his position as Hitler's personal secretary and most powerful man in the Third Reich, as well as his history, which naturally exposed him to endless jealousy and speculations of intrigue.
This article below sort of raises a few flags of mine too. Louis Kilzer is a bookwriter, looking for a big story. He must have immediately seen the commercial potential in a story about the "most mysterious man in the Third Reich" lured into working for "a beautiful young Jewish woman".
Bormann seems to have been widely hated within the Third Reich and blamed for its defeat. But that is not really surprising, considering how high-ranking Germans, especially after the war, are always trying to find a way to blame the defeat on Hitler. That though is a little transparent, and also Hitler was still somewhat of a popular figure in postwar Germany. Not so Bormann, who seems to be rather lacking in charisma.
[url=http://www.jewishsf.com/bk010413/sfahitler.shtml]Jewish spy helped defeat Hitler, writer to say at JCC[/url] ALEZA GOLDSMITH
Bulletin Staff
Did a Jewish spymaster aid in efforts that led to Hitler's destruction?
Not just a Jew, says two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Louis Kilzer, but a beautiful, young Jewish woman.
In his new book, "Hitler's Traitor," Kilzer deduces that the Moscow spymaster in charge of one of history's most effective Soviet agents and Hitler's greatest traitor, was a twentysomething chief operative named Maria Poliakova.
He also deduces that the great unknown traitor, who supplied Russians with strategic and tactical intelligence on the German army's strength, disposition and movement -- directly influencing the key Soviet victories at Stalingrad and Kursk-Orel -- was none other than Hitler's own right-hand man, his secretary Martin Bormann. In fact, the book is subtitled "Martin Bormann and the Defeat of the Reich."
Kilzer will explain his theories Wednesday to the Association of Former Intelligence Officers in San Francisco and will speak again on Sunday, April 22 at the Marin Jewish Community Center in San Rafael.
During a telephone interview from his Denver office, where he works as the sole investigative reporter for the Rocky Mountain News, Kilzer shared his conclusions.
He said it was known for some time that the Red Army had a spy strategically placed within the Third Reich. This spy was so highly placed that he was able to get Hitler's plans to Stalin within days, sometimes hours, of their issuance.
"But it was anyone's guess who it was," said the Yale graduate, even with the opening of previously top-secret World War II archives after the collapse of the Soviet Union. "Everyone seemed improbable."
Kilzer began to suspect Bormann in 1991 while he was researching "Churchill's Deception," published in 1994. While he was going through files at the former KGB headquarters in Moscow, Bormann's name continually popped up in material on Rudolf Hess, a deputy of the Third Reich.
Kilzer's curiosity was sparked.
"I couldn't put my finger on it, but I knew that something was a little strange -- well, a lot strange," he said.
Checking information on Bormann in the institute's computer, he asked the clerk for five folders on Hitler's secretary only to discover that they hadn't been properly catalogued and couldn't be located immediately.
"So longhand, on a yellow piece of paper I requested the folders," said Kilzer. "Six or seven months later I got access to material never seen before."
The files verified his hypothesis that Bormann was a constant "fly on the wall." As an investigator trying to break a story, who sold a book proposal to publishers merely on a hunch, the discovery "was serendipity."
At one point, for instance, he said, Bormann convinced Hitler to have stenographers in his meetings so that Hitler could "take credit for his victories" for posterity. As secretary and "chief architect of the Holocaust alongside Hitler," Bormann, of course, had access to all the notes.
"He's the only one that it could be," said Kilzer. "I'm convinced that he's the one. I lay up the reasoning in the last chapter, and a reader can take it or discard it. It's almost like a prosecutor's case and my readers are the jury."
As to Bormann's motive, Kilzer admits that's the one thing that he's "short on."
Kilzer continued his research at the National Archives, which was then in Washington, D.C. (now in Maryland), to follow up leads that Poliakova was Bormann's sophisticated spymaster.
