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The Persecution of the Christian Churches by the Nazis

Thread ID: 14880 | Posts: 40 | Started: 2004-09-01

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Hadassah [OP]

2004-09-01 01:37 | User Profile

[size=3][size=2]And Nazis are always burbling about how "the Jews" persecute Christians. As the most famous rabbi counseled, perhaps they should take the plank out of their own collective eye. Actually, it looks more like a log from where I sit. -Hadassah [/size] The Persecution of the Christian Churches by the Nazis[/size]

Important Nuremberg Document Made Public

It is well-known that Hitler, his advisors as well as other Nazi leaders were immersed in the occult. In simple terms, they were magicians, adepts of Satan, and they were probably demon-possessed. Hitler’s mesmerizing speeches, the pagan symbols used by the Nazis (the swastika is a symbol of the revolving sun, fire, infinity and magic), their obsession with death and killing testify to this. Hitler is said to have been a member of the secret satanic Thule Society. He read books dealing with occultism and mysticism, practiced black magic and believed himself to be the Antichrist. The Nazi leadership was forced to participate in initiation rites and Satanic ceremonies. Moreover, Hitler demanded oaths of loyalty and worship from the multitudes.

Hitler’s involvement in the occult has been the subject of a number of books, mostly English, published in the last few years. We do not wish to elaborate on this subject. The fact that uncompromising real Christians and Christian Churches were persecuted as a consequence of the Nazis’ hatred of God and His children, is less known and less publicized. But a report of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), America’s first central intelligence agency, prepared in 1945 for the Nuremberg War Crimes prosecutors, documents the persecution of the Christian Churches by the Nazis and it is posted now on the Internet site of the Rutgers Journal of Law & Religion. See [url="http://camlaw.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/nuremberg.htm"]The Nazi Master Plan, Annex 4: The Persecution of the Christian Churches[/url] (108 pages, Adobe Acrobat format).

The report “describes, with illustrative factual evidence, Nazi purposes, policies and methods of persecuting the Christian Churches in Germany and occupied Europe.”

 Overview of the OSS report entitled “The Persecution of the Christian Churches”

National Socialism by its very nature was hostile to Christianity and the Christian Churches. Indications of this fact can be found in the speeches and writings of Nazi leaders, especially in Alfred Rosenberg’s book, entitled Myth of the Twentieth Century, the most important book of Nazi ideology after Hitler’s Mein Kampf.

Christianity was incompatible with National Socialism, since it “could not be reconciled with the principle of racism, with a foreign policy of unlimited aggressive warfare, or with a domestic policy involving the complete subservience of Church to State. Since these were fundamental elements of the National Socialist program, conflict was inevitable.” The result was the Nazis’ systematic persecution of the Christian Churches in Germany and in the occupied areas throughout the period of the National Socialist rule.

The goal of the Nazis was to minimize the influence of the Christian Churches without declaring an open war on them and without adopting a radical anti-Christian policy officially. (This could be due to the fact that the Nazis came to power in a basically Christian country and continent, and an open war against Christianity would have meant the fall of the Nazis.)

 Policies Adopted by the Nazis in the Persecution of the Christian churches

 **Germany**

In Germany they adopted the policy of “gradual encroachment”, which meant that they pretended to be good friends of the Churches at first, then gradually deprived them of all opportunity to affect public life; persecuted those Christians and priests who criticized the Nazi regime and sent many of them to prisons or concentration camps. This plan had been established even before the Nazis came to power.

 **The Catholic Church**

Before the Nazis came to power, the relationship between them and the German Catholic Church was bitter. In their speeches, the Nazi leaders attacked the Catholic Church. Catholic bishops in turn considered the Nazi movement anti-Christian and forbade the clergy to participate in ceremonies where the Nazis were officially represented. Catholic priests spoke out against National Socialism and denied Nazis the sacraments and church burials. Catholic journalists criticized National Socialism in Catholic newspapers.

After the Nazis came to power in 1933, they wanted to liquidate the political opposition, especially the Communists, and they sought an ally in the Church for this. To gain the support of Catholics, the Nazi government forbade anti-religious and anti-Church propaganda and closed secular schools. In return they requested Catholics to refrain from political activity. The Catholic hierarchy then lifted all restrictions imposed on members of the Church adhering to the Nazi movement, and as a result many Catholics joined the Nazi Party.

On July 8, 1933, a Concordat was signed in Rome between the Holy See and the German Reich. Under this treaty, the freedom and the rights of the German Catholic Church, its organizations and its schools were guaranteed. In exchange they had to promise loyalty to the Reich government and had to withdraw from the political scene. The negotiations were conducted in secret over the heads of German Catholics and bishops. The Center Party, a political organization of the Catholic Church, was forced to “voluntarily” dissolve itself.

