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Gothic in Germany - Where neo-Nazism and Satanism Meet

Thread ID: 14213 | Posts: 93 | Started: 2004-06-16

Okiereddust [OP]

2004-06-16 07:03 | User Profile

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0%2C11981%2C841363%2C00.html]Guardian[/url]

The prosecutor called it "a picture of cruelty and depravity such as I have never, ever seen". He was describing the scene left behind when Daniel and Manuela Ruda fled from their home in the west German town of Witten in July last year after murdering their friend, Frank Hackert. When police broke in three days later, on July 9, they found a poster of hanged women in the bathroom and a collection of human skulls in the living room. There was a coffin in which 23-year-old Manuela sometimes slept. Blood-stained scalpels were scattered around the house. And then there was Hackert's corpse. He had been stabbed 66 times. A scalpel was lodged in his stomach and a pentagram cut into his skin. Nearby was a list of names. Police believe that they were those of the people the couple intended to kill next. The Rudas' trial in January provided a stream of outlandish and gruesome details. Much of the focus was on Manuela, who shrank from sunlight and had had two of her teeth replaced with animal fangs to look more like a vampire. She said her initiation into the world of Satanism had taken place at a Gothic club in Islington, London, where she claimed to have met real vampires. "We drank the blood of living people," she told police. On January 31, she was sentenced to 13 years in a secure mental facility, while Daniel was sentenced to 15 years.

While public attention tended to dwell on the way in which Manuela had given life to her sinister fantasies, a more chilling aspect of the case went largely unnoticed: the links between the Rudas and the neo-Nazi movement, links that hint at a much broader - and growing - overlap in Germany between the far right and the broad range of occult and esoteric movements that nowadays go by the generic name of "Gothic" or "Dark Wave".

Among the witnesses at the trial was 28-year-old Frank Lewa. He testified that he had first met Daniel Ruda on the local far right/skinhead scene. Daniel's involvement was more than casual. The regional newspaper, the Rheinische Post, discovered that at the 1998 general election campaign in Germany, Daniel had canvassed for the National-Democratic Party of Germany (NPD), a far right party that the government has since tried to outlaw (the matter is currently before the Constitutional Court).

On the witness stand, Lewa said that after the election Daniel drifted out of the skinhead world and into the Gothic scene. He began listening to "black metal" music, a variant of heavy metal, and at one time played in a band called the Bloodsucking Freaks. It was through a black metal fanzine, in fact, that he met Manuela, after placing an ad that read: "Black-haired vampire seeks princess of darkness who despises everything and everybody and has bidden farewell to life."

Daniel, 26, broke contact with Lewa after a row at a party. Lewa told the court that he had received a letter from his erstwhile friend in July, a few days before the Rudas killed Hackert. In it, Daniel called Lewa a Judas and enclosed a photograph of himself, covered in blood and apparently hanging from hooks in the ceiling. He was pointing two gas pistols at the camera.

When the police finally caught up with Daniel and his wife, on July 12 2001, they were in the east German city of Jena, having previously visited two nearby towns, Sonderhausen and Apold.

The significance of these details would be lost on most Germans, and it appears not to have been remarked upon at the trial. Nevertheless, it would have meant a very great deal to anyone who had studied what has become known as "the case of Satan's Children", in which three schoolboys who lived near Jena were convicted in 1994 of the ritual black magic killing of a classmate.

One of the boys, 16-year-old Hendrik MÃÂ¶bus from Sonderhausen, formed a band while in a juvenile detention centre. Among the tracks on a CD they produced was one called Zyklon B, after the gas used in the Auschwitz gas chambers. Not long after MÃÂ¶bus's release on probation in 1998, he began violating the terms of his parole, roaring out "Sieg Heil" from among the audience at a concert, and attempting to justify the murder for which he had been sentenced on political grounds. "I don't know whether, in the Nazi era, one would have been convicted if one had rendered race vermin harmless," he was quoted as saying.

Germany has legislation making both Holocaust denial and the use of symbols from the Third Reich criminal offences. In 1999, faced with the prospect of another spell in jail for contravening these laws (and thereby breaking the terms of his parole), MÃÂ¶bus fled to the US, where he applied unsuccessfully for political asylum. He is now back behind bars in Germany. His brother, who lives in Apold, runs a black metal label, Darker Than Black.