Kilzer was so intrigued by this young woman -- the only one of her family not to be killed by Stalin and to subsequently progress in the Red Army intelligence -- that he plans to write his next book about her.
"She played a critical role in the defeat of Hitler," said Kilzer. "Maybe it's too extreme to say she played as big a role as Churchill or Roosevelt, but without her playing her role, the world would be vastly different today.
"And God gave her something more than just beauty and youth -- he made her a Jew.
"I'm delighted that Maria is Jewish," said Kilzer, who is not Jewish himself. "Somehow there's justice in that."
Louis Kilzer will speak at 1:30 p.m. Sunday, April 22 at the Marin Jewish Community Center, 200 N. San Pedro Road, San Rafael. $5 donation suggested. RSVP: (415) 444-8069.
"Hitler's Traitor: Martin Bormann and the Defeat of the Reich" by Louis Kilzer (307 pages, Presidio Press, $29.95).
2004-10-29 15:22 | User Profile
A good source:
Worm in the Apple
German Traitors and Other Influences That Pushed the World Into War: The little-known story of the men who destroyed Adolf Hitler's Germany Original edition: F. Lenz, self-published, 1952 Translated by Victor Diodon
[url]http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/worminapple/wa00.html[/url]
2004-10-30 00:55 | User Profile
Poor Alfred, He was a good man fighting for Europe from all I have read. It is sickening our government murdered him in 1945.
If only this had happened: [QUOTE]The architect of the pro-Ukrainian school of thought within the Nazi high command was Alfred Rosenberg, head of Aussenpolitisches Amt, the Nazi party's foreign policy office. Rosenberg's blueprint for Ukraine called for a united and autonomous state in close alliance with Germany. To attain such a state, he argued, "Ukrainian writers, scholars and politicians must be put to work for a revival of Ukrainian historical consciousness, so as to overcome what Bolshevik-Jewish pressure has destroyed." Planned was a new university in Kyiv, technical academies, the eventual elimination of the Russian language, the publication of Ukrainian literature, the extension of Ukraine to the Volga and Crimea, and the propagation of German culture and language.
"If we accepted in marshaling all political, psychological and cultural means to create a free Ukrainian state from Lvov to Saratov," Rosenberg informed Hitler, "then the century-old nightmare which the German people has been subjected to by the Russian Empire will be broken." [/QUOTE]
2004-10-30 03:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]I don't know if I had seen that particular article, but I've seen others like it. Anyway, one really has to wonder about some of the blunders comitted by Germany being caused by deliberate sabotage. From the character sketches I've read of Bormann, he seems a likely candidate.[/QUOTE] I picked up a copy of the book today and it certainly makes some interesting and persuasive arguments. Although it doesn't seem to find a "smoking gun" of positive evidence, it does seem to have a very good argument from the "negative" type of evidence, i.e. the process of exclusion. And in a number of way Bormann fits the bill, even his motive, as well as his mysterious escape to South America through Soviet territory.
In any case, the book paints an amazing portrait of equally devastating impact of both "Werther" and the above ground known impact of Bormann on the on the German war effort. Whether "Werther" actually was Bormann it does appear quite likely the two must have been closely related in some way.
2005-07-26 13:22 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]I'll have to read that book. Initially, though there are figures that suspect Bormann, I would tend to just wonder if it was just due to the nature of his position as Hitler's personal secretary and most powerful man in the Third Reich, as well as his history, which naturally exposed him to endless jealousy and speculations of intrigue.
This article below sort of raises a few flags of mine too. Louis Kilzer is a bookwriter, looking for a big story. He must have immediately seen the commercial potential in a story about the "most mysterious man in the Third Reich" lured into working for "a beautiful young Jewish woman".