After the consolidation of the regime, the relations between the Nazi state and the Catholic Church worsened. The Nazis resumed their campaign against Christianity and stripped the Church of all its more important rights. The opposition of the Catholic Church to the Nazi movement grew. Nazism was branded as an enemy of Christendom. The Nazis sent many priests and Christians to prisons and concentration camps and persecuted the Church in other ways, too. In March 1937, Pope Pius XI issued an encyclical entitled “Mit Brennender Sorge” (With Deep Anxiety) and in it denounced the violations of the Concordat by the Nazi state and described the actions of the Nazi government against the Church as “intrigues which from the beginning had no other aim than a war of extermination”.

 **The Evangelical Church**

To gain control over the German Evangelical Church, which had a democratic constitution, the Nazis imposed a centralized organ of administration on it, headed by a Reich Bishop, whose election was controlled by the Nazis. In this way the Nazis succeeded to plant their own man into the bishop’s seat. As a consequence, the freedom of the pastors became limited and religious associations were dissolved. But the attempt to control the Evangelical Church by these means failed, because some bishops refused to yield to pressure. They were placed under house arrest. Opposition in the Church succeeded in uniting a large part of Evangelicals in protest against the Reich Bishop, who did not resign, but faded from the scene. He was gradually superseded by other agencies of Nazi control.

In 1935, Evangelical churches were deprived of their right to sue before the regular courts, thus of protection in civil courts. A new administrative court was set up for church matters except questions of faith and worship, whose president was a Nazi appointee. Moreover, Hitler created a Reich Ministry for Ecclesiastical Affairs, which was empowered to issue ordinances. This meant Nazi control over the entire Church administration. Church leaders addressed a memorandum to Hitler denouncing the anti-Christian acts of the government. The majority of the ministers who attacked Hitler and the Nazis in their speeches and writings were silenced by being put into concentration camps or by being prohibited to speak or write.

 **The Christian Sects**

“Certain of the smaller Christian sects, especially the Jehovah’s Witnesses (Ernste Bibelforscher) and the Pentecostal Association (Freie Christengemeinde) were particularly objectionable from the Nazi standpoint because of their advanced pacifist views. Since they were without important influence at home or abroad, it was possible to proceed against them more drastically than against the larger Christian Churches. Both groups were therefore declared illegal and there were times when almost no adherent of either group was outside a concentration camp.”

 **Incorporated and Occupied Areas**

In incorporated areas, local Churches were feared primarily as potential centers of national resistance to German domination. They were severely persecuted. In occupied areas, where the Churches cooperated with the occupying authorities, such as Slovakia, they were favored. In countries where the local churches supported national resistance, such as Poland and Norway, they were persecuted.

  Methods Used to Implement the Policy of Persecution

**Interference with the Central Institutions of Church Government**

The Direct Seizure of Central Institutions of Church Government

This was the case with the German Evangelical Church, as we have discussed above. In the case of the Norwegian National Church, a state Church to which 98.6% of the Norwegian population adhered, the Nazis placed pro-Nazis in charge of its central organization after they invaded Norway. As a result, almost all Norwegian pastors resigned their public office and salaries on Easter Sunday 1942.

Interference with the Normal Operation of Central Institutions of Church Government

In the case of the Catholic and some Protestant Churches, the Nazis were unable to gain control of their central governing institutions, therefore they tried to prevent those institutions from operating. Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Pentecostal Association were declared illegal, their members were persecuted and sent to concentration camps. The central governing organ of the German Confessionals, a Church made up of protesting Evangelicals, was declared illegal.

Another method to control Christian Churches was the imposition of financial control on their operation. The principal Christian Churches of Germany were supported financially by state collected church taxes. To control these Churches, it was sufficient to deprive them of all other sources of revenue and to impose state restrictions on the expenditure of state collected funds. For example, state controlled finance departments were set up for the German Evangelical Church in 1937. At the same time, severe restrictions were placed on the right of churches and other organizations to solicit contributions.

Nazis also interfered in the communication within churches. The telephone conversations of the bishops were under constant surveillance by the police. In some cases their offices were raided by the Gestapo.

 **Interference with the Persons of the Clergy and of Lay Workers**

Systematic propaganda campaigns were carried out against the clergy to depict them in an unfavorable light. Church leaders were frequently attacked, mobbed and insulted by the SA, the SS, the Hitler Youth and other Nazi organizations. Many Catholic and Protestant ministers were removed from office, arrested, imprisoned or sent to concentration camps for their pacifism and criticism of the Nazis. The Nazis didn’t want to “create martyrs”, nevertheless they murdered a large number of Christians.

