← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · kminta
Thread ID: 14285 | Posts: 13 | Started: 2004-06-22
2004-06-22 02:10 | User Profile
[I]At this point, I think it's safe to say that most of us here support and advocate -- as the only viable alternative to the otherwise-inevitable World War that is looming already "on this side of the horizon" -- the disestablishment of the rogue State of Israel. I've previously asserted and supported many good reasons for taking this stance, including the unchangeable Human Nature.[/I]
[I]I've also previously posted articles from even Jewish sources, showing that very many of the Jews who had been lured to Israel by the Zionist Administration [B]have left or are leaving[/B] Israel.[/I]
[I]In keeping with this stance, here is yet another article that proves my point, that it is a "red herring issue" to wonder and worry about where the displaced Israeli Jews might go in the (unlikely) event that the world -- especially the United States -- were to decide to undo, correct and remedy the proven-bad decision to "legally" grant to the Jews any part of the territory and properties that have been owned by the Palestinians for two millennia.[/I]
[B][URL=http://www.cbc.ca/stories/print/2004/06/20/world/russianjews040620]"Changing Fortunes Lead to Russian Jews FLEEING Israel"[/URL][/B]
Last Updated [B]Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:14:25[/B]
[B]MOSCOW - Thousands of the Soviet Jews who fled to Israel when the Soviet Union collapsed are beginning to return to Russia.[/B]
Slowly but surely, the synagogues of Moscow are filling up again. In the late 1980s and early 1990s close to one million Soviet Jews emigrated to Israel. The Soviet Union was collapsing, Russia was in economic and social chaos and anti-Semitism was rampant.
"When they left they were cursing this country saying, 'My feet will never set foot on this soil again,' such hatred and unhappiness. But we must admit things have changed," said Berl Lazar, Russia's chief rabbi.
The Russian economy that was on the verge of collapse is now booming, while the Israeli economy is sinking under the weight of the intefadeh.
Israelis live in a state of siege. And in spite of bloody exceptions, such as the recent Moscow subway bombing, Russians feel their security problems are confined to faraway Chechnya. Moreover, says Rabbi Lazar, anti-Semitism in Russia is declining.
"We know anti-Semitic attacks are less than in the past. People can get a job in the government, people can feel secure within government, they won't hear anti-Semitic insults. This is a big change."
Dr. Igor Dvrdon is one of the Russian Jews who returned. He's been back in Moscow for two years. Because doctors in Russia earn just $300 per month Dvrdon is working at his second profession, journalism, writing for a Jewish internet news service.
Dvrdon fled Russia in 1989 right after graduating from medical school. He was full of hope at the time. For years he dreamed of moving to Israel and living in a democracy, free of the humiliating anti-Semitism that was so much a part of Russia. As a committed Jew, he wanted to help secure the Jewish homeland. But Dvrdon says soon after arriving in Israel, he woke up.
"For a new immigrant it is especially hard to advance in this system (Israel), this system is built on connections."
Dvrdon says he quickly discovered that Israeli-born Jews had all the good jobs and all that all the promotions went other Israeli Jews and their relatives. He says Israeli-born doctors at his hospital used their connections to evade compulsory military service. He on the other hand ended up serving four-month stints on the army front lines every year. "I was in Lebanon, I was two times in the occupied territory in Hebron, Bethlehem, I said 'Enough!'"
No matter how hard he tried to learn Hebrew and fit in Dvrdon says Israeli Jews always considered him a Russian rather than a Jew. And he says, he missed Russia terribly.
Rabbi Lazar estimates that between 50,000 and 100,000 of the one million that left have returned in the past three years, creating what he calls, a renaissance in the Russian Jewish community. They are coming back with a lot of knowledge of what a Jewish community should be like, so where they go they do help the locals learn more about their Jewishness."
But Rabbi Lazar many of the returnees are also conflicted; torn between going home to Russia and feeling guilty for abandoning Israel.
