← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Texas Dissident
Thread ID: 14817 | Posts: 15 | Started: 2004-08-25
2004-08-25 18:09 | User Profile
[url=http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/LeftBehind.pdf]A Lutheran Response to the 'Left Behind' Series[/url] 2004
An excellent resource - PDF document.
2004-08-26 11:08 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident][url=http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/LeftBehind.pdf]A Lutheran Response to the 'Left Behind' Series[/url] 2004
An excellent resource - PDF document.[/QUOTE]Intersting - even if it is in that processor intolerant PDF format.
2004-08-26 16:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Intersting - even if it is in that processor intolerant PDF format.[/QUOTE] The catholics claim that their "holy water" will burn or melt a jew...I don't see why water used by Lutherans wouldn't do the same thing...there is probably a Martin Luther quote on it too.
John Wesley, or the early Methodists probably had something to say about it ...Wesley did study other worldly things like poltergeists...hmmm if they are the spawn of satan...
2004-08-26 16:50 | User Profile
What does this nonsense have to do with this thread/topic, PD?
2004-08-26 17:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]What does this nonsense have to do with this thread/topic, PD?[/QUOTE] A few minutes with me, and my most raptured friends come back to reality...:whstl:
2004-08-26 18:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]A few minutes with me, and my most raptured friends come back to reality...:whstl:[/QUOTE]
OK...so you say Catholics state their holy water will melt or burn a jew. I'd like to see that documented somewhere.
And why just a 'jew' as opposed to an 'unregenerated jew'?
With regards to Wesley and the poltergeist, are you stating that the poltergeists are spawns of satan (with which I would agree), or that jews are the spawns of satan (with which I would emphatically disagree)?
2004-08-26 18:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]OK...so you say Catholics state their holy water will melt or burn a jew. I'd like to see that documented somewhere.
And why just a 'jew' as opposed to an 'unregenerated jew'?
With regards to Wesley and the poltergeist, are you stating that the poltergeists are spawns of satan (with which I would agree), or that jews are the spawns of satan (with which I would emphatically disagree)?[/QUOTE] Yep. That's a German Catholic legend; if it works I don't know, I've never tried it. But, there are people who claim it works---serious educated German Catholics. You might want to check with one of the German orders of Catholic clergy, you might get a shock if you approach them the right way. Since as a Lutheran from Texas I would guess you are of German ancestry, so you might get the straight story.
I'm Pennsylvania Deutsch, but, on my mother's side of the family there are both German Catholics and Lutherans.
Matter of fact, my mother's maternal grandfather wrote the leading Roman Catholic treatise on the Apocalypse or as we call it Revelations. From what I can gather the old boy had been educated in the German University tutorial system, was literate in 7 languages, I know of 5 (German, English, Latin, Greek and Italian), he also may have been for a couple years a minor officer/notable in the "German" army in the 1860's. He came to the US in the late 1860's still a young man.
During and after World War One in no doubt a deep funk; he decided to write on the Apocalypse. He wrote in German, Latin and Greek, submitted the work to the Vatican, and was recognized for it.
The book as far as I know has never been translated or published in English. I have seen the German edition, and it is a beautiful old book with wonderful brown tone engraving, and it is also printed in "old type" German. That makes it totally unreadable for me. What the illustrations mean would in itself be worth knowing.
Btw,The "spawn of satan" are Christ's words in Matthew; John also is not afraid to quote Christ on the jews.
These rapture folks, never even bring their delusions up with me...
I also do agree with the Rev. Jerry Fallwell in that the anti-Christ will probably be a jew...
2004-08-26 19:52 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]The catholics claim that their "holy water" will burn or melt a jew...[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you can believe everything you hear about vampires.
2004-08-26 19:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident][url=http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/LeftBehind.pdf]A Lutheran Response to the 'Left Behind' Series[/url] 2004
An excellent resource - PDF document.[/QUOTE]
Very good. Now, how about a cartoon tract for those Left Behinders who aren't going to read anything that takes more than a few moments?
2004-10-22 20:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident][url=http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/LeftBehind.pdf]A Lutheran Response to the 'Left Behind' Series[/url] 2004
An excellent resource - PDF document.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this. I just printed it out. I've read some good critiques from the Catholic perspective, but nothing yet from Lutherans.
2004-11-04 15:23 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident][url=http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/LeftBehind.pdf]A Lutheran Response to the 'Left Behind' Series[/url] 2004
An excellent resource - PDF document.[/QUOTE]
Just read it - great stuff.
