← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Buster
Thread ID: 14633 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2004-08-06
2004-08-06 19:19 | User Profile
The Immigrant Threat?
Conservatives (or ââ¬Åpaleoconservativesââ¬Â) with whom I usually agree, such as Pat Buchanan and Sam Francis, have been raising alarms about the danger to this country posed by immigration. I must say I donââ¬â¢t understand.
Europe may have a serious problem, with its plunging birthrate and rapidly reproducing Muslim immigrants who may transform the continent. Italy and Spain, traditionally the most Catholic countries in Europe, are expected to have Muslim majorities, hostile to Christianity and more or less sympathetic to radical Islam, in the fairly near future. I can see where this may lead to difficulties.
But the American situation is different. Most of our immigrants are Mexican (or Latin American), and most Mexicans are Catholic. It is argued that they resist assimilation to American culture. Maybe so, but they are hardly likely to be loyal to the Mexican government in any way that could be subversive of American law. True, they may overload the welfare state, but whose fault is that? If the welfare state is here to welcome them, the solution is to get rid of it, as should have been done long ago. Overpopulation is a problem for socialist systems, not for free societies. In fact, the welfare system may be more destructive of the immigrantsââ¬â¢ families than to the natives.
What are the cultural differences that are believed to be menacing to America? Americans and Mexicans tend to live apart, peacefully preferring their own races, but they donââ¬â¢t seem radically incompatible. Why is total assimilation so desirable? Why shouldnââ¬â¢t the immigrants retain a distinct sense of identity? Would it be better if they gave up their own healthy traditions and adapted to American culture, especially considering the sorry condition that culture has come to?
Itââ¬â¢s not as if America still had its edifying old Protestant ethic and stern Puritan morality. Every morning, as I read my papers at McDonaldââ¬â¢s, I find myself surrounded by teenagers with body-piercing and exposed navels, gabbing on cell phones and listening to hip-hop. Is that what the Mexicans should aspire to for their children?
Maybe Iââ¬â¢m missing something here. But I just donââ¬â¢t feel the least bit threatened by immigrants.
2004-08-06 19:42 | User Profile
Sobran must have picked up a crack habbit.
Sure, there are people who would be far worse than Mexicans. But, if I wanted to live in Mexico, I'd move there. I'm partial to commincating in English. I'm partial to Protestantism. And, I'm against pushing down wages and pushing up welfare costs.
2004-08-06 20:45 | User Profile
France: approx 60.1 million people, with approx 8% Muslim. Italy: approx 58 million people with approx 6% Muslim Spain: approx 40.21 million people, with approx 8% Muslims Germany: approx 82.39 million with 1.7 million Muslims or 2.2% of the population.
The United States: approx 290 million people, 12% Black, 12% Hispanic, 4% Asian.
For Sobran to imply that somehow things are A-Ok with the nice Mexicans flooding an ALREADY multicultural country (Whites & Blacks) is simply bizarre and quite foolish.
He implies that Europe is doomed but at least they have some political parties that explicitly represent the interests of Whites whereas the United States, unfortunately, is the real doomed country. We have nothing to fight back the already dismal conditions that exist here.
Sobran is due an aberration here and there, but this one is quite zany.
2004-08-06 22:14 | User Profile
The problem is not about "immigrants" coming into the USA but the "type" of immigrants that are coming over,,,,,,, I for one don't call them immigrants but illegals and criminals.
2004-08-07 05:13 | User Profile
Buster,
I fear Sobran's mind is poisoned at times by the marxist learning of his Church.
As for the Mexicans or "wetbacks" they has a 50% out of wed lock birthrate and a 400% higher rate of VD than European Americans. Mexico has a much higher abotion rate than the USA and "Mexican-Americans" have one of the highist abotion rates in the USA.
xmetalhead,
You are most Right.
2004-08-07 05:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster]The Immigrant Threat?
Conservatives (or ââ¬Åpaleoconservativesââ¬Â) with whom I usually agree, such as Pat Buchanan and Sam Francis, have been raising alarms about the danger to this country posed by immigration. I must say I donââ¬â¢t understand. [/QUOTE]Well for starters note that Sobran does not describe himself as a paleoconservative. What's that latest label he put on himself - anarchist?
That's basically what he is, a semito-skeptic libertarian. Really I've found anyone that for some reason or other rejects the "conservative" label, whether at Liberty Forum, Phora, or anywhere else, usually turn out to be completely unreliable ideologically.
Even when Sobran was writing those Israelicritical articles at National Review I sort of felt that way about him. He may have been saying the right thing, but it seemed for his own quirky reasons.
And of course for a man who fell on the sword to fight neocondom his immigration arguments are right out of their book. But sadly its to be expected.
2004-08-07 22:53 | User Profile
Typical response from a Papist, and the dangers of a Foreign Prince--which is something our WASP ancestors who carved a Civilization out of the Wilderness in this Land were rightly concerned with...
:gunsmilie
2004-08-08 15:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE=confederate_commando]Typical response from a Papist, and the dangers of a Foreign Prince--which is something our WASP ancestors who carved a Civilization out of the Wilderness in this Land were rightly concerned with...
:gunsmilie[/QUOTE]
Speaking myself as a "papist," I will leave you to your Protestant superstitions and mythology. I only wish such comments could be expunged before they degrade the discussion.
