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Thread ID: 14793 | Posts: 31 | Started: 2004-08-23
2004-08-23 08:10 | User Profile
ââ¬ÅOne Thing Is Certain: Kerry Was There On That Boat In Viet Nam. Where Was George W. Bush?ââ¬Â
[QUOTE]ââ¬ÅOne Thing Is Certain: Kerry Was There On That Boat In Viet Nam. Where Was George W. Bush?ââ¬Â
By Paul Craig Roberts
Now it is out: "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" is just a political dirty trick operation financed by multimillionaire supporters of President George W. Bush. According to the August 20 New York Times,
"a series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bushââ¬â¢s chief political aide, Karl Rove. Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family." [Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad By Kate Zernike And Jim Rutenberg, August 20, 2004]
The last thing dirty tricksters are interested in is truth.
This group of frauds claims that Kerryââ¬â¢s heroics were nothing but a PR operation and his wounds exaggerated or self-inflicted.
Think about that for a moment. The scurrilous attack on Kerry is an attack on all decorated veterans. If the US Navy handed out fraudulent Silver and Bronze Stars and Purple Hearts to Kerry, how do we know if anyoneââ¬â¢s medals are good?
And how exactly does a person go about self-inflicting shrapnel wounds?
The way I figure it, the Republican dirty trick meisters believe if President Bush can lie about war, they can lie about Kerry.
Just where do the Republicans think they are taking us? If they succeed in destroying the concept of truth and the shame of being a liar, how will our society differ from the great tyrannies of the 20th century?
Former Swift Boat commander Larry Thurlow claims that no boat was under fire when Kerry turned back to rescue Green Beret Jim Rassmann, who was blown into the water. Yet the Washington Post reports that Thurlowââ¬â¢s own Bronze Star citation says that all five boats were under "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire." Jim Rassmann backs Kerryââ¬â¢s account and says he expected to be killed by Viet Cong fire.
When confronted with the words on his own citation, Thurlow claims never to have read his citation and that it is wrong. Does anyone really believe that a person awarded a Bronze Star wouldnââ¬â¢t read the citation accompanying the medal?
Did you know that Kerryââ¬â¢s critics were not even present at the action for which Kerry was awarded the Silver Star? Writing in the Chicago Tribune on August 21, 2004, William B. Rood excoriates Kerryââ¬â¢s critics for "stories I know to be untrue."
Listen to Rood:
"On Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats--including Kerryââ¬â¢s PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Drozââ¬â¢s PCF-43--that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.
"The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.
"Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.
"The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.
"We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boatsââ¬â¢ twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats."
Kerryââ¬â¢s innovative tactic was used twice that day with such success that it got the attention of Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, who, Rood reports, "flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us."[ Anti-Kerry vets not there that day , also here ]
SBVT operative John E. Oââ¬â¢Neill wasnââ¬â¢t on the scene, but that didnââ¬â¢t stop him from coauthoring a diatribe against Kerry titled "Unfit for Command," a collection of lies on which the TV political ad is based.
Hereââ¬â¢s what the Green Beret who Kerry pulled out of the river has to say about SBVT:
"This smear campaign has been launched by people without decency. Their charges are false; their stories are fabricated, made up by people who did not serve with Kerry in Vietnam."
The New York Timesââ¬â¢ conclusion:
"on close examination, the accounts of ââ¬ËSwift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements."
One thing is certain: Kerry was there on that boat in Viet Nam. Where was George W. Bush?
COPYRIGHT CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.
Paul Craig Roberts is the author with Lawrence M. Stratton of The Tyranny of Good Intentions : How Prosecutors and Bureaucrats Are Trampling the Constitution in the Name of Justice
[url]http://www.vdare.com/roberts/swift_boat.htm[/url] [/QUOTE]
2004-08-24 14:09 | User Profile
More.
[QUOTE] Phony Debate, Phony Election
by John M. Regan, Jr.
Lost in the current brouhaha over the Kerry-Swift Boat vets conflict are some larger questions about military service in general, and Kerryââ¬â¢s military service in particular. But somehow this is not surprising. Phony elections are bound to get caught up in phony debates; there is so little real disagreement between the incumbent warfare/welfare party and the wannabe party of the same ilk that theyââ¬â¢re more likely to argue over 35-year-old events as anything even remotely connected to what might be termed an election "issue."
The larger truth about Kerryââ¬â¢s military service is as apparent as it is deeply disturbing: it was voluntarily undertaken as a self-consciously political calculation, a nearly psychotic hunt for military honors and decorations as future political currency.