 **Interference with the Activities of the Clergy**

The Closing of Church Buildings

Used primarily in the incorporated and occupied territories, such as western Poland and Norway.

Interference with Freedom of Speech and Writings

All discussion of the Church question in the press, in pamphlets or in books was prohibited by the Minister of Education in 1934. The next year, professors of theology in the universities were ordered not to participate in the church dispute. In 1935 the Propaganda Ministry imposed censorship before publication on all church periodicals and on all writings and pictures multigraphed for distribution. In 1937 the Reich Minister for Ecclesiastical Affairs threatened to confiscate or prohibit any printed pastorals.

A few cases: on Palm Sunday, 14 March 1937, the Papal Encyclical letter about the situation of the Catholic Church in Germany, “Mit Brennender Sorge” (With Deep Anxiety) was read in most Catholic churches in the Third Reich. The Nazis retaliated by closing the printing offices, seizing the duplicating machines, confiscating the copies and arresting people who distributed or transcribed the text. Similar measures were taken against the Encyclical of October 1939 by Pius XII (Summi Pontificatus), pastoral letters which dealt with Catholic principles of education and the hardships of Catholic organizations, or complained about restriction set on the freedom of the Church. In 1936 a Catholic Sunday paper was suspended because it printed a sermon entitled “The Threat to Catholic Faith.” An Evangelical pastor’s memorandum entitled “The State Church is Here” was confiscated in 1935. In 1937, three Evangelical Christian leaders issued a declaration in which they protested against a Nazi demand that the German nation give up the Christian faith. Nazis closed the printing shop and confiscated printed copies of this declaration. Evangelical leaders issued a manifesto against the New Paganism of Alfred Rosenberg. When the pastors “read this Manifesto from their pulpits, some 700 of them were arrested, 500 to be put in prison and 200 under house arrest. When the ministers continued nevertheless to read the Manifesto, fanatical Nazi governors made use of the concentration camp.”

Interference with the Educational Functions of the Clergy

The Nazis wanted to eliminate the Gospel, the clergy and the Christian influence from education. Principal elements:

[u]The Closing of Theological Seminaries.[/u] Cases: in 1939 the theological faculties of the University of Munich and the University of Graz were closed. The lesser seminaries in Austria were all closed. In 1938 the theological faculty at the University of Innsbruck, a seminary connected with this faculty, and the theological faculty in Salzburg was closed. In March 1944, the last remaining independent theological school in Norway was closed.

[u]The Closing of Denominational Schools.[/u] Before the Nazis came to power, the majority of private and public elementary schools in Germany were denominational schools. The Concordat guaranteed the right to maintain Catholic denominational schools and to establish new ones, and to employ only Catholic teachers in these schools. Religious orders and congregations were entitled to establish and conduct private schools. In spite of this, the Nazis tried to eliminate all religious influences from education. They targeted secondary schools directed by religious orders at first. Catholic orders and congregations had altogether 12 secondary schools for boys and 188 for girls, which were gradually eliminated. The c 1600 teachers who were members of religious orders were eliminated from the c 400 public elementary schools for girls in 1937. In 1938 the Ministry of Interior in Vienna deprived all private schools in Austria of public recognition and rights, then closed them finally. In 1939 the Bavarian Ministry of Public Instruction forbade the clergy to teach in secondary schools. In Bavaria and other districts, most of the denominational primary schools were converted into National Community Schools. “At the time of the outbreak of the war, the abolition of the Catholic denominational schools was complete.”

[u]Elimination of Religious Instructions From Other Schools.[/u] Religious instruction was provided, for those who wished it, in the public schools under the Weimar Republic. The continuation of this system was guaranteed by the Concordat, but the Nazis set to eliminate this as rapidly as possible: religious instruction was curtailed in schools, teachers were influenced to refuse the teaching of religion and Catholic religious text books were vetoed. “At the time of the outbreak of the war denominational religious instruction had practically disappeared from Germany’s primary schools.”

