The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]From 1983 to 1984 the members of the Order conducted a two-year campaign of counterfeiting and robbery to finance a racial revolution in America. The objective for Mathews' organization was to trigger a rebellion of the white population against the forces of ZOG, the Zionist Occupation Government of the United States, which was believed to be engineering the destruction of the white race and its Aryan heritage.[size=-1]<3>[/size] For Mathews, this insurrectionary goal was driven by a divine imperative which ran far deeper than political concerns. Having become captivated with the spiritual aspects of racialism,[size=-1]<4>[/size] Mathews heard in Pierce's fantasy novel a call for a holy war and the promise of a new dawn for those committed to the Aryan ideal of life.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Although *Turner *has often been referred to as the 'white supremacist bible' by the media, more attention has been given to its tactical and strategic plans for domestic terrorism than to the book's unusual spiritual impulse.[size=-1]<5>[/size] What has been lacking thus far in the examination of the novel is a careful scrutiny of its millenarian overtones and an assessment of its implications for holy terrorism. I suggest that *Turner* should be viewed as a theological statement, marked by a vision of divine transformation and a sense of ultimacy derived from a fusion of racial and spiritual ideas. By examining the novel through this conceptual lens, our understanding of the strange appeal of *Turner*        to a potentially violent faction of the antigovernment subculture may be        substantially broadened.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]**PIERCE AND THE        COSMOTHEIST WORLDVIEW**[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]*The Turner Diaries* is the first and better known of two novels written by William Pierce, a figure generally viewed as an intellectual leader of the American far right. Having sold nearly 200,000 copies,[size=-1]<6>[/size][/size][/font] [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]*Turner* has been remarkably well-received for a book with an obvious fringe theme. The futuristic story unfolds in the 1990s and recounts the experiences of Earl Turner, a leader of an underground guerrilla force (the Organization) that engages in a campaign of terrorism against a Jewish-controlled American government. Turner's group of devoted revolutionaries succeeds in carrying out a series of sabotage operations, bombings, and assassinations which result in the occurrence of an all-out race war and the eventual violent dissolution of the central government.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The novel concludes with an apocalyptic vision of the future in which the Organization, having established a separate 'white territory' in California, initiates a global nuclear war. The nuclear strikes carry strange symbolic connotations, both for their timing and for their intended consequences. Undertaken in the late 1990s, the worldwide nuclear apocalypse occurs just prior to the arrival of the new millennium, the dawn of a pristine era promising glory and fulfillment for the Organization and its racial kinsmen. Equally chiliastic is the totality of destruction wrought by the weapons themselves and the metaphorical 'cleansing' effect they seem to possess. By unleashing the forces of mass destruction against its enemies, the terrorists erase from the face of the earth the impure 'alien hordes' who have long impeded the evolution of a new species'the rejuvenated white race.[size=-1]<7>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The millennial subcurrents        of *Turner* convey a deeper message than that which is often associated with the book. While Pierce intended for this fictional work to promote the ideas of his racialist organization (the National Alliance) to a wider readership, *Turner* also reflects the author's observance of        a belief system steeped in conceptions of ultimate things.[size=-1]<8>[/size] Strangely, this central feature of Pierce's worldview has gone essentially unnoticed despite his occasional statements and writings suggesting his adherence to a divine cosmology.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Pierce's gravitation toward extremism appears to have begun during his days at Oregon State University in the early 1960s. While employed there as an assistant professor of physics (1962-65), Pierce became increasingly preoccupied with what he saw as the 'racial erosion' of American society.[size=-1]<9>[/size] Convinced that the university environment fostered a 'politically correct atmosphere' which prevented an honest dialogue on race from taking place, Pierce gave up on an academic career and shortly thereafter immersed himself completely in a quest for radical solutions to America's 'race problem.'[size=-1]<10>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Following a short association with George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party (ANP) in Arlington, Virginia, Pierce continued his work as a racial activist with a number of ANP successor organizations. By 1974, after having worked in high-ranking positions for a number of groups in the neo-Nazi orbit, he founded the National Alliance, an Arlington-based group devoted to promoting the progress of the white race.[size=-1]<11>[/size] In 1985, Pierce relocated his organizational headquarters to a 300-acre property in a remote portion of southeastern West Virginia. At this site, Pierce and a few members of his group run the organization's day-to-day operations, which involve the printing and distribution of racial separatist propaganda through the National Alliance's literature-selling arm, National Vanguard Books.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]From the time of its inception, the National Alliance has separated itself from other neo-Nazi groups by its adoption of a distinctive and highly literate organizational rhetoric and a guiding philosophy that invokes sacred themes. Although the disparate ranks of the American neo-Nazi circle have commonly shared ideals loosely based on 'Blood and Soil' mythology and Nordic lore, this general movement has tended to be more ideological than spiritual. In marked contrast to these 'Hitler cults' which emerged in the wake of the post-Rockwell Nazi movement, Pierce's National Alliance sought to establish itself as a community of the Elect galvanized by a common belief in racial destiny and the Aryan path to godhood.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]In order to understand Pierce's millenarian worldview, it is necessary briefly to explore the racially rooted theology upon which his organization is based. This philosophy, which Pierce calls 'Cosmotheism,' resonates in his literary work, particularly in *Turner*, and provides adherents with a        totalistic logic explaining the order of the universe.[size=-1]<12>[/size] Blending Darwinian evolutionary theory with ideas from ancient Teutonic legend, Cosmotheism synthesizes the scientific with the mystical in its construction of reality. While the empirical and otherworldly components of this belief system might initially appear incompatible, in a strange sense each reinforces the other in an all-encompassing concept for human evolutionary development.[size=-1]<13>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Pierce perceives the world in terms of separate, biologically differentiated evolutions of racial groups. Reflecting strong traces of the theories of scientific racism he read while at Oregon State University,[size=-1]<14>[/size] Pierce's conception of racial progress would seem, at first glance, to be merely an extension of the early twentieth century's 'racial anthropology' literature. Here it is important to see that Pierce's system of thought diverges significantly from the purely scientific structure adopted by early racial theorists. In the Cosmotheist thoughtworld, evolution takes on a spiritual meaning as mankind follows predetermined courses of racial destiny. Pierce has described this process as an 'upward path' with its end point leading to the goal of 'oneness with the Creator.'[size=-1]<15>[/size] This ultimate Cosmotheist objective, the white race's realization of godhood, is viewed as a genetically wired certainty. According to Pierce, who has lectured on the subject to small gatherings of National Alliance members, the race's 'divine spark' has propelled it to greatness throughout history and separates it from all other forms of life.[size=-1]<16>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The concept of a unique Aryan path to godhood has parallels with the 'secret wisdom' beliefs found in ancient Gnosticism. Although lacking the racial mystique that would come to preoccupy some of its distant offshoots, Gnosticism established an early foundation for alternative expressions of salvationism. Embracing a mysterious and syncretic belief system borrowed from Platonism, oriental religions, Judaism, and Christianity, Gnosticism flourished in the first few centuries c.e. in the Mediterranean Basin as a counter religious movement to orthodox Christianity.[size=-1]<17>[/size] The importance of Gnosticism as a forebearer of other elite, alternative theological systems is found in its dualistic interpretation of reality. Perceiving in themselves a divine spark that differentiated those within the sect from outsiders, the early Gnostics held that the realization of spiritual unity with God could be achieved through secret revelation and initiation into the group's esoteric tradition.[size=-1]<18>[/size] This knowledge, which was deemed unavailable to group outsiders, permitted the 'release' of one's godly potential, and thus facilitated the 'insider's' personal path to divinity.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The Gnostic gravitation toward dualism and group secrecy was continued by a host of esoteric orders in the Western world. In particular, notions of occult revelations resonated with many of the secret societies which drew their inspiration from the Gnostic worldview. It is interesting to note that the uniquely German permutations of Gnostic belief, which in the nineteenth century combined Volkish nationalism with the mysticism of legendary secret societies, became the prime expositors of a 'revolutionary gnosis' that possessed both a racial basis and a political agenda.[size=-1]<19>[/size] The best-known of these relatively obscure ideas was Ariosophy, an Aryan variant of the era's widely popular Theosophy. Blending German nationalistic sentiments, occultism, and Teutonic belief, Ariosophy emerged as a 'crisis cult' in response to its adherents' sense of dislocation within late nineteenth-century German society and the disunified nature of the German state.[size=-1]<20>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Pierce has consistently displayed a fascination with various figures who are commonly associated with the Western esoteric tradition. Throughout his writing career, Pierce has admired the metaphysical ideas of mystical philosophers such as Meister Eckhart (1260-1327 c.e.) and Giordano Bruno (1548-1600 c.e.).[size=-1]<21>[/size] Scholars have generally located Eckhart and Bruno in the lineage of esotericists whose brand of mysticism incorporated Gnostic and Neoplationist themes.[size=-1]<22>[/size] For Pierce, these theological scholars provided their race with a glimpse of the Divine in man's soul. Inspired by similar views about the innate urge to achieve union with a higher nature, Eckhart and Bruno observed cosmologies which, while subtly differentiated, stressed the possibility of the soul's perfectibility.[size=-1]<23>[/size] It was, in fact, the mystical reference to this divine spark, a point of central important in Eckhart's philosophy,[size=-1]<24>[/size] which Pierce integrated into his own racially based cosmology. In a 1978 essay entitled 'The Faustian Spirit,' Pierce employs the Gnostic understanding of the soul's upward path in his racially deterministic framework of thought:[/size][/font][indent]         [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The race which is the bearer of this spirit must, therefore, be doubly careful that its genetic basis is preserved'that it does not become a race solely of lawyers, clerks, laborers, and merchants but remains a race also of philosophers, explorers, poets, and inventors: of seekers of ultimate knowledge, of strivers toward the perfection which is Godhood.[size=-1]<25>[/size][/size][/font]