In the days that followed the murder of Frank Hackert, the Rudas embarked on a kind of pilgrimage to places that in their minds linked the far right and the occult - to Jena, Sonderhausen and Apold. It is possible they planned to do more than visit: on the death list police discovered in the Rudas' flat was the name of the mother of the boy whom Hendrik MÃÂ¶bus and his friends had murdered seven years earlier.

Links between Nazism and esoteric and occult movements are nothing new. Hitler, rejecting Christianity, embraced instead the paganism of the early Germanic tribes. Their beliefs, both real and imagined, offered a basis on which any number of sinister concepts could be superimposed. The process reached its apogee at Schloss Wewelsburg, near the town of Paderborn. Though the present-day castle dates from the late 16th century, records suggest that there has been a fortress on the site since the days of the Huns, more than a thousand years earlier. The surrounding landscape is wooded, often misty, and interspersed with giant, weirdly-shaped rocks. The castle and its environs were ideally suited to the purpose for which Heinrich Himmler rented them in 1934 - that of providing the officers of his elite corps, the SS, with an education in the supposed pagan mysteries underpinning National Socialism.

Though it does not make much of an impact at election time, the far right remains a disturbing undercurrent in German life: sufficiently disturbing for the federal government to have launched an all-out drive against the neo-Nazi fringe two years ago (including the attempt to ban the NPD). "The problem with the far right in Germany is not that its members are particularly numerous, but that they are readier than their counterparts elsewhere in Europe to resort to violence," said a senior intelligence officer who asked not to be named. That point was driven home by a string of savage attacks in early 2000, culminating in the beating to death of a Mozambique-born German citizen in Dessau.

The far right is especially pervasive in the formerly communist east where unemployment is high and where, after the war, there was not the same painful reckoning with the past as in the west. Despite - or perhaps because of - the fact that there are fewer immigrants in the former GDR, surveys also show that racist attitudes are more prevalent there than in the cosmopolitan west.

One possible reason why the degree of support for the far right does not show up in election results is that the most extreme rightwingers will have nothing to do with the democratic process and abstain. This is particularly true of those connected with the so-called Kameradschaften which form a network of mutually independent, neo-Nazi secret societies. Each may have no more than 10 or 15 members, but around them is a wider circle of associates and sympathisers. Indeed, the secretive and hierarchical world of the German far right mirrors that of many occult communities.

On several occasions since the fall of the Third Reich, evidence has surfaced of connections between the far right and Satanism. As in the cases of Hendrik MÃÂ¶bus and Daniel Ruda, however, they have been limited to individuals or, at most, small groups. But in the past five years, an entirely new phenomenon has developed: a mass youth culture in which neo-Nazi ideas and symbols have merged with the Gothic scene.

This movement can be traced back to 1993, when Roland Bubik, widely regarded as the leading thinker of the German extreme right, wrote a seminal article for the magazine Junge Freiheit. Entitled "Culture as a question of power", it argued that "new possibilities for influencing people are arising in the area of communications networks. In particular, the entertainment industry... has an immense influence that until now has gone unremarked." Within a couple of years, Bubik's partner, Simone Satzger, was stating as fact, in a collection of essays edited by Bubik, that the far right's strategy was "to open up contemporary cultural and political phenomena to use them for our own purposes".

Since the mid-1990s, Germany's neo-Nazis have attempted to penetrate several youth scenes, including techno, but it is with Goths that they have had their greatest success. The Gothic movement may be on the wane in Britain and many other countries around Europe, but in Germany, where its adherents are known as Gruftis (from the German word for "crypt"), they constitute a vast group. It is particularly strong in the former GDR. East Germans are still reeling from the fall of communism, and the young in particular seem to be searching for new values to fill the gap left by a creed that was as much a religion as an ideology.

"The concentration of Goths in Germany is much higher than in other European countries," says Stephan Tschendal, who edits an online Gothic magazine. He estimates that between 5% and 7% of all young Germans between the ages of 12 and 25 are Goths, an overall population of at least 650,000. Many of them are doing no more than making a fashion statement, or registering a protest against the drabness and conformity of modern adult life. Devil-worshippers exist only on the extremist fringe. But in two specific areas of the Gothic scene - the areas in which the neo-Nazis have had the greatest success in infiltrating their ideas - Germany's intelligence officers believe there is genuine cause for concern. One of these is "neo-folk"; the other is black metal, the dark variant of heavy metal that so appealed to Daniel Ruda.