 **Interference with Christian Organizations**

Catholic organizations were protected under the Concordat. But the Nazis quickly began to suppress the activities of both Catholic and Protestant Church organizations. After the occupation of Austria, all Catholic associations were dissolved in that country. The same was attempted in Germany, but gradually. The organizations affected were the following:

Religious orders

The Concordat guaranteed the foundation and protection of any number of Catholic religious orders and congregations, the free selection of their members, their pastoral activity, education, affairs and administration. These guarantees were violated in many cases. Franciscan Friars were closed in Germany. In Austria different religious orders were dissolved or their properties confiscated, such as the society of Christ the King, the old abbeys of Goettweig, Admont, Engelzell, the nuns of Eggenberg and Mariazel, a Benedictine foundation, Franciscan friars, Cistercians.

The Youth Movement

Christian youth organizations exerted Christian influence over the youth of Germany and they were rivals to the Hitler Jugend, therefore the Nazis wanted to abolish them. On December 17, 1933 by the order of the Reich Bishop, the entire Evangelical Youth Movement with more than 700,000 members was placed under the leadership of the leader of the Hitler Youth. The Catholic Youth movement was protected by the Concordat, but the Nazis began a campaign to destroy it through restrictions and persecution. A decree issued in 1933 forbade simultaneous membership in the Hitler Youth and in denominational youth organizations. In 1935, all not purely religious activity was forbidden to denominational youth associations. “Every method of propaganda and coercion was employed in order to bring all German youngsters into the Hitler Youth and to prevent them from joining denominational organizations. Finally the Catholic Youth associations were simply forbidden in entire districts of the Reich. Physical terrorization did the rest… By 1938, in almost all districts of the Reich, the Catholic Youth Associations had been dissolved.”

Other Church Organizations

The Catholic Workers Associations and other adult organizations were put under pressure. For example, the head of the German Labor Front forbade simultaneous membership in the Labor Front and in denominational professional organizations. After a few years these Catholic organizations were forbidden, district by district, and some of them ended by self-dissolution, such as the Catholic Teachers Organization, Catholic student fraternities, etc.

 Organizations Bearing Particular Responsibility in Connection with the Persecutions

In the persecution of the German Evangelical Church, the principal part was played by the Reich Bishop and his collaborators on the Spiritual Council before 1935, then by the Reich Ministry for Ecclesiastical Affairs. The German Evangelical Church's chief legal and administrative department, the Church Chancery, was also responsible. Financial control over this Church was maintained by its state controlled finance departments. The group called German Christians, renamed Luther Christians in 1938, played an important part in the persecution of the German Evangelical Church. Lesson: as there are wolves among the sheep, so were there traitors among Christians during the Nazi regime, especially top-level leaders, who sold out to the Nazi regime and took part in the persecution of Christians and lower priests.

Unreligious organizations responsible for the persecution of Christians: Reich Education Ministry; Reich Propaganda Ministry, which issued orders for the censorship of Church publications and was responsible for the systematic campaign of defamation waged against the German clergy; Reich Ministry of the Interior, which was the principal agency for direct government action in Church affairs prior to the creation of the Ministry of Ecclesiastical Affairs and which issued orders curtailing freedom of discussion; the police forces controlled by the Ministry of Interior; the Gestapo, that is the political police; the SS, the SA and the Hitler Youth, which were responsible for most of the acts of intimidation and violence against the clergy and laity beside the police; the German occupation authorities in occupied areas, such as Norway and Poland, where the persecution of the Christian Churches was the most severe.

[url="http://www.cryingvoice.com/Christian_martyrs/NaPers.html"]http://www.cryingvoice.com/Christian_martyrs/NaPers.html[/url]

Ponce

2004-09-01 02:07 | User Profile

What are you trying to do do my dear lady? do you want the Christians to start hating Herr Hitler?,,,,,,,,, sorry but that wont work,,,,,,, Her Hitler is long gone and the Zionists are here.

I for one don't have a religion but do believe in "The Force" and I know that the Jews hate the Christians the same way that the Zionists hate the Semitis Jews.

Thanks to the Intenet I have learned a lot about the Jews and what they did in Russia and what they are also doing now days,,,,,,, the Jews will try to control the WWW by taking over but it wont work.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 02:18 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ponce]What are you trying to do do my dear lady? do you want the Christians to start hating Herr Hitler? Just giving an alternate point of view. I see all kinds of propaganda about how Nazis just love Jesus, while the Jews love to persecute Christians. That's a joke. The historical record demonstrates as much.

,,,,,,,,, sorry but that wont work,,,,,,, Her Hitler is long gone and the Zionists are here. Why should Christians have a problem with Zionists? Why shouldn't the Jews be allowed to have a state? Would any sane Christian rather live in Saudi Arabia, or Israel? In the former, he's dead meat; in the latter, he has the freedom to practice his faith.

