Open Season For Sharon - Does the Israeli Premier Dictate NYT Op-Eds? (Chronicles)

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The term "Jewish settlements in the West Bank" evokes images of prefabricated houses and trailers, of bearded men with yamulkas and Uzis, of treacherous access roads surrounded by barbed wire, roadblocks and heavily armed Israeli soldiers.

Maale Adumim has none of that. It is a "settlement" only in the legal-technical sense, because it is situated five miles east of Jerusalem and therefore falls outside the "green line" (Israel’s pre-1967 borders).

Originally founded by a tiny group of settlers in 1976 it expanded significantly after 1982, when the Israeli government declared the area to be "state land" although it was legally owned by the Palestinian residents of the neighboring village of Abu Dis. From 1982 onwards, as the colony expanded, the Jahalin Bedouin who had been living there were transferred to another, greatly inferior site which was declared as unfit for human habitation by Israeli environmentalists.

When I visited Maale Adumim with David Hartman and Tom Fleming last year it looked and felt like a well established city of 30,000. Its middle and lower-middle-class residents were living in townhouses and single family homes more solidly built than most new subdivisions in the U.S. Many commute to office jobs in West Jerusalem on a secure four-lane highway, while others work on a massive industrial estate and office park next to the "settlement." The family we visited and their neighbors had landscaped gardens, two-car garages, and a great deal of confidence that they were there to stay for ever.

Their community was in the news recently when the government of Ariel Sharon announced plans to expand Maale Adumim and a few other West Bank locations by building a thousand new housing units for Jewish settlers. On August 17 the Israeli government published formal tenders for the contract, and a week later bulldozers were already in action north of Adumim. Needless to say, the decision violated Israel’s undertaking under President George W. Bush’s "Roadmap" not to do any such thing; the document mandated freezing of all construction in all settlements, regardless of size.

The expansion of settlements fits in with Mr. Sharon controversial plan to withdraw unilaterally from the Gaza strip and the northern tip of the West Bank ("northern Samaria"), but at the same time to strengthen Israel’s hold on the choicest pieces of real estate in the West Bank. His plan makes a lot of geopolitical sense if his goal is to create a Greater Israel—expanded well beyond the Green Line—and to carve up the Palestinian remnant into unconnected enclaves. He loses nothing by giving up Gaza—overpopulated, poor, and violent—while his design in the West Bank may have historic significance.

The narrow belt of territory between East Jerusalem and the Jordan, where Adumim stands, is strategically the most important piece of land in the entire region. It may easily cut the West Bank in two, severing a territorial link between Bethlehem and Ramallah essential for the establishment of a Palestinian state. Adumim and neighboring settlements of Gilo, Efrata and Beitar already separate Arab East Jerusalem from its natural hinterland and, coupled with the emerging Fence of Separation, will seal it off hermetically from the West Bank. Its natural expansion has already stopped, and the dream of its ever becoming the capital of a Palestinian state will become an impossibility even if that state comes into being one day. Sharon’s current bid for a non-negotiable preemptive outcome may well make the two-state solution impossible in any event.

Predictably the Israeli announcement caused fury in the Arab world and widespread criticism in Europe. It encountered no serious opposition from Washington, however; its statement that it was "withholding judgment" echoed around the Middle East like a rifle shot. American envoy Elliot Abrams, who visited Israel earlier this month, said that a confrontation with Sharon on settlement expansion would not be in the Administration’s "best interests."

The lack of serious American response was especially remarkable since Sharon’s willingness to remove unauthorized settlements, and not to expand any existing ones, used to be cited in Washington as a key test of his credibility. Last June Sharon declared that ?the rule of law and order reigns in Israel, and we are immediately beginning the evacuation of the unauthorized outposts,? but now he thinks that he can do pretty much as he pleases under the cover of the U.S. presidential election—and he is right. Israeli commentator Uri Avnery summed it up recently when he called the months before the American presidential election as "a kind of open season for Israel":

Israeli governments naturally time their most controversial moves to coincide with the American elections. The more closely fought the elections, the more attractive it is for Israeli planners and adventurers . . . [Sharon] is basing his present policy on the same calculation. President George W. Bush is fighting for his political life. He will not dare to provoke a quarrel with Israel at this juncture. So from now until November, Sharon can do much as he pleases.

No less outspoken was a column by Aluf Benn in Ha’aretz on August 22. Noting that the New York Times reported that the U.S. would support Sharon’s position on settlement expansion, Benn wondered if the Times report "was ‘ordered’ by Sharon’s aides, to show the administration’s support for him after the defeat in the Likud": "The newspaper is no less reliable than an official statement and spares the administration the need to explain itself to its Arab and European friends."

(Voicing opinions such as Benn’s and Avnery’s here at home can be somewhat tricky, but on these issues Israel is a haven of free speech compared to the United States.)

On the domestic front Mr. Sharon hopes that by expanding West Bank settlements and proceeding with the construction of the security fence he will appease his critics on the Israeli Right who object to his plan to evacuate settlers from the Gaza strip. Having received American support for the fence and assurances that he can keep parts of the West Bank during his visit to Washington last spring, he looks well poised to effect a new reality on the ground well before the winner of the presidential race gets round to the problem of Israel-Palestine—about a year from now.

The strength of Sharon’s position is reflected in the fact that his only political obstacles of any consequence right now are members of his own Likud party who accuse him of being too soft on the Palestinians. He would like to offer a grand coalition to Labor, even though the majority of his party’s general assembly reject the proposal. He now hopes to obtain their support, because such government would enjoy clear confidence of the Israeli electorate and enhance Sharon’s negotiating legitimacy. Labor would probably demand a more moderate platform for the future new round of "peace talks," but it would be neither able or willing to dismantle the fence or to return the enhanced West Bank settlements to their original condition.

The gloom and despair on the Arab side were summed up by Beirut’s moderate English-language The Daily Star (August 18), which said that Palestinians and Arabs have lost all hope in the road map concept, and in the underlying idea that the United States can be a credible diplomatic interlocutor:

The continued American-Israeli dance over Israel’s settlements and continued colonization of the occupied Palestinian territories is a central reason why tens of millions of people in the Middle East so vigorously reject any dealings with Israel and angrily oppose American Mideast policies . . . It is impossibly unrealistic for Washington to expect to engage Arab governments and people on issues like reform, weapons proliferation and anti-terror policies while it plays deception games with the world when it comes to Israel’s settlements and colonies.

What is happening in Israel-Palestine now needs to be seen in the context of the radical reversal of previous U.S. policies performed by Mr. Bush last April, when he endorsed Sharon’s intention to maintain major Jewish settlements in the West Bank in perpetuity, and when he ruled out the Palestinians’ right of return to lands lost to Israel when it was created in 1948.

That Washington will accept his fait accompli regardless of the outcome of next November’s election should not be doubted. In doing so it will not serve the best interest of the United States, and—by making the two-state solution even less likely than before—it will not enhance Israel’s prospects for long-term survival. Sharon is drunk on his own hubris, but friends don’t let friends drink and drive.