2004-08-08 16:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=confederate_commando]Typical response from a Papist, and the dangers of a Foreign Prince--which is something our WASP ancestors who carved a Civilization out of the Wilderness in this Land were rightly concerned with... [/QUOTE]
The Catholic Church, along with many Protestant Churches have been a negative influence on immigration policy. But, there are Catholics, including some in this forum, who don't support the transformation of the [once] greatest country on Earth into a 3rd-world hispanic country.
Maybe Sobran should move to southern California to put his life where his mouth is. Where does he live? (BTW, southern California will get much worse as the WASP influence continues to deminish.)
2004-08-08 18:05 | User Profile
The Catholic support for immigration comes from bishops, not the general Catholic population. That is because the native churchgoers (white mainly) have left the Church in droves during the last 40 years. Immigrants are needed the fill the pews and pay the bills. It has nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine. We are paying the price for the incompetence and corruption of the episcopate.
"The walls of Hell are lined with the skulls of bishops."--St. John of the Cross
2004-08-09 23:23 | User Profile
I read that column today I was a little startled, but I think most of you are reading it too literally. Sobran seems to be taking a big swipe at American culture and the welfare state, implying that they are the cause of undesirable immigration.
Most paleos would probably agree with half of what Sobran said. Yes, the degraded American culture and the welfare state are the cause of undesirable immigration, but a large presence of foreign nationals also causes cultural degradation and the perpetuity and expansion of the welfare state. They have a symbiotic relationship.
Sobran did slip on this one, but I think he was trying to make more of a point about culture and government than he was about his position on immigration.
2004-08-09 23:47 | User Profile
[QUOTE=random]I read that column today I was a little startled, but I think most of you are reading it too literally. Sobran seems to be taking a big swipe at American culture and the welfare state, implying that they are the cause of undesirable immigration.[/QUOTE]
That is correct. Illegal immigrants wouldn't come to America if not for the handouts that they are knowingly given. A country doesn't need any boarder security if it would simply deny illegals any public services and deport illegals whenever discovered. But, as you know, illegals in the right states can openly get almost every government benefit and it is standard practice of police across the country to make no effort to deport an illegal if discovered.
2004-08-10 20:28 | User Profile
"Maybe Iââ¬â¢m missing something here. But I just donââ¬â¢t feel the least bit threatened by immigrants."
Yes, you're missing something. For a clue, come 'round the Bronx some time. Sobran is great on the yids, but too obsessed with libertarianism. This column was baffling to me. Immigration is threatening because the immigrants are. They're dusky, shrunken pot-squatters with vacant stares coming from beady black eyes.
2004-08-10 21:43 | User Profile
[QUOTE=random]I read that column today I was a little startled, but I think most of you are reading it too literally. Sobran seems to be taking a big swipe at American culture and the welfare state, implying that they are the cause of undesirable immigration.
Most paleos would probably agree with half of what Sobran said. Yes, the degraded American culture and the welfare state are the cause of undesirable immigration, but a large presence of foreign nationals also causes cultural degradation and the perpetuity and expansion of the welfare state. They have a symbiotic relationship.
Sobran did slip on this one, but I think he was trying to make more of a point about culture and government than he was about his position on immigration.[/QUOTE]Well the article was titled "The Immigrant Threat"
Incidentally, thisarticle wasn't linked. Where do you'll read Sobran these days? Is it from the Wanderer, or is he seen somewhere else these days? I don't see him anywhere - not even in Chronicles, as we've discussed.
If it's in the Wanderer, maybe that sort of explains it.
2004-08-10 22:57 | User Profile
[url="http://www.sobran.com/wanderer/w2004/w040715.shtml"]http://www.sobran.com/wanderer/w2004/w040715.shtml[/url]
It's at the bottom.
2004-08-10 23:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=random][url="http://www.sobran.com/wanderer/w2004/w040715.shtml"]http://www.sobran.com/wanderer/w2004/w040715.shtml[/url]
It's at the bottom.[/QUOTE] Yup - that explains it. Pretty obviously Sobran is trying to brown-nose the Catholic clergy, with his "good Cathlic hispanics are just replacing decadent WASP hip-hops" etc, tone of the article.
2004-08-11 21:38 | User Profile
Okiereddust,
Yes a sorry article. The Roman is under marxist control everyone knows it. [QUOTE]Yup - that explains it. Pretty obviously Sobran is trying to brown-nose the Catholic clergy, with his "good Cathlic hispanics are just replacing decadent WASP hip-hops" etc, tone of the article. [/QUOTE]
It makes it hard to disagree with confederate_commando. [QUOTE]Typical response from a Papist, and the dangers of a Foreign Prince--which is something our WASP ancestors who carved a Civilization out of the Wilderness in this Land were rightly concerned with... [/QUOTE]
2004-08-23 17:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=random]I read that column today I was a little startled, but I think most of you are reading it too literally. Sobran seems to be taking a big swipe at American culture and the welfare state, implying that they are the cause of undesirable immigration. [/QUOTE] Sobran responds today and it looks like this was precisely what he was doing:
[url="http://www.sobran.com/wanderer/w2004/w040729.shtml"]http://www.sobran.com/wanderer/w2004/w040729.shtml[/url]