[/indent][font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Cosmotheism appears to be philosophically related to this ancient esoteric tradition in some important ways. First, Cosmotheism can be viewed as an extension of the same type of protest subculture which organized around groups in the Gnostic constellation. Galvanized by the feeling that society was flawed and on the wrong course of development, these groups turned inward, away from the surrounding social system, and sought security in a group-specific, utopian image of the world. Second, despite the chronological gap between the emergence of the Gnostic outlook and that of Cosmotheism, there are similarities in their respective uses of dualism. Employed by each as a means to divide society into camps comprised of the 'enlightened' and the 'unknowing,' these philosophies provide believers with a neat, systematized way of differentiating between insider and outsider. Such an outlook provides the group with a sense of unity and a means to coalesce around shared ideals which are held to be superior to those of the outside culture.[size=-1]<26>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]**DESTRUCTION AND        REBIRTH**[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Cosmotheism is partly differentiated from what some scholars of radical mass movements have termed the 'reconstructed tradition,' which defines the outlook of groups seeking to return society to a past golden age.[size=-1]<27>[/size] Finding the dominant culture unsatisfying and threatening, separatist movements of this type are mobilized around inspirational themes taken from a putatively untarnished past. Despite sharing this tendency to look backward through history'particularly to Viking lore and classical antiquity'for models of an earlier, glorified existence, Cosmotheism possesses an inherently forward-looking character which extends from its emphasis on evolutionary development. In this respect, the Cosmotheist vision for the future is presented as a linear path of racial progress, with each forward step taking the race closer to the threshold of divinity. Whereas other factions in the radical right constellation (such as the Christian Identity fold and the various Klan organizations) perceive in bygone eras a purity of life to which they long to return,[size=-1]<28>[/size] the National Alliance uses utopian imagery drawn from both the past and the future. It is the more forward-looking component of Pierce's philosophy which carries revolutionary implications.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Like all millennial beliefs, Cosmotheism is a salvific philosophy that anticipates the dissolution of an existing world order and the eventual realization of a new and perfect society. Its bio-racial underpinnings reflect a deterministic view of history in which the anticipated age of ultimate renewal is arrived at through evolutionary means. This process of 'racial advancement,' as Pierce sees it, is preordained, and thus part of a cosmic plan for universal order.[size=-1]<29>[/size] The connotations of logical progress in Cosmotheism, albeit disturbing, convey optimism about the future, an attitude which is linked to an underlying faith in racial destiny. But unlike those 'progressive' millenarians whose beliefs are anchored in a view of history defined by constant improvement,[size=-1]<30>[/size] Pierce and his adherents envision the secular        world in an eroded and decaying condition.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The conviction that the entire social system is headed for destruction is actually a key source of faith for millenarians whose dreams of renewal are contingent upon the realization of a sweeping disaster period. This system of thought, which religion scholar Catherine Wessinger has termed 'catastrophic millennialism,' is predicated upon a group's belief that the imminent destruction of the existing order must first take place before the perfect age, the new millennium, is brought about.[size=-1]<31>[/size] From the perspective of the believer, the catastrophe initiates the process whereby the forces of total worldly transformation are set in motion. In this vision, hope for the future is inextricably tied to the catastrophic event which alone has the power to recast an impure environment in a more hallowed form.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The redemptive quality of the apocalyptic vision for world transformation is understood in two ways by catastrophic millenarians. At one level, the disaster completely eradicates the past, giving birth to the new order in which life starts in a pristine form. The second level at which redemption occurs takes place within the community, which sees itself as benefiting from the destruction of the old way of life. As Norman Cohn observed, for revolutionary chiliasts the meaning of the Heavenly City on earth is inherently exclusive. Salvation is reserved for the 'chosen people' who will reap the reward for their faith when history is brought to its consummation.[size=-1]<32>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Catastrophic millennial theory provides us with a starting point from which to gauge the connection between disaster and salvation, but it fails to elaborate on an important aspect of this nexus. What is left undeveloped is the notion that disaster assumes a role in the renewal process that carries with it a faith-sustaining power. When considered from this vantage point, catastrophic events designed to bring down the decayed order of things perform a critical function in the totalistic mindset of those engaged in 'the final struggle.' This function, as Michael Barkun notes, is illusory and gives catastrophically inclined millenarians the appearance that the ultimate dream for change is unfolding.[size=-1]<33>[/size] Thus, for the believer, the disaster may be seen to be as much an act of self-confirmation, or reassurance, as it is part of the transformative cycle. At this point we begin to encounter the strong possibility that disaster is itself part of the millennial dream and not merely a precursor to it or a separate time on the millennial clock. The result is that whereas disaster and the era of perfection might, in other situations, be viewed as distinct epochs of history, here they are joined together in a synthesis of revolutionary change.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Pierce's conception of total change from the degraded state of present affairs to a sublime future has as its major obstacle the societal institutions which are believed to be responsible for the decline of white America. Presented in National Alliance literature in pathological terms, the government, courts, media, universities, and all other vestiges of the modern democratic social system are considered sick and inherently corrupted.[size=-1]<34>[/size] Comprising the core of this        societal power structure are the same groups Pierce portrayed in        *Turner* as 'unassimiliable,' especially Jews and non-whites.[size=-1]<35>[/size] These groups, along with the government and its supporters, are seen as the promoters of a subversive 'diversity' agenda which has as its goal the disintegration of white culture. There is, however, a strong hint of hopefulness to be found in the National Alliance's appraisal of America's diseased condition. As Pierce points out in a recent article he wrote outlining the future strategy of his organization, the nation's advanced state of social decay represents the beginning of the end for the old Order:[/size][/font][indent]         [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The situation in America is no longer quasi-static, as it was during most of the 1970s and 1980s. During that earlier period the Jewish media were able to keep nearly all of the public hypnotized, to provide a false reality for them in the place of the real world around them. . . . Now the process of decay and disintegration has accelerated; now the hypnosis is beginning to wear off as reality becomes too harsh to ignore. This process will continue to accelerate in the future.[size=-1]<36>[/size][/size][/font]

[/indent][font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]TAPPING INTO THE MILLENNIAL OUTLOOK[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]The theme of 'rebirth' undergrids all expressions of millennialism; but when catastrophe is eagerly anticipated as a precondition for earthly bliss, critical questions should be asked about the implications of the group's beliefs. Above all, it is necessary to consider whether the group's vision of disaster promotes action on the part of adherents to 'trigger' the events leading to the perfect age. It is this specific behavior, the act of forcing the millennium through human effort, which may place the group on a collision course with society. The distinction between the passive expectation and active promotion of catastrophe is important because it effectively separates disaster-prone millennialism into either nonviolent or potentially violent types. When we turn our attention to the Cosmotheist impulse which informs Pierce's literary work, it becomes clear that the doctrine legitimizes violence as a tool for implementing its program for change.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]*The Turner Diaries'* fictionalized route to racial Armageddon provides us with a glimpse of Cosmotheism's track of logic. Presented in the novel in its most highly distilled form, the philosophy mandates the complete eradication of enemies who are portrayed as subhuman. Only by purging the world of their degenerate and impure society can a new system'an Aryan order of life'be created. The pure vs. impure dynamic in *Turner* does not lend itself to strategies of change which are less than total. This interpretive framework is ultimately reductionistic. Absolute distinctions drawn between 'the righteous' and 'the alien' take the form of a timeless truth and propel the believer on a course running counter to the interests and values of the larger society.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]With these insights in mind, we can begin to see how Pierce's Cosmotheist beliefs, if followed to their logical ends, may activate the revolutionary forces needed to overthrow the opposing power structure. As the designs for an Aryan society are increasingly thwarted by the despised regime, some members of the faith may take it upon themselves to 'make history.' Although Pierce has been quick to dismiss as 'impulsive and overzealous' the perpetrators of the Oklahoma City bombing,[size=-1]<37>[/size] his early writings reveal an entirely different perspective on the use of terrorism to further organizational goals. In a 1971 essay, Pierce minces no words about the resolve necessary to do battle with the 'system':[/size][/font][indent]         [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]We do not need to reason with the monster; we need to put a bullet into its brain and hammer a stake through its heart. If that means blood and chaos and battling the alien enemy from house to house in burning cities throughout our land'then, by God, it is better that we get on with it now than later.[size=-1]<38>[/size][/size][/font]