In a darkened hall in the centre of Leipzig, blue lights play on the smoke billowing out from under a stage where Darkwood, a three-piece neo-folk band, play placid, lilting, slightly weird music. The band's gig forms part of an annual, three-day Gothic festival, which this year attracted some 17,000 people from all over Europe to Leipzig. Churches in the city that had been asked to host concerts refused to do so, citing the risk that Satanists could assemble on consecrated ground.

About half the crowd at the gig are typical Goths, but the rest look as if they have wandered in from a Nuremberg rally. There are men wearing high, heavy boots and black military-style shirts and trousers. There are women, also wearing boots, with calf-length skirts and white shirts with a symbol on the right arm that resembles a badge of rank. Everywhere, there are leather cross-straps, forage caps and 1930s-style shorts.

As its name implies, neo-folk draws on the musical heritage of Bob Dylan, Joan Baez and other protest singers of the 1960s and 1970s. Some German groups dig further back into the past, updating and reworking traditional folk tunes. The acoustic guitar is central to its music, which also features flutes, cellos and violins. Yet neo-folk is anything but folksy. Punk has had an influence on its evolution and much of the music could be described as industrial. Unusually extensive percussion sets are typical of the genre. Another characteristic is that gentle melody-making can all of a sudden give way to something much more visceral: the lead singer of Darkwood seized hold of a pair of heavy drumsticks and beat out an intimidating tattoo on a bass drum. It was like Japanese Kodo drumming, but with the rhythms of a Prussian parade ground. The drumming rose in a crescendo, then ended as abruptly as it had begun, prompting the loudest cheers of the night.

The Leipzig festival was launched in 1991, soon after German reunification, and has helped turn the city into the Gothic capital of Europe. Like neo-Nazis, Goths are drawn to its Volkerschlachtdenkmal, one of the strangest and most intimidating monuments to be found anywhere in Europe. A vast, stepped pyramid towering over a lake on the wooded fringes of the city, it resembles a Mayan temple. The Volkerschlachtdenkmal was inaugurated in 1913 to commemorate the defeat of Napoleon at the battle of Leipzig 100 years earlier. But since German reunification, it has become a favoured rallying point for the far right.

The pivotal figure on Leipzig's neo-folk scene is a 29-year-old DJ who goes by the name of Mortanius. He denies that neo-folk has anything to do with extreme-right politics. "These groups use language and symbols both from the Nazi era and the days of the GDR to provoke people, to get people to think - think about their past," he told me. "People from the far right scene don't feel comfortable in this environment. We never see skinheads at our gigs or in our clubs. On the contrary, we have problems with them. I won't say you don't see people from the extreme right or that they aren't trying to infiltrate. The attempt is certainly there. But it is doomed to fail because people can think for themselves. We have a generally left-leaning audience."

Less than an hour after meeting Mortanius, I found myself in a shabby room with four Goths, three young men and a woman, who had agreed to be interviewed on condition of anonymity. One of the men had a partly shaven head and a pigtail, and was wearing a black shirt, camouflage trousers, military boots and a symbol dangling on his chest that managed to combine a Celtic cross, a human skull, an eagle's wings, two entwined snakes and a pentagram. His girlfriend had a spiked collar around her neck and a dog's lead dangling between her breasts. At one point, we fell to discussing what he called "youth Satanism". "It starts with the moving glass and then they go on to animal sacrifice," he said nonchalantly, and apparently knowledgeably.

When I read out Mortanius's description of the local neo-folk scene and its lack of connection to the far right, all four burst into incredulous laughter.

Solveig Prass, the Leipzig social worker who had set up our meeting, asked me if Mortanius had been wearing any badges when I met him; had I noticed that one of them was the so-called "Black Sun"? A pagan fertility symbol, the Black Sun is known to have been used by the Alemans, a third-century Germanic tribe. Each of its 12 "rays" is the rune meaning "sun". According to Dr Rudiger Sunner, author of a recent book on Nazism and its use of myth, the Black Sun is "definitely a sign of the SS". Himmler fashioned the SS emblem from one of the Black Sun's 12 jagged "rays", and a large Black Sun was set into the floor of the ObergruppenfÃÂ¼hrer's Hall in Schloss Wewelsburg, immediately above the crypt.

Mortanius was in fact wearing three badges, including the pagan Black Sun: he argues that "our symbols... don't really have anything to do with the Third Reich".