Bormann seems to have been widely hated within the Third Reich and blamed for its defeat. But that is not really surprising, considering how high-ranking Germans, especially after the war, are always trying to find a way to blame the defeat on Hitler. That though is a little transparent, and also Hitler was still somewhat of a popular figure in postwar Germany. Not so Bormann, who seems to be rather lacking in charisma.[/QUOTE] I don't buy the Bormann as a Soviet agent theory. First of all, his entire source of power was built inside of the Third Reich and was based on personal loyalty to Hitler, why would he want Hitler to lose? Serving Hitler got Bormann mistresses, 10 different luxury cars, etc..what could the Soviets possibly offer him which could compete with that? Hitler losing means that Bormann loses! If he had really been a Soviet agent, the Soviets wouldn't have left him there to die. Bormann works for the Soviets and thus for his own quick death?? That is too bizarre and unnatural..
Bormann was certainly a man corrupt with power, but a traitor? NO WAY..
2005-07-26 13:33 | User Profile
[QUOTE=OttoR] If he had really been a Soviet agent, the Soviets wouldn't have left him there to die. [/QUOTE]
Pretty much sums it up.
2005-08-01 22:30 | User Profile
If I recall correctly, Bormann escaped/disappeared shortly before the war ended, and was never found.
The Soviets perhaps gave him a quiet exile somewhere? Or paid him off with a bullet, now that his utility was expired?
[QUOTE=OttoR]I don't buy the Bormann as a Soviet agent theory. First of all, his entire source of power was built inside of the Third Reich and was based on personal loyalty to Hitler, why would he want Hitler to lose? Serving Hitler got Bormann mistresses, 10 different luxury cars, etc..what could the Soviets possibly offer him which could compete with that? Hitler losing means that Bormann loses! If he had really been a Soviet agent, the Soviets wouldn't have left him there to die. Bormann works for the Soviets and thus for his own quick death?? That is too bizarre and unnatural..
Bormann was certainly a man corrupt with power, but a traitor? NO WAY..[/QUOTE]
2005-08-01 22:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=OttoR]I don't buy the Bormann as a Soviet agent theory. First of all, his entire source of power was built inside of the Third Reich and was based on personal loyalty to Hitler, why would he want Hitler to lose? Serving Hitler got Bormann mistresses, 10 different luxury cars, etc..what could the Soviets possibly offer him which could compete with that?
Maybe the attraction of working with people who were [B]real, successful[/B] socialists and despots, rather than only half-assed wannabees like Hitler and Co.
Hitler losing means that Bormann loses! If he had really been a Soviet agent, the Soviets wouldn't have left him there to die. Bormann works for the Soviets and thus for his own quick death?? That is too bizarre and unnatural..
Bormann was certainly a man corrupt with power, but a traitor? NO WAY..[/QUOTE]
See my answer to Angeleyes. Note though that according to the escape accounts, Bormann did manage to escape with the help of the Soviets, escaping to and through the Soviet Union.
2005-08-01 23:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angeleyes]If I recall correctly, Bormann escaped/disappeared shortly before the war ended, and was never found.
The Soviets perhaps gave him a quiet exile somewhere? Or paid him off with a bullet, now that his utility was expired?[/QUOTE]Thanks for pinging this thread. I'd missed Otto's.
Like everything else in Bormann's like, there seems to be a great deal of controversy and mystery about Bormann's end after WWII. Many thought he did in fact escape to Paraguay, and that the report of his death in 45 was a hoax designed to aid his escape. A search will quickly turn up this hypothesis such as this
[QUOTE]Bormann, Martin (bôr'män) , 1900ââ¬â1945, German National Socialist (Nazi) leader. He met Adolf Hitler in 1924 and soon became an important figure in the Nazi party hierarchy. He succeeded Rudolf Hess in Hitler's inner circle in 1941 after Hess's flight to Scotland. In 1942 he became Hitler's personal secretary. After Hitler's suicide in 1945, Bormann disappeared and was assumed dead. He was tried in absentia at Nuremberg and sentenced to death. [I]Rumors persisted, however, that Bormann had escaped to Argentina. [/I] In 1973, after identification of a skeleton unearthed in West Berlin, the West German government declared him dead, a suicide on May 2, 1945.