I for one don't have a religion but do believe in "The Force" and I know that the Jews hate the Christians the same way that the Zionists hate the Semitis Jews. I do not hate Christians. Where are these Christian-hating Jews? What Jewish leader has advocated the destruction of Christianity, as Hitler, Himmler, Bormann, etc. did? I have never seen a Jewish leader do so. A Jewish leader did found Christianity, however.

Thanks to the Intenet I have learned a lot about the Jews and what they did in Russia and what they are also doing now days,,,,,,, the Jews will try to control the WWW by taking over but it wont work.[/QUOTE] A little paranoid are you?

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 02:57 | User Profile

Sixty million white Christians, killed by the jew-commies, in the the olde Russian empire is a very prudent number by all estimates.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 02:59 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]Sixty million white Christians, killed by the jew-commies, in the the olde Russian empire is a very prudent number by all estimates.[/QUOTE] The commies were atheists, not believing Jews. And don't forget about the Hitler-Stalin pact.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 03:05 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]The commies were atheists, not believing Jews. And don't forget about the Hitler-Stalin pact.[/QUOTE] The word jew and commie are interchangeable---two sides of the same snake.

The jew has been a devil worshipping pagan since they killed Christ, or if you wish had Christ killed, 2000 years ago. Christ told the jews this, and predicted that they would worship their father satan.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 03:08 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]The word jew and commie are interchangeable---two sides of the same snake. Funny, I'm a Jew and I've never liked communism. Hell, I don't even like paying the income tax. :lol: > The jew has been a devil worshipping pagan since they killed Christ, or if you wish had Christ killed, 2000 years ago. Christ told the jews this, and predicted that they would worship their father satan.[/QUOTE] What have you been smoking? Christ was a Jew. Had Jesus appeared in Germany during the Third Reich, he'd have wound up in a concentration camp. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 03:12 | User Profile

Jesus Christ was not a jew...Jesus Christ was God...and as Christ said you are the "spawn of satan"...

Hadassah

2004-09-01 03:14 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]Jesus Christ was not a jew... In order to believe that, you must reject the Gospels. Unfortunately for your jew-hating agenda, most Christians believe their own scriptures over rabble-rousing blowhards like you.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 03:17 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]In order to believe that, you must reject the Gospels. Unfortunately for your jew-hating agenda, most Christians believe their own scriptures over rabble-rousing blowhards like you.[/QUOTE] Complain to your rabbi or someone else who cares jewess...

Hadassah

2004-09-01 03:19 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]Complain to your rabbi or someone else who cares jewess...[/QUOTE] Oh yeah, there's something else you should know: Jesus was a rabbi.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 03:25 | User Profile

Complain to your jew rabbi.

Okiereddust

2004-09-01 03:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]Just giving an alternate point of view. I see all kinds of propaganda about how Nazis just love Jesus, while the Jews love to persecute Christians. That's a joke. The historical record demonstrates as much. [/QUOTE]Yes, you're certainly right there, as this forum has taken much heat for emphasizing.

Okiereddust

2004-09-01 03:34 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]Oh yeah, there's something else you should know: Jesus was a rabbi.[/QUOTE]I don't think so. I don't think any jews considers Jesus as having any legitimacy with the jewish religious leaders of his day. When anyone that acknowledges you have any virtues gets thrown out of the synagogue and made a social outcast, that's a pretty negative statement.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 03:38 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]I don't think so. Perhaps there's a typo somewhere in your response. Jesus was known in his community as [size=-1]Rabbi Jeshua bar-Joseph. [/size]

I don't think any jews considers Jesus as having any legitimacy with the jewish religious leaders of his day. When anyone that acknowledges you have any virtues gets thrown out of the synagogue and made a social outcast, that's a pretty negative statement.[/QUOTE] A persecuted rabbi is still a rabbi. Many Christian clergy are persecuted in the Sudan; that doesn't make them stop being clergy.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 03:54 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]Perhaps there's a typo somewhere in your response. Jesus was known in his community as [size=-1]Rabbi Jeshua bar-Joseph. [/size] A persecuted rabbi is still a rabbi. Many Christian clergy are persecuted in the Sudan; that doesn't make them stop being clergy.[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ is God---not a jew rabbi!

Hadassah

2004-09-01 03:59 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]Jesus Christ is God---not a jew rabbi![/QUOTE] According to Christian scripture, Christ in the flesh was both.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 04:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]According to Christian scripture, Christ in the flesh was both.[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ is God---not a jew. Although, you are correct Jesus Christ was a flesh and blood man---that does not make him a jew.