How close, really, are the links between Gothic - or, specifically, neo-folk - culture and the German far right? Unquestionably, there is an element of sheer, apolitical mischief: it is not easy for the sons and daughters of the generation of 1968 to find a way of shocking their parents, but dressing up in vaguely neo-Nazi garb should do the trick. "I want to stand out from the crowd of normal Dark Wave folk," Mortanius told me. "I don't want to be an ordinary Goth in the street. I want to provoke people."

The organisation charged with protecting Germany from a Nazi revival is the Verfassungsschutz, a body roughly equivalent to Britain's MI5. Reinhard Boos is its director in Saxony, the state in which Leipzig lies, and so has a special interest in gauging the threat posed by far right penetration of the Gothic scene. When I visit him in his office in a leafy Dresden suburb, he produces a couple of CD covers and lays them on his desk. One is an album by the British band Death In June, which shows four dogs' heads arranged at right angles. Half-close your eyes and they become a swastika. The other CD is by the Austrian band Der Blutharsch. Tip it, and a shiny patch on the inside cover becomes a triangle containing the jagged ray of... what? The SS symbol? Or the sun rune? Is this merely provocation, or evidence of a link between extremist politics and neo-folk music?

"I think the truth is in between," says Boos. "The Gothic scene is not to be confused with rightwing extremism. But there are some groups that use symbols which refer to rightwing extremism and they do it mainly for provocation. Very, very few of them do it to support rightwing groups. On the other hand, the rightwing extremists know that there are people who can be useful to them, so some of them try to win them over for their own aims. It is not a plan by a few [people] that is carried out in a clear, structured way. Those who think it is a good idea do so of their own accord."

"Things are not going well for the far right," argues Wolfgang Hund, an educational scientist and the author of several books on the occult. "They are under pressure from all sides and they are looking for allies... They are looking for foot soldiers in the ranks of disoriented youth - human raw material for any Pied Piper who comes along."

One of the young men I met in Leipzig was about as different from the far right stereotype as could be imagined. His jet-black hair was shaved away on one side of his head and hung lank down the other. He was wearing a black velvet tailcoat, a silver pentagram on a chain around his neck, five rings in one ear, and sunglasses. This apparently typical Goth was in the process of trying to free himself from the neo-Nazi scene.

"My first contact was through a member of the NPD," he said. "It was all very low key at first. We went to some concerts [of neo-Nazi bands] and I liked the music they played. Then I started getting flyers and leaflets. Eventually, I began to help distribute them." He decided to leave after a row over money ended in his being badly beaten.

Such cases notwithstanding, Boos believes that recruitment is not, in fact, the far right's primary aim. The threat posed by the infiltration of the Gothic scene is, he believes, subtler. "We take it seriously because it opens people's heads to extreme rightwing thought."

Solveig Prass and her colleagues in Leipzig, who talk regularly to DJs and others, have been keeping a running estimate of how much of the Goth scene is under the influence of the far right."The link was first noticed in the mid-1990s. At that time, it was estimated that the overlap was about 5%. Two years ago, we put it at 7-8%. Now, our estimate is 9%." Alfred Schobert, a lecturer at the Duisberg Institute of Language and Social Research, took a similar view in his 1998 academic investigation into the infiltration of the Gothic scene by the far right. "It is not about recruiting in the short term. It is about [producing] an overall reversal that picks up on and distorts the prevailing mood."

Through the Gothic scene, the far right can obtain access to the minds of hundreds of thousands of young people throughout Europe. If they can be taught to accept certain beliefs and symbols as normal, then the extreme right will have made significant progress towards achieving what Schobert argues is a key, medium-term goal: "The removal of the taboos that attach to Nazi symbols and racist-nationalist ideology".

ÃÂ· Additional research by Beate Steinhorst

*> The far-right isn't doing good in Germany,

(and here, for that matter).Ever wonder why?*

annalex

2004-06-16 07:33 | User Profile

Will you pardon an exercise in posting?

Askel told me she could not figure out how to post here. I shall prove her wrong.

Where do neo-Conservatism and Satanism meet?

Best regards.

Okiereddust

2004-06-16 15:37 | User Profile

[QUOTE=annalex]Will you pardon an exercise in posting?

Askel told me she could not figure out how to post here. I shall prove her wrong.

Where do neo-Conservatism and Satanism meet?

Best regards.[/QUOTE]

Well you certainly proved her wrong. :lol: Good to see you.