Kerry wasnââ¬â¢t likely to get any combat citations serving in the engineering department aboard the guided missile cruiser USS GRIDLEY (CG-21), which didnââ¬â¢t even have a main gun battery for shore bombardment and where the Navy initially assigned him, so he volunteered for swift boat duty, where he was sure to see some action.1 What can one say about a man who eagerly seeks the opportunity to engage in the use of lethal force against others, and to have others use lethal force against him? Is there a certain bravery there? Maybe. Mostly it is just insanity, though.
The doling out of medals and decorations is not usually a pure process. Hereââ¬â¢s an example: one of the recent flaps involved the "revelation" that Kerry had authored the text for his own citations. But anyone who has been in the Navy knows that writing yourself up for a medal is standard procedure: the recipient almost always writes his own ticket, so to speak, unless the award is posthumous. Now, there are practical reasons for this ââ¬â after all, the recipient is the one with the best, and often the only, first hand knowledge of the events, and the superiors who have to approve the medal werenââ¬â¢t there, of course ââ¬â but it does lend a certain perspective to the phrase "decorated combat veteran." How meaningful are military "honors" which are largely self-generated?
In my own Navy experience, which included some time "on the gunline" off Beirut in 1983, one of the ships noticed a stray mortar round from shore, probably intended for the Marines camped out at the airport, drop harmlessly into the water. I heard they put in for, but were denied, a combat action ribbon, which requires having been taken under hostile fire. Most of us found that quite amusing.
Kerryââ¬â¢s "Silver Star" apparently emanates from an incident in which he, probably in concert with others, chased down a nearly naked Vietcong teenager and shot him dead, as even the Kerry-sympathetic Boston Globe canââ¬â¢t seem to conceal or refute. Such are the vagaries of many "combat decorations," though: was it an act of heroism, or a war crime? I guess it ââ¬Â¦ depends. Maybe the guards at the Abu Ghraib prison could have been "decorated" were it not for the nasty pictures.
Now, Iââ¬â¢m no fan of the Shrub, but if in the course of this phony debate it becomes unavoidable to do some sort of "Vietnam era service" comparison, I think this much can be said: nothing the Shrub did or didnââ¬â¢t do calls his sanity into question, and I donââ¬â¢t think he can be cited for being insufficiently brave, either: flying combat aircraft is fairly dangerous work, no matter where it takes place.
Nevertheless, the fact that Bush did not volunteer for combat duty in a strange and only vaguely human effort to secure his political future, like Kerry did, merely demonstrates that he is normal by comparison. Or at least closer to normal, a quality which can be found in modern presidential politics only in quite limited degrees, letââ¬â¢s face it.
So far, the Bush operation is taking the position that Kerry dishonestly embellished his exploits. There is a more rational argument for Shrub and his handlers to make: Kerryââ¬â¢s "war record" indicates that he is dangerous, unstable, and more than a little weird. But donââ¬â¢t expect that argument to be made. The "war hero" credential is and must remain unassailable, the pinnacle of qualifications to "lead" the warfare/welfare apparatus.
So thatââ¬â¢s what weââ¬â¢re left with: a smaller phony debate in which the real issue about Kerryââ¬â¢s war service is untouched, within the larger phony debate that makes it a campaign "issue" to begin with. Otherwise, this laughable excuse for a political contest reminds me of nothing so much as G.K. Chestertonââ¬â¢s trenchant observation (paraphrasing): two alternatives so much alike that the politically powerful would not mind choosing from them blindfolded ââ¬â and for a great jest the unwashed masses are allowed to vote.
Note
August 24, 2004
John M. Regan, Jr. [send him mail] author is an attorney and former naval officer living near Rochester, New York, and is currently seeking publication of his first novel.
Copyright é 2004 LewRockwell.com
[url]http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/regan-j1.html[/url] [/QUOTE]
2004-08-24 16:00 | User Profile
The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are sincere white guys, and I donââ¬â¢t think our people should join with the jewish media in calling their intentions wrong and evilââ¬Â¦what is this, but crucifying Vietnam vets all over again, like Kerry and the jewish media did many years ago? And why are we doing it? Because they had the gumption to make a stand against Kosher Kerry, as they knew he would be bad for this country. These guys are all true, white, American heroes. I am proud of these guys, and they are exactly the kind of men that deserve our support against the jewish media onslaught ââ¬Â¦ We should not be taking up the enemyââ¬â¢s cross, in order to crucify these men again! Kerry did it onceââ¬Â¦do we need to do it again?! I donââ¬â¢t think soââ¬Â¦We should STAND WITH OUR OWN!