[/indent][font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]While Turner's call for anti-government mobilization appears in the shape of a religious imperative, the novel's millennial hopes depend on the psychology of its readers. Touching upon the same general themes normally found in the discourse of the far right, particularly alienation and nativism, Turner's threatening motif is peculiarly well-suited to appeal to a Manichaean mindset. In this sense, Pierce's work does not so much reorient the beliefs of readers, but rather taps into the psychological outlook of those already inclined to see the world in apocalyptic and conspiratorial terms.[size=-1]<39>[/size] Here, Turner's versatility as an instigator for anti-system activism merits special attention. Depending upon the convictions of the reader, the 'enemy' may assume a number of forms, all of which become psychologically reconstituted as part of the larger New World Order. This does not suggest, however, that all those finding confirmation of their beliefs in Turner are blind to its sanction for religious warfare. One case, of course, stands out. Robert Mathews' close association with William Pierce, described by some as a student-mentor relationship,[size=-1]<40>[/size] points to the probability that he was a Cosmotheist believer.41[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]It is likely that the evolutionary basis of Pierce's syncretic Aryan theology lacks the explosive dynamism required to mobilize legions of religiously inspired terrorists. But, when dealing with issues of faith, the numerical size of an extremist millenarian movement may have little bearing on its ability to conduct sacred warfare. Visualizing themselves as participants in a cosmic-level battle with the forces of evil, religious terrorists are moved by a desire to reshape the existing order in accordance with the divine will. This source of inspiration is fueled by the group's profound sense of alienation and a certainty that its way of life is imperiled.[size=-1]<42>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Pierce's 1989 novel,        *Hunter*, may provide us with some perspective on the author's maturation as a revolutionary prophet. Eschewing the fanciful strategic guerrilla war theme laid out in *Turner* for a more realistic        plot,[size=-1]<43>[/size] Pierce focuses on the activities of a lone terrorist (the fictional Oscar Yeager) in his second novel. Yeager, a self-employed engineer and contractor in the Washington, D.C. area, comes to the realization that his one-man attempts at striking out against the government by random assassinations will not bring about its demise. However, the central character comes to see that by creating an environment in which such acts trigger exponentially greater effects, the isolated terrorist incident can be useful as a revolutionary tactic. Joining forces with the National League, a small band of like-minded revolutionaries, Yeager and the group undertake a calculated campaign aimed at inciting a nationwide backlash against Jews. Using a media propaganda strategy to win the allegiance of disaffected whites opposing the Jewish domination of America, the National League succeeds in fomenting a state of racial discord across the country. As tensions rise, American cities are reduced to combat zones where armed conflicts take place between minorities and whites. Like *Turner*, the novel ends on an apocalyptic note as America dissolves along racial lines and an all-out race war seems an inevitability.[size=-1]<44>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Pierce's apparent advocacy of a new strategy for insurrection, that of the small propaganda-utilizing cadre, would seem tailor-made for contemporary times when the far right's activities are being increasingly scrutinized by law enforcement organizations. Prefiguring the general strategy of 'leaderless resistance' outlined in 1992 by Christian Identity figure Louis Beam,[size=-1]<45>[/size] the protagonists of *Hunter* make use of the media to mobilize individuals or small groups in support of a racial cause. Such a plan improved upon the dated tactics of *Turner* for two reasons: leaderless terrorists are difficult for the state to monitor and control, and, lacking central direction, the 'cells' or individuals engaging in illegal activity provide the inciting policy with a high degree of plausible deniability from the actor's endeavors.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]**CONCLUSION**[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Although Pierce's perception of the best-suited strategy for revolutionary violence may have changed from the time he wrote *Turner*, the same Cosmotheist ideals        still influence his work. While the golden age vision in *Hunter* is        presented in a less obvious manner than in the clearly millennial context        of *Turner*, a Cosmotheist impulse also provides *Hunter'*s        protagonists with their sense of racial duty. At a primordial level of        understanding, the 'heroes' in *Hunter* know that an integrated, multi-racial world is unnatural. By instigating racial unrest, the major characters in the novel set the stage for the unfolding forces of racial evolution to purge the country of its alien presence.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Pierce is not alone in his role as the far right's expositor of millennial violence. In recent days, other writers on America's rightward fringe have succeeded in attracting a limited following of sympathizers and in captivating the attention of media, law enforcement, and various interest groups. Of these, two stand out. The first is Richard Kelly Hoskins, whose 1990 book, *Vigilantes of        Christendom*, tells the story of the Phineas Priesthood. Although Hoskins has been writing in the racialist genre since the late 1950s, his *Vigilantes of Christendom* appears to have gained the reclusive author a significant measure of recent notoriety. Tracing the existence of a divinely ordained group of zealots from the biblical stories of Phineas, Hoskins maintains that individuals from this special priesthood have appeared throughout history whenever God's Law was broken.[size=-1]<46>[/size] According to Hoskins, the Phineans act as agents of God's wrath and, in accordance with their holy duty, 'execute judgment' against those held responsible for the corruption of Christian society.[size=-1]<47>[/size] Hoskins, whose theological justifications for violence seem based in a Christian Identity worldview, has either intentionally or unintentionally had his beliefs operationalized. Not unlike *Turner*, which has at least once incited        a receptive mind to violence, *Vigilantes of Christendom* has already motivated a handful of sympathizers to place themselves in the self-perceived role of the Phineas Priest.[size=-1]<48>[/size][/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Less well-known than        Hoskins' *Vigilantes of Christendom* is another violent work of growing fringe popularity with roots in the Odinist tradition. Written under the pen name O.T. Gunnarsson, the anonymous 1993 novel *Hear the        Cradle Song* mimics *Turner*'s race war theme, but sets the futuristic action in a localized area (southern California) and substitutes an Odinist cosmology for the implicit Cosmotheism in Pierce's first book, after which Gunnarsson's saga is clearly modeled. The novel's protagonists, a contingent of Odinists who heroically defend a white community in coastal southern California against invasion by Hispanic and Chinese armies, rely on their bravery and cunning to defeat the numerically superior racial outsiders in an America torn apart by economic turmoil and social chaos. The millennial subcurrents of *Hear the Cradle        Song* surface conspicuously at the novel's conclusion when, following the final victory over the invaders, the white community purges itself of troublesome Jews and homosexuals and begins a new future as a racially pure, orderly utopia.[size=-1]<49>[/size] Gunnarsson's novel is a modern-day extension of the Golden Age ideology embraced by the youthful Odinist subculture of Weimar-era Germany. Turning to the legendary Teutonic gods for inspiration during the darkest days of the interwar period, disillusioned German youth revived pagan deities as a means of reconstructing a time of imagined greatness.[size=-1]<50>[/size][/size][/font]

              [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Both *Vigilantes of        Christendom* and *Hear the Cradle Song* cater to an audience attracted to a reconstructed vision of a fanciful past and in search of a decisive plan for instituting order in a world perceived as having gone awry. However, despite their innate differences with the predominantly forward-looking nature of Cosmotheism, all share a common trait: each emphasize the use of 'purifying' violence enmeshed within a philosophy of the divine. That such works are gaining increasing attention in the far right subculture at this moment in time may not be surprising. Countercultural ideas of an intellectual and quasi-religious character have flourished during previous fin de si'cle periods, and the arrival of the new millennium conveys images of a historical slate wiped clean of the past.[size=-1]<51>[/size] At a sociopsychological level, this turn of the cosmic clock has contributed to a pervasive mood of anticipation. For millennialists within this protest movement, however, the hopes associated with the new dawn of time involve the utter destruction of the old order of things before utopia can be achieved. It is this concept'the notion of eradicating a corrupted and decayed realm of life'which carries serious implications for public order. The potential consequences of such outbreaks of catastrophic millennial activism oblige scholars and police agencies to expand their efforts at understanding the beliefs of those willing to use violence to usher in the perfect age.[/size][/font]