As to where neo-Conservatism and Satanism meet - oops that's a big story. You could start I suppose though with Moses Hess, and follow it through Trotsky and the Frankfurt School, the precursors of a lot of neocons thinking, most prominent perhaps in neocons like Comrade Sandalio , aka Stephen Schwartz (see [url=http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=13902&highlight=trotsky]The Red and the Hack[/url]).

But as to your derivative question, where do WN and neocon meet, maybe not to far away after all. Even our own Paleocon Avatar has written that if he were a jew he'd join the ADL. Who knows?

Texas Dissident

2004-06-16 18:32 | User Profile

Interesting post, Okie.

Makes me wonder how much linkage there is here in the States between national socialists and occultist groups/organizations.

darkstar

2004-06-16 19:10 | User Profile

'Gothic' pop culture has been around since the later 70's, and often serves as a focal point for whites in largely non-white areas. Goth influences are many and varied. So we should keep in mind that attacking it based on a few more twisted incidents is very similar to righting off all pro-white groups on the grounds that skinheads beat people up.

Okiereddust

2004-06-16 19:22 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Interesting post, Okie.

Makes me wonder how much linkage there is here in the States between national socialists and occultist groups/organizations.[/QUOTE]

Try Klebold and Harris.

I've read discussions on this before, regarding the substantive position of these followers of the "Gothic Nazi" scene. But the philosophical and psychological similarities to the Nazi's sympathizers I've run into are striking.

We may note that Harris and Kebold chose the occasion for the high school massacre to be Adolph Hitler's birthday. More than any other person in history, Hitler was the incarnation of the demon of envy, resentment and hatred. He fueled the fires of German resentment towards the Jews, foreigners and other groups he accused of stealing what belonged to the German people for themselves, and of being responsible for Germany's economic, social, and political plight. Is it any surprise, therefore, that Hitler would symbolize to these students the revenge of the resentful?

Why Gothic? Harris and Klebold belonged to a high school clique, "the Trench Coat Mafia," so named because the attire of these students included a long black coat, even on summer days. This style of dressing -- reminiscent of Morticia Addams in the old TV show The Adams Family -- has been called "Goth," meaning Gothic.

Everything about Goth is redolent of death and decay, reflecting the sense that Goth people have about life. Although many are only in their teens, they feel inwardly dead. They have no hopes, no dreams, no real aspirations. They have cast aside American values, and they fear ending up like their parents, whose lives they reject as empty. These young people are usually right about their parents' lives being empty, an immensely important factor, and a factor not properly acknowledged by those who analyze the problems of young people in America today.

It is also important to understand that the shock-rock music and the grotesque and decadent Goth culture popular among the young today, have similar psychological roots to the culture in Germany during the time of the Weimar Republic as well as during the Nazi regime. What is being rejected, in all cases, is middle class materialism and the well-planned, practical, sober-minded and boring bourgeois life. It also rejects liberal Western values like democracy, the rule of law, individualism, religious tolerance, and freedom. Instead, it celebrates violence, chaos, orgiastic sexuality, racial hatred, and obedience to a dictator. Ultimately, it worships thanatos, the death principle, in its expression of hatred for life. The long black coats serve symbolically to protect those who are demonic and ghoulish from the life-inducing rays of the sun.

[url=http://www.thephilosophyclinic.com/Masacres.html]The Hidden Roots of the High School Massacres [/url]

weisbrot

2004-06-16 19:25 | User Profile

"Hendrik Mobus" is the fugitive arrested at the WV home of Dr. William Pierce a couple of years before Pierce died. Correct?

*"One of the boys, 16-year-old Hendrik MÃÂ¶bus from Sonderhausen, formed a band while in a juvenile detention centre. Among the tracks on a CD they produced was one called Zyklon B, after the gas used in the Auschwitz gas chambers. Not long after MÃÂ¶bus's release on probation in 1998, he began violating the terms of his parole, roaring out "Sieg Heil" from among the audience at a concert, and attempting to justify the murder for which he had been sentenced on political grounds. "I don't know whether, in the Nazi era, one would have been convicted if one had rendered race vermin harmless," he was quoted as saying.

darkstar

2004-06-16 19:52 | User Profile

'Everything about Goth is redolent of death and decay, reflecting the sense that Goth people have about life. Although many are only in their teens, they feel inwardly dead. They have no hopes, no dreams, no real aspirations.' Basis in empirical reality: none.

Also, I would just like to say: Goth girls are cute.