Of course you jews believe that only you jews are human, and that we white gentiles are less than human...goyim is the word you use...correct.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 04:23 | User Profile

[indent] [indent]

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 04:33 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah][indent][indent]

You kikes should be worshipping your jew rabbi Larry King, he's on CNN now...go pray to him jew...he's one of your fellow spawn of satan....of course so is his pal Ben Stein....and the rest of the CNN kikes.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 04:38 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]So what, master (as the KJV has it) or teacher, or even rabbi does not make Jesus Christ a "jew" rabbi... If he was a Rabbi (and this has been established), then what could he be other than a Jewish rabbi? He was born to a Jewish mother, claiming direct lineage from King David himself. Like I said before: Had Jesus appeared in Germany during the Third Reich, he'd have wound up in a concentration camp.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 04:46 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]If he was a Rabbi (and this has been established), then what could he be other than a Jewish rabbi? He was born to a Jewish mother, claiming direct lineage from King David himself. Like I said before: Had Jesus appeared in Germany during the Third Reich, he'd have wound up in a concentration camp.[/QUOTE] You better watch you don't get struck dead jewess...eternal despair is what you have to look forward too.

I pointed out how the King James Version of the Bible handled your comment about John 1: 38-39...and added that regardless of what you called Christ he was not a jew or a jew rabbi---He is God. Something you spawn of satan will never believe and that condemns you to hell for eternity.

Go worship Wolf Blitzer or some other TV jew rabbi...jewess.

Hadassah

2004-09-01 04:50 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]You better watch you don't get struck dead jewess...eternal despair is what you have to look forward too. Are death threats and bluster all you've got?

All your bleating won't change the simple fact that Jesus Was A Jew.

That's why the Nazis hate Christians - because they worship a Jew and revere a Jewish book, the Bible.

The Nazis hate Jews because they were chosen to receive the Ten Commandments, which stand in stark opposition to everything the Nazis stand for.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 04:55 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]Are death threats and bluster all you've got?

All your bleating won't change the simple fact that Jesus Was A Jew.[/QUOTE] It's not a death threat jewess; if you were to drop dead while reading this you would join your father satan in hell for all eternity.

Jesus Christ was not a jew he was God! This is why you jews killed Christ, or if you wish had him killed...Jesus Christ's blood is upon you and your children.

Okiereddust

2004-09-01 05:05 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]It's not a death threat jewess; if you were to drop dead while reading this you would join your father satan in hell for all eternity.

Jesus Christ was not a jew he was God! This is why you jews killed Christ, or if you wish had him killed...Jesus Christ's blood is upon you and your children.[/QUOTE]Dutchie, I know you may be sincere, but I don't think you're being as much of a Christian as Hadassah.

You could disagree without being so disagreeable.

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-01 11:06 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Dutchie, I know you may be sincere, but I don't think you're being as much of a Christian as Hadassah.

You could disagree without being so disagreeable.[/QUOTE] [color=black]We have forgotten, or more truthfully, are afraid to say what Christ said to the jews, and about the jews. We must learn to be firm with the jew once more...the source of all our big trouble today is in our moral cowardice that keeps us from rebuking the jews.[/color]

Ponce

2004-09-01 13:41 | User Profile

I see that this Jewish under thirty widower mother of a five year old kid from the state of Ga. is distracting you people from more inportant matters at hand.

Jesus H. Crist might have been a good man and a Jew or the devil or John Wayne but he is long gone,,,,,,, the problem are the Jews that are still alive now days.

Who wants to fight yesterdays wars? not me, I am alive in the here now.

Like the Jew that was arrested in France today for a antisemitic crime.

Quantrill

2004-09-02 03:08 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah] All your bleating won't change the simple fact that Jesus Was A Jew. [/QUOTE] You forgot to add that He took the Jews to task for having become totally apostate and idolotrous, was rejected and killed by the Jews, His followers were then persecuted by the Jews, and the Jews have defined themselves as the 'un-Christians' ever since. Relevent facts, no?

Hadassah

2004-09-02 03:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]You forgot to add that He took the Jews to task for having become totally apostate and idolotrous Some of the Jews, absolutely. However, other Jews became Christians. St. Paul, for example.

was rejected and killed by the Jews Some Jews, and don't forget the Roman authorities who made it all possible. They could have prevented the execution, but did not. Let us not forget that crucifixion is a classically Roman method of execution.

Quantrill

2004-09-02 03:26 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]Some of the Jews, absolutely. However, other Jews became Christians. St. Paul, for example. Correct -- and they therefore ceased to be Jews. Those that maintained an identity as 'Jews' based it upon an absolute rejection of Christ.