Israel still encourages Russian Jews to emigrate. The Jewish state needs immigration. The birthrate amongst Arabs living in Israel is much higher than the Jewish birthrate. Without immigration Arabs could outnumber Jews in Israel in a few decades.
But given Russia's new stability and prosperity Russian Jews are now staying home and increasingly, a growing number of those who left, are returning.
Written by CBC News Online staff
Copyright é 2004 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - All Rights Reserved
2004-06-22 02:34 | User Profile
Kminta, nice find. Ironic too, heh? Poor jews just don't have it that good when not leeching of goyim in goyim homelands. They sucked Russia dry for 70 years, killed millions, and then split. They foment and exploit hatred among different races and classes. No wonder nobody wants them. I can't see them getting too uppity in the 'new' Russia. The USA would probably be the place most of them end up....the REAL promised land for the hebraic. I agree with you though, World War is definitely coming. It's inevitable at this point.
2004-06-22 02:47 | User Profile
Let me just add that the reasons given by the staying/returning Russian Jews are no more honest and genuine than are/were the reasons given by the Israeli government and the Jews it had lured to Israel for immigrating to Israel. These are sophistic and duplicitous rationalizations in place of the actual reasons which include dread fear and shattered hopes.
Nonetheless, articles such as the one I've posted serve to dispel and dismiss the arguments that go along the lines of; "The poor Israeli Jews would have no place to go if forced to abandon the stolen land back to the Palestinians".
2004-06-22 13:17 | User Profile
I particularly don't care where they go to as long as is not the US or Cuba, we used to have 30,000 of those people in Cuba before the revolution but Castro took care of the problem, now there are about 8,000 left, to many.
2004-06-22 17:47 | User Profile
I am not sure what most posters advocate here. However, this is certainly not what I would advocate. What needs to occur is that the US eliminate its aid and military commitments to Israel. What happens to them next is then their own business, and not something that would likely spiral into a global conflict.
Israel could easily survive on its own if it turned to a free market. There are no guarantees, as they might always simply get nuked by Muslims who don't care about retaliation, but this is true even if they are receiving US aid.
But perhaps I am misunderstanding here--is the claim that 'disestablishment' of Israel is a more likely occurence than cuts in US aid to Israel?
[QUOTE=kminta][I]At this point, I think it's safe to say that most of us here support and advocate -- as the only viable alternative to the otherwise-inevitable World War that is looming already "on this side of the horizon" -- the disestablishment of the rogue State of Israel. [/QUOTE]
2004-06-22 19:36 | User Profile
The US could keep pumping billions into Israel and that still wont save it. Israel is doomed because its demographics are doomed. The Palestinians have the highest birthrate in the world - higher than any sub-saharan African country, higher than any country in Asia or Latin America. Israeli Jews are barely at replacement level.
Israeli Arabs themselves will be a majority in less than two generations from now. Israel is finished. It was never a viable state to begin with. Jews say that the majority of them are "non-religious" and secular. If this true , why did they create that state in the middle of one of the most hostile places on earth? Israel couldve been created in a thousand different places around the world where large tracts of land were available and largely uninhabited. But no, they had to stick their noses into what used to be Judea. Because their "G-d" promised them the land in the Old Testament.
The Jews are every bit as fanatical as the Muslims if not more so and they will pay a price for it eventually. No amount of American muscle and money is going to save them. When the day of reckoning comes, their nukes will be useless. Could Jews run to America? If America keeps filling up with Arab muslims, itll be interesting.
2004-06-23 02:18 | User Profile
I agree that US aid wont help the Israeli's; my main point was that giving it out hurts us (and not the mere existence of the state of Israel).
As to your predictions: Certainly, demographics don't look good for the Israelis. However, they haven't ruled out expulsion of the non-Jewish population. That would 'take care' of the demographic 'problem.'
Also, I am not totally sure what the numbers are. You don't offer any references (not a complaint, just a statment of fact). For all I know, the Jews can start popin' out the kids like mad and end up keeping their majority status.