Texas Dissident

2004-06-16 20:00 | User Profile

[QUOTE=weisbrot]"Hendrik Mobus" is the fugitive arrested at the WV home of Dr. William Pierce a couple of years before Pierce died. Correct?[/QUOTE]

I don't know weisbrot, but that would be interesting info if it could be confirmed.

I tell you, some of this stuff makes one wonder how much flesh and blood we're struggling against, if you know what I mean.

Ruffin

2004-06-16 20:01 | User Profile

Klebold, Harris and Mobus were teenage boys.

Klebold was a Jew.

George Bush is a grown Christian with much power and support from his fellow Christians.

Texas Dissident

2004-06-16 20:09 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ruffin]Klebold, Harris and Mobus were teenage boys.

Klebold was a Jew.

George Bush is a grown Christian with much power and support from his fellow Christians.[/QUOTE]

So what are you saying, Ruffin?

Do you know something about all this we don't?

Texas Dissident

2004-06-16 21:46 | User Profile

On the American side of things, there may be more to this than what is on the surface:

Following is a thread at LF mentioning Mobus:

[url]http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_history&Number=1486027&t=0[/url]

Other names that seem to come up after some quick googling: Michael Aquino, The Temple of Set, The Order of the Trapezoid

Some creepy stuff, no doubt.

Okiereddust

2004-06-16 22:16 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ruffin]Klebold, Harris and Mobus were teenage boys.

Klebold was a Jew.

That sounds like one of Skunk's legends, one of the ones with little supporting evidence.

George Bush is a grown Christian with much power and support from his fellow Christians.[/QUOTE] As was Hitler. Christians can certainly be misled.

Okiereddust

2004-06-16 22:19 | User Profile

[QUOTE=darkstar]Basis in empirical reality: none.

Sounds like you have some firsthand knowledge here.

Also, I would just like to say: Goth girls are cute.[/QUOTE] Different strokes for different folks here I guess. Though personally nose and lip rings , punk hair, and black leather aren't my thing.

darkstar

2004-06-16 22:48 | User Profile

Yes, I have known lots of goths since my early teens. Some of them did indeed collect Nazi memorabilia, at least when they were young, but they had no real NS attitudes. Also, I doubt that this is a very common practise.

Like punk, Goth has been dead for quite some time -- but I suppose that suits the goths. :) Really, though, it is pretty massively 'sold out'--just consider that the most popular 'Sims' character is 'Bella goth.' But there are pockets of individuals who keep a good look going, and have some good music, so that is cool.

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Sounds like you have some firsthand knowledge here.

Different strokes for different folks here I guess. Though personally nose and lip rings , punk hair, and black leather aren't my thing.[/QUOTE]

PaleoconAvatar

2004-06-17 00:44 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]On the American side of things, there may be more to this than what is on the surface:

Following is a thread at LF mentioning Mobus:

[url]http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_history&Number=1486027&t=0[/url]

Other names that seem to come up after some quick googling: Michael Aquino, The Temple of Set, The Order of the Trapezoid

Some creepy stuff, no doubt.[/QUOTE]

Mobus was the person at Dr. Pierce's, yes.

As far as the Order of the Trapezoid, I believe I heard that the former head of that Order is now working on a book about a Eurocentric political renaissance, so to speak. Although they are quite diplomatic about the ways they phrase things, Wintermute was on to something: they know the real deal about this country's Zionist controllers. They are not friendly to PC conceptions. A major project many along these lines are working on is the yearly Tyr journal, sold at amazon.com.

Texas Dissident

2004-06-17 00:54 | User Profile

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]Mobus was the person at Dr. Pierce's, yes.

Thanks, PA. Looks like some of this info thrown out here is over the target.

I wonder if you know if the head of the Order you speak is the same person who supposedly performed 'magic' rituals in the same places in Germany that Himmler did? How prominent are the devotees of this sort of thing on the internet?

PaleoconAvatar

2004-06-17 01:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Thanks, PA. Looks like some of this info thrown out here is over the target.

It is not the same person, but they are colleagues. The Wewelsburg Working was undertaken by Dr. Michael Aquino, and there are Internet posts to the effect that he did not intend this as a "Nazi" undertaking, but instead it was related to that castle's connection to Graal myths. I can't speak with authority on any of this, as I am not an initiate of the Temple of Set and thus have no access to their internal publications. I only know what I've read on the public side of it. The former head of the O.Tr. was Dr. Stephen Flowers, who teaches at a university in Texas and focuses on the preservation of Indo-European Studies, a field sadly under attack by the egalitarian impulses currently gripping academia.