Again, you say you would like to see Bushââ¬â¢s war recordsââ¬Â¦I say to you, again: he never claimed to be any kind of a heroââ¬Â¦he never publicly lied about and slandered his comrades in the National Guards. He wasnââ¬â¢t in the war, but that doesnââ¬â¢t mean he was dishonest about it!
Stand up for our people... not the enemy of our people. Bush wasn't the only American man who didn't go to war... does that make them cowards?
2004-08-24 16:20 | User Profile
I wonder who this Perry cat is who dumped $200,000 dollars on the "swift boat for truth" lobby...what's he got to gain...that's serious money for a single issue suicide attack...
2004-08-24 19:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]I wonder who this Perry cat is who dumped $200,000 dollars on the "swift boat for truth" lobby...what's he got to gain...that's serious money for a single issue suicide attack...[/QUOTE]
Maybe to some people truth matters more than money...
2004-08-25 11:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Pennsylvania_Dutch]I wonder who this Perry cat is who dumped $200,000 dollars on the "swift boat for truth" lobby...what's he got to gain...that's serious money for a single issue suicide attack...[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/kiley_boston2.jpg[/img]
ââ¬ÅThe future U.S. senator also testified before Congress about alleged atrocities that American soldiers had committed in Vietnam. Those memories still linger for some veterans.
"Because of people like Kerry and Fonda, Vietnam vets had to hide under a rock for 15 years," said Reg Cornelia, 60, East Hampton, N.Y. "He came back and he lied about the atrocities, and worse still, he brought guys to testify before Congress who he knew had never served in Vietnam."
Kerry turned on U.S. soldiers as a matter of "political expediency,"** Cornelia said. He wondered why the news media hadn't pushed Kerry on that subject.
"Mark my words," Burke added. "See how much national news coverage this protest gets. These guys are all veterans, they know his record, and they're all against him. Yet the mainstream media will probably ignore this rally so it becomes a non-event."**
Some veterans said they've tracked Kerry's career. Vietnam veteran James Booth, 58, of South China, Maine, said coming out to oppose the Democrat on the eve of his prime-time speech was the right thing to do.
"We know he's a phony," Booth said. "You don't get two Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star in 21 days. You don't do it, no way. I was at Walter Reed [Army Medical Center] for 18 months. I got one Purple Heart. I lost an eye, part of my jaw and got hit in the arm. This guy's got three scratches and he's making a big deal out of it. It doesn't seem right."
Read on... [url]http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/kiley_boston1.htm[/url]
2004-08-25 18:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE]The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are sincere white guys, and I donââ¬â¢t think our people should join with the jewish media in calling their intentions wrong and evilââ¬Â¦what is this, but crucifying Vietnam vets all over again, like Kerry and the jewish media did many years ago? And why are we doing it? Because they had the gumption to make a stand against Kosher Kerry, as they knew he would be bad for this country. These guys are all true, white, American heroes. I am proud of these guys, and they are exactly the kind of men that deserve our support against the jewish media onslaught ââ¬Â¦ We should not be taking up the enemyââ¬â¢s cross, in order to crucify these men again! Kerry did it onceââ¬Â¦do we need to do it again?! I donââ¬â¢t think soââ¬Â¦We should STAND WITH OUR OWN![/QUOTE]Gabrielle may want to stand with her own, but if danger comes, she should be aware that Cheney and Bush will not be there. They will have fled. Be advised to take self-defense land shooting lessons. Gingrich, Hastert and friends will not help you. [QUOTE]Again, you say you would like to see Bushââ¬â¢s war recordsââ¬Â¦I say to you, again: he never claimed to be any kind of a heroââ¬Â¦he never publicly lied about and slandered his comrades in the National Guards. He wasnââ¬â¢t in the war, but that doesnââ¬â¢t mean he was dishonest about it!
Stand up for our people... not the enemy of our people. Bush wasn't the only American man who didn't go to war... does that make them cowards?[/QUOTE]Bush used his father's influence not to go to war, and he has lied about it. Yes both he and Cheney are [COLOR=Yellow]cowards[/COLOR].
Gabrielee - Is Karl Rove your boyfriend?