[QUOTE=Hadassah] Some Jews, and don't forget the Roman authorities who made it all possible. They could have prevented the execution, but did not. Let us not forget that crucifixion is a classically Roman method of execution.[/QUOTE] I'm not forgetting the Romans, but as you have mentioned, since the Jews were chosen, they should have recognized the Christ when He arrived. The Romans were simply executing someone that the Jewish leadership wanted executed. Not to mention that the Roman Empire eventually converted and became the center of Western Christianity for 1600 years, whereas the Jews maintain their animus towards Christ to the present.

Okiereddust

2004-09-02 03:40 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]You forgot to add that He took the Jews to task for having become totally apostate and idolotrous, was rejected and killed by the Jews, His followers were then persecuted by the Jews, and the Jews have defined themselves as the 'un-Christians' ever since. Relevent facts, no?[/QUOTE]Also of course in the New Testament Christians gradually came to define themselves as un-Jews. It is an interesting actually considering that the early Christians did not even think gentiles could be converted for a number of years after its establishment, and even a number of years after that gentiles were a thorny issue even among the apostles (see Galations 2: 11-14). However by the end of the apostalic era and the authorship of the NT, the lines had been so clearly drawn that John in his gospel and epistles repeatedly and almost exclusively uses the term "Jew" as a hostile, foreign entity.

This is undoubtedly due to the reputation the Jews had earned throughout the Roman Empire as the most implacable and hostile foes of Jesus and Christians and the leaders of much of the Christian persecutions.

Hadassah

2004-09-02 03:47 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Quantrill]Correct -- and they therefore ceased to be Jews. Those that maintained an identity as 'Jews' based it upon an absolute rejection of Christ. Depends on one's definition of 'Jews'. I don't know any Jews who base their identity upon an absolute rejection of Christ. In fact, many Jews not only acknowledge Christ's existence but also regard him as a great teacher. Then you have your Messianic Jews, which show that one can identify simultaneously as Jewish and Christian.

Even for typical Jews, there's much more to being Jewish than not being Christian. In fact, Jews have culturally much in common with many Christians, especially Protestants. In many cases, there is less of a cultural barrier between a Jew and a Protestant than a Protestant and Catholic.

Not to mention that the Roman Empire eventually converted and became the center of Western Christianity for 1600 years, whereas the Jews maintain their animus towards Christ to the present.[/QUOTE] However, most Christian martyrs have been killed by co-religionists, by Muslims, by atheists, or by Nazis. If Jews hate Christians with such intensity, why isn't Israel committing a genocidal campaign against its Christian citizens? Why does it allow Christians to be citizens at all?

Hadassah

2004-09-02 03:51 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Also of course in the New Testament Christians gradually came to define themselves as un-Jews. This is silly. Christians worship(ped) a Jew, many came from Jewish backgrounds, and their holy book was written almost entirely by Jews. You can't be an 'un-Jew' and worship one at the same time.

When the NT mentions that Jesus was descended from King David, it does not do so in a regretful fashion. In fact, this is offered as evidence of Jesus' legitimacy.

Okiereddust

2004-09-02 03:58 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]Some of the Jews, absolutely. However, other Jews became Christians. St. Paul, for example.

Who described his reasons elequently in Romans chapter 9 through 11.

Some Jews, and don't forget the Roman authorities who made it all possible. They could have prevented the execution, but did not. Let us not forget that crucifixion is a classically Roman method of execution.[/QUOTE]The gospels account I think (as correctly described in The Passion point out the great and extrordinary lengths the Roman authorities went to protect Jesus, and the even more extrordinary efforts the Jewish leaders made to foil these efforts of Pilate and successfully crucify Jesus.

Regarding crucifixtion, it should be noted that the request by the Jews for crucifixtion as the specific means of execution was of course in gross violation of Jewish law. It was also very unusual in the Roman empire. In general, because of its extreme cruelty and sadism, Romans did not crucify Romans, and non-Romans did not crucify non-Romans. The Jews in requesting the permission of the authorities for the execution of Jesus, also had the option of specifying the means of execution. The request for crucifixtion was very unusual, and in fact, when viewed in context, represented a very symbolic rejection of Jesus from the Jewish community, by treating him as a gentile.

Walter Yannis

2004-09-02 07:56 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]The commies were atheists, not believing Jews. And don't forget about the Hitler-Stalin pact.[/QUOTE]

H: you missed the Christian vs. Nazi wars here on OD.

My position has consistently been that the Jewish Bolsheviks and the German Nazis are both the enemies of the Church and Christendom, and that both had to be destroyed.

You are saying nothing here that many of us wouldn't agree with.

