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Bad news in "Christian" music...

Thread ID: 15441 | Posts: 13 | Started: 2004-10-25

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weisbrot [OP]

2004-10-25 17:15 | User Profile

Never understood this thing for King's X or the Gaithers and Lowry, for that matter. Some evangelicals seem to buy anything with a Gawd label slapped on it, as the existence of latter-day Zion bears out. I remember a youth leader at my S.Bap. church who was known as "quite the catch" well into his thirties, this Julian fellow. He would have made John Edwards look like a he-man (even in spite of [URL=http://slate.msn.com/id/2108216/slideshow/2108085/entry/2108087/speed/100]this[/URL]. All the doddering widder wimmin and the beaming deb mothers alike just loved ol' Julian, meanwhile lapping up increasingly strident messages about "tolerance" and the meaning of "luv" from the Jesus freak crowd Julian indulged. The term "Breck Girl" doesn't begin to evoke the mincing wispiness of Julian's personal approach to "ministry". I spent most of my Young Life-age youth finding ways to hide out from the other youths under Julian's sway.

Sounds like Julian would have fit in real well with the Gaithers, if not King's X also...

[url]http://littlegeneva.com/badlands/index.php?p=28[/url]

Apostaste Atheist Negro Fags? “Awesome! Cool!” Filed under: General— Badonicus @ 5:20 pm One more time-racemixing is perversion. And it leads, ineluctably, to other perversions. And because Judeochristians have accepted the first perversion, they will come to accept the later ones. Interracial marriage leads to gay marriage. Acceptance of IR marriage leads to acceptance of gay marriage. Justifying your own hideous IR marriage leads you to speculate that it’s possible we’ll all be faggots in heaven. And digging hip, relevant, interracial Christian bands, leads you to declaring that it’s “awesome” and “cool” when you hear their music on David Letterman. Even years after their Negro lead singer very publicly announces that he’s gay and no longer believes in God.

Case in point-King’s X. I remember hearing about them years ago. They were THE band to like for hip, relevant Christians not that long ago. They had their Negro lead singer. They were openly Christian, but shunned the CCM label, and said they just wanted to make good music, period. And it wasn’t Amy Grant style music for wimps; these dudes rocked out. What wasn’t to like for relevant culture reclaimer types? King’s X was what it was all about, man. They got it. It wasn’t about sitting around reading your Bible all day, sheltering your kids, and running around in old fashioned clothes. It was about being out there; interacting with the world where they are, and speaking to them on their terms. They showed you could play at Cornerstone, and still be good enough to make the cover of Rolling Stone. And making the cover of Rolling Stone, for relevant culture reclaimer types, is about the same thing as having a dove rest on your shoulders after you’re baptized.

They lost favor with a few of their less relevant Christian fans back in 1998, when Doug Pinnick announced that he’s gay, but he thought God was cool with it. A few years later he clarified things- he’s been gay the whole time he was in the band, his bandmates always knew and accepted it, and he’s now an atheist.

So what’s a hip, relevant Christian to do when he hears a TV show playing music from a guy who boasts that he enjoys gay butt sex, blasphemes the name of Christ, and says there is no God? Do what these guys do, and rave about how awesome and cool it is.

...and not only that, butt this too...

[url]http://littlegeneva.com/badlands/index.php?p=9[/url]

Bill Gayther (Well, that explains Mark Lowry) Filed under: General— Badonicus @ 7:58 pm Anyone who knows anything about the Jesus Movement of the 1970’s is familiar with the song For Those Tears I Died (Come To The Water). It ranks right up there with Pass It On for sentimental heretical drivel, and like Pass It On, it became phenomenally popular. The song was so influential that its author has been called “the mother of Contemporary Christian Music". It was written by a sixteen year old girl, and the lyrics betray that, although you could be excused for thinking that an RTS grad wrote this:

And Jesus said come to the water and stand by my side I know you are thirsty you won’t be denied I felt every teardrop when in darkness you cried And I strove to remind you That for those tears I died