--- ### Ponce *2004-08-31 23:25* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) Stop giving American aid to this so called friends and lets see how fast all those Zionist nuclear (American) missiles will be pointing towards the USA. Lets face it, this so called aid is nothing more than black mail money that we are giving to those people in order to keep them in line. If anyone here can show me ONE SINGLE TIME that the Zionists have paid back a loan please post it, this goes also to the Jews reading this post. "When the truth comes into the light, the lies will hide in the dark",,, Ponce --- ### Kevin_O'Keeffe *2004-09-01 00:06* | [User Profile](/od/user/929) [QUOTE=Ponce]Lets face it, this so called aid is nothing more than black mail money that we are giving to those people in order to keep them in line.[/QUOTE] The billions we pay annually to Egypt is in order to keep them in line, i.e. to not make war on Israel. The billions we give to Israel is solely for their benefit; we aren't intended to derive anything good from it, as we certainly do not. --- ### Hadassah *2004-09-01 01:14* | [User Profile](/od/user/1266) I'm always baffled by this obsessive focus on Israel. In the last couple decades, millions of Christians have been raped and/or murdered by Muslims, yet few news anchors seem to bat an eyelash. If some Muslim terrorist gets his turban torn by the IDF, you never hear the end of it. So much for the "jew-controlled media". When hundreds of thousands of Christians get sold into slavery by Sudanese Muslims, "humanitarians" often look the other way. Then they turn around and whine about how Israel is Nazi Germany reincarnated. In Israel, it's perfectly legal to build Christian churches. Try to build one in Sudan or Saudi Arabia and count (in seconds!) how long it takes to get bulldozed. You won't get your arm chopped off for giving a Christian sermon in Israel. You *will* lose that arm in many Muslim countries. So why the focus on Israel? Why blame the Jews for everything? Sure, Jews have their faults; many Jews are paranoid, but with the Holocaust and all can anyone really be surprised? Hadassah --- ### Ponce *2004-09-01 01:56* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) Which "holocaust" are you talking about? there has been many of those in this world including in russia where 20 to 25 millions people were killed by the Communist Jews. Is "legal to build a christian church in Israel",,,,,,good one, but a palestinian cannot build a home in his own land. Not only are you not allowing them to build a new home but you are destroying the ones that they have now in order to "expand" the existing Jewish settlements and be able to continue to steal their land. Comparing the Zionist to the Nazis? hummmmmmmmm, well, at least the Nazi did kill some Jews fast and with out suffering, where the Zionist are killing the Palestinians slowwwwwwwwwwly and with a lot of suffering. And please my dear lady, don't compare the Semitic Jews to those Khazard Zionist that went from Europe to Palestine in order to steal the land from those who have being there for centuries. Salaam Aleikum from a Cuban,,,,,,,,oh yes, welcome to OD. --- ### Hadassah *2004-09-01 02:28* | [User Profile](/od/user/1266) [QUOTE=Ponce]Which "holocaust" are you talking about? The Holocaust. > there has been many of those in this world including in russia where 20 to 25 millions people were killed by the Communist Jews. The Communists were and are **atheists**. > Is "legal to build a christian church in Israel" Correct. It is **not** legal to do so in Saudi Arabia, one noted sponsor of your precious "Palestinians". > ,,,,,,good one, but a palestinian cannot build a home in his own land. "His own land?" You mean in the same way a Mexican thinks Texas is "his own land". The pallies are terrorists and illegal immigrants, much like the Mexicans. Simple as that. --- ### Happy Hacker *2004-09-01 03:18* | [User Profile](/od/user/118) [QUOTE=Hadassah]I'm always baffled by this obsessive focus on Israel. In the last couple decades, millions of Christians have been raped and/or murdered by Muslims, yet few news anchors seem to bat an eyelash. If some Muslim terrorist gets his turban torn by the IDF, you never hear the end of it. So much for the "jew-controlled media". Because the "Jew-controlled media" is controlled by Jews, persecution against Christians is mostly ignored, as you have noticed. You greatly mischaracterize the Israel/Palestinian conflict. All the media covered the twin buss bombings. But, unless a whole batch of civilians are killed in a heavy handed reply or unless a top humas member is assasinated, you won't hear any news reports about torn turbans and real woundings and some deaths. As long as Isreal occupies Palistinian land, Israel is the aggressor, not the Palestinians. It's mighty difficult not to make Israel look bad when Israel is the aggressor. > When hundreds of thousands of Christians get sold into slavery by Sudanese Muslims, "humanitarians" often look the other way. Then they turn around and whine about how Israel is Nazi Germany reincarnated. Because of American "Christian" Zionists, as well as many Jews in high places, America's relationship with Israel is often of more immediate concern. > In Israel, it's perfectly legal to build Christian churches. Can you support that? What does it matter if Isreal's actions have resulted in a continuing decline of Christians in Israel? > Try to build one in Sudan or Saudi Arabia and count (in seconds!) how long it takes to get bulldozed. You won't get your arm chopped off for giving a Christian sermon in Israel. You *will* lose that arm in many Muslim countries. Saudi Arabia is 4% Christian. Israel is 2% Christian. That's especially interesting considering the vast sums of money Israel gets from the US, because of the control zionist "christians" have over the US government. Also considering the constant flow of Christian tourists Israel. Also, Israel is the most secret place for many Christians. Saudi Arabia means nothing to Christians. It looks like Isreal is more hostile to Christians than Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are just more open and honest. The Christian population in Isreal is shrinking. The Christian population in Saudi Arabia is stable. Look at the nice things Isreal does for Christians. Just last year Israel shot a missile at St. Philip's Episcopal Church, located in the center of a hospital complex. Remember that standoff where Israel filled the most holy Church in Christiantiy, Church of the Nativity, with bullets, blew off the front door, set fire to the place...? Isreal likes to confine Christians in Bethlehem to their homes on Christmas. How about Armen Sinanian, an orthodox monk, shot in the back while in church by an Isreali soldier, as well as other Christians shot by Isrealis? How about the Isreali army stationing itself in Christian churches? How about the attempts by Isreali some legislators to make mailing Christian materials a jailable offense? Or efforts to put Christians in prison for years for proselytizing? How about Christian businesses burned dowin in Israel by jewish mobs? Israel expelled three Christians girls after they had lived there 9 years after the government found out the girls were adopted and weren't Jews by birth. The Jewish parents were allowed to stay. Isreal has bulldozed a number of Christian homes. I'm not aware of Saudi Arabia doing that. > So why the focus on Israel? Why blame the Jews for everything? Sure, Jews have their faults; many Jews are paranoid, but with the Holocaust and all can anyone really be surprised? [/QUOTE] Which Holocaust is that? How would it change anything if the Holocaust was just war-time propaganda? What if we all cried every day and set up holocaust museums across America for the millions of Christians killed by the USSR? --- ### Okiereddust *2004-09-01 03:27* | [User Profile](/od/user/29) [QUOTE=Hadassah]I'm always baffled by this obsessive focus on Israel. In the last couple decades, millions of Christians have been raped and/or murdered by Muslims, yet few news anchors seem to bat an eyelash. If some Muslim terrorist gets his turban torn by the IDF, you never hear the end of it. So much for the "jew-controlled media". When hundreds of thousands of Christians get sold into slavery by Sudanese Muslims, "humanitarians" often look the other way. Then they turn around and whine about how Israel is Nazi Germany reincarnated. Well for better or worse, we're deeply involved in Israel, and can't ignore what goes on there. Unlike Sudan, Rwanda or Botswanna. And the IDF certainly gets away with infinitely more than American police would be allowed to here with minorities. And its a lot more than tearing turbans. > In Israel, it's perfectly legal to build Christian churches. Try to build one in Sudan or Saudi Arabia and count (in seconds!) how long it takes to get bulldozed. You won't get your arm chopped off for giving a Christian sermon in Israel. You *will* lose that arm in many Muslim countries. The Muslim world varies. There certainly are a lot of Christian Churches and Christians in other Arab countries, like Iraq, Syria, and most particularly Palestine. And Palestinian Christians and institutions aren't treated any better by the IDF than their Muslim counterparts, even though they are much less of a threat. As for Israel - you can build a Church there I understand, but you can't do some pretty basic things from a standpoint of religious freedom people in a democracy take for granted. Such as prosyelitize or operate religious mass media - which is why many evangelists are forced to operate their Israel targeted briadcasts from outside the country. > So why the focus on Israel? Why blame the Jews for everything? Sure, Jews have their faults; many Jews are paranoid, but with the Holocaust and all can anyone really be surprised? Hadassah[/QUOTE]Just the fact that so often both Jews and Israel demand and get special treatment, so that some view jews, and the ability to discuss these issues freely, here in the same way the jews do themselves, though with a mirror like degree of virtue - that of a canary of human rights. It may just be that realistically the jews are so gifted and influential that