2004-11-08 15:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Just read it - great stuff.[/QUOTE]
Yes it is and I'm glad you enjoyed it. I just reread it this weekend myself as I needed some material to refute a pre-mil dispy family member on the 'rapture' and tribulation period.
Blessings to you, Brother Walter.
2004-11-09 14:58 | User Profile
Just read the Lutheran document you posted, Tex, and I enjoyed it. I think I will send it to my friend who is about to enter the seminary (Presbyterian). It occurs to me that the modern PreMill Dispies and the New Testament Jews have a lot in common. The Pharisees were so caught up in the political significance of the coming of the Messiah that they were blind to the fact that they were in His very presence. The PreMill Dispies are so caught up in the political/military significance of Christ's Second Coming, that they are totally blind to the fact that He is here right now in the body of the Church. There really are no new heresies under the sun.
2004-11-15 07:13 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Yes it is and I'm glad you enjoyed it. I just reread it this weekend myself as I needed some material to refute a pre-mil dispy family member on the 'rapture' and tribulation period.
Blessings to you, Brother Walter.[/QUOTE]
And to you, my brother in Christ.
As I believe I mentioned previously, we Catholics tend to view Revelation as "revealing" the spiritual facts underlying the liturgy.
I understand that the word revelation in Greek means literally the "unveiling", which refers back to the tearing of the veil of the inner sanctum of the Temple at the moment of Christ's death. This in turn is all about the fundamental change in the worship of God that Christ foretold and instituted at the Last Supper. Instead of only one man - the High Priest - having the right to stand in the presence of God in the Inner Sanctum - all of us have the right to stand in His presence and worship Him in "spirit and truth" as His sons and daughters. This is the Supper of the Lamb.
Christ's sacrifice and His institution of the Sacrament of His Body marked a fundamental change in the relationship between God and mankind, which is expressed in a fundamentally more intimate worship.
In short, God gave us the Holy Liturgy in which He reveals Himself to us.
The Revelation of John the Devine shows to us the spiritual reality that is played out now, in the eternal present, at every Mass. It is there that, with Revelation, we chant "Holy, Holy, Holy" at the Supper of the Lamb. It is there that Michael the Archangel casts Satan down into hell, and where the pinnacles of evil of the last age - the houses of Nero and Herod - are seen to be the many-horned beasts that they were and are. It is there that Mary - the Virgin Mother of the Lamb - is crowned Queen of the Universe, with the stars as Her crown and the Earth as Her footstool.
All of these things are REAL. In fact, they're more real than our mundane, fallen world. And the Liturgy is the window God hacked into our world that we may behold His Reality underlying it all.
I feel that my Evangelical brothers and sisters miss the mind-boggling significance of Revelation, because they lost the Real Presence. They therefore search around for some other meaning of Revelation, one for which it, in my most humble opinion, simply was not composed. They therefore indulge visions of Soviet helicopters as the ironclad locust of an advancing army upon Jerusalem or other such silliness. Worst of all, in their misguided fervor they try to mold US foreign policy to fit their flights of religious imagination.
They've slipped the moorings of spiritual reality.
I would add that I'm mindful of the blood curdling curse at the beginning of Revelation as to anybody who would dectract from or add to that book, and so I say this with all humility and with the ready willingness to accept my own error if upon me proved. I offer for further deliberations that if this view of Revelation as the spiritual facts underlying the new worship of God in the Lamb's Supper is correct, then it would seem that the curse is substantively a dire warning against tampering with the Holy Liturgy - something we Catholics have done in spades since Vatican II. The Orthodox are "orthodox" precisely because they've kept their liturgy pure.
Something to think about.
Walter
2004-11-27 11:49 | User Profile
Note: This is from a Catholic page, but obviously the same applies to the Orthodox.
[URL=http://www.scripturecatholic.com/revelation_and_the_mass.html]REVELATION AND THE HOLY MASS[/URL]
Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven's identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church's identification on earth.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as "alter Christuses" (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests ("presbyteroi") in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus' eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8 - heaven's liturgical chant "Holy, Holy, Holy" is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God's word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven's description of Jesus as the "Lamb" is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven's emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven's concluding liturgical prayer "Amen" is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church's tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.
Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross ("tau") in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God's family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.
Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 11:12 - the phrase "come up here" is similar to the priest's charge to "lift up your hearts" at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven's emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:7 - heaven's emphasis on the Archangel Michael's intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ's sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the "Gloria" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven's marriage supper is the same as the Lamb's supper in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the "Alleluia" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.