The song isn’t quite as popular as it once was, because the sixteen year old writer, Marsha Stevens, not long after that, became Marsha Stevens, “conservative Christianity’s worst nightmare - a Jesus-loving, Bible-believing, God-fearing lesbian Christian.” For years she’s had her own “ministry"-BALM, which stands for Born Again Lesbian Music. Here’s her website-be sure to check out the pictures of her and her bride, Cindy. I’m not sure if RC Sproul, Jr married them. Maybe, since his perversion of Galatian 3:28 means that once someone’s baptized they’re no longer male or female, but only Christian. Pretty sure it wasn’t Doug Wilson, since he only recently embraced gay marriage. But it might have been his colleague, Doug Jones, since he wrote almost 15 years ago that “the only grounds Scripture gives us for prohibiting a marriage is religious in nature. Believers are not permitted to marry unbelievers…” Doesn’t really matter, because the important thing is not being a hater. Besides the pictures of her wedding, there’s other photos, too. Like the one from New Year’s Eve 2002, featuring her and her bride arm in arm with Bill Gaither and Mark Lowry. Yep, Bill Gaither, the king of gospel music, and Mark Lowry (the queen?), his longtime sidekick.

Gaither is wildly popular with evangelical Christians, and brings in millions of dollars a year “ministering” to them in song. Mark Lowry has made millions from his “ministry", which consists of singing and comedy. I saw him live at Mount Vernon Nazarene College, in Mount Vernon, Ohio, about 10 years ago. My buddy Dilettante had been given some tickets, and I went with him and his family. If you’ve never seen and heard Lowry, just think of an even more effeminate Richard Simmons. He’s that bad. I’d never seen him before, nor had Dilettante, and if I recall correctly, after the concert, we were both pretty sure that Lowry had a little sugar in his gas tank. And this Marsha Stevens business only makes me more suspicious.

Because this isn’t one of those photos where the big shot had no idea who he was posing with, and it comes back to haunt him later, a la Rosalyn Carter and John Wayne Gacy. No, both Gaither and Lowry knew all about Stevens and her faggot “ministry", and not only did they pose with her, they also praised Stevens for her work, and condemned those haters who think Christians can’t be faggots:

The first person to come up to us was Mark Lowry. He sang with the Gaither Vocal Band for many years and retired recently after he wrote the song “Mary Did You Know", but he’d been singing with the group that night.

He said, “Hey, you’re Marsha Stevens!” I thought, okay, there’s only 6 of us here, they must have told them our names. But he went on to say that he loves the song “For Those Tears I Died” and that he’s proud of what I’m doing now. I said, “You know what I’m doing now?” He answer, “I sure do and I wish the fundamentalist would find Jesus. They’re going to have a lot to answer for, leaving out people that Jesus died for.”

While I stammered (I am SO dumb around famous people), Bill and Gloria Gaither came over and Bill said how much he loved my song, and appreciated my ministry today, too. Gloria thanked me for it. I was not sure Bill knew what he was saying, but we got pictures and it was time to go back out for the rest of the concert.

At about 10 till midnight we thought they would be starting their big finale. But Bill said that he had lost a couple of people very close to him in the past couple of years - his brother and his Mom - and one song had been sung at both funerals . . . a song that has gotten more people than we will ever know through a “dark night of the soul.” Then he handed the microphone to Kim Hopper and she sang the first verse of “For Those Tears.” It was incredibly beautiful. Then the whole group sang the chorus and he invited the crowd to join in. I was crying. Cindy was finding an old napkin in her pocket to wipe my nose with.

While the piano continued to play my song, Gloria read a tribute her daughter had written to them on the occasion of their 40th wedding anniversary, then the whole crowd sang the chorus again. By now it was just seconds to midnight, so I was CERTAIN they were done. But we suddenly realized that he was continuing to talk.