we are realizing we need to understand them better, and inevitably in this PC age real discussion on ethnic groups often, in comparison with mainstream discussion, is negative. But we of course are indebted to the jews themselves in understanding them and the way the operate. That's why we in ubderstanding jewish issues are so indebted to people like Paul Gottfried, Itzak Shamir, and Norman Finklestein. Bt that's just the way things are here. You're welcome to partipate here Hadassah, but I'm afraid you're going to have to develop a thick skin. --- ### Hadassah *2004-09-01 03:31* | [User Profile](/od/user/1266) [QUOTE=Happy Hacker] Saudi Arabia is 4% Christian. This is absolutely false. From the *CIA World Factbook*: [center][font=Arial][size=2]Saudi Arabia[/size][/font] [/center] [center][font=Arial][size=2][...][/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=2]"Religions: **Muslim 100**%"[/size][/font] [/center] *[url="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sa.html"]http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sa.html[/url] * --- ### Ponce *2004-09-01 03:34* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) I see that you have to educate yourself about the "Communists", do me a favor, send me your Emai name in private and I will send you some info. To start with the Szar of Russia was killed by the jews,,,,, the founders of the communist party were Jews,,,,,, 7 out of the 9 members of the Polliburo were Jews,,,,,,,, out of 345 commisars 266 were Jews and out of that 178 were Jews form NY. The secret police, 8 out of 10 were Jews and the head man was a Jew. Something that maybe you don't know is that most of Russians Jews did change their name in order to hide the fact that they were Jews. I do have all this info and you are welcome to them if you would like to have it. --- ### Hadassah *2004-09-01 03:56* | [User Profile](/od/user/1266) [QUOTE=Okiereddust]Well for better or worse, we're deeply involved in Israel, and can't ignore what goes on there. Unlike Sudan, Rwanda or Botswanna. And the IDF certainly gets away with infinitely more than American police would be allowed to here with minorities. And its a lot more than tearing turbans. Well, you have to keep in mind that Israel is a tiny outpost of civilization in a vast desert wilderness. America is a gigantic superpower, so Americans can afford to be politically correct. Israelis don't have that luxury. > The Muslim world varies. There certainly are a lot of Christian Churches and Christians in other Arab countries, like Iraq, Syria, and most particularly Palestine. However, these are not countries with Islamist governments. Though in the case of Iraq, that may eventually change thanks to American intervention. > And Palestinian Christians and institutions aren't treated any better by the IDF than their Muslim counterparts, even though they are much less of a threat. I disagree. How many Christian Druze get killed by the IDF? They're too busy serving in the IDF with distinction. How many Christian Lebanese have the Israelis done away with? In fact, the Lebanese Christian Falangists are among Israel's staunchest allies and with good reason. The Muslims who get "mistreated" by Israel tend to be terrorists, their supporters, or their sympathizers. How is it "mistreatment" to wage war against terrorists, anyway? > As for Israel - you can build a Church there I understand, but you can't do some pretty basic things from a standpoint of religious freedom people in a democracy take for granted. Such as prosyelitize or operate religious mass media - which is why many evangelists are forced to operate their Israel targeted briadcasts from outside the country. Just like America, these freedoms are not 100% perfect in Israel. Compared to Saudi Arabia however they are extravagant. > Just the fact that so often both Jews and Israel demand and get special treatment, so that some view jews, and the ability to discuss these issues freely, here in the same way the jews do themselves, though with a mirror like degree of virtue - that of a canary of human rights. Why shouldn't Jews get special consideration in a Jewish state? America is a White Protestant nation, and as a Jew I have no problem with White Protestants getting special consideration here. I'm not exactly worried about Protestants mugging and killing me on their way home from church on Sunday. Muslim terrorists, on the other hand, have proven themselves extremely dangerous not only to Jews but especially Christians. > It may just be that realistically the jews are so gifted and influential that we are realizing we need to understand them better, and inevitably in this PC age real discussion on ethnic groups often, in comparison with mainstream discussion, is negative. But we of course are indebted to the jews themselves in understanding them and the way the operate. That's why we in ubderstanding jewish issues are so indebted to people like Paul Gottfried, Itzak Shamir, and Norman Finklestein. Yes. Of course, such Jews disprove the nazi assertion that Jewry is one "hive mind" that operates on a single frequency. To use a clich[size=-1]é[/size], for every three Jews you'll have four opinions. > Bt that's just the way things are here. You're welcome to partipate here Hadassah, but I'm afraid you're going to have to develop a thick skin.[/QUOTE] Don't worry, I've already got one. I'm not intimidated by the nazi chatter, it's nothing I haven't seen before. In fact, it makes me laugh when I read about how Christians should embrace National Socialism, the founders of which considered Christianity a "Jewish plague". --- ### Sertorius *2004-09-01 07:50* | [User Profile](/od/user/26) Hadassah, [QUOTE]Well, you have to keep in mind that Israel is a tiny outpost of civilization in a vast desert wilderness. America is a gigantic superpower, **so Americans can afford to be politically correct. Israelis don't have that luxury.**[/QUOTE] The U.S. won't be much longer if it engages in this sort of destructiveness. Too bad that most of your tribe that does so much to promote this by being against attempts to stop third world immigration doesn't understand this. --- ### Hadassah *2004-09-01 08:28* | [User Profile](/od/user/1266) Sertorius, I agree that many Jews promote "political correctness" and "open borders" and a whole host of other problematic policies. At the same time, I don't see how the lion's share of blame can be placed on Jews. Allow me to explain myself. The principal impetus for "open borders" is *economic*, not ethnocultural. How do I know this? For one thing, virtually *Judenrein* countries such as Sweden have the same problems as America, albeit often at a more advanced stage. All the indicia so often blamed upon Jews - low birthrates, mass immigration, political correctness - can easily be found in areas practically devoid of Jewish influence. Even Japan - not exactly a hotbed of Jewish power - is plagued by low birthrates. Just recently Japan's Sony chief - 100% Japanese, and most certainly not Jewish - called for mass immigration as a "solution" to his country's looming economic crisis. Modern science, not deceptive rabbis, brought about cheap birth control. Couples in developed countries tend to use birth control for economic reasons, not because they were brainwashed by Jews. In the modern world, shortsighted materialism reigns supreme. Typically, if a couple thinks they can save money by having only one kid, or even none, they will forego having a large family. This is nothing to do with Jews and everything to do with economics. The falling birthrates and aging populations lead to labor shortages, which in turn create a need for cheap laborers. Since current robotics tech can't fill that need, the only obvious "solution" is mass immigration. Political correctness is propagated in order to stifle any opposition to the new program. It's a policy that makes economic sense in the short-term - but is disastrous on all levels in the long-term. Make no mistake, if America becomes a Balkanized hodgepodge it will be no better for Jews than for White gentiles. Before blaming Jews for these problems, also consider this. Let's even pretend that Jews are Satan incarnate and have been working diligently as a Borg-like hivemind to bring all this about. **Jews could never have succeeded without a large number of gentile enablers. **Indeed, as mentioned before, nearly Jew-free countries in Western Europe are even more corrupt and culturally moribund than America. How can the Jews be blamed when gentiles themselves implement these policies, no encouragement necessary? It's tempting to grasp for easy answers, for simple solutions to complex problems. But I guarantee you this: even if every Jew on earth disappeared tomorrow, the same basic problems would continue to exist. Agribusiness would still want cheap labor to work the fields. Welfare states would still crave cheap labor to support their aging populations. Michael Moores would still sell their ridiculous books blaming every evil on the White Man. To solve these exceedingly complicated problems, you're going to need a solution more sophisticated than "kill all the Jews". --- ### Walter Yannis *2004-09-01 10:59* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Hadassah] Before blaming Jews for these problems, also consider this. Let's even pretend that Jews are Satan incarnate and have been working diligently as a Borg-like hivemind to bring all this about. **Jews could never have succeeded without a large number of gentile enablers. **Indeed, as mentioned before, nearly Jew-free countries in Western Europe are even more corrupt and culturally moribund than America. How can the Jews be blamed when gentiles themselves implement these policies, no encouragement necessary? [/QUOTE] You raise an interesting question. The answer lies in the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient" causes. The presence of Jews among us and the terribly negative influence they exert on Christian culture (that you rightly discern) is a "necessary" cause of the horrific cultural decay we see all around us. That is, but for the Jewish presence in our Christian American nation, the cultural rot would have been stopped long ago, whereas with Jews