[font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-1]ENDNOTES[/size][/font] [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<1> Mark Hamm, Apocalypse in Oklahoma: Waco and Ruby Ridge Revisited (Boston: Northeastern University Press, 1997), 144-45.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<2> Kevin Flynn and        Gary Gerhardt, *The Silent Brotherhood: Inside America's Racist        Underground* (New York: Free Press, 1989), 140.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<3> Michael Barkun,        *Religion and the Racist Right: The Origins of the Christian Identity        Movement*, rev. ed. (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press,        1997), 11.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<4> Flynn and        Gerhardt, 121-22.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<5> 'Links of        Anti-Semitic Bank Provokes 6-State Parley,' *New York Times*, 27        December 1984, B7.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<6> This figure is        cited on the inside cover of *The Turner Diaries* (Hillsboro, West Virginia: National Vanguard Books, 1978). Scholars have generally accepted this sales figure as accurate. See, for example, Robert S. Robins and Jerrold M. Post, *Political Paranoia: The Psychopolitics of Hatred*        (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1997), 206.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<7> Ibid.,        210.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<8> I base this impression upon my personal interview with William Pierce conducted at his West Virginia Cosmotheist Community on 5 January 1993. This interview lasted approximately 90 minutes. Pierce proved willing to answer all of my questions concerning Cosmotheism, his writing career, and his views on the current social and political condition of America. However, he refused to divulge any information regarding the numerical size of the National Alliance.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<9> Ibid.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<10> Ibid.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<11> William Pierce,        *Human Dignity: A Racial Ethic* (Hillsboro, West Virginia: National Vanguard Books, 1978). This is a recorded speech given by Pierce at Arlington, Virginia before a small audience of National Alliance members.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<12> While Cosmotheist beliefs are most clearly evident in Pierce's first novel, the same conception of ultimate truth also informs his second novel, *Hunter* (Hillsboro, West Virginia: National Vanguard Books, 1989). Pierce has been a relatively prolific writer. In addition to his novels, he has written many editorials and essays for the publications with which he has been associated over the years. For a good understanding of the Cosmotheistic impulses which move Pierce, see his 'The Radicalizing of an American,' in *The Best of Attack! and National Vanguard Tabloid* (Hillsboro, WV: National Vanguard Books, 1989), 124-26. The article is one of many written by Pierce found in this compendium of essays marketed by National Vanguard Books.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<13> See Brad        Whitsel, 'Aryan Visions for the Future in the West Virginia Mountains,'        *Terrorism and Political Violence* 7, no. 4 (1995): 129.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<14> Pierce,        interview with author.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<15> Ibid.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<16> Ibid.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<17> John Saliba,        *Understanding New Religious Movements* (Grand Rapids, MI: William        Eerdman Publishing Co., 1985), 39.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<18> Ibid.,        39.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<19> Nicholas        Goodrick-Clarke, *The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults and        Their Influence on Nazi Ideology* (New York: New York University Press,        1992), 31.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<20> Ibid.,        29.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<21> William Pierce,        *Cosmotheism: Wave of the Future*, audiotape of lecture by William Pierce at Arlington, Virginia (Hillsboro, WV: National Vanguard Books, 1977). In this address, Pierce pays tribute to Meister Eckhart for his visionary ideas about human perfectibility. Also see William Pierce, 'Giordano Bruno: Visionary and Martyr,' in *The Best of Attack! and        National Vanguard Tabloid*, 165.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<22> Emily Sellon and        Ren'e Weber, 'Theosophy and the Theosophical Society,' *Modern Esoteric        Spirituality: An Encyclopedic History of the Religious Quest*, eds.        Antoine Faivre and Jacob Needleman(New York, NY: Crossroad, 1992),        311.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<23> Antoine Faivre,        'Ancient and Medieval Sources of Modern Esoteric Movements,' in *Modern        Esoteric Spirituality*, eds. Faivre and Needleman, 7.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<24> Oliver Davies,        ed., *The Rhineland Mystics: Writings of Meister Eckhart, Johannes Tauler, and Jan van Ruusbroec and Selections from the 'Theologica Germanica' and the 'Book of Spiritual Poverty' *(New York: Crossroad,        1980), 30-34.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<25> William Pierce,        'The Faustian Spirit,' in *The Best of Attack! and National Vanguard        Tabloid*, 145.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<26> Philip J. Lee,        *Against the Protestant Gnostics* (London: Oxford University Press,        1987), 33.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<27> Jeffrey Kaplan,        'Right Wing Violence in North America,' *Terrorism and Political        Violence* 7, no. 1 (1995): 57-58.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<28> Michael Barkun, 'Religion and Violence in the Christian Identity Movement' (paper presented at the Annual Meeting of the American Political Science Association, Washington, D.C., 3 September 1993).[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<29> Pierce,        *Cosmotheism.*[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<30> For an understanding of the distinctions between catastrophic and progressive millennial thought, see Catherine Wessinger, 'Millennialism With and Without the Mayhem,' in *Millennium, Messiahs, and Mayhem: Contemporary        Apocalyptic Movements*, eds. Thomas Robbins and Susan J. Palmer (New        York: Routledge, 1997), 49-51.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<31> Ibid.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<32> Norman Cohn,        *The Pursuit of the Millennium *(New York: Harper and Row, 1961),        308.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<33> Michael Barkun,        *Disaster and the Millennium* (New Haven: Yale University Press,        1974), 210.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<34> *What is the        National Alliance?: Ideology and Program of the National Alliance        *(Hillsboro, WV: National Vanguard Books, 1993). This pamphlet        describes the beliefs of National Alliance members.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<35> It should be        noted that in *The Turner Diaries* other groups, including feminists, liberal Christians, and conservatives, are also viewed as 'obstacles' to the goals of the Organization.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<36> *What is the        National Alliance?*, 6.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<37> William Pierce,        'OKC Bombing and America's Future' (address given 29 April 1995 on the        radio program *American Dissident Voices*). This is a weekly,        short-wave program broadcasted from WRNO Radio, New Orleans.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<38> William Pierce,        'Why Revolution?,' in *The Best of Attack! and National Vanguard        Tabloid*, 9.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<39> Michael Barkun,        'Religion, Militias, and Oklahoma City: The Mind of Conspiratorialists,'        *Terrorism and Political Violence *8, no. 1 (1996): 59.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<40> Flynn and        Gerhardt, 271.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<41> Ibid., 96. It is also known that Mathews studied Odinism. In some respects, Odinism and Cosmotheism are quite similar. However, as a reconstructed belief, Odinism lacks the forward-looking, evolutionary character of Cosmotheism.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<42> Bruce Hoffman,        'Holy Terror: The Implications of Terrorism Motivated by a Religious        Imperative,' *Studies in Conflict and Terrorism* 18 (1996):        273.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<43> Pierce,        interview with author.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<44> William Pierce        [Andrew MacDonald, pseud.], *Hunter* (Hillsboro, WV: National        Vanguard Books, 1989), 259.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<45> Barkun,        *Religion and The Racist Right*, 280. It bears attention that        Pierce's new strategy for civil insurrection, as laid out in        *Hunter*, preceded Beam's 1992 essay 'Leaderless Resistance,' which was included in the program of Rev. Pete Peters' Estes Park Conference of the same year.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<46> Richard Kelly        Hoskins, *Vigilantes of Christendom* (Lynchburg, VA: The Virginia Publishing Company, 1990), 23. The tale of Phineas is taken from Psalms 106: 'Then stood up Phineas, and executed judgment, and so the plague was stayed.'[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<47> Ibid.,        26.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<48> 'Possible Lead        in Bomb Blast at Olympics,'* New York Times*, 27 January 1997, A-3. Federal law enforcement officials reported that three men with ties to the Phineas Priesthood were considered suspects in the Olympic Park Bombing.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<49> O.T. Gunnarsson,        *Hear the Cradle Song* (self-published, 1993). Marketed by the        Institute for Historical Review, Newport Beach, CA.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<50> Jeffrey Kaplan,        *Radical Religion in America: Millennarian Movements from the Far Right        to the* *Children of Noah* (Syracuse: Syracuse University Press,        1997), 15.[/size][/font]

       [font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial][size=-2]<51> Walter Laqueur,        'Once More with Feeling,' *Society* 33, no. 1 (Nov./Dec. 1995):        16.

[url]http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/usanazis/cosmotheism.html[/url] [/size][/font]

Quantrill

2004-09-01 16:21 | User Profile

I think you are going off on the wrong track here. The vast majority of the members here are neither cosmotheists, nor Nazis, but rather Christian Traditionalists. Indeed, some of them, particularly Walter and Okie, have had some rather heated exchanges with former members who had national socialist tendencies. The Nazis are not the only group to ever criticize Jews.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 16:25 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]I think you are going off on the wrong track here. I thought the article was interesting. There were several mentions of Cosmotheism in another thread, so I thought this article might be of interest to others here. If not, then the moderators are welcome to delete it.

Quantrill

2004-09-01 16:33 | User Profile

Hadassah, Allow me to apologize if I misunderstood the intent of the post. I thought you were insinuating that there was a lot of cosmotheism/Nazism on this board because many of the posters here are critical of Jews. It is certainly a valid post, and I feel quite certain that no one will delete it.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 20:44 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]Hadassah, Allow me to apologize if I misunderstood the intent of the post. I thought you were insinuating that there was a lot of cosmotheism/Nazism on this board because many of the posters here are critical of Jews. It is certainly a valid post, and I feel quite certain that no one will delete it.[/QUOTE] No problem, and gratefully accepted.

Walter Yannis

2004-09-02 07:52 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]I think you are going off on the wrong track here. The vast majority of the members here are neither cosmotheists, nor Nazis, but rather Christian Traditionalists. Indeed, some of them, particularly Walter and Okie, have had some rather heated exchanges with former members who had national socialist tendencies. The Nazis are not the only group to ever criticize Jews.[/QUOTE]

Q: Well put.

H-sah: OD is a Christian Nationalist forum that is the property of our dear friend and gracious host Texas Dissident. So long as Tex's simple posting guidelines are followed, all are welcome to contribute, including especially you. I'm sure that you will be a very valued contributor to our holy deliberations.

By the way, we have among us the highly esteemed Kminta, who is a proud black man of senior OD standing. His presence here has always been greatly valued by all of us mean white racists, just as your respectful contributions will be much appreciated by all the seething anti-Semites here.

I for one am very pleased you're here.

Welcome!

Walter

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-02 22:35 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]I think you are going off on the wrong track here. The vast majority of the members here are neither cosmotheists, nor Nazis, but rather Christian Traditionalists. Indeed, some of them, particularly Walter and Okie, have had some rather heated exchanges with former members who had national socialist tendencies. The Nazis are not the only group to ever criticize Jews.[/QUOTE] That's for dang sure, as far as the lyin', cheatin', stealin' jews go...[img]images/smilies/wallbash.gif[/img]

I wish someone had warned me about the jews when I was a young man---it would have saved me a lot of money and **misery!

**

Faust

2004-09-03 03:51 | User Profile

It is a shame the man had a great mind. He wrote some good articles about the problems of our degenerate society. I found it odd how silly some of his ideas were at times. The Turner Diaries had a few good points, but over seems crude and silly. Sadly many of the "White" radicals make him look good.

Walter Yannis

2004-09-03 09:48 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]It is a shame the man had a great mind. He wrote some good articles about the problems of our degenerate society. I found it odd how silly some of his ideas were at times. The Turner Diaries had a few good points, but over seems crude and silly. Sadly many of the "White" radicals make him look good.[/QUOTE]

He was a Nazi and a Pagan.

He worshipped Evolution. Maybe he didn't admit it directly, but some of the broadcasts I listened to certainly gave me the impression that his religion was all about the glorious future of the white race majestically rising beyond itself and dominanting the Galaxy.

His site also hawked the anti-Christian writings of some Englishwoman convert to Hinduism, I forgot her name. He was no friend of Christ and His Church, to say the least.

That said, he had some good things to say. I'm in basic agreement with his analysis of Jewish influence on gentile society, and I'm grateful to Dr. Pierce for carrying the torch on that issue for the long, lonely time he did.

I also thought that his novel Turner Diaries wasn't bad literature. Some of his ideas were warped, but he was in my opinion a gifted fiction writer.

Walter

Mentzer

2004-09-05 02:10 | User Profile

Walter Yannis

Would you consider your contributions worthwhile or informative?

Or is your purpose simply to antagonize those that return here and endure another of your sourly dupilicitous postings?

You state: 'I am in basic agreement with...' and 'I am grateful to...'

Who are you trying to fool? And just who are you attempting to patronize?

You also state you are: 'Fat, stupid and happy' - I have no disagreement with that description.

-

Bardamu

2004-09-05 02:22 | User Profile

How long will it take before Raina's cover is blown? LOL!

Petr

2004-09-05 09:30 | User Profile

[COLOR=Navy] - "His site also hawked the anti-Christian writings of some Englishwoman convert to Hinduism, I forgot her name."[/COLOR]

That's Savitri Devi.