2004-08-25 20:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=edward gibbon]Gabrielle may want to stand with her own, but if danger comes, she should be aware that Cheney and Bush will not be there. They will have fled. Be advised to take self-defense land shooting lessons. Gingrich, Hastert and friends will not help you. Bush used his father's influence not to go to war, and he has lied about it. Yes both he and Cheney are [COLOR=Yellow]cowards[/COLOR].
Gabrielee - Is Karl Rove your boyfriend?[/QUOTE]
Ed, do you think jews, blacks, or Orientals would say bad things about 250 plus heroic vets of their own race? Do you think jews or blacks would say bad things about a jewish or black president and vice president? Do you? Ed, why do the other races stick together while our race cuts the throats of one another? Are we really the ââ¬Ëdumb goyââ¬â¢ or ââ¬Ëdumb honkiesââ¬â¢ that they think of us as?? Why would we believe the kosher controlled media when they attack over 250 white vets and try to hide their messages under a pack of lies? Why do we believe that same Kosher press when they falsely accuse a white president? Why arenââ¬â¢t we screaming foul play? Iââ¬â¢ll take the word of over 250 white vets over a kosher liar any day? Would you, Ed?
As far as his fatherââ¬â¢s influence goes, donââ¬â¢t be a hypocrite: thousands of people use their family influence dailyââ¬Â¦ letââ¬â¢s pull the log out of our eyes before we preach and try to pull the twig out of his.
You say Bush and Cheney are cowardsââ¬Â¦why? Because Bush didnââ¬â¢t go to war? Maybe he didnââ¬â¢t believe in the warââ¬Â¦not going didnââ¬â¢t make him a coward. In fact, the flying he did took lots of nerve ââ¬â thatââ¬â¢s not something a coward does! Yes, he did not fight in Vietnamââ¬Â¦then again, he didnââ¬â¢t turn on the vets who did, either!
Also, for your future use, my name is Gabrielle ââ¬â not Gabrieleeââ¬Â¦
And, no, Karl Rove is not my boyfiendââ¬Â¦ :rolleyes: Is Hillary Clinton your girlfriend? :D ;)
2004-08-25 21:50 | User Profile
It's fair game to criticize Bush's war record, but there are enough men on both sides who went or didn't go that it pays no particular advantage. Bush will have to face the music for his choices or inactions and Kerry should do the same for his embellishments.
Kerry was there and I give him credit. In fact he volunteered. That doesn't entitle him to exaggerate the atrocities, or lie about where he was and when. I think he opted to emphasize his military service to avoid talking about his voting record between 1980 and 2004, and that strategy has backfired. If he is a hero, he is an opporunistic hero.
I think Bush served at a time when many men wanted to do the honorable thing despite the country having lost faith in the government. He stayed out, and he should be called a hypocrite if it can be substantiated. But I don't recall either him or his father heavily promoting the war then or afterwards. It was a Democrat President and Congress at the time, after all.
I also give Bush slight credit for training as a pilot, which increased the chance of being called up. As it turned out, the fighter he flew was older and was more or less phased out during his era, or put to less demanding uses.
2004-08-25 23:32 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Ed, do you think jews, blacks, or Orientals would say bad things about 250 plus heroic vets of their own race?...[/QUOTE]Not all of those vets even approached doing anything heroic. [QUOTE]Why would we believe the kosher controlled media when they attack over 250 white vets and try to hide their messages under a pack of lies? Why do we believe that same Kosher press when they falsely accuse a white president? Why arenââ¬â¢t we screaming foul play? Iââ¬â¢ll take the word of over 250 white vets over a kosher liar any day? Would you, Ed?[/QUOTE]I would like to see what most those guys did or rather did not do. I suspect Kerry hyped his first purple heart, but I think I may have done the same thing. I suspect his confusion about Cambodia was done for his purposes to bolster his image over 30 years ago. [I][COLOR=Red]BTW - the United States should have gone into Cambodia the same time the North Vietnamese did. In 1965 would be an accurate guess.[/I][/COLOR][QUOTE]As far as his fatherââ¬â¢s influence goes, donââ¬â¢t be a hypocrite: thousands of people use their family influence dailyââ¬Â¦ letââ¬â¢s pull the log out of our eyes before we preach and try to pull the twig out of his.[/QUOTE]I am not talking about people making money or getting into college. I am referring to war and death. If our affluent leadership ([B][I]I refuse to call them an elite[/I][/B]) had honor and duty as requisites, Jorge Bush and his father would have had their testicles pulled and placed in their throat.[QUOTE]You say Bush and Cheney are cowardsââ¬Â¦why? Because Bush didnââ¬â¢t go to war? Maybe he didnââ¬â¢t believe in the warââ¬Â¦not going didnââ¬â¢t make him a coward. In fact, the flying he did took lots of nerve ââ¬â thatââ¬â¢s not something a coward does! Yes, he did not fight in Vietnamââ¬Â¦then again, he didnââ¬â¢t turn on the vets who did, either![/QUOTE]Jorge believes in nothing other than himself and what he can stick in his pocket. He believes in war for other people. Flying a plane not shot at is not difficult. If possible, I would strap both Cheney and Jorge onto the front of an APC and use them to clear minefields. That we can have two obvious liars and [COLOR=Yellow]cowards[/COLOR] as leaders reveals much of the American character.[QUOTE]Is Hillary Clinton your girlfriend?[/QUOTE]I gave up on Hillary. She drooled and left teeth marks.