among us we seem incapable of overcoming our own internal cultural infections. Jewish presence is a "necessary" component of the process of cultural destruction. But it isn't "sufficient." Jewish power and influence of itself could not have wreaked the destruction of our cultural institutions - you correctly state that gentile collaborators were required for that. Thus, while without Jewish power and influence the cultural destruction could not have happened (a necessary cause), Jewish presence was insufficient on its own to achieve this destruction - this required willing gentile collaborators (organized Jewish support of the cause of gentile homosexuals, feminists, women who want to murder their babies through abortion, blacks who want welfare, for example). Jewish power and influence is thus a necessary, but not a "sufficient" cause, to the dissolution of our European, Christian and English-speaking American nation. It is the combination of our external enemies - the Jews - with our internal enemies (sodimites, aborters, etc.) that kills us. Both are the problem. Both are necessary, for neither could defeat us under their own steam. But neither is "sufficient" inasmuch as neither could have destroyed our nation acting alone. It is precisely the alliance of Jews with homosexuals, blacks, browns, aborters and so forth (aka the Democratic Party) that defeats us. We must break up this coalition as a first step to saving our nation. This means as a primary matter removing the central necessary cause - the Jews - which will allow us to deal with our own internal traitors with relative ease. This means, in my opinion, that all Jews should be true to Theodore Herzl's (and Ariel Sharon's) noble vision of recognizing the horrific damage their presence inflicts on their host cultures, emigrating to Israel and making their lives there. With all respect to Jewish lives and property in the process, I hasten to assure you. This lest the tragic cycle that makes up 2,000 of history of the Jewish Diaspora - from outcasts to dominance to hatred to terrible reacation (somtimes even genocide) and then back again - go on toward another inevitable turn of the worm. Do aliyah, Haddasah. America is a white, Christian, and English-speaking nation. You have no business here, unless your business is mischief. It's best for you, it's best for us. If you really love this country, you'll do the noble thing and leave. Warmest regards, Walter --- ### Ponce *2004-09-01 13:17* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) I see that Hadassah is the bella of the ball. Walter? I already offered her some evidence to what she is talking about, she only wants to talk about how good and smart the Jews are, well, they might be smart but good? If you answer to her long monologues you will be falling into her trap, at least she is not cursing you out like those people usually do. By the way, another antisemite crime was committed against the Jews in France,,,,,,,BY A JEW,,,,,,,Rense.com. --- ### Walter Yannis *2004-09-01 15:12* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Ponce]I see that Hadassah is the bella of the ball. Walter? I already offered her some evidence to what she is talking about, she only wants to talk about how good and smart the Jews are, well, they might be smart but good? If you answer to her long monologues you will be falling into her trap, at least she is not cursing you out like those people usually do. By the way, another antisemite crime was committed against the Jews in France,,,,,,,BY A JEW,,,,,,,Rense.com.[/QUOTE] Your point is well taken, but personally I would like to have an open discussion with Jews about their destructive influence on us and how that can only lead to tragedy for all of us. It might be a good educational exercise for our many lurkers. Cheers, Walter --- ### Hadassah *2004-09-01 22:11* | [User Profile](/od/user/1266) [QUOTE=Walter Yannis]You raise an interesting question. The answer lies in the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient" causes. A dispassionate analysis of the situation reveals that Jews are neither. Where are all the Jews in Holland or Scandinavia? > The presence of Jews among us and the terribly negative influence they exert on Christian culture (that you rightly discern) I never "discerned" such a thing. I was** pretending** that antisemitic theories were true for the sake of argument. Christian culture would not even exist without the Jews. We received the Ten Commandments. We wrote the Bible. We **protected and preserved** these sacred scriptures through the millennia. "Christian" antisemitism is a bizarre paradox; it's like hating your own parents for bringing you into the world. This is why most Christians are not antisemitic. It's impossible for most Christians to hate the People of the Book, when that Book is the very basis of their morality and civilization. > is a "necessary" cause of the horrific cultural decay we see all around us. Then why is what you call "cultural decay" often **more** advanced in Jew-free countries? > That is, but for the Jewish presence in our Christian American nation, the cultural rot would have been stopped long ago, whereas with Jews among us we seem incapable of overcoming our own internal cultural infections. So Sweden should be a conservative, traditionalist, Lutheran paradise, with large families and bountiful farms. Why isn't it? > Jewish presence is a "necessary" component of the process of cultural destruction. Hogwash. > Do aliyah, Haddasah. America is a white, Christian, and English-speaking nation. Jews belong here every bit as much as Catholics do, if not moreso. We Jews were here from the very beginning. We were praised by George Washington and other Founders. We helped finance the American Revolution. The Pilgrims and Puritans took inspiration from our sufferings and triumphs, as recorded in the Torah. How can *you* tell Jews to leave America, at least with a straight face? > You have no business here, unless your business is mischief. My family has roots that go back to the beginnings of these United States. I have ancestors who fought in the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy. Their sacrifices more than give me the right to be here. They were shedding blood for sovereignty and freedom back when your ancestors were probably still harvesting potatoes in Ireland. I was born here in America. I grew up here. I got married here. I conceived and gave birth here. I don't take kindly to being told to leave. May G-d have mercy upon your troubled soul. Hadassah --- ### Ponce *2004-09-01 22:58* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) Hadassah says that the Jews "helped finance the American Revolution" but what she forgot to tell you is that they financed "both" sides..... the same thing that they did with Napoleon Bonaparte and also when they gave five millions bucks to Herr Hitler........ Those people like to play it safe, they give to both sides just to be on the safe side. The Jews were in America from the beginning, well almost true, there was a carpenter a doctor and a sailor when Culumbus made his first trip to the Americas not to America,,,,,however,,,,,,, my 14 great grandfather "Juan Ponce de Leon" was the first white man to step ashore in the US on Pascuas Florida, does this means that I now can claim the USA as my own?...... Hadassah???????? let me ask you something,,,,, if the President of the US were to give you sorder to go and fight the Israelis in Palestine, would you do it? Remember now, you family has been here from the beginning and you were also born here,,,,,,,, do tell please. I have asked this question of about 200 Jews and their answer have always being either NO or HELL NO. --- ### Quantrill *2004-09-02 02:46* | [User Profile](/od/user/1098) [QUOTE=Hadassah]Christian culture would not even exist without the Jews. We received the Ten Commandments. We wrote the Bible. We **protected and preserved** these sacred scriptures through the millennia. "Christian" antisemitism is a bizarre paradox; it's like hating your own parents for bringing you into the world. This is why most Christians are not antisemitic. It's impossible for most Christians to hate the People of the Book, when that Book is the very basis of their morality and civilization. This is not entirely true. Christianity is NOT based on the Old Testament; it is based on the New Testament, which 'the Jews' did not author. Furthermore, Christ's most vigourous denunciations were aimed squarely against the Pharaisees, whose tortured interpretation of the Mosaic Law forms the basis of modern Judaism. Traditionally, Christianity has been very wary of the Jews and their influence on a Christian society, and with good reason. Since the time of Jesus, the defining characteristic of Judaism is anti-Christianity. [QUOTE=Hadassah] Then why is what you call "cultural decay" often **more** advanced in Jew-free countries? First of all, it is quite debatable whether Sweden is in a more advanced state of cultural decay than the USA. Secondly, a country doesn't have to have a large number of Jews actually living there to be afflicted by movements that have been majority Jewish, such as Communism, Boasian anthropology, and the trafficking of pornography. [QUOTE=Hadassah]Jews belong here every bit as much as Catholics do, if not moreso. I must respectfully disagree. A true nation is a group of people united by blood, history, and culture, which includes religion. This means that Jews will never truly 'belong' in a Christian nation. And if you say that we have no 'right' to form a Christian nation, perhaps you would explain the logic used to justify the right of Jews to the state of Israel? --- ### Hadassah *2004-09-02 04:12* | [User Profile](/od/user/1266) [QUOTE=Quantrill]This is not entirely true. Christianity is NOT based on the Old Testament; it is based on the New Testament, which 'the Jews' did not author. If Christianity is not even partly based upon the Old Testament, why is the OT included in the Christian Bible? The OT comprises the largest part of Christian scripture. > Furthermore, Christ's most vigourous denunciations were aimed squarely against the Pharaisees But not all Jews, otherwise he would have been denouncing