Petr

Walter Yannis

2004-09-05 09:33 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Mentzer]Walter Yannis

Would you consider your contributions worthwhile or informative?

Or is your purpose simply to antagonize those that return here and endure another of your sourly dupilicitous postings?

You state: 'I am in basic agreement with...' and 'I am grateful to...'

Who are you trying to fool? And just who are you attempting to patronize?

You also state you are: 'Fat, stupid and happy' - I have no disagreement with that description. -[/QUOTE]

Mentzer, dude.

You [URL=http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13797&page=13&pp=15]said you wouldn't address me anymore[/URL], and I'm holding you to it.

Without putting too fine a gloss on it, kindly take it elsewhere.

Yours most sincerely,

Walter

Walter Yannis

2004-09-05 09:37 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr] "That's Savitri Devi."[/QUOTE]

Right, thanks for that.

The fact that he felt that book to be worthy of such a prominent place on his website speaks strongly of his paganism.

While I recognize Pierce's valuable contribution to the Jewish question, his (and his movement's) paganism make political cooperation impossible. We're in different (and fundamentally opposed) movements, after all.

NA is part of the pagan movement, I'm part of the Jesus movement.

Ne'er the twain shall meet.

Walter

Faust

2004-09-05 09:47 | User Profile

Walter Yannis,

She was from France, half Greek and English. [QUOTE]Savitri Devi was born Maximiani Portas on September 30, 1905, in Lyons, France, of a Greek father and an English mother. [/QUOTE]

I would not call Pierce a Pagan, odd yes. I did not think the Turner Diaries were that good. As I said before the sad thing is many of the other so-called "white" nationalist make him look great.

Walter Yannis

2004-09-05 12:39 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]Walter Yannis,

She was from France, half Greek and English.

I would not call Pierce a Pagan, odd yes. I did not think the Turner Diaries were that good. As I said before the sad thing is many of the other so-called "white" nationalist make him look great.[/QUOTE]

Faust:

I think it's important to understand that scientific materialism - especially the Evolution as Glorious Denstiny version espoused by Pierce (and in his own way E. O. Wilson) - is a RELIGION.

The trick is to see that man is ordered by nature to have a religion. Man cannot NOT have a religon. It's in our genes. We will have one, and our religion will form the context for whatever we choose to reason about after that.

Wilson forthrightly admits that, and grapples honestly with why he believes that scientific materialism is preferable to the revealed religions in his "On Human Nature." His arguments are weak, in my opinion, but that's a subject for a whole other thread. At least Wilson recognizes the inevitablity - the unavoidable fact of our psyches - that we will organize our thoughts and our societies around religious symbols.

As far as I know Pierce never probed that core issue, but the fact remains that he had a religion. As I said, every man must have a religion - we are condemned by Nature to that. It's unavoidable. Pierce (like Alex Linder nowadays) employed the vulgar rhetorical device of claiming that his most deeply held postulates about life are not religious, and that all religion should be rejected as obfuscation!

Talk about your basic obscurantist argument.

Truly sophomoric stuff, and a man with Pierce's intellect should have seen through to the bottom of that. I can't say the same for Linder. I mean, here we are over 150 years after Kirkegaard, and he's ingnoring this issue? It's disappointing at least, and quite probably dishonest, given his apparent crypto Hinduism.

Walter

Faust

2004-09-05 16:22 | User Profile

Walter Yannis,

Yes, I agree [QUOTE] I think it's important to understand that scientific materialism. . . is a RELIGION. The trick is to see that man is ordered by nature to have a religion. Man cannot NOT have a religon. It's in our genes. We will have one, and our religion will form the context for whatever we choose to reason about after that. [/QUOTE]

It may well be a religon, but scientific materialism is not Paganism. When I think of "Paganism" I think of the pre-Christian religons Euroupe, Woden, Mars, tree worshiping Durids and such like.

Bardamu

2004-09-05 16:39 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]Walter Yannis,

Yes, I agree

It may well be a religon, but scientific materialism is not Paganism. When I think of "Paganism" I think of the pre-Christian religons Euroupe, Woden, Mars, tree worshiping Durids and such like.[/QUOTE]

Exactly: there are no deities in Cosmotheism. It is hard to imagine a paganism without deities.

Walter Yannis

2004-09-05 17:21 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Bardamu]Exactly: there are no deities in Cosmotheism. It is hard to imagine a paganism without deities.[/QUOTE]

As I said, E. O. Wilson, much to his credit, had the intellectual probity to recognize Scientific Materialism as a religion and to forthrightly plead its case to a candid world.

SM is certainly a religion, as Wilson states. And just as certainly it's not monotheism. I guess one could say that makes it pagan by default and leave it there, but SM is nevertheless clearly pagan to its core.

That's because the defining characteristic of paganism is that it worships creation (or some part of it) rather than the Creator that stands outside and separate from His creation.

By that definition, scientific materialism is paganism, because it does not admit the transcendent Creator, and limits its worshipful gaze to Nature, or Evolution, or whatever. SM worships the creature and not the Creator, and is thus by definition pagan.

I should add that scientific materialsim is usually a sort of stealth paganism, because its adherents generally deny SM's religious core, but as I've shown those arguments are easily put to rest.

At bottom it's paganism, pure and simple.

Bardamu

2004-09-05 17:48 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]At bottom it's paganism, pure and simple.[/QUOTE]

And its adherents will burn in hell for ever and ever for the unforgivable crime of worshipping God's [I]creation[/I] rather than the God creator himself? God is kind of a prideful bastard is he not? I think if God is such a monster I will throw my lot in with his victims, afterall it would interfer with my heavenly bliss to understand that far beneath me in the earth's core good people suffered in hell fire because they worshipped God's creation rather than God's ego. By the way, why is it that God is so insecure to begin with that he needs human worshipping him -- and not only that, but worshipping him out of fear rather than respect?

Walter, is all sounds like a bunch of bitter ol' rabbis making lies up for their own strategic gain -- you know like donations to the temple/synagogue/church

Walter Yannis

2004-09-06 05:53 | User Profile

[QUOTE][Bardamu]And its adherents will burn in hell for ever and ever for the unforgivable crime of worshipping God's [I]creation[/I] rather than the God creator himself? [/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm not so sure of that. I think that God wants all to be saved, including Pagans.

Of course, what He actually does about all of that is totally up to Him. I mean, it's not like He calls and asks my advice.

[QUOTE]God is kind of a prideful bastard is he not? I think if God is such a monster I will throw my lot in with his victims, afterall it would interfer with my heavenly bliss to understand that far beneath me in the earth's core good people suffered in hell fire because they worshipped God's creation rather than God's ego. By the way, why is it that God is so insecure to begin with that he needs human worshipping him -- and not only that, but worshipping him out of fear rather than respect?[/QUOTE]

Bardamu, you're falling into the classic mistake that pagans always make. You and I are creatures, and so the only standards we naturally have are those we see in Creation. And we're absoutely right to apply those standards to ourselves and our fellow creatures, because, well, that's what they were made for.

But those standards simply don't apply to God. Why? Because God made the Cosmos, and He stands outside it and above it like a computer programmer stands outside and above his program. A computer programmer, by way of weak analogy, can design an entire virtual world with its own rules, like say water running uphill, and selfishness being the greatest moral imperative. But clearly those rules don't apply to the programmer.

You use terms like "prideful" and "insecure", and that all might make some sense when talking about anything in Creation, just as a virtual person in a computer-generated world might apply his water-running-uphill rules to the creatures he finds in his world of pixels and voltages. But those things don't apply to God.

God is above and beyond all that. God invented the standard, and thus the standard does not apply to Him. God is beyond all of our thoughts and most extravagent imaginings. The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. Nothing created is eternal. Only the Creator is that, and as creatures we can glimpse sight of Him only "through a glass, darkly."

Every word we say about Him is the grossest stutter, and clearly any judgement we would place on Him is the most ludicrous thing imaginable. There's nothing quite so funny as a man - a creature doomed to die - expressing moral opinions about the Author of Morality.

Bardamu, I say with all respect, that like Job's and mine, your judgements are laughably puny. Where were you, Bardamu, when Yahweh spanned the waters? With me and Job, that's where, someplace waiting to be spun out of nothing at the order of God's devine computer code.

[QUOTE]Walter, is all sounds like a bunch of bitter ol' rabbis making lies up for their own strategic gain -- you know like donations to the temple/synagogue/church[/QUOTE]

I didn't follow you. What sounds like old rabbis?

I neglected to add to the arguments set out above that the very name - Cosmotheism - eloquently bespeaks the pagan nature of that relgion. Cosmos = Theos. That's the very definition of paganism.

I hasten to add that I have nothing against pagans per se. I know and admire many pagans. I just disagree with them on this most fundamental point about whether the Cosmos is everything (i.e. whether Nature = God) or whether God transcends the Cosmos, standing wholly outside it, eternal and uncreated Being as monotheism would have it.

I'm a monotheist.

Kevin_O'Keeffe

2004-09-06 06:23 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Maybe he didn't admit it directly, but some of the broadcasts I listened to certainly gave me the impression that his religion was all about the glorious future of the white race majestically rising beyond itself and dominanting the Galaxy.

He was pretty open about all that stated as much many times; he believed it was the destiny of the White race to inhabit the galaxy and to evolve into a form of life very similar to the basic conception of a deity.

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]His site also hawked the anti-Christian writings of some Englishwoman convert to Hinduism, I forgot her name. He was no friend of Christ and His Church, to say the least.

Savitri Devi, "The Lighting and the Sun."

Walter Yannis

2004-09-06 07:26 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]He was pretty open about all that stated as much many times; he believed it was the destiny of the White race to inhabit the galaxy and to evolve into a form of life very similar to the basic conception of a deity.