[QUOTE=Peter Phillips]The US could keep pumping billions into Israel and that still wont save it. Israel is doomed because its demographics are doomed. The Palestinians have the highest birthrate in the world - higher than any sub-saharan African country, higher than any country in Asia or Latin America. Israeli Jews are barely at replacement level.
Israeli Arabs themselves will be a majority in less than two generations from now. Israel is finished. It was never a viable state to begin with. Jews say that the majority of them are "non-religious" and secular. If this true , why did they create that state in the middle of one of the most hostile places on earth? Israel couldve been created in a thousand different places around the world where large tracts of land were available and largely uninhabited. But no, they had to stick their noses into what used to be Judea. Because their "G-d" promised them the land in the Old Testament.
The Jews are every bit as fanatical as the Muslims if not more so and they will pay a price for it eventually. No amount of American muscle and money is going to save them. When the day of reckoning comes, their nukes will be useless. Could Jews run to America? If America keeps filling up with Arab muslims, itll be interesting.[/QUOTE]
2004-06-23 05:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE]At this point, I think it's safe to say that most of us here support and advocate -- as the only viable alternative to the otherwise-inevitable World War that is looming already "on this side of the horizon" -- the disestablishment of the rogue State of Israel.[/QUOTE]
I don't advocate that.
I think that Israel should withdraw from the territories, kick out all Israeli Arabs, and then all Jews in the world should be encouraged/required to move there.
Walter
2004-06-23 07:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]I don't advocate that.
I think that Israel should withdraw from the territories, kick out all Israeli Arabs, and then all Jews in the world should be encouraged/required to move there.[/QUOTE]
Sounds good to me. With all the Jews in one place, and their no longer receiving U.S. foreign aid (or German, Swiss, Argentine, etc.), it would be up to them to see if they could manage to prevent their justly hostile neighbors from massacring their entire tribe. If so, then bully for them. If not, then bully for everyone else....
2004-06-23 10:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]Sounds good to me. With all the Jews in one place, and their no longer receiving U.S. foreign aid (or German, Swiss, Argentine, etc.), it would be up to them to see if they could manage to prevent their justly hostile neighbors from massacring their entire tribe. If so, then bully for them. If not, then bully for everyone else....[/QUOTE]
Which brings up the nuclear question. Having them all in one place would make it much easier to control the most destabilizing fact of their nucelar arsenal.
2004-06-23 18:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE=darkstar]I agree that US aid wont help the Israeli's; my main point was that giving it out hurts us (and not the mere existence of the state of Israel).
As to your predictions: Certainly, demographics don't look good for the Israelis. However, they haven't ruled out expulsion of the non-Jewish population. That would 'take care' of the demographic 'problem.'
Also, I am not totally sure what the numbers are. You don't offer any references (not a complaint, just a statment of fact). For all I know, the Jews can start popin' out the kids like mad and end up keeping their majority status.[/QUOTE] Read "The Death of the West". Buchanan has a section on Israel's demographic problem.
2004-06-23 19:45 | User Profile
I'd rather spend my time otherwise, since I have already read that rather flawed work, some years ago. You'll forgive if I don't remember the exact statistics that Buchanan cites.
[QUOTE=Peter Phillips]Read "The Death of the West". Buchanan has a section on Israel's demographic problem.[/QUOTE]
2004-07-13 22:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=darkstar]I'd rather spend my time otherwise, since I have already read that rather flawed work, some years ago. You'll forgive if I don't remember the exact statistics that Buchanan cites.[/QUOTE]Flawed work? I thought it was marvellous.
The statistics are from UN population figures. Its very good in that sense, very sound. Once you support every argument with precise figures and statistics, all the opposition can do is basically refuse to talk about it rather than smear you as some fringe lunatic.
Although they simply cant afford to ignore Huntington and are attacking the man from all sides.