himself. > Traditionally, Christianity has been very wary of the Jews and their influence on a Christian society, and with good reason. This wariness has been greatly overstated, mainly by atheists who want to discredit Christianity by exaggerating (or in many cases, outright inventing) its supposed antisemitism. One would think that such Jew-wary people would have not allowed Jews to live in their midst, let alone sit on royal courts. But they did. > Since the time of Jesus, the defining characteristic of Judaism is anti-Christianity. You keep repeating this, but I just don't see it. Judaism is a very ancient tradition with a much richer heritage than that. > First of all, it is quite debatable whether Sweden is in a more advanced state of cultural decay than the USA. It is unquestionably less religious (i.e. lower church attendance); homosexuality is more accepted; birthrates are lower; taxes are higher; illegitimacy is more common. Perhaps you do not see these as indicative of cultural decay. > Secondly, a country doesn't have to have a large number of Jews actually living there to be afflicted by movements that have been majority Jewish, such as Communism, Boasian anthropology, and the trafficking of pornography. None of these 'movements' have been majority-Jewish, neither in propagators nor consumers. > I must respectfully disagree. A true nation is a group of people united by blood, history, and culture, which includes religion. This means that Jews will never truly 'belong' in a Christian nation. By the same logic, Catholics would be excluded from a primarily Protestant nation. After all, Protestants typically do not consider Catholicism to be legitimate Christian doctrine. There is a shared cultural heritage between Jews and Christians, especially Jews and Protestants. > And if you say that we have no 'right' to form a Christian nation, perhaps you would explain the logic used to justify the right of Jews to the state of Israel?[/QUOTE] You have every right to form a Christian nation; that is, a nation first and foremost for Christians. However, that's a far cry from a state that forces Jews to leave. Israel is indeed a Jewish state, but you will note that it has Christian citizens. Its naturalization process is open to Christians, though the 'right of return' is restricted to Jews. I would have no problem with the United States having similar policies geared toward White Protestant preservation, with both Jews and Catholics taking a backseat to the Protestant majority. However, I don't think you have any right to make me leave my birthplace. My family goes back to America's beginnings, and is woven into the very fabric of this nation. --- ### Okiereddust *2004-09-02 05:36* | [User Profile](/od/user/29) [QUOTE=Hadassah]"Christian" antisemitism is a bizarre paradox; it's like hating your own parents for bringing you into the world. This is why most Christians are not antisemitic. It's impossible for most Christians to hate the People of the Book, when that Book is the very basis of their morality and civilization. Well technically its impossible for real Christians to hate anybody, based on the Bible and especialy the New Testament. But that hasn't stopped Jewish authors in general from claiming Christianity and the NT is the root of anti-semitism. At least an equally absurb claim. [quote=Hadassah]Then why is what you call "cultural decay" often **more** advanced in Jew-free countries? So Sweden should be a conservative, traditionalist, Lutheran paradise, with large families and bountiful farms. Why isn't it? [quote=quantrill]Jewish presence is a "necessary" component of the process of cultural destruction. Hogwash. This argument about Jews, and also bringing in Scandanavia, was interestingly the subject of an exchange between Paul Gottfried and Kevin MacDonald. Gottfried agreed that Jews can be a sufficient component of cultural decay in some cases, but denied they were necessary, while MacDonald thought them necessary **and **sufficient. Personally I think Scandanavia is significant, but hard to overgeneralize on. Scandanavia is a small, somewhat unique place. Recent events at OD makes us aware of how easy it is to metaphorically use Scandavia as a hiding place for otherwise unviable ideas. [quote=Hassadah]Jews belong here every bit as much as Catholics do, if not moreso. We Jews were here from the very beginning. We were praised by George Washington and other Founders. We helped finance the American Revolution. The Pilgrims and Puritans took inspiration from our sufferings and triumphs, as recorded in the Torah. How can *you* tell Jews to leave America, at least with a straight face? Quite right. The Puritan friendship with the Jews dates back of course to Cromwell's time, when he opened Britain to Jewish refugees - quite probably seeing them as fellow sufferers from religious persecution from European Catholicism and Monarchy. Sad of course that modern Jewish thought, typified by the Frankfurt Schol, especially demonizes American Puritan tendencies. Of course modern Jewish-American thought (dominated of course by Jews of Eastern European descent) , as Norman Podhoretz stated, views America's historical legacy as about as relevent to him as the War of the Roses. > My family has roots that go back to the beginnings of these United States. I have ancestors who fought in the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy. Their sacrifices more than give me the right to be here. They were shedding blood for sovereignty and freedom back when your ancestors were probably still harvesting potatoes in Ireland. Along these lines of course there was a recent book titled "Jewish Confederates" which details their prominent role in the Confederacy, in the Army and up to the Secretary of the Treasury, Judah Benjamin. The book as Alan Dershowitz noted was very iconoclastic to modern Jewish-American opinions of the Confederacy as equivalent to Nazi Germany. > I was born here in America. I grew up here. I got married here. I conceived and gave birth here. I don't take kindly to being told to leave. May G-d have mercy upon your troubled soul. Hadassah[/QUOTE] Well we all were born in America, and we alike are today implicitely being told to surrender our land by modern multiculturalism, in which Jewish individuals as well as groups such as the ADL are very prominent. Do try and understand our frustration. --- ### Kevin_O'Keeffe *2004-09-02 07:04* | [User Profile](/od/user/929) [QUOTE=Hadassah]The Holocaust. Your use of capital letters implies that the mass slaughter (the official figure of six million is almost certainly inflated, but we'll use it for the sake of argument) of 6 million Jews was somehow a more significant event that other mass slaughters, such as the 8-12 million Ukranians massacred by the Jew Lazar Kaganovich and his cadre of nearly all-Jewish Commissars. How can the lives of six millions Jews be more important than the lives of 8-12 million Ukranians? [QUOTE=Hadassah]The Communists were and are **atheists**. Its all very well and good to say that, but Alan Dershowitz is no less of a Jew for his Atheism, and everyone knows it. Let's not kid ourselves here - **there is an ethnic component to Judaism**, as well as a religious one. If this were not so, than conversion and inter-marriage would not be treated as they are. [QUOTE=Hadassah]The pallies are terrorists and illegal immigrants, much like the Mexicans. Simple as that.[/QUOTE] Arabs have been living in Palestine for over a thousand years. They were the majority of the population from about 700 A.D., until mass immigration from Europe after World War II changed the balance (although they will soon be the majority again, unless you massacre them, or send them to some country they haven't lived in for over an eon - at some point, one ceases to be an "immigrant" and simply becomes part of the indigenous population - the way Whites have done so in America and Australia, for example). --- ### Kevin_O'Keeffe *2004-09-02 07:19* | [User Profile](/od/user/929) [QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Your point is well taken, but personally I would like to have an open discussion with Jews about their destructive influence on us and how that can only lead to tragedy for all of us.[/QUOTE] Yes, in the long run, Jewish & "liberal"/neo-"conservative" policies may well destroy the White race, but they will certainly destroy the Jews. Its entirely within the best interests of the Jews for them to start listening to the people they so often decry as "anti-Semites." --- ### Walter Yannis *2004-09-02 07:31* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE]I never "discerned" such a thing. I was** pretending** that antisemitic theories were true for the sake of argument. [/QUOTE] No need to pretend, Haddassah. The argument is true. [QUOTE]Christian culture would not even exist without the Jews. We received the Ten Commandments. We wrote the Bible. We **protected and preserved** these sacred scriptures through the millennia. "Christian" antisemitism is a bizarre paradox; it's like hating your own parents for bringing you into the world. This is why most Christians are not antisemitic. It's impossible for most Christians to hate the People of the Book, when that Book is the very basis of their morality and civilization. [/QUOTE] Certainly the Jews were God's chosen people. As Jesus said, "salvation is from the Jews." [QUOTE]John 4 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: [B]for salvation is of the Jews.[/B][/QUOTE] But Jesus "de-chose" the Jews and replaced them with the Church. [QUOTE]Mathew 21 43 Therefore say I unto you, [QUOTE]The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof[/QUOTE]. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and [B]Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them[/B].[/QUOTE] As St. Paul tells us directly, the Jews killed Jesus (a point upon which the Talmud agrees completely with the Gospels, even though the two accounts differ on the details. I therefore fail to understand Jewish objections on this point.). Anyway, more to the point, the Pharisees killed Jesus. [QUOTE]Thessalonians 2 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the [B]Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, [/B] and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.