2004-08-25 23:42 | User Profile
[B]Buster[/B] [QUOTE]It's fair game to criticize Bush's war record, but there are enough men on both sides who went or didn't go that it pays no particular advantage. Bush will have to face the music for his choices or inactions and Kerry should do the same for his embellishments. [/QUOTE]Honestly, I believe service in Vietnam does not help a candidate. Despite loud publicly professed beliefs, most Americans believe those who expose themselves to dangers are fools or mentally deranged. [QUOTE]Kerry was there and I give him credit. In fact he volunteered. That doesn't entitle him to exaggerate the atrocities, or lie about where he was and when. I think he opted to emphasize his military service to avoid talking about his voting record between 1980 and 2004, and that strategy has backfired. If he is a hero, he is an opporunistic hero.[/QUOTE]The greatest atrocities were commited by our enemies, the North Vietnamese. The current American media would have you believe differently. The massacre at Hue was on an order of 10 times those killed at My Lai.[QUOTE]I think Bush served at a time when many men wanted to do the honorable thing despite the country having lost faith in the government. He stayed out, and he should be called a hypocrite if it can be substantiated. But I don't recall either him or his father heavily promoting the war then or afterwards. It was a Democrat President and Congress at the time, after all.[/QUOTE]Jorge and the rest were not concerned with doing the honorable thing. They did not want to confront danger.
[QUOTE][B][COLOR=Red]I also give Bush slight credit for training as a pilot, which increased the chance of being called up.[/B][/COLOR] As it turned out, the fighter he flew was older and was more or less phased out during his era, or put to less demanding uses.[/QUOTE]Over 58,000 died in Vietnam. If I remember correctly less than 100 of the dead were considered National Guard. His admission to the Guard guaranteed his avoidance of serving in a war zone. He is the quintessential American conservative - a flag waving poltroon who demands others display the balls he lacks.
2004-08-26 00:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE=edward gibbon] Over 58,000 died in Vietnam. If I remember correctly less than 100 of the dead were considered National Guard. His admission to the Guard guaranteed his avoidance of serving in a war zone. He is the quintessential American conservative - a flag waving poltroon who demands others display the balls he lacks.[/QUOTE]
So everyone who served in the National Guard had no b*lls?
So, if you didn't go to Vietnam,you are a coward? :nerd:
2004-08-26 01:37 | User Profile
Why are you defending Bush on Vietnam, Gabrielle ? It just doesn't make sense. Bush didn't even complete his service, he was AWOL for over a year. He is the equivalent of a draft dodger. One thing is for certain, Kerry could have gotten out of serving his country if he wanted to, but he chose to volunteer. As far as Cambodia goes, I bet you he WAS there. The fact that it doesn't appear on his service reports is the same reason why Cambodia doesn't appear on anyone's.. it was an operation denied by the Government at the time. When we have to decide who will be Commander in Chief, and who will think most judiciously about putting our young people's lives on the line, especially during these troubled times, we need someone like John Kerry who at least has a sense of perspective !! As far as the Swift Boat gang, Ive heard some of them on the radio. Not exactly mental giants. I hope the 10,000 $ they each recieved is worth it. Vietnam was a bad war, and Patriots speak against bad wars.
2004-08-26 17:55 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Gabrielee]So everyone who served in the National Guard had no b*lls?
So, if you didn't go to Vietnam,you are a [COLOR=Yellow]coward[/COLOR]? :nerd:[/QUOTE]The National Guard was a haven for draft-dodgers during the Vietnam War. To pretend otherwise is absolute nonsense.