Savitri Devi, "The Lighting and the Sun."[/QUOTE]

I listened to only a handful of Dr. Pierce's broadcasts. My impression was that he pretty much hammered the same point home time after time, which got a tad tedious, so I quit listening after a short while.

Anyway, thank you for confirming my impressions.

I think you will agree that Pierce was a pagan.

Walter

Mentzer

2004-09-14 01:20 | User Profile

Many fear what they know not of.

Yet they are encouraged to put worthless and repetitive nonsense on a forum board with pretentious adjectives and adverbs in order to assume knowledgeable input and wisdom.

Utter pretence.

Still - we are alive today. And no doubt you worship your existence.

Protected are you not?

Mentzer

Quantrill

2004-09-14 12:56 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Mentzer]Many fear what they know not of.[/QUOTE] And many fear what they know well.

Bardamu

2004-09-15 02:49 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Mentzer]Many fear what they know not of.

Yet they are encouraged to put worthless and repetitive nonsense on a forum board with pretentious adjectives and adverbs in order to assume knowledgeable input and wisdom.

Utter pretence.

Still - we are alive today. And no doubt you worship your existence.

Protected are you not?

Mentzer[/QUOTE]

Do you have to be so vague?

Mentzer

2004-09-16 02:14 | User Profile

Correct.

[My reply to Quantrill - not to the above post]

Mentzer

2004-09-24 03:11 | User Profile

In general terms:

When one considers dishonesty and falsehood one need look no further than Islam and Catholicism and Judaism.

They are one and the same. This triade of evil originates from desert wastelands. From the weak and fearful. Primitive notions from the primitive of mind and therefore of thought. A two-millennium error.

There is no such thing as a religious gene. It does not exist. What still exists is stupidity, fear and ignorance.

The Protestant European Reformation of Luther, Knox, and Calvin sought to eliminate such superstition and animal acceptence. Without them science would not exist. And without science you would still be living in the Dark Age. And dying in the gutters.

Those that pray 5-times-a-day. Those that bang their heads of a wall. Those that bless themselves before leaving their homes. Are to be pitied rather than taken seriously.

And when they go mad and get out of hand - dealt with.

neoclassical

2004-09-25 00:29 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]But those standards simply don't apply to God. Why? Because God made the Cosmos, and He stands outside it and above it like a computer programmer stands outside and above his program. A computer programmer, by way of weak analogy, can design an entire virtual world with its own rules, like say water running uphill, and selfishness being the greatest moral imperative.[/QUOTE] I couldn't have found a better example for the reason that God is a whacko concept: it presupposes another world with no contiguous relationship to this one. It's inherently paranoid. And, bad logic.

Let's dispense with God and focus on life. Even if God exists, if he's all powerful (WTF) he won't mind us simply enjoying, nurturing and upholding his creation instead of trying to second guess his silent Word.

neoclassical

2004-09-25 00:31 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Mentzer]Without them science would not exist. And without science you would still be living in the Dark Age. And dying in the gutters.[/QUOTE] Respectfully: an organism with a minimal intelligence will over time find a way to live a better life than in the gutters. That's not "science." The scientific method is holy to me, but putting too much trust in "science" is akin to progressivism, which is one of the great and destructive fallacies of our time.

Mentzer

2004-09-25 04:43 | User Profile

Also.

Over time, an organism of minimal intelligence, will become extinct.

It is the stronger, more intelligent, animal that will prevail.

And the strong animal will defend its territory in order not to become extinct.

Migratory animals are often killed in great number.

But science is not 'holy'. It is purity of understanding.

Mentzer

Petr

2004-09-25 08:09 | User Profile

[COLOR=Red] - "Let's dispense with God and focus on life. Even if God exists, if he's all powerful (WTF) he won't mind us simply enjoying, nurturing and upholding his creation instead of trying to second guess his silent Word."[/COLOR]

You are here subscribing to Deistic (or Epicurean) delusion that god(s) are not interested with this world, which really makes him/them practically non-existent.

This is really a case of fallen man reflecting his own indifferent self-indulgence and laissez-faire mentality to a deity - "in His shoes I sure wouldn't be interested with this crummy world," or, "if I were in His shoes, I would let men do whatever they want."

The God of the Bible is not such a senile deity and is therefore VERY interested with this world, even if He, out of mercy, doesn't yet fully interfere with its fallen comings and goings.

This world is not silent. Like Romans 1 says, it testifies about its Creator to every man, but in their willful blindness, these pretend they cannot see or hear and worship the creation rather than Creator.

[COLOR=Red] - "... another world with no contiguous relationship to this one."[/COLOR]

There IS a contiguous relationship between this world and God Allmighty - namely, the Holy Spirit who connects believers to the Trinity.

Petr

Texas Dissident

2004-09-25 16:31 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Mentzer]It is the stronger, more intelligent, animal that will prevail.

And the strong animal will defend its territory in order not to become extinct. [/QUOTE]

Really? Then please explain what is going on with white Europeans.

A lot of us would like to have the answer to that.

Texas Dissident

2004-09-25 16:46 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr][COLOR=Red] - "... another world with no contiguous relationship to this one."[/COLOR]

There IS a contiguous relationship between this world and God Allmighty - namely, the Holy Spirit who connects believers to the Trinity. [/QUOTE]

Amen, Brother Petr.

And also as John 1:14 points out, the relationship between this world and God Almighty is eternally manifest in the second person of the Triune God, namely Jesus Christ. Fully God and fully man...born, suffered, crucified and resurrected in real historical time just about 2000 years ago.

Without Christ then Christianity becomes just more man-made myth like Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Hellenistic paganism and witchcraft.

Bardamu

2004-09-25 17:16 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]

Without Christ then Christianity becomes just more man-made myth like Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and[B] Hellenistic paganism [/B]and witchcraft.[/QUOTE]

TD, you do read the Phora don't you. :thumbsup:

Texas Dissident

2004-09-25 17:28 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Bardamu]TD, you do read the Phora don't you. :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]

:) A little, Bardamu, but I can't take much.

I do readily admit to thoroughly enjoying following the on-line work of Petr, my brother in Christ.

May our gracious Lord grant him the peace and strength he needs to remain steadfast in his chosen arena. For he is among lions there.

Petr

2004-09-25 18:26 | User Profile

Hey Bardamu, have you checked out these two threads of mine, showing how smoothly Talmudic Judaism can get along with either pagan ideas or pagan politicians?

“Why Talmudic Judaism is just another flavor of paganism”

[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14992[/url]

and

“Our Judeo-Pagan heritage!”

“[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14989”[/url]

Petr

Petr

2004-09-25 18:53 | User Profile

And here, Gary North gives a stern antidote for all those who have over-romanticized idea about the classical Greek culture:

[SIZE=4] GREEK MYTHOLOGY: THE MYTH OF CLASSICAL POLITICS[/SIZE]

Few excerpts:

[COLOR=DarkRed] "A college textbook by F. Roy Willis is typical in its laudatory assessment of the Greeks' legacy to the West: "Athens was an attitude of mind and an achievement of the mind, a unique combination of the physical and the intellectual. And Western civilization owes an important part of its character, perhaps the finest part, to its nourishment for centuries from the Greek achievement that reached its height in Athens."(5)

What the introductory level textbooks invariably neglect to mention is that Athenian male society, like Greek society generally, was favorable toward homosexuality, especially between older men and young teenage boys.(6) Women were known to complain about this, but they had no legal standing. Classical civilization, Greek and Roman, also practiced human sacrifice, a fact known to Lord Acton a century ago.(7) This fact was systematically suppressed by the academic world in his day, just as it is today. Slavery was widespread.(8) We must take seriously Otto Scott's suggestion: Christians should study Classical history and culture, not to exaggerate the virtues of Classical civilization, but to understand why it collapsed.(9) Our model should be Charles Norris Cochrane's Christianity and Classical Culture, not Edith Hamilton's The Greek Way."[/COLOR]

and this:

[COLOR=DarkRed]"The textbooks are filled with the legacy of Greek rationalism. Greek irrationalism is seldom mentioned, let alone emphasized.(17) Students are given the stories of the Olympian gods. They are not told that these gods were politically constructed composites of a darker realm: gods of the underworld, the chthonic gods of Greece.

"These animistic gods were believed to inhabit the fields of every household, threatening hauntings and revenge against any male head of household who failed to maintain the proper rituals and sacrifices. A wife was assigned the task of keeping the household hearth-altar burning, from which we derive the phrase, "keep the home fires burning."

"The study of these gods has been confined to academic specialists -- one might call them eccentrics -- in fields such as archeology and art history. The detailed researches of Cambridge University archeologist Jane Ellen Harrison and her disciples in the early decades of the twentieth century are known to very few historians.(18) Some of these books appeared in the United States only when University Books, a publishing house specializing in reprints of scholarly materials related to the occult and the paranormal, and its adjunct Mystic Arts Book Club, reprinted them in the early 1960's.(19) References to these extraordinary materials rarely appear even in specialized monographs on classical civilization."[/COLOR]

Interesting anecdote about the famous Classicist Werner Jaeger: [COLOR=DarkRed]

"Has this blackout been deliberate? Yes. Those scholars who have known the truth have generally kept their mouths shut. Consider Werner Jaeger, author of the multi-volume masterpiece on Greek education, Paideia. Hugh Nibley, the remarkable Mormon scholar and linguist, studied under him at the University of California at Berkeley in the 1930's. In an autobiographical essay, Nibley tells of his studies in Hebrew and Arabic (he could learn a new language in a few weeks). "The most illustrious visiting scholar of the time was Werner Jaeger, who favored me with long chats and frank revelations over the teacups (my refusal to drink the stuff made an indelible impression on him and his wife).