[/QUOTE] Now, most modern day religious Jews proclaim their decent and loyalty to the Pharisees - the blood enemies of Christ. The Talmud is a Pharisaical tract, after all. As most modern day Jews are Pharisees, it shouldn't be surprising that they are, in their mass, the enemies of Christ and His Church. St. Paul makes this point abundantly clear in the Epistle to the Romans - the Jews are the "enemies of the Gospel." But then again as Paul also makes crystal clear, God made the Jews the enemies of the Gospel for our sake, so that we gentiles could be grafted on to His plan of salvation that began with the calling of Abraham, our father in the Faith. [QUOTE]Romans 11 28 As concerning the [B]gospel, they are enemies [/B] for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 [B]For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.[/B]33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out![/QUOTE] As St. Paul points out, the fact of the Jews is a great mystery that is to be lived, not solved. God's promise remains with the Jews, yet in their mass have been made the enemies of the Truth for our sake. How are we to understand that? We all struggle with this mystery - a mystery that St. Paul tells us directly that is way beyond our ken. My conclusion is that while we must have a special place in our hearts for the Jews, frankly acknowledging the central and continuing role God has assigned them in the history of Salvation and indeed a debt of gratitude to the Jews for bringing forth Christ, we must also recognize clearly that God Himself has made the Jews the enemies of all who would build a just and Christian society. Clearly, then to bring the Jews into a Christian society is to harbour an enemy - a "viper" as Jesus called the Pharisees - in our very breast. Therefore I agree wholeheartedly with the Zionists, such as Theodore Herzl, who frankly admitted the plight of the gentile host nations harbouring the Jews in their midsts, and who wanted the Jews to live separately out of his love for the Jews and his desire to do no harm to us. Ariel Sharon is another. I have no quarrel with those men, at least on this very central point. This makes me something of an exception here at OD, by the way. I'm the resident Zionist, and like all good Zionists my reasoning proceeds from a frank admission of the impossibility of the Jews to live peacefully among the nations. Others here hate Israel and want to see it destroyed, but I am not one of them. I see Israel as the only viable way of removing the viper from our national breast. [QUOTE]Then why is what you call "cultural decay" often **more** advanced in Jew-free countries? So Sweden should be a conservative, traditionalist, Lutheran paradise, with large families and bountiful farms. Why isn't it? Hogwash. [/QUOTE] As I've already explained, the Jews are a necessary, but not a sufficient, cause. There are other causes at work. Or should I say "cause"? The root of the problem has always been one of Paganism vs. Monotheism. These Pagan influences include especially Masonry, a profoundly Pagan movement that springs from the same poison root as the paganistic Jewish Kabbalah. Of course, Jews always played an important and very destructive role in the Masonic movement. In my opinion, Masonry was the delivery system that injected the profoundly pagan virus of the Jewish Kabbalah into our collective soul. Marxism - another profoundly Jewish form of cultural cancer - is another such influence. The Marxist infection has metasticized into a thousand new forms, including femism, homosexualism, deconstructionism, and so forth that are all lead and inspired by Jews. Add in the ersatz "sciences" of Boasian sociology and Freudian psychology, and we have the entire Jewish complex of spiritual diseases commonly referred to nowadays as Pee Cee. But as I said they all share the same root - Paganism. The point is that we can't rid ourselves of this Pagan infection until we first remove from ourselves its primary carriers - the Jews. [QUOTE]Jews belong here every bit as much as Catholics do, if not moreso. We Jews were here from the very beginning. We were praised by George Washington and other Founders. We helped finance the American Revolution. The Pilgrims and Puritans took inspiration from our sufferings and triumphs, as recorded in the Torah. How can *you* tell Jews to leave America, at least with a straight face?[/QUOTE] For the same reasons Ariel Sharon tells Jews to leave America, or France, or wherever. History proves that Jews cannot live in peace with their neighbors. As I've said a couple of times, the great Zionists all recognize this point. You seem to love Israel ("only outpost of civilization in the Middle East!" - sheesh), yet you reject the direct admonishons of Israel's founders. So let me turn the question around on you: who are you to disagree with Theodore Herzl and his spiritual progeny, given your apparent approval of their program? [QUOTE]My family has roots that go back to the beginnings of these United States. I have ancestors who fought in the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy. Their sacrifices more than give me the right to be here. They were shedding blood for sovereignty and freedom back when your ancestors were probably still harvesting potatoes in Ireland. [/QUOTE] Your sneering contempt for the Christian Irish is duly noted, a fact that answers most eloquently the question as to why you and other Jews should simply follow the advice of the great Zionists and leave Christian America forthwith. [QUOTE]I was born here in America. I grew up here. I got married here. I conceived and gave birth here. I don't take kindly to being told to leave. [/QUOTE] Haddasah, believe it or not, I wish you well. Indeed, I am far more of a friend to you in pointing out these hard facts than those who would lull you into some fantasy about things somehow being different for Jews this time in America, all historical precedent to the contrary. Again and again I point out that it is precisely I who agree with the Zionists on this point. If you accept that the Jewish Zionists are your friends, why do you reject the same message when you hear it from a gentile? [QUOTE]May G-d have mercy upon your troubled soul. [/QUOTE] Thanks. I assure you that I'm banking very heavily on the Infinite Mercy of God. Speaking of the condition of my soul, do you subscribe to the Kabbalistic believe that gentiles have animal souls, as opposed to the devine, uncreated light contained in Jewish souls? It's a fair question, since you brought up the subject. Warmest regards, Walter --- ### Hadassah *2004-09-02 08:37* | [User Profile](/od/user/1266) Walter; You make some good points. I must confess, I have had many thoughts, reveries and dreams of Israel. When I'm out playing in the grass with my daughter, sometimes I can feel Israel tugging at my dress just as surely as the wind blows between my shins. When I stir out of sleep I can often hear Israel calling my name. I do feel a genuine affection for America, her beautiful countryside, her people. My family and I do have roots here, but I must ask myself: do our roots in Israel not go deeper? This is the question that I must face, that every Jew in America must face. It is a question that sooner or later, we will have to answer. Allow me to apologize if I gave any impression of disrespect toward the Christian Irish. That was not my intention. I would like to point out that I strongly support the concept of Christian Nationalism. Why? Most importantly, I know that Christian Nationalists will never kill me, or kill my daughter. Even though I was taught to fear Christians, my own research shows me that Christians are much kinder than Nazis. Christians are imbued with a moral understanding that Nazis lack. Under a Nazi regime, I would have nothing to look forward to but death, to end the pain of torture and dispossession. But I do not want death. I want life for me and mine. Truth be told, the primary reason I oppose Nazism is not its "paganism". My main motivation is far more visceral: **Nazis want to kill me and mine.** There is no question as to whether American nationalism will rise again; the only question is when and how. When? The sooner the better. How? For reasons already stated, among others, I would much prefer Christian Nationalism over National Socialism. In fact, were there a visible Christian Nationalist party I would not hesitate to donate my hard-earned money. It is worth stating that if the diaspora finally comes to an end in favor of absolute aliyah, Israel will need to claim her Biblically promised borders. The tiny sliver of territory currently held is much too small to fit the bill. It is too small for the Jews already living there, let alone all the Jews in the world. I trust that Christian Nationalists will understand the need for this expansion of territory, and cheerfully mind their own business. I must continue to digest your words and further process my thoughts. You have given me much to think about. Thank you, Walter. L'Chayim; Hadassah --- ### Walter Yannis *2004-09-02 10:29* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE]Hadassah]Walter; You make some good points. [/QUOTE] That's very gracious of you to say, Hadassah, thank you. [QUOTE]I must confess, I have had many thoughts, reveries and dreams of Israel. When I'm out playing in the grass with my daughter, sometimes I can feel Israel tugging at my dress just as surely as the wind blows between my shins. When I stir out of sleep I can often hear Israel calling my name. I do feel a genuine affection for America, her beautiful countryside, her people. My family and I do have roots here, but I must ask myself: do our roots in Israel not go deeper?