“You know, the young (sic) woman who wrote that song is here with us tonight, and maybe you’re like she was and you’ve heard about a god who would reject you for who you are or who might turn you away for something you’ve done or where you’ve come from. Well I want you to know that I don’t know that god. The only God I know is the one in this song that she wrote. The one that says, ‘I am right here for you.’ The one who sent His son. The one who says, “You are my child, I love you, come stand by my side.’ So sing with me again!”

The King Is Coming, alright, Bill. And he ain’t gonna be very happy with this racemixing, fag loving, Jew worshiping monstrosity that the Church has become. And when He comes, it won’t be “something beautiful, something good". I’m not looking forward to it, myself.

Happy Hacker

2004-10-25 17:59 | User Profile

Queers and Christianity mix like oil and water. And, there has been a number of "Christian" music groups go secular without surprizing anyone who knew they weren't Christian from the start.

Okiereddust

2004-10-25 18:35 | User Profile

As an admirer of Schaeffer, I was always perplexed intrigued but somewhat perplexed by his opinions of the Christian music scene. Schaeffer actually as a follower of Cornelius Van Til, who to be succinct always thought Christians should not only be more culturally aware but strive to more prominent culturally and influence culture towards Christianity, was a big initial supporter at least of the idea of Christian music, but always was aghast at its practical outcome.

I think practically there are only limited things a Christian can do in today's culture to be "culturally relevent", especially in such a culturally hostile environment as the pop music scene. Excesses as described above are to be noted, but I guess in some sense are rather inevitable.

Quantrill

2004-10-25 20:07 | User Profile

The problem with 'culturally relevant' Christianity is simply this -- despite the stated intention of changing the degraded culture to be more Christian, it always (and I do mean always) ends up being changing Christianity to be more like the degraded culture.

Okiereddust

2004-10-25 20:41 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]The problem with 'culturally relevant' Christianity is simply this -- despite the stated intention of changing the degraded culture to be more Christian, it always (and I do mean always) ends up being changing Christianity to be more like the degraded culture.[/QUOTE]Well Christianity certainly has cultural implications, of the most profound and deepest kind. Schaeffer discusses these. But the people using the buzzwords "culturally relevent" usually are educators indoctrinated with the latest educational progressive educational fads, and certainly have no interest in cultural revitalization along traditionalist Christian lines, let alone the kids they have taught, growing up with the walkman's who want nothing more than to put Christian words to the latest rap song on the radio.

Texas Dissident

2004-10-26 15:19 | User Profile

[QUOTE=weisbrot]Case in point-King’s X. I remember hearing about them years ago. They were THE band to like for hip, relevant Christians not that long ago. They had their Negro lead singer. They were openly Christian, but shunned the CCM label, and said they just wanted to make good music, period. And it wasn’t Amy Grant style music for wimps; these dudes rocked out. What wasn’t to like for relevant culture reclaimer types? King’s X was what it was all about, man. They got it. It wasn’t about sitting around reading your Bible all day, sheltering your kids, and running around in old fashioned clothes. It was about being out there; interacting with the world where they are, and speaking to them on their terms. They showed you could play at Cornerstone, and still be good enough to make the cover of Rolling Stone. And making the cover of Rolling Stone, for relevant culture reclaimer types, is about the same thing as having a dove rest on your shoulders after you’re baptized.

They lost favor with a few of their less relevant Christian fans back in 1998, when Doug Pinnick announced that he’s gay, but he thought God was cool with it. A few years later he clarified things- he’s been gay the whole time he was in the band, his bandmates always knew and accepted it, and he’s now an atheist.

So what’s a hip, relevant Christian to do when he hears a TV show playing music from a guy who boasts that he enjoys gay butt sex, blasphemes the name of Christ, and says there is no God? Do what these guys do, and rave about how awesome and cool it is.[/QUOTE]

It sounds corny I know, but back in the late 80s the music of King's X helped change my life. So admittedly I'm not an impartial critic of the band and what's come of Doug, Ty and Jerry. I haven't really listened to much of their latest material, but their first four albums or so (especially 'Faith, Hope, Love'), to my mind is the best, most moving rock and roll music ever played. I would definitely say it was inspired from the heavens. While all three members are extremely talented musically, I always felt that Ty was the heart and soul Christian as reflected by the songs he wrote. I knew Doug 'came out' a few years back, but whether or not Ty and Jerry knew from the get-go, I have no idea. I think the fact he is now proclaiming atheism shows his inability to square homosexuality with a Christian belief system. I pray God convicts him and brings him back into the truth.

