← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Pennsylvania_Dutch
Thread ID: 15448 | Posts: 14 | Started: 2004-10-26
2004-10-26 23:16 | User Profile
Some of you fellows, probably have oral traditions about slavery in your family, and how your ancestors handled black on black crime, and, deviant behavior among your families slaves.
I may have had a distant relative or two back up in the family tree who may have owned a slave or two---and---all I have ever heard is that they were more trouble than they were worth...:bag:. But, I would be curious to know what kind of legends some of you fellows have about dealing with crime and behavior problems with your families black slaves.
I read that Jefferson Davis who was a large scale slaveholder had a slave jury that decided punishment for offenders...
I also know before the Civil War that there was no such thing as black going to jail for a crime...
How would a black who killed or molested a black child be treated, or raped a black woman, or murdered another black?
I'm sure some of you fellows have heard some old family stories...
2004-10-27 01:55 | User Profile
I don't have any slave stories. I'm not aware that any of my ancestors ever played a role in bringing Africans to America. My family history in America goes back to before there were any United States.
Anyway, I'm sure blacks sometimes went to jail in the pre-civil war south.
2004-10-27 04:15 | User Profile
In Cuba my people had 46 slaves and in Puerto Rico where my 14 great grandfather was the first governor he had 234, I think, however, 196 were native indians from PR and not blacks.
By the way, I was raised at a sugar mill where 93% of the population were descendants from slaves, as a matter of fact they still lived in the same houses,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I don't know the name in english, is like a biggggg longggg house divided in little rooms, like apartments but with no water or toilet.
Last time I visited my dad in 99 we went back there for a visit and they still were living in the same place, looks like Castro didn't do much good for them.
Do I feel guilty about that?,,,,,,, at the time is what went on and I feel no more guilty now that I will feel guilty about Bush been president, is all part of life.
2004-10-27 07:01 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]I don't have any slave stories. I'm not aware that any of my ancestors ever played a role in bringing Africans to America. My family history in America goes back to before there were any United States.
Anyway, I'm sure blacks sometimes went to jail in the pre-civil war south.[/QUOTE] I'm just curious how black on black crime was dealt with by slave owners prior to the abolition of slavery. I doubt that the nature of black on black crime has changed much---or---has it?
2004-10-27 08:21 | User Profile
As I may have already mentioned, despite being born in Alabama, my great-great-great-grandfather was Gen. Phillip H. Sheridan, the Union general who ordered all the slaves of the Shenandoah Valley of northern Virginia to be freed up his occupation thereof. I am not aware of being descended from any slave owners (the first O'Keeffe from which I am descended came over to Virginia circa 1870).
Its kind of a shame, in some ways, to be a descendant of arguably the Union's third most destructive general in the War of Northern Aggression (after Grant and Sherman), but Gen. Sheridan was an absolutely merciless, genocidal White nationalist (he'd have made Himmler proud) with regard to the Indians (he literally coined the expression, or is at least credited historically with having done so, "the only good Indian is a dead Indian"). Oddly enough, I came across something he'd written, and I could have sworn I detected my own writing style, more-or-less. The power of genes? I saw a picture of him without a hat, from behind, and I can say that he and my father have identical skulls. It was like looking at a picture of my dad after he somehow travelled back in time to the 1860s....
2004-10-27 14:01 | User Profile
That's interesting about the general...but...I'm more curious about how black on black crime was handled by white slave owners.
I'm pretty well read in the history of western Virginia, including the colonial era.
Then maybe, a book or two, on animal husbandry published before the Civil War that dealt with the care and feeding of slaves or negroes from that point of view. But, I can't recall a "slave owners manual", although I'm sure they existed...I would think that sexual crimes between black slaves would have been too hot of a topic to publish in those days anyway. But, the problem must of existed...or the nature of black violent crime has changed?
2004-10-27 14:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]That's interesting about the general...but...I'm more curious about how black on black crime was handled by white slave owners.
I understand, but I just don't have any info on that. Being descended from one of the men who played one of the larger roles in ending slavery, or generally from others who were still in Ireland prior to 1865, we just didn't have many chances to own slaves.