[/QUOTE] Of course they go deeper. God Himself made you a Jewess, and so your Jewish-ness lies at the very heart of your being. And this has always been the problem with the diaspora. Heck, a glance at today's headlines is enough to confirm deeply divided loyalties among American Jews, the [URL=http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?p=89823#post89823]current AIPAC scandal [/URL] being just the latest episode in a long history of American Jewish betrayal of American secrets. Read [URL=http://www.vdare.com/misc/white_without_honor.htm]Stephen Steinlight's revelations [/URL] about organized Jewry's engineering of America's immigration policy to achieve a non-white America. Of course, "divided loyalty" is an oxymoron: "divided loyalty" is in fact "disloyalty" or perhaps better "treason." And that's exactly what characterizes American Jew, in their mass. They have been always - again in their mass and with numerous exceptions - traitors to the white, Christian, and English-speaking nation that was foolish enough to give them shelter from persecution in Europe. From the many American Jews like Greenglass and the Rosenbergs who [URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300084625/qid=1094122191/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-5062682-1108832?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]gave Stalin the bomb [/URL] to Jonathan [URL=http://www.tnr.com/easterbrook.mhtml?pid=701]Pollard[/URL] to the [URL=http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php]Israeli "art students"[/URL] and their mysterious role in 9-11, the record proves pervasive Jewish disloyaty to my beloved white, Christian and English-speaking American nation beyond any reasonable doubt. No sane nation would tolerate their presence after a single such instance. But then again, our collective mental health is precisely the issue. [QUOTE]This is the question that I must face, that every Jew in America must face. It is a question that sooner or later, we will have to answer. [/QUOTE] Right you are. But it isn't just American Jews who must face up to this hard question. We gentiles who make up the great bulk of this nation's citizenry must also face up to this painful choice. The answer is obvious: your first loyalty is to Jews and Israel, and you cannot help but in the long run place Jewish and Israeli interests first in your heart, before American interests. I do not doubt your love for America, at least as a matter of sentiment, but we also must rise above all that and view the thing dispassionately. We Americans and you Jews residing here must get honest with ourselves about this. Jews must go to Israel. And Africans must go to Africa. I stress yet again for the avoidance of misunderstanding that this must be done only with due regard to the persons and property of emigrants. [QUOTE]Allow me to apologize if I gave any impression of disrespect toward the Christian Irish. That was not my intention. [/QUOTE] Graciously accepted. [QUOTE]I would like to point out that I strongly support the concept of Christian Nationalism.[/QUOTE] Great. You can make a major contribution by moving to Israel, renoucing your American citizenship, and encouraging other Jews to do the same. [QUOTE]Most importantly, I know that Christian Nationalists will never kill me, or kill my daughter.[/QUOTE] You can count on that. A just man gives everybody their due, and that means everybody's rights are respected. Those rights include the rights to life, liberty, and property. I reject violence, except of course as a matter of dire self defense. I strongly condemn any sort of mob violence against any person located in the United States. I think that I speak for nearly everyone here on OD when I say that, too. We're Americans, after all. We believe in ordered liberty. There will be order in all of this. [QUOTE]Even though I was taught to fear Christians,[/QUOTE] Thank you for that frank admission. You know, very few Christians realize that Jews drink in fear (and fear's necessary concommitant - hatred) of Christianity with their mother's milk. Having been taught no such thing about the Jews - indeed, most believe the current Big Lie that Jews are just Christians without Christ - they find it difficult to even imagine the violent animus their Jewish neighbors harbor toward them. They don't understand that Jews look at Brad and Janet from First Presbyterian and see Hetman Khmelnitsky and Eva Braun. Since Jews hate and fear Christianity (their frothing-at-the-mouth hysterics at the sight of Gibson's benign Passion of Christ is proof enough of this), and since the great majority of Americans are Christian (at least nominally), it is clear that JEWS HAVE NO BUSINESS HERE. Unless as I said previously their business is mischief. [QUOTE]my own research shows me that Christians are much kinder than Nazis. [/QUOTE] Gee, thanks. [QUOTE]Christians are imbued with a moral understanding that Nazis lack. [/QUOTE] I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't call it "natural." The Nazis were essentially Pagans of one stripe or another, ranging from Wotanists to Scientific Materialists, but they all had in common a deep respect - indeed worship - of Nature. Their morality was the morality of the jungle, and in that sense I can scarcely think of anything more thoroughly "natural" than Nazism's morality. But we Christians do not worship Nature, but rather Nature's God. We believe in a transcendant God Who stands above and outside His Creation. We further believe that God's morality is revealed in Scripture - a devine intervention from outside Nature to us. Thus, we Christians are in that sense very "unnatural." Our morality is fire from Beyond. While we discover in Nature facts that point in reason to the intent of the Transcendant Creator, we also know that this Natural Law cannot properly be understood outside the context of Scripture and Holy Tradition. Which is why I always tell my Jewish colleagues that they are very, very foolish to attack Christianity in the hopes of giving us a more "natural" morality. The German Nazis showed precisely what that means. I should add that the Jewish Bolsheviks taught the Nazis how to do it. Jews hate and fear the meek Jesus of Nazareth who longed to gather the Jews to himself like a hen gathers its chicks under wing. How very odd. As if they didn't already get a load of The Hammer of Thor. [QUOTE]Under a Nazi regime, I would have nothing to look forward to but death, to end the pain of torture and dispossession. But I do not want death. I want life for me and mine. Truth be told, the primary reason I oppose Nazism is not its "paganism". My main motivation is far more visceral: **Nazis want to kill me and mine.** [/QUOTE] Well, all nations who have experienced the parasitic depradations of the Jews are prompted in Nature to reaction, which tragically has been often violent. My point is that Christianity is a most "unnatural" restraint on those very "natural" impulses gentiles must inevitably feel toward Jews. Christianity is the only thing holding it back. [QUOTE]There is no question as to whether American nationalism will rise again; the only question is when and how. When? The sooner the better. How? For reasons already stated, among others, I would much prefer Christian Nationalism over National Socialism. In fact, were there a visible Christian Nationalist party I would not hesitate to donate my hard-earned money.[/QUOTE] Well, there is the Constitution Party, but I have my doubts about any Christain party that would have a Jew as its head. Sounds like an ADL false flag operation to me. There is also OD - Tex accepts donations to assist in defraying the costs. [QUOTE]It is worth stating that if the diaspora finally comes to an end in favor of absolute aliyah, Israel will need to claim her Biblically promised borders. [/QUOTE] Fine, as long as we don't have to pay for it. Of course, we'll also have to talk about the enormous bill Israel owes the US Treasury. I'm sure we can work out an installment plan. [QUOTE] I must continue to digest your words and further process my thoughts. You have given me much to think about. Thank you, Walter. L'Chayim; Hadassah[/QUOTE] Thank you most sincerely, Hadassah, and I hope to hear from you soon. Walter PS: Could you also please respond to the question posed above: [QUOTE]Speaking of the condition of my soul, do you subscribe to the Kabbalistic believe that gentiles have animal souls, as opposed to the devine, uncreated light contained in Jewish souls?[/QUOTE] --- ### Sertorius *2004-09-02 13:03* | [User Profile](/od/user/26) Hadassah, > To solve these exceedingly complicated problems, you're going to need a solution more sophisticated than "kill all the Jews". I take mild umbrage to this for I don’t regard that as a solution nor did I write anything that any reasonable person could conclude that I did. Having written that I will agree that you make a lot of valid points above, most of which has been dealt with by the others here, so I won’t repeat the same arguments that they have already made. I will also note that there are a lot of Gentiles who are just as guilty. I don’t know about Sweden, I do know about America and what I regard as critical observations made over the years. > Make no mistake, if America becomes a Balkanized hodgepodge it will be no better for Jews than for White gentiles. Exactly and this is the crux of the matter. Why do Jews act in such a self-destructive manner? My observations have brought me to the conclusion that, to simplify here, that the vast majority of Jews come in two forms: [list] [*] Religious fanatics, such as the “settlers”, [*] Socialists and Marxists types. [/list] Both of these groups can be found here in abundance. I will note that the Secularist make up the vast majority. The religious fanatics worship Israel and expect the rest of us to do so as well. If one doesn’t do so and expresses a viewpoint that maybe it isn’t in the best interest of America to adopt a pro-Israeli position on everything one can expect to be called an “anti-Semite”. As a result of all this activity the U.S. finds itself involved in a part of the world it has no business and with more enemies than we had previously. Let it be noted that it wasn’t just Jewish zealots who did this themselves. No, they couldn’t have pulled it off without the “Christian”Zionists and their crazy beliefs in dispensationalism. The secularists, on the other hand, while interested in the welfare of Israel confine their activities to destroying the cultural foundations of America. While I know that some of this is deliberate at the same time I think that some of it comes from a deep seated hatred for the