Anyway, for what King's X recorded from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, as a Christian who likes rock and roll music, I'll always be grateful to that little band from Katy, Texas.

*Perfect peace Mountains robed in glory Coming into view Father speaks Son becomes the story Essence of all true I saw what cannot be seen She spoke to me Take what you've learned Set it free See what you'll see

Flowing power Waterfall of wisdom Flawless bold commands Masterpiece written over the vision By the perfect man

Living martyr Truer than the seasons No more place for lies Cast a seed Push aside the reason Reign of terror dies*

.......

*I only know what I believe The rest is so absurd to me I close my eyes so I cant see But the picture just gets clearer everyday I read somewhere to learn is to remember And I've learned we all forgot There was peace in her before But that was yesterday But I can see The beauty that is here for me A chance to live and walk free From a legal kill

I know your side so very well It makes no sense that I can tell The smell of hell is what I smell And you hand it out with handshakes every day I have trouble with the persons with the signs But I feel the need to make my own Yes there's two ways to be And truth does not depend on me But I can feel The fight for life is always real I can't believe it's no big deal It's a legal kill*

Exelsis_Deo

2004-10-27 03:21 | User Profile

refer to my post above on OD if you are interested in a real white band.. one that has been on the charts since 1968. Roots to Branches.. a very racist cd.

wild_bill

2004-10-27 16:45 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]The problem with 'culturally relevant' Christianity is simply this -- despite the stated intention of changing the degraded culture to be more Christian, it always (and I do mean always) ends up being changing Christianity to be more like the degraded culture.[/QUOTE]

I tend to agree with you, although there's a chicken-and-egg argument to be made also. Personally, I can't take the syrupy or preachy Christian music, but in some of the more obscure heavy metal genres there are some intelligent Christian bands and others who I might classify as Christian-friendly in the sense that they deal with spiritual struggles from the perspective of resisting evil. One such band is:

Place of Skulls [url]http://www.placeofskulls.com/[/url]

The Fall ~ There’s a Spirit calling out No mindless wonder in this world of doubt A Reality more real than this Deception will steal our minds of bliss. ~ No strength within myself It was all spent when mankind fell The sting of death entered in We started to die when we began. ~ The father of lies, the tempter’s crown Unrighteous souls will keep us bound But innocent blood shed from Thee The stripes You wore were for me. ~ I long to understand What the Creator has done for man Can our feeble minds comprehend? We started to die when we began. †

[url]http://www.placeofskulls.com/thefall.mp3[/url]

Here's a traditional metal band that's overtly Christian:

The Saint [url]http://saintsite.com/[/url]

[url]http://www.angelfire.com/indie/itb_saint/HERE_WE_ARE.mp3[/url] [url]http://www.angelfire.com/indie/itb_saint/IN_THE_BATTLE.mp3[/url]

Jack Cassidy

2004-10-27 23:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]As an admirer of Schaeffer, I was always perplexed intrigued but somewhat perplexed by his opinions of the Christian music scene. Schaeffer actually as a follower of Cornelius Van Til, who to be succinct always thought Christians should not only be more culturally aware but strive to more prominent culturally and influence culture towards Christianity, was a big initial supporter at least of the idea of Christian music, but always was aghast at its practical outcome.