Being a coward or dishonorable depended greatly on how one conducted himself. Gingrich, Lott, Saxby, Ashcroft, Quayle, Clinton, Jorge, Cheney, Hastert, Limbaugh, many other loudmouths and the neoconservative Jews all have displayed no sense of honor or integrity. I have omitted some, but others may wish to add names.
2004-08-26 17:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Exelsis_Deo]Why are you defending Bush on Vietnam, Gabrielle ? It just doesn't make sense. Bush didn't even complete his service, he was AWOL for over a year. He is the equivalent of a draft dodger.
One thing is for certain, Kerry could have gotten out of serving his country if he wanted to, but he chose to volunteer. As far as Cambodia goes, I bet you he WAS there. The fact that it doesn't appear on his service reports is the same reason why Cambodia doesn't appear on anyone's.. it was an operation denied by the Government at the time.
When we have to decide who will be Commander in Chief, and who will think most judiciously about putting our young people's lives on the line, especially during these troubled times, we need someone like John Kerry who at least has a sense of perspective !!
As far as the Swift Boat gang, Ive heard some of them on the radio. Not exactly mental giants. I hope the 10,000 $ they each recieved is worth it. [COLOR=Red][B]Vietnam was a bad war, and Patriots speak against bad wars[/B][/COLOR].[/QUOTE]A poll taken in 1948 (reference unavailable presently) showed that 32% of World War II veterans believed serving in the war helped them. Some 48% believed it to be a burden and hindrance.
2004-08-26 21:25 | User Profile
[QUOTE=edward gibbon][B]Buster[/B] Jorge and the rest were not concerned with doing the honorable thing. They did not want to confront danger.
Over 58,000 died in Vietnam. If I remember correctly less than 100 of the dead were considered National Guard. His admission to the Guard guaranteed his avoidance of serving in a war zone. He is the quintessential American conservative - a flag waving poltroon who demands others display the balls he lacks.[/QUOTE]
EG:
I don't think they wanted to die for the stupid policies of corrupt politicos (Johnson) or bumbling whiz kids (McNamara). Just calling them cowards is unfair in my view.
As to flying, my evidence is anecdotal and I don't know how many Guard pilots served or died. But I was told by a military man (Republican) that flying fighters did increase your chances of being called up. If anyone out there has the numbers or can correct me, I'd welcome the information.
2004-08-26 22:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=edward gibbon]The National Guard was a haven for draft-dodgers during the Vietnam War. To pretend otherwise is absolute nonsense.
Being a coward or dishonorable depended greatly on how one conducted himself. Gingrich, Lott, Saxby, Ashcroft, Quayle, Clinton, Jorge, Cheney, Hastert, Limbaugh, many other loudmouths and the neoconservative Jews all have displayed no sense of honor or integrity. I have omitted some, but others may wish to add names.[/QUOTE]
What about you, Ed...have you fought in any wars? There is one going on right now if the spirit moves you. :thumbsup:
2004-08-26 23:23 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Gabrielle]What about you, Ed...have you fought in any wars? There is one going on right now if the spirit moves you. :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]Yes - I was in Vietnam. I knew more than 20 young men who died.
I did not and still do not support this war. I will start to think about going after I see the Bush twins following Cheney's lesbian daughter to basic training. Perhaps you will be there.
2004-08-26 23:36 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster]EG: I don't think they wanted to die for the stupid policies of corrupt politicos (Johnson) or bumbling whiz kids (McNamara). Just calling them cowards is unfair in my view.
[COLOR=Red][I]As to flying, my evidence is anecdotal and I don't know how many Guard pilots served or died. But I was told by a military man (Republican) that flying fighters did increase your chances of being called up. If anyone out there has the numbers or can correct me, I'd welcome the information.[/I][/COLOR][/QUOTE]Being fair is not in my nature. Revealing harsh facts and making people confront lies that make their life comfortable is. I know of nobody who wanted to die. Yet I knew more than a few who did get a high from combat. These were the very few who served 3 to 5 years over there.
2004-08-27 02:48 | User Profile
[QUOTE=edward gibbon]Yes - I was in Vietnam. I knew more than 20 young men who died.
I did not and still do not support this war. I will start to think about going after I see the Bush twins following Cheney's lesbian daughter to basic training. Perhaps you will be there.[/QUOTE]
Women shouldn't be in the military. You wouldn't see me there, and hopefully not Bush's twins or Cheney's daughter, or any other girls...