West. If it is not complaining about a crèche at Christmas time it is something hidden in the background, like wanting more third world immigration. You are correct. If the U.S. were to become a third world country it would be bad for all of us, so why did organizations like the A.D.L. and the A.J.C. and politicians like Jacob Javits take the lead in promoting this? I know the answer and it is to divide and conquer by putting one group against another and then poising as the peacemakers to ”bring everyone together”, whether we want to or not. Thanks to them and some guilt ridden Gentiles and corrupt politicians we now have a sizable Muslim community here. Talk about being hoisted by one’s own petard! If it wasn’t for this I wouldn’t care whether someone was Jewish or not. It is the inability to assimilate that I don’t like. My ancestors left Ireland just before the American Revolution and while I think highly of the country, I don’t have any loyalty to it the way most Jews do towards Israel. --- ### Ponce *2004-09-02 14:05* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) Have you seen those bugs that pretend to be the leaf of a tree, of a poisen frog? of a snake?,,,,,,,, well, how do you think the Jews have being able to survive for all this centuries?,,,,,, most of them pretend to be Goys and in order to do that they even change their names. DNA test wont work, except for the real Jews, for the simple reason that the Zionist are now a bastard race, they have been mixing themselves with every other culture for the past 200 to 300 years so that now they are pretty well camuflage. No my friends, they can not all be killed,,,,,,,,all we can do is to keep them under control, like we do with rats. --- ### Kevin_O'Keeffe *2004-09-22 09:36* | [User Profile](/od/user/929) [QUOTE=Hadassah]Under a Nazi regime, I would have nothing to look forward to but death, to end the pain of torture and dispossession. But I do not want death. I want life for me and mine. Truth be told, the primary reason I oppose Nazism is not its "paganism". My main motivation is far more visceral: **Nazis want to kill me and mine.** Just for the record, and irrespective of the policies pursued by the Nazi government in Germany from 1933-1945, deportation of the Jews is considered adequate by essentially all American Nazis of today. The only people in the contemporary Western world who want to round up millions of people and shoot them are the Jews and their allies. --- ### Walter Yannis *2004-09-22 13:05* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]Just for the record, and irrespective of the policies pursued by the Nazi government in Germany from 1933-1945, deportation of the Jews is considered adequate by essentially all American Nazis of today. The only people in the contemporary Western world who want to round up millions of people and shoot them are the Jews and their allies.[/QUOTE] Just for the record, Kevin, how would you know what "essentially all American Nazis of today" think? --- ### Ponce *2004-09-22 13:33* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) An American "Nazi" is any American who disagree with the Zionists or the state of Israel,,,,,,,,,,,,, Remember that is not anti-Semitic to disagree with the Zionists or the state of Israel for the Zionists are not really Jews. --- ### Kevin_O'Keeffe *2004-09-23 06:51* | [User Profile](/od/user/929) [QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Just for the record, Kevin, how would you know what "essentially all American Nazis of today" think?[/QUOTE] By extrapolating that the various ones I have met, spoken to and corresponded with over the last decade, as well as knowing them through reading their various publications, constitute some sort of cross-section. Its a little difficult to objectively prove, but under the circumstances, the fact that I have encountered essentialy **NO/NONE/ZERO/ZIP[/B] in the way of American National Socialists who have any real hostility to Christians (although some do pretty actively dislike Christianity, I admit), other than perhaps the occassional teenaged troll who posts a couple messages somewhere and is never seen again (and who invariably gives off the air of a mentally disturbed drug addict who's just going through a "Nazi" phase as a way of processing his hostility to society). But if you have evidence to the contrary, evidence which suggests that American National Socialists loathe Christians and wish to do violence to them, by all means, post away.... --- ### Walter Yannis *2004-09-23 14:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE][B]real hostility [/B] to Christians (although some do pretty [B]actively dislike [/B] Christianity, I admit), [/QUOTE] So, we're looking here at the chasm separating "real hostility" from "active dislike." I'm greatly reassured. Not. Walter --- ### Ponce *2004-09-25 17:20* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) The Khazards Zionists of Palestine destroyed 256 Palestinian homes in one day. In Dubai 7,000 villas were sold in ONE DAY. In Haiti almost 2,000 die in one day with more dying every day. The US spend billions upon billions to help the Zionist kill Palestinian and for the Zionists to make an "invicible" war on the world. And then you wonder why there are so many so called "terrorists", if there really are any,,,,,,, all I see are discontent people yelling their fustration of the difference, and abuse, of the haves against the no have. In the American Prison system it is to the advantage of the jailers for there to be trouble in the jails betwen races and groups for they know that as long as they fight among themselves they will not fight the system,,,,,, the same thing is going on on a larger scale in the world. Do you really believe that we are going to "domesticate" the Iraqi people and as far as that goes the Arab world? Good or bad it is their world and they have been around, and living in palaces, for a hell of a lot longer than the so called "civilize world" have being here living in caves. Even I with a 10th grade education can see what is going on so why can't those with a lot more education see what is going on?,,,,,, for the forest they can't see the trees. The same as in Viet Nam and now in Iraq the will of the people will survive but in a world wide scale. "The power that anyone has over you is only the power that you allowed them to have over you",,,,,,,,, always remember that. --- ### Ponce *2004-09-25 22:31* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) Sharon destroy Palestinian homes next to the settlements because he says that the Pals. are shooting into the settlements so next he moves the settlements further out towards the Palestinians homes and a week later it happens again and once again Sharon destroy more Pals homes and then moves the settlement once again towards the Palestinian homes, and guess what ,,,,,,,,,,, again again again again and again and little by little the ten houses settlement becomes a village and then a city and the Pals have nothing. Can anyone really blame the Palestinian people for what they are doing in order to defend their land? ,,,,,,,, not me, keep on trucking. --- ### Ponce *2004-09-25 23:39* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) The US, UN, Russia and many other countries have told Sharon to stop stealing Palestinian land ,,,,,,,, Sharon answer is "up yours, I have nukes",,,,, and you know what? he is right. The Zionists are brave not because of their soul but because of their weapons....... I would have like to see them act this "brave" against the Germans in WWII. Unless the world unites as one against this common enemy we may as well kiss out buts bye bye, you will all find yourselves wearing a bennie cap and banging your head against a "holy" wall. Me? ill die with my gun in my had,,,,,unite or perish. --- ### Kevin_O'Keeffe *2004-09-28 03:19* | [User Profile](/od/user/929) [QUOTE=Walter Yannis]So, we're looking here at the chasm separating "real hostility" from "active dislike." I'm greatly reassured. Not.[/QUOTE] Oh, don't be such a delicate flower; it isn't necessary that everyone in society, even potential allies against our mutual enemies, have to friggin' [B]LIKE[/B] you! I actively dislike the tendency of many men to be avid sports fans who spend all their weekends watching ballgames on television, but I surely don't want to send them off to be shot. Its apparent you're looking for conflict in the hope of finding some. Whatever floats your personal boat is fine, but your attitiude on this question ensures that our mutual enemies will remain victorious, in the unlikely event it becomes the dominant one within the patriotic opposition. Fortunately, I doubt many Christian patriots, for example, will choose ideological purity at the cost of personal, national and racial suicide. --- ### Okiereddust *2004-09-28 03:30* | [User Profile](/od/user/29) [QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]Oh, don't be such a delicate flower; it isn't necessary that everyone in society, even potential allies against our mutual enemies, have to friggin' [B]LIKE[/B] you!..........Whatever floats your personal boat is fine, but your attitiude on this question ensures that our mutual enemies will remain victorious, in the unlikely event it becomes the dominant one within the patriotic opposition. Fortunately, I doubt many Christian patriots, for example, will choose ideological purity at the cost of personal, national and racial suicide.[/QUOTE]Sure - not everyone is going to like you, but in a successful political movement you have to be willing to try a little bit. We've seen that here. But you're right - you don't want to ask too much - politics is the art of the poosible as was said, and we're never going to like everything and everyone 100%. --- ### Ponce *2004-09-28 04:04* | [User Profile](/od/user/901) Now that the Zionists are killing people outside of Palestine the Arabs can kill Jews around the world the same way, now the real fun will start, about time. I only hope that the Arabs really mean it when they say that they are going to start killing them. The Khazard Zionists have once again open the doors to their own hell as they did in Germany but now is going to be world wide. ---