"Professor Jaeger knew very well, he told me, that the Greeks were part of a wider Oriental complex, but he had to bypass all that in his study of the Greek mind, because it tended to disturb the neatness and balance of his great work on Greek Education."(20)

That "wider Oriental complex" was mystical and occult, as Jaeger well knew. It was a powerful underground stream in both Greek and Renaissance philosophy, and without which both would have dried up.(21) The two traditions were united on one presupposition: man is the creator in history."[/COLOR]

[url]http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/gnbd/appendix_e.htm[/url]

Petr

Bardamu

2004-09-25 20:33 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]

May our gracious Lord grant him the peace and strength he needs to remain steadfast in his chosen arena. For he is among lions there.[/QUOTE]

Petr and Wintermute's debates are first class. So far as him being amongst lions, well the worse that can happen is that he loses a debate ... not very dread really.

Mentzer

2004-09-29 04:26 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Really? Then please explain what is going on with white Europeans.

A lot of us would like to have the answer to that.[/QUOTE]

The answer lies with political and religious 'leaders' of the Europeans.

I dislike long posts. I prefer in a sentence what others put into paragraphs.

Protestant and Catholic, ministers and priests, protect and secure every so-called 'asylum-seeker' and immigrant. Be they criminal, murderer or rapist. Be they muslim, African or Slav. And they are weak of mind.

I reject them and I reject what was once my Christianity. For they do not represent me. I detest their weakness. I detest their love for others that hate them. I no longer allow their ignorant lectures on humanity.

I regard them as queer and worthless. As pampered, unknowing wastage.

It is time for European men to act like men. I care not for effete opinion and those that offer it - their time will soon be ended.

They are the betrayers and also the accusers. They are also the destroyers of my country. And my people are deserting their churches. And those priests and ministers know not why. For they are as stupid and unknowing as the animal that feeds off the grass.

Their ending will bring a new beginning.

Mentzer

Petr

2004-09-29 04:55 | User Profile

[COLOR=DarkRed] - "I dislike long posts. I prefer in a sentence what others put into paragraphs."[/COLOR]

Perhaps you just don't like to engage in profound thinking?

The European Christianity is, generally speaking, a sad drag version of what it used to be, and it can be said without reservation that a huge percentage of people who nowadays like to call themselves "Christians" are really adherents to the "religion of Political Correctness", and chicken out almost immediately when Biblical doctrines get into conflict with (today's) acceptable social mores - homosexuality being an excellent example. Few Christians today have guts to tell people just exactly what the Bible thinks about them.

European priests and pastors have gone soft and rotten with their race, not their race along with them.

That's the truth many WNs don't want to face - that there might be something quite wrong in the very basic tribal attitudes of their own people, and not just in their nominal religion.

Great White Nationalist thinker Yggdrasil refuses to cop-out for an easy answer by blaming Christianity for White softness, and writes:

[url]http://home.ddc.net/ygg/ms/ms-53.htm[/url]

[COLOR=Blue]" However, the inner party's strength does not explain our weakness and passivity - our total unfitness for survival in a multicultural society.

In fact, there is virtually nothing written about our own evolutionary psychology with one possible exception.

Back in 1978 John Murray Cuddihy wrote "No Offense: Civil Religion and Protestant Taste" a brilliant piece (the title of which was suggested by Jeffery Hart and Joe Sobran back in better days!) which suggests what is lodged so deeply in the Euro-American evolutionary psychology.

As Andrew M. Greeley states on the dust jacket:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]"Bourgeois Civility ... is clearly one of the most important "compromises" by which we hold our multiethnic, pluralistic society together. Cuddihy is the first American sociologist to dig deeply into the greatest mystery of all about American pluralism: How does the nation survive? The book is critically important for anyone who finds it astonishing that a country as large, as diversified, as quickly put together as the United States has managed to endure with only one Civil War and with a bare minimum of violence compared to the other great continental pluralisms of the World."[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]In Cuddihy's own words:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]"I argue in this book that we will never know what "civil religion" is until we stand it on its head, inverting civil religion into the religion of civility." ... under the cover of its prim title, [the religion of civility] in its rites and practices, is activist, aggrandizing, subversive, intrusive, incivil. This complex code of rites instructs us in the ways of being religiously inoffensive, of giving "no offense," of being religiously sensitive to religious differences. Being complexly aware of our religious appearances to others is to practice the religion of civility. Thus, [the religion of civility] is the social coreography of tolerance. It dances out an attitude."[/COLOR] [COLOR=Blue] Cuddihy has hit upon something profound. While the rules and dogmas of this religion of civility are nowhere set forth on paper, they are universally followed and vigorously enforced in our everyday lives. Being thus unexpressed but uniformly understood and enforced, this "religion of civility" is quintessentially a racial phenomenon. For better or for worse, it is our very own racial phenomenon. It can only exist as a result of our evolutionary psychology.

What Cuddihy fails to note is that this religion of civility has no hold whatsoever on the inner party which routinely sponsors artists and art exhibitions with display "piss Christ" and other offensive works. The unending inner party efforts to drive even neutered and watered down religious themes from public Christmas celebrations is also offensive, as are their unending demands that various parts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John be ignored by Christian denominations (these demands are set forth in "Christian Beliefs and Anti-Semitism", a research project and book sponsored by the Anti- Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (1966) and the acquiescence of organized Christendom to all those demands is recounted triumphantly by Elliott Abrams in his 1997 book "Faith or Fear.")

The religion of civility is confined to the European Descendants of Christendom.

Cuddihy argues that in response to the bloody religious wars from 1500 - 1700 in Europe, a reaction set in during the Enlightenment (1700 - 1800) which gradually stripped religions of their intense beliefs, rendering them mere denominations capable of coexisting in a civil society.

Sir Arthur Keith would argue that the development of Cuddihy's religion of civility was a by-product of a 1000 year process of tribal amalgamation of Europe, during which kings conquered neighboring tribes and fused their loyalties into those of broader multi-ethnic nationalisms. During this 1000 year process, tribal loyalties were repressed by force, and tolerance drummed into the heads of our European populations by the sticks and carrots of force and patronage.

The Ole Ygg would argue that the process of tribal amalgamation was only possible in Europe because of a 5000 year old evolutionary psychology forged by the certainty of starvation in northern winters for those who carelessly offended neighboring villagers upon whom they might have to depend for survival if crops failed or fish migrated from habitual fishing banks.

In such a harsh environment, habits of civility would confer an enormous survival advantage. Indeed an invader could find lots of uninhabited spaces to settle in the northern wastes, but unless that invader was already familiar with the local fishing and farming techniques, it would perish by spring. Suspicion and hostility toward strangers were not necessary to secure genetic separation nor safety from invasion from afar."[/COLOR]

Petr

Mentzer

2004-09-29 06:32 | User Profile

Petr

I have read your post.

Make it concise. And state it in your own words.

What you say should be from you. Your thoughts - not the quotes from others.

We can all source from other places. State your opinion and stand by it.

It is the basis for discussion.

My regards

Mentzer

Petr

2004-09-29 07:26 | User Profile

[COLOR=Red] - "What you say should be from you. Your thoughts - not the quotes from others."[/COLOR]

What kind of primitive way of argumentation is that?

Does the concept of "sourcework" ring any bell?

OK, let's put it real blunt here: anti-Christian White nationalists are engaged in the pointless scapegoating when they try to accuse Christianity for the decline of Western culture.

In fact, the internal decline of Western culture began already with the reason-worshipping Enlightenment in the 18th century. Economical advancements prevented this becoming immediately obvious, just like temporary economical growth masked the cultural collapse in the 1950s and 1960s.

(Check out this perceptive article on the effects of superficial rationalism on the Western culture)

[url]http://library.flawlesslogic.com/yockey_2.htm[/url]

Heinrich Himmler himself stated to his underlings in 1942 that the decline of German birthrates began at the beginning of the 20th century, and co-incided with the alienation of German masses from the Christian religion, to which they had been previously very attached to.

(You can find that quote from this book:

[url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521823714/202-3224401-6887808[/url]

And if you study that Yggdrasil article that I linked to, you'll find out that Nordic people can to a very large degree blame their own evolutionary psychology (which needs to be changed) for their tendency to constantly fall for guilt-tripping and "can't we all just get along"-ploy.

(In the genuine Biblical weltanschaaung, righteous and sinners most definitely "can't just get along")

And you say you despise effeminacy - do you think homosexuals would be allowed to run wild today if people, clergy included, would in any way take seriously Biblical pronouncements against them?

In reality, huge proportion of those who call themselves "Christians" nowadays worship just social acceptability, and quietly ignore all those parts of Scripture that militate against the concept of liberal democracy.

[COLOR=Red] - "Be they muslim, African or Slav." [/COLOR]

And by the way - do you have a problem with Slavic people?

Petr

Kevin_O'Keeffe

2004-09-29 14:00 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr]a huge percentage of people who nowadays like to call themselves "Christians" are really adherents to the "religion of Political Correctness", and chicken out almost immediately when Biblical doctrines get into conflict with (today's) acceptable social mores - homosexuality being an excellent example. Few Christians today have guts to tell people just exactly what the Bible thinks about them.

European priests and pastors have gone soft and rotten with their race, not their race along with them.

I totally agree. The weakness of contemporary "Christianity" (for the filth, or at best, banal and boring irrelevancies, which tend to be referred to as examples of Christian worship in today's churches, clearly are not - this is clear even to an Agnostic like me) is a symptom of the weakness of the contemporary West in general, rather than a case of the church leading the people into degeneracy. If the Western people wanted strong religious leadership (or the political variety, or inspired artists & writers), they would likely have them. What they want, unfortunately, is to expend the minimun amount of effort (particularly the mental sort), and to enjoy cheap entertainments and exercise their vulgar, animal passions to the maximum extent. This is why democracy, for example, is a terrible idea; because the people desire the wrong things. They always have (albeit probably not generally to quite the present extent). They need to be told what to do (within some spheres, anyway), rather than being permitted to wreck the civilization that protects and nurtures them, through their constant seeking to selfishly slake their myriad lusts and slothful impulses.