A question regarding Vietnam...do you support Kerry stating that you, those 20+ men you knew who died, and all the other vets, were rapists, murderers and war criminals? Do you support his betrayal of the nation and especially the men who served? Do you support his 'about face' on the Vietnam war - where now it is the highlight of his life, whereas before it was the most horrible thing?
Remember back in Clinton's time? Kerry said Vietnam shouldn't be an issue...funny, then, when he runs that he makes Bush not being in the war and him having been there for a full four months major issues...odd, wouldn't you say? Sorry, make that typical zionist lies...
2004-08-27 17:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Gabrielle][COLOR=Red][I]A question regarding Vietnam...do you support Kerry stating that you, those 20+ men you knew who died, and all the other vets, were rapists, murderers and war criminals? Do you support his betrayal of the nation and especially the men who served? Do you support his 'about face' on the Vietnam war - where now it is the highlight of his life, whereas before it was the most horrible thing[/I]?[/COLOR]
Remember back in Clinton's time? Kerry said Vietnam shouldn't be an issue...funny, then, when he runs that he makes Bush not being in the war and him having been there for a full four months major issues...odd, wouldn't you say? Sorry, make that typical zionist lies...[/QUOTE]Of course I do not support that statement as I feel Kerry was trying to make political points at that time. For any occurence resembling an atrocity by an American I saw something like 20 by the VC. I also suspect I may have exaggerated an injury to receive the [B][I]first[/I] [/B] purple heart, if for nothing else to prove I was there.
What amazes me is that Kerry is now forced to defend what he did, or not, do some 35 years ago while that snivelling sh*t Jorge and his gutless compadre, the loathsome Cheney, do not.
Read today's New York [B][I]Times[/I][/B] editorial page there are three columns about Kerry. Most telling is a piece by the wife of the swift boat commander who died. He respected Kerry.
Your continued defense of this gutless sh*tbird offends me greatly. He did not listen to Shinseki or other generals who knew the great problems would arise after combat.
2004-08-27 19:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE=edward gibbon]Of course I do not support that statement as I feel Kerry was trying to make political points at that time. For any occurence resembling an atrocity by an American I saw something like 20 by the VC.
Quite frankly, I couldnââ¬â¢t possibly care less for what reason he was doing it ââ¬â the point is that he DID do it! He came home and slandered and ruined the lives of many vets; he cast shame on the honorable names of servicemen, of the dead and the dying as well as the living; he cast shame on the POWââ¬â¢s who suffered greatly for their service to this nation. He cast shame on the nation itself. It makes me sick when people defend a sniveling backstabbing Kosher communist like himââ¬Â¦
[quote=edward gibbon]I also suspect I may have exaggerated an injury to receive the [B][I]first[/I] [/B] purple heart, if for nothing else to prove I was there.
You suspect you may have [I]exaggerated[/I]? Come, now ââ¬â thereââ¬â¢s no such thing as ââ¬Ëexaggeratingââ¬â¢ the truth: either it is true or it is not, for truth cannot be compromisedââ¬Â¦
[quote=edward gibbon]What amazes me is that Kerry is now forced to defend what he did, or not, do some 35 years ago while that snivelling sh*t Jorge and his gutless compadre, the loathsome Cheney, do not.
Kerry is forced to defend what he did because he brought it up! People arenââ¬â¢t going through Kerryââ¬â¢s history looking for as much dirt as they can dig up ââ¬â Kerry wouldnââ¬â¢t shut up about his supposed heroism and service! It is only right that people should respond when he and his campaign and supporters paint him as some sort of hero!
As far as George Bush being ââ¬Ësniveling sh*tââ¬â¢, that is nonsenseââ¬Â¦Iââ¬â¢ve already posted an article by another pilot, stating that a coward would never choose the job Bush did. Bush was required by his country to serve time in the armed forces; he fulfilled that requirement. There is nothing cowardly in that ââ¬â what is cowardly is slandering someone who did duty by his countryââ¬â¢s requirements!
[quote=edward gibbon]Read today's New York [B][I]Times[/I][/B] editorial page there are three columns about Kerry. Most telling is a piece by the wife of the swift boat commander who died. He respected Kerry.