I think practically there are only limited things a Christian can do in today's culture to be "culturally relevent", especially in such a culturally hostile environment as the pop music scene. Excesses as described above are to be noted, but I guess in some sense are rather inevitable.[/QUOTE]I've come to the position that given the depraved state of modernity there can be no product there from which is wholly holy. Only when Western Christian society was so imbued with the spirit of omnia pro gloria Dei was art and music great and/or worthy of the designation 'Christian'. You want Christian music? Listen to Bach, Mozart, Vivaldi, et al. Ironically the modern-day [Evangelical] Christian crowd indulges in psuedo-Christian, Zionist-centric music, while the Jews are the ones indulging in the true Christian music (Baroque-classical). I've actually heard Jews who've said that they thought about converting to Christianity because of Bach or Mozart.

Jack Cassidy

2004-10-27 23:34 | User Profile

[QUOTE=wild_bill]I tend to agree with you, although there's a chicken-and-egg argument to be made also. [/QUOTE] The solution to the chicken-and-egg problem is simple. Chickens aren't an egg's way of making more eggs.

Quantrill

2004-10-27 23:40 | User Profile

[QUOTE=wild_bill]I tend to agree with you, although there's a chicken-and-egg argument to be made also. Personally, I can't take the syrupy or preachy Christian music, but in some of the more obscure heavy metal genres there are some intelligent Christian bands and others who I might classify as Christian-friendly in the sense that they deal with spiritual struggles from the perspective of resisting evil.

I didn't mean to say that I don't think rock or popular music can address Christianity or spiritual issues -- it most certainly can. For it to work, however, it must be genuine. Johnny Cash and Gillian Welch both have many Christian songs, but some unexpected bands do, as well. One example is the rather quirky rock band Cake, who have at least two fairly explicity Christian songs -- 'Hem of His Garment' and 'Jesus Wrote a Blank Check'. What I am opposed to is this idea that we can be just as cool (or gay, or anti-white, or radically egalitarian, or whatever) as the secularists, as long as we talk about Jesus.

wild_bill

2004-10-28 00:15 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Jack Cassidy]The solution to the chicken-and-egg problem is simple. Chickens aren't an egg's way of making more eggs.[/QUOTE]

Depends on how one looks at it.

il ragno

2004-11-04 14:31 | User Profile

Here's a shocker. I actually like the Christian-leaning bands, far more than the Satanist bands out there. I connote music naturally to positive spirituality, although there's plenty of 'dark' music made that's perfectly valid.

However, as regards Kings X, they may have been a band [I]made up of [/I] believing Christians but I have never seen explicit Christian proselytizing in their lyrics, nor were they ever marketed that way. In other words, they might have been Christians, and the influence may have poermeated their music, but Kings X were not a "Christian band".

I'm a huge fan of the American progressive-rock band Spock's Beard, who were for years fronted by a believing Christian. Again, while there is strong spiritual content in their cds it is never made explicit - in fact, they have as many detractors as fans because many people found the positive, uplifting-type lyrics offensive (which says it all right there about the media-approved commodification of nihilism and negativity). Eventually, the bandleader, a fellow named Neal Morse, left the band to concentrate on explicitly Christian music (his first attempt, TESTIMONY, is very very good - much better than the 'Christian-rock' norm).

I personally feel for those musicians trying to wear both hats. They tend to end up pleasing neither constituency and get dumped on by rabidly intolerant secular-music diehards as well as rabidly-intolerant Professional Christians. Whatever happened to 'judge not, lest ye be judged?' Well, when has any holy roller ever adhered to [I]that [/I] one?

I also have never seen [I]any [/I] issue of Rolling Stone with Kings X on the cover. Granted, I can't abde the magazine and can hardly be said to keep up with it, so maybe there was one and I misssed it, but a big part of what's wrong with music nowadays is that bands like Kings X have [I]no shot [/I] at that kind of exposure.

Last note: it's true that Kings X have fallen on hard times, professionally speaking. But that likely has more to do with the shift from the major label they used to be on (Atlantic) to the niche-label they're on now (Metal Blade). They crested, they peaked, and now they're on the downhill side. Simply due to the fact that they play melodic hard rock that's [I]not [/I] paint-by-numbers, they were bound to end up behind that 8-ball anyway: nowadays, producing rock music worth listening to is like performing a kind of career hari-kari.