In the interests of full disclosure, I am sympathetic to these currents since they represent something rare in modern society--sort of an elite Platonic Academy, and I've also detected a wholesome Eurocentricity underlying their endeavors. As you can tell, most are also extremely well-educated. They can only serve as life-formative forces in any future reconstruction of the West. For insights into their philosophical commitments, the Guild of the Grail site's reading list is largely derived from their sources: [url]http://members.cox.net/guildofthegrail/lac.html[/url]

As far as prominence, keeping in mind the difference between quality and quantity, the only thing prominent out there is pornography, spam selling various sorts of pills, and "mainstream" propaganda.

Texas Dissident

2004-06-17 01:50 | User Profile

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]They can only serve as life-formative forces in any future reconstruction of the West.[/QUOTE]

Well as you can imagine, that opinion is very much subject to debate.

But thank you for the info, it is very informative.

PaleoconAvatar

2004-06-17 01:57 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Well as you can imagine, that opinion is very much subject to debate.

Of course.

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]But thank you for the info, it is very informative.[/QUOTE]

Feel free to share your research here with us. I, for one, find these things very interesting. I noticed the G:G: reading list is not current enough to list the book The DaVinci Code, which was a topic on this board for debate. I've wondered what they would have put in their blurb on their reading list about it. I've not delved into that area much, though.

annalex

2004-06-17 05:38 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Well you certainly proved her wrong.[/QUOTE] I begin to realize her frustration. Can I indicate that I am responding to you other than by quoting you? Can I direct a reply to several members? Can I self-search?

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]if he were a jew he'd join the ADL. Who knows?[/QUOTE] Surely the ills of the ADL are of a fundamental nature, and then a principled Jew should not join it, just like a principled German should not join the skinheads.

Okiereddust

2004-06-17 06:55 | User Profile

[QUOTE=annalex]I begin to realize her frustration. Can I indicate that I am responding to you other than by quoting you? Can I direct a reply to several members? Can I self-search?

I'm afraid none of the above. This forum software is pretty basic, not highly advanced and modified as with FR and LF.

With a small forum though these features aren't as necessary, as there aren't that many threads going on so every can pretty much guess where and who comments are directed to just by checking the "latest posts" or "new posts" feature. That's all I need to keep track of things.

Surely the ills of the ADL are of a fundamental nature, and then a principled Jew should not join it, just like a principled German should not join the skinheads.[/QUOTE]I'd certainly agree with you, having a sound conservative understanding, religiously, ethically and morally rooted in western culture, of what "principled" entails, not to mention the necessity of the term.

Somehow though the nihlist trajectory that those referred to on this thread have embarked on has gone much further than I realized in rejecting all these things.

Okiereddust

2004-06-17 07:03 | User Profile

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]As far as the Order of the Trapezoid, I believe I heard that the former head of that Order is now working on a book about a Eurocentric political renaissance, so to speak. Although they are quite diplomatic about the ways they phrase things, Wintermute was on to something: they know the real deal about this country's Zionist controllers. I wonder how one can really be straightforward talking about a European renaissance when ones concept of both European and renaissance differs so much from the historical meanings and contents of the term.> They are not friendly to PC conceptions.[/QUOTE]

I don't know. I see the gothic self-identity having an awful lot of similarity to that of the Politically Correct guru's of the Frankfurt School and postmodernism, one marked by, as MacDonald described the self identity of Derrida, "ambiguity, deception, and self-deception".

annalex

2004-06-17 07:06 | User Profile

I just figured out self-search. Click on your name anywhere on the thread, then on "Find all search by" link.

Faust

2004-06-18 03:07 | User Profile

PaleoconAvatar,

Great Post.

[QUOTE]As far as the Order of the Trapezoid, I believe I heard that the former head of that Order is now working on a book about a Eurocentric political renaissance, so to speak. Although they are quite diplomatic about the ways they phrase things, Wintermute was on to something: they know the real deal about this country's Zionist controllers. They are not friendly to PC conceptions. A major project many along these lines are working on is the yearly Tyr journal, sold at amazon.com.