Walter

Walter Yannis

2004-09-02 08:06 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Correct -- and they therefore ceased to be Jews. Those that maintained an identity as 'Jews' based it upon an absolute rejection of Christ.[/QUOTE]

Of course, St. Paul himself considered himself a Jew, so right there it seems we can't say that one cannot be simultaneously a Jew and a Christian.

I understand that you meant this in an historical sense - that those Jews who became Christians (a great number of them, apparently) melted into the much larger gentile population, and thus ceased being self-identifying Jews.

I just think it's important to make the distinction.

[QUOTE]I'm not forgetting the Romans, but as you have mentioned, since the Jews were chosen, they should have recognized the Christ when He arrived. The Romans were simply executing someone that the Jewish leadership wanted executed.[/QUOTE]

The Jews were "unchosen" in Mt. 21. I think this means in terms of their mission to the world, to carry God's message of salvation into a Pagan world. But as St. Paul points out, the Jews remain special to God, and they're not going away anytime soon.

[QUOTE] Not to mention that the Roman Empire eventually converted and became the center of Western Christianity for 1600 years, whereas the Jews maintain their animus towards Christ to the present.[/QUOTE]

IAW Romans 11, it seems to me that their enmity in regard to the Gospel is the Will of God. I believe that we must accept the painful fact that Jews in their mass will always be our enemy, even as we acknowledge their continuing relationship with God.

The answer is to send the all to Israel, as Theodore Herzl wanted. That we we're shut of them, and they can continue on whatever mysterious plan God has for them. This can and must all be done reasonably, with due respect to the property and persons of American Jews.

Heck, it's really all very simple. History proves beyond all doubt that Jews and Gentiles are really, really bad for each other. Propinquity leads to each committing terrible sin on each other, and indeed to themselves. One need not be a Christian to see the obvious truth of that assertion.

Why not listen to Ariel Sharon and accept that fact and act accordingly?

Walter

Pennsylvania_Dutch

2004-09-02 13:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]This is silly. Christians worship(ped) a Jew, many came from Jewish backgrounds, and their holy book was written almost entirely by Jews. You can't be an 'un-Jew' and worship one at the same time.

When the NT mentions that Jesus was descended from King David, it does not do so in a regretful fashion. In fact, this is offered as evidence of Jesus' legitimacy.[/QUOTE] Once again you blaspheme jewess. Jesus Christ was God not a jew!!!

Ponce

2004-09-02 14:19 | User Profile

Now you can see why I dont have a "religion", the only thing it brings is discord and wars ,,,,,,, you guys have been drawn by Hadassah into talking about who is what and all that is nothing but Sci-Fi.

Jesus was a real man and maybe a good man,,,,,,but not the so called son of God.

The Bible was real, but,,,,,, only as a history book and not a so called holy book.

Man made Jesus and the Bible into sacret objects in their insecurity of the unknown.

Believe in "The Force" and believe in yourselves and everything will be all right.

Okiereddust

2004-09-02 15:53 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Hadassah]This is silly. Christians worship(ped) a Jew, many came from Jewish backgrounds, and their holy book was written almost entirely by Jews. You can't be an 'un-Jew' and worship one at the same time.

I don't know if you're saying my interpretation of the NT is silly, or the NT itself is silly. Because the NT itself repeatedly uses the word "Jews" in opposition to the term Christian.

Look up the word "Jew" in a NT concordance. The mode used in John 20:19

Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

It is used in other senses too of course. But clearly there was a deep cultural rift between the Christians and non-Christian Jews, even at this early time, when all Christians were Jews who still observed the Law.

I understand today if a Jew converts to Christianity, in some cases his family holds a mock funeral for him and treats him from that point on as dead. This level of ostracism and in-group identity really is very hard to reconcile with a strong Jewish identity, which is one of the reasons Christianity, in spite of its origins, so quickly came to view Judaism as a foreign entity.

When the NT mentions that Jesus was descended from King David, it does not do so in a regretful fashion. In fact, this is offered as evidence of Jesus' legitimacy.[/QUOTE] True. But not all Israel is Israel.

Paul uses the example of both Ishmael and Esau. In the same way how the way the Jews used the authority of themselves being descendents of Abraham in no way gave any legitimacy or implied any solidarity with the Arabs or Edomites, who technically had equal such claims, the Bible views Jesus patrimony as irrelevant to the issue of identification with the unbelieving Jews.

Faust

2004-09-03 03:24 | User Profile

The NSDAP is dead and gone. Related article: Neville Chamberlain, Appeasement and the British Road to War
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