[QUOTE=Petr]That's the truth many WNs don't want to face - that there might be something quite wrong in the very basic tribal attitudes of their own people, and not just in their nominal religion.

Perhaps some don't wish to face it, but it seems pretty obviously the case to me.

I think Ygg may be onto something wish his idea that a culture of White civility, brought about in part due to the difficulty of living in a climate like Europe, may be part of the problem. Just as the ancient Greeks differentiated between an Agon, i.e. a war between two or more civilized peoples (essentially Greeks), which was a gentlemanly sort of conflict fought between armies on pre-arrranged battlefields, and the other sort of genocidal, total war waged against Persians and other racial/civilizational enemies, we Whites need to learn how to differentiate between the way we treat each other and the way we treat foreign invaders here to exploit us.

Petr

2004-09-29 14:48 | User Profile

I consider democracy to be incompatible with a true Christianity for that simple reason ALONE that truth in not decided upon by majority votes.

(Which idea really is the essence of postmodernism)

[COLOR=Red] - "Just as the ancient Greeks differentiated between an Agon, i.e. a war between two or more civilized peoples (essentially Greeks), which was a gentlemanly sort of conflict fought between armies on pre-arrranged battlefields, and the other sort of genocidal, total war waged against Persians and other racial/civilizational enemies, ..."[/COLOR]

Hmm, I don't know. Greeks "slipped" quite often from this principle, for they waged many senseless and bloody civil wars with each other - Peloponnesian wars between Athens and Sparta being the most visible example.

[COLOR=Blue]"In 427 the Spartan fleet under command of Alcidas retreated without even offering battle, instead of helping Mitylene, forcing the city to surrender in July. But this was countered by the surrender in August of Athens' ally, Plataea, to a Theban army which destroyed both population and city itself." [/COLOR]

[url]http://www.xenophongi.org/milhist/greece/pelowar.htm[/url]

Petr

neoclassical

2004-09-29 16:01 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Mentzer]The answer lies with political and religious 'leaders' of the Europeans.

Protestant and Catholic, ministers and priests, protect and secure every so-called 'asylum-seeker' and immigrant. Be they criminal, murderer or rapist. Be they muslim, African or Slav. And they are weak of mind.

I reject them and I reject what was once my Christianity.

Their ending will bring a new beginning.[/QUOTE] BRAVO. Well stated.

The egalitarian impulse makes us "feel good" for being "nice" to others, but ultimately it descends from the religious impulses of Judaism (Tikkun Olam, among other things).

When Indo-Europeans conquer this, all else will fall into line.

We will no longer see a need to overpopulate and destroy our world, or to accept mediocrity.

We will aim for new heights.

That is the beginning of health, and every other approach is symptomatic treatment.

Petr

2004-09-29 16:48 | User Profile

neoclassical, your thinking is just frankly uninformed and laughably stereotypical.

Take a note at O'Keeffe - there's a pagan WN whose thought apparently isn't so cartoonishly simplistic.

Petr

Kevin_O'Keeffe

2004-09-30 01:10 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr]I consider democracy to be incompatible with a true Christianity for that simple reason ALONE that truth in not decided upon by majority votes.

That's what I've been saying for years, in response to people asking how I could possibly object to something so "wonderful" as democracy; I support a form of government based upon doing what is right, rather than what is popular. Democracy is just a high school popularity contest applied to national policy.

[Color=red] - "Just as the ancient Greeks differentiated between an Agon, i.e. a war between two or more civilized peoples (essentially Greeks), which was a gentlemanly sort of conflict fought between armies on pre-arrranged battlefields, and the other sort of genocidal, total war waged against Persians and other racial/civilizational enemies, ..."

[QUOTE=Petr]Hmm, I don't know. Greeks "slipped" quite often from this principle, for they waged many senseless and bloody civil wars with each other - Peloponnesian wars between Athens and Sparta being the most visible example.

[/color] There's often a wide gap between one's principles and what one manages to actually achieve. Never-the-less, the concept remains sound.

[COLOR=Blue]"In 427 the Spartan fleet under command of Alcidas retreated without even offering battle, instead of helping Mitylene, forcing the city to surrender in July. But this was countered by the surrender in August of Athens' ally, Plataea, to a Theban army which destroyed both population and city itself." [/COLOR]

The Spartans never accepted this principle at all, as demonstrated by their early enslavement of their fellow Greek Helots. This action was seen as horrific by other Greeks of the time. Mass enslavement of some barbarian tribe would have been acceptable, however.

Petr

2004-09-30 09:41 | User Profile

[COLOR=Red] - "Democracy is just a high school popularity contest applied to national policy."[/COLOR]

That's more or less the way it is.

Petr

il ragno

2004-09-30 13:02 | User Profile

Whose 'cosmotheology' has resulted in more death and more chaos and [I]still [/I] poses the clearest and most present danger to [B]all[/B] nations - William Pierce's or Leo Strauss's?

If truth cannot be arrived at through a majority vote but can only be adjudicated through a priestly hierarchy, then you have nothing to complain about. No 'majority vote' - nor even a plurality - was needed to put the present Administration ionto power; nor was a majority vote needed to justify this Administration's arrogation of national will and foreign policy, nor their rewriting of the simplest dictionary terms, such as 'freedom', 'security' and 'sovereign state'.

And all of this has been planned and guided from the outset by a 'priestly hierarchy'! They're just not YOUR priestly hierarchy.

Since you laugh off the desirability of 'democracy', let alone the mechanism of a 'majority vote'....what's the problem? In theory, you've [B]got [/B] what you want. If the reins of power have been seized by 'priests' a little bit more zealous and ruthlessly effective than your own, well, that speaks to your internal dissensions more than anyone else's. But your 'system' ...works!

That this entire discussion began with Pierce-bashing is par for the course. Because were even 50% of the voting public allowed free access to Pierce's "Who Rules America", it's possible the current scenario would be far different than it currently is.

So...since it [I]might [/I] help and [I]couldn't [/I] hurt...you demonize and dismiss it. Perfect numbskull 'logic'!

Petr

2004-09-30 13:46 | User Profile

[COLOR=Red] - "Whose 'cosmotheology' has resulted in more death and more chaos and still poses the clearest and most present danger to all nations - William Pierce's or Leo Strauss's?"[/COLOR]

Anyone with a little intelligence will soon find out that they are actually one and the same ideology at the bottom of it - that "might is right" and there is no transcendental deity whose commandments men should honor, rather than their own ideas and appetites.

Strauss was a pure materialistic Machiavellian with a strong dose of Hobbesian faux-conservatism. This was a one intellectual whose Jewishness really was quite non-relevant to his cynical worldview.

Strauss also had violent contempt towards a huge majority of mankind, "lemmings," as Pierce might have said. There is this not-so-delicate difference in not allowing the multitude to drive the state to whatever direction its whims rotate, and regarding them being on the categorically lower level of existence.

Check out this article:

[COLOR=DarkRed]" From Nietzsche to Leo Strauss, only the names have been changed, as they say. To begin with, what Nietzsche called the “superman,” or the “next man,” Strauss calls the “philosopher.”

The philosopher/superman is that rare man who can face the truth. That there is no God, that the universe cares nothing for men or mankind, and that all of human history is nothing more than an insignificant speck in the cosmos, which no sooner began, than it will vanish forever without a trace. There is no morality, no good and evil, and of course any notion of an afterlife is an old wives' tale.

In a eulogy for a colleague, Strauss said, “I think he died as a philosopher. Without fear, but also without hope.”

But the great majority of men and women, on the other hand, is so far from ever being able to face the truth, that it it virtually belongs to another species. Nietzsche called it the “herd,” and also the “slaves.” They require the bogeymen of a threatening God and of punishment in the afterlife, and the fiction of moral right and wrong. Without these illusions, they would go mad and run riot, and the social order, any social order, would collapse. And since human nature never changes, according to Strauss, this will always be so. "[/COLOR]

[url]http://www.themedianews.com/DAGGER/Head_Lines/Link%20Extras/secret_kingdom_of_leo_strauss_by.htm[/url]

The Holy Bible puts huge responsibilities on rulers, and categorically forbids them from abusing their powers or playing god.

(Quite literally "not playing god": even the worst kings of Christendom have not declared themselves as divine beings, as it is common for pagan rulers to do...)

[COLOR=DarkRed]"It is the supermen/philosophers who provide the herd with the religious, moral and other beliefs they require, but which the supermen themselves know to be lies. Nietzsche said that his supermen were “atheistic priests,” and Strauss pretends that their lies are “noble lies.” But they do not do this out of benevolence, of course; charity and benevolence are mocked by Nietzsche and Strauss as unworthy of gods and godlike men. Rather, the “philosophers” use these falsehoods to shape society in the interest of these “philosophers” themselves."[/COLOR]

In a Biblically literate society, no ruler can get away with this kind of paganistic scheming. The right for laymen to read the Bible in their own language was one of the main demands of the Protestant Reformation.

Petr

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-10-03 04:19 | User Profile

I think it is actually PerryComotheism...

Mentzer

2004-10-10 05:15 | User Profile

Petr

State your nationality.

Do so now.

Mentzer.

Petr

2004-10-10 09:02 | User Profile

Why should I do that, Mentzer?

(I might, if you would ask me more politely)

Petr

Walter Yannis

2004-10-11 17:06 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Whose 'cosmotheology' has resulted in more death and more chaos and still poses the clearest and most present danger to all nations - William Pierce's or Leo Strauss's?[/QUOTE]

What difference does that make?

One is a problem today, the other was a problem yesterday, and could become a problem tomorrow.

So what?

They're merely flip sides of the same pagan coin.

Walter