Almost everything coming from jew york times is anti-Bush and pro-Kerryââ¬Â¦they are one of the most corrupting, leftist papers aroundââ¬Â¦ Quite frankly, by the way, that swift boat commanderââ¬â¢s wife can say anything she wantsââ¬Â¦that doesnââ¬â¢t prove that her husband really did respect Kerry, or that he did not. Kerryââ¬â¢s crew is getting desperate, and so theyââ¬â¢re grabbing at strawsââ¬Â¦
[quote=edward gibbon]Your continued defense of this gutless sh*tbird offends me greatly. He did not listen to Shinseki or other generals who knew the great problems would arise after combat.[/QUOTE] Your continued use of insults toward the President of the United States offends me greatly; furthermore, your continued support (or defense, if you prefer) of that pathetic turncoat, phony hero, Kosher Kerry offends me greatly.
2004-08-27 21:10 | User Profile
Buster,
I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment, but it was my understanding that Bush was able, through his connections, to secure a spot in an Air Guard unit renowned for being practically undeployable.
I don't know if its true, but from my experience in the Army National Guard in the 1990's it's not hard for me to believe. The longtime members of my unit practically beamed with pride, being able to boast that the unit hadn't been deployed since WWII.
2004-08-28 00:23 | User Profile
edward gibbon,
Thanks for your posts on this thread. I was going ask you about what you thought about this mess.
I remember the Neocons were calling Iraqis who charged American Tranks in Pickup Truck holding RPGs cowards. So what the Neocons idea of what a coward is rather meaningless.
2004-08-28 01:43 | User Profile
Looks to me that Gabrielle would feel more confortable under the table at the White House rather than defending the American Flag.
Oh well, to each their own,,,,,,,,,
2004-08-28 05:00 | User Profile
I reply in Pride for what used to be America. As a True Patriot,, it is myy duty to determine our livee llihood Flee Once myy preants diee i will be a 6O you have no idea how baad no rreasson to live... \ Identify and Kill
2004-08-28 09:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ponce]Looks to me that Gabrielle would feel more confortable under the table at the White House rather than defending the American Flag.
Oh well, to each their own,,,,,,,,,[/QUOTE]
Why is that where your wife spent her time with Clintion... or was that you?
2004-08-28 10:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ponce]Looks to me that Gabrielle would feel more confortable under the table at the White House rather than defending the American Flag.
Oh well, to each their own,,,,,,,,,[/QUOTE]
Just like a Jew, if you canââ¬â¢t win the argument with facts you talk like a gutter mouth scumbag and falsely accuse people of what you do.
But donââ¬â¢ worry, with people like you Kosher Kerryââ¬â¢s chances get better everyday, and you still may be able to help defend the flag under Kerryââ¬â¢s table.
2004-08-28 16:55 | User Profile
Please call me a SOB or a mother f*ker or a fag or anything that you can think of but PLEASE don't call me a Jew,,,,,,, I would not call even my worse enemy that name ufffffffffffffffff you are soooooo mean.
By the way, glad you got my drift by what I wrote hehehehehehe.
2004-08-29 14:22 | User Profile
""It's late August, and someone in America decided it's time to scrutinize John Kerry's life story on television. For a week in Boston, John F. Kerry wrapped himself around a war effort he had spent decades denouncing, and Dan, Peter and Tom sat around and nodded. No one even considered the possibility that Kerry could be -- should be -- challenged on any point of his self-serving history.
Then Swift Boat Veterans for Truth came along and shattered that mythology. Without its TV ads, the pro-Kerry media would have spent the entire election year with their collective fingers in their ears avoiding any criticism about the life story of the man who would be president.
While reporters breathlessly pass on the Kerry protests that he's the victim of an unproven "smear," from January to August, and on a smaller scale stretching back to the Vietnam War itself, our "prestige press" has been spreading around John Kerry's unsubstantiated war-hero stories without any troublesome fact-checking, or even a simple request to Kerry for confirmation. John Kerry has refused to release his records, refused to debate his fellow veterans and refused to ask his personal biographer, Doug Brinkley, to release his vaunted wartime journals, and yet nobody in the liberal "news" media cares. "
"The sad thing is that young Kerry was completely celebrated at that time by the "objective" news media, including a laudatory profile on "60 Minutes" asking if he would be president some day. Did no one care about the veracity of these scattershot smears, or did the press just despise the war so much that any lie that hastened its end was a good lie? Is that good lie the only thing that matters to our media today?"
**What's even more sad is that white people don't care about truth! ** :sad:
[url]http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/columnists/guests/s_245188.html[/url]
2004-09-02 03:13 | User Profile
Im just not going to tolerate it and neither should You. Four more years of this is not going to help USA.. its gonna kill us.