[url]http://www.answers.com/topic/martin-bormann[/url][/QUOTE]
2005-08-02 04:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Maybe the attraction of working with people who were real, successful socialists and despots, rather than only half-assed wannabees like Hitler and Co.
See my answer to Angeleyes. Note though that according to the escape accounts, Bormann did manage to escape with the help of the Soviets, escaping to and through the Soviet Union.[/QUOTE] You really think that the German government is lying about finding Bormann's skull in Berlin in 1972? I thought that the forensic evidence established a few years ago that it was almost 99.9 % certain that it was his skull.
Also, are you discounting the testimony of Hitler Youth leader Arthur Axmann who reportedly saw Bormann kill himself on the night of May 1st as they were both travelling in the same direction fleeing from the Bunker?
Honestly, I think Joseph Goebbels was the devoted Socialist and most likely to support Communism (his personal writings are full of admiration of Stalin), and I don't see Bormann as an intellectual at all.
Anyway, I thought there were stronger indications that the top Soviet spy was Erich Koch who had ruled the Ukraine with an iron fist and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Notice that he was NEVER given the death sentence. Perhaps the Soviets intervened to save their man who had done so much benefit to them by turning the Ukrainians against the Third Reich because of his brutal treatment of them.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Koch"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Koch[/url]
2005-08-02 04:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angeleyes]If I recall correctly, Bormann escaped/disappeared shortly before the war ended, and was never found.
The Soviets perhaps gave him a quiet exile somewhere? Or paid him off with a bullet, now that his utility was expired?[/QUOTE] But late in the war Bormann was effectively the head of the Nazi party and he had total control over who was permitted to see Hitler. I just can't understand how he would enter into treason under such favorable circumstances?
2005-08-02 08:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE=OttoR]You really think that the German government is lying about finding Bormann's skull in Berlin in 1972? I thought that the forensic evidence established a few years ago that it was almost 99.9 % certain that it was his skull. The West German gov't lie? Your lack of faith in allied gov't shocks me. :lol:
[QUOTE]Also, are you discounting the testimony of Hitler Youth leader Arthur Axmann who reportedly saw Bormann kill himself on the night of May 1st as they were both travelling in the same direction fleeing from the Bunker?[/QUOTE]That was the whole bone of contention. Before the skeletons mysteriously appeared at the right time (as if there aren't buried skeletons all over Berlin) his word was the only evidence that Bormann died.
[QUOTE] Honestly, I think Joseph Goebbels was the devoted Socialist and most likely to support Communism (his personal writings are full of admiration of Stalin), and I don't see Bormann as an intellectual at all. [/QUOTE] You do have to read Kilzer's book. Bormann was a strong socialist.
[QUOTE]Anyway, I thought there were stronger indications that the top Soviet spy was Erich Koch who had ruled the Ukraine with an iron fist and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Notice that he was NEVER given the death sentence. Perhaps the Soviets intervened to save their man who had done so much benefit to them by turning the Ukrainians against the Third Reich because of his brutal treatment of them.[/QUOTE]Koch was a Bormann protege. Don't know if the Soviet's and/or Bormann rememberd his kindness, but the top Soviet spy "Werther" had to be someone with constant access to headquarters, not runnibg around the Ukraine butchering peasants.
2005-08-02 08:23 | User Profile
[QUOTE=OttoR]But late in the war Bormann was effectively the head of the Nazi party and he had total control over who was permitted to see Hitler. I just can't understand how he would enter into treason under such favorable circumstances?[/QUOTE]Total control - a perfect way to keep Hitler in the dark about the suspicions others might have about him.
2005-08-04 01:44 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Total control - a perfect way to keep Hitler in the dark about the suspicions others might have about him.[/QUOTE] Alright, you make a convincing case, I ordered the book today!! :shocking:
2005-08-04 01:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=OttoR]Alright, you make a convincing case, I ordered the book today!! :shocking:[/QUOTE]Let me know what you think. The book, interestingly seems rather sympathetic to Hitler, at least vis a vis his underlings in the 3rd Reich and who was responsible for losing the war.