[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]I would think that sexual crimes between black slaves would have been too hot of a topic to publish in those days anyway. But, the problem must of existed...or the nature of black violent crime has changed?[/QUOTE]
While we may both be too young to personally remember this (for it was still evident up through the early 1960s, until LBJ decimated our nation), the Blacks, when ruled firmly and with swift justice, by the reasoned and forceful hand of the White man, behaved themsevles one heck of a lot better than they do today. Frankly, White Supremacy and African colonialism is in the interests of the Blacks. It just doesn't happen to be in the interests of the Whites; what we Whites need is separation (as I'm sure you'll agree).
One point that may be of interest to you, which I recall from a history class I took at San Diego State, is that Black slaves WERE sometimes jailed. I got the impression, however, that this was often done at the discretion of the owner, rather than of the court system (presumably the owner paid a fee for his use of the public facilities). Additionally, every Southern states (and this lasted until some point in the 20th century, although I couldn't say when) had their own legal codes for Blacks. These were first known as the Slave Codes (as in Penal Code or Tax Code), but came to be known as the Black Codes. The Blacks had their own set of laws and punishments, totally different from what Whites had. Hope that helps....
2004-10-27 15:35 | User Profile
Being Pennsylvania Dutch, I got 'em on both sides of the Civil War because the Pennsylvania Dutch pioneered the Shenandoah Valley/western Virginia; I do know there was a communications breakdown that was never really fixed after the Civil War between Pennsylvania & Virginia/West Virginia.
Of course, I mentioned the Methodist Protestants before, who broke last and got back together first after the Civil War.
I think to the Pennsylvnia Dutch and the Scotch-Irish (the protestants) war is and was too [color=black]impersonal![/color]
I can't recall any mention of how slave owners dealt with black on black crime...for anyone who owned more than a dozen or so slaves it must have been a problem...particularly for those who owned 30-40 or more slaves.
I had an old friend of mine, now dead, whose family were large slaveholders in Virginia; if I recall he subscribed to my "more trouble than they were worth theory"...:smartass:
2004-10-27 20:56 | User Profile
The idea of stewarship is repellent to me.
Interestingly enough, Wm Faulkner got himself in quite a bit of trouble for saying the blacks were better off in the days of slavery.
I believe it: there were fewer questions in an alien society (for them) to answer, without the tools to do so.
2004-10-27 22:21 | User Profile
My Greatgrandfather, Josiah Joseph Kieffer, of what is now Jasper County South Carolina was a slaveowner. My grandmother remembered former slaves of his who stayed on after "freedom". JayJay as he was known was a soft touch and kind to animals, children and slaves .But he had been a sergeant in the Confederate Cavalry and was known to be a tough customer as were all the men in an agrarian society. The rare black and white criminal was treated harshly and the noose was not far in the background.
2004-10-28 20:10 | User Profile
I don't recall any specific slave stories from my family. I grew up often visiting my grandfather in Virginia, though, and I bet his attitudes are fairly representative of the thinking at that time. He harbored no animosity towards blacks; indeed he thought of them in an almost paternalistic fashion. He thought they were simple and impulsive, and that it was in everyone's best interests for them to be treated with both kindness and strictness, as you would treat children. (He also distrusted Jews, by the way.) My own father grew up around an elderly black couple (children of ex-slaves) who lived down the road from their farm in Virginia. He has very fond memories of them, as simple, illiterate, superstitious, and good-hearted. The children called them aunt and uncle in that affectionate Southern way, and they would often walk down to their little shack to help them with chores they had grown too old to do.
2004-10-28 20:24 | User Profile
The only thing in print that I know of is some mention of a slave jury that was used by Jefferson Davis.
Davis being the epitome of an enlightened farmer/planter formed his slaves into a jury to decide...back in the 1930's as part of a WPA Project a few of the still living former slaves recalled the slave jury when interviewed.
I wonder how widespread was the use of slave juries? Was black on black crime punished...I would think it would almost have to have been punished.
2004-10-28 20:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch] I wonder how widespread was the use of slave juries? Was black on black crime punished...I would think it would almost have to have been punished.[/QUOTE] Black on black crime was most certainly punished. Otherwise, you would risk anarchy, or at the very least, potential damage to valuable property. As far as I know, punishment was left to the discretion of the slaveholder, although for serious crimes, such as rape and murder, the courts may have been involved.
2004-10-30 09:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]Was black on black crime punished...I would think it would almost have to have been punished.[/QUOTE]
Of course it was punished, and probably quite severely! After all, slaves were considered highly valuable property, and can you imagine what they would have done to each other if not kept in check?