As far as prominence, keeping in mind the difference between quality and quantity, the only thing prominent out there is pornography, spam selling various sorts of pills, and "mainstream" propaganda. [/QUOTE]

Related thread on Russia

Church of Nav: New Russian Ariosophist Sect
[url]http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=13971[/url]

White Nationalism Rising In Russia
[url]http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=14113[/url]

PaleoconAvatar

2004-06-18 03:51 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]I wonder how one can really be straightforward talking about a European renaissance when ones concept of both European and renaissance differs so much from the historical meanings and contents of the term/[/QUOTE]

The term "European renaissance" is a euphemism (or "code") for "resurgence of blood loyalty" as a driving form of politics.

Surely the ills of the ADL are of a fundamental nature, and then a principled Jew should not join it, just like a principled German should not join the skinheads.

I'd certainly agree with you, having a sound conservative understanding, religiously, ethically and morally rooted in western culture, of what "principled" entails, not to mention the necessity of the term.

What direction is this concept of being "principled" headed? I can understand and sympathize if you mean by it that the ADL is to be frowned upon because of their underhanded methods of espionage and character-assassination, or skinheads because they tend to engage in pointless acts of individual violence. That's obvious.

But it would be worse if the skinhead joins the ADL or the Jew tries to join the skinheads, since one would be out of place--what's "principled" about joining with the interests of races other than one's own? Why is the orientation toward "the other" considered to be more "moral" than orientation toward one's own? If everyone is your brother, no one is your brother. I worry about the intoxicating effects of these posited "universals," since if the "principled" of each race join together, then you have another version of globalism on your hands. Count me out of that "rainbow coalition."

annalex

2004-06-18 04:38 | User Profile

How about this. Both ADL and the skinheads should objectively be shunned by both the Jews and the Germans, and the Eskimos, and any other, for reasons obvious. (we can discuss differences between the two, by no means trivial, if necessary).

But when a Jew joins the ADL, it is understandable, ditto for other group allegiance. If an Eskimo joins the ADL, he must be joining for what the ADL objectively is today, --a racket to suppress objectivity as regards the Jews. A Jew is likely to have a greater insight into the Jewish suffering than in Eskimo suffering, and less into the Jewish guilt that in Eskimo guilt. That doesn't make an ADL Jew right, but it makes him excused, the same of course applies to other ethnic allegiances.

The excuse disappears when ethnicity ceases to be an excuse of insufficient information and becomes a sufficient positive cause in itself: since I am Eskimo I must join Eskimo organizations no matter what they do.

Okiereddust

2004-06-18 05:04 | User Profile

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]The term "European renaissance" is a euphemism (or "code") for "resurgence of blood loyalty" as a driving form of politics. This strikes me as a NA/VNN/Linderite type innovation in WN, distinguishing it and driving it from conservatism. To a conservative, who sees more in life than racialism and biology, there is nothing "euphemestic" or "code" in this term, rather it means just what it it supposed to mean, a general cultural and spritual revival.

What direction is this concept of being "principled" headed? I can understand and sympathize if you mean by it that the ADL is to be frowned upon because of their underhanded methods of espionage and character-assassination, or skinheads because they tend to engage in pointless acts of individual violence. That's obvious.

This fear and rejection of "universal humanity" of course has always been the reason racialists cite in rejecting Christianity and I suppose other universal religions, substituting particular ones. Racialists try recreating ersatz old pagan traditions, Judaism of course also does not recognize universal humanity.

Going along with this is a seeming rejection of the idea of universal morality truth, and the transcendent (at least the transcendent good) so characteristic of nihlism, originating with Nietzsche, and in some aspects personified in postmodernism, except for the double standards in postmodernism towards humanity and "the other".

One, going in this direction, ends up at in Germany with the obvious depravity of the gothic scene seemingly epitimizing the trends of the early National Socialist era, where "barbarism was a form of conservatism, and the devil a form of religiousity". As long as it retains this NS orientation, WN wil remain something that no decent person will consider, and be consigned to dredging up supporters like those from the Gothic scene.

darkstar

2004-06-18 09:18 | User Profile

Er, I think the other reason racialists cite for rejecting Christianity is that involve any number of claims that are truly weird, and for which there is no public, rational evidence. (Hopefully, most Christians can agree with this characterization of Christianity.)

Maybe you meant--'specifically racialist' objections to Christianity?

Likewise, many racialist reject 'conservatism' because, in typcial usage, it is an ill-defined ideology normally turned to the preservation of false and/or harmful traditions and beliefs. Again, not a specifically racialist reason--but racialists are typically more than just racialists.

Paleoleftist

2004-06-18 13:10 | User Profile

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]They can only serve as life-formative forces in any future reconstruction of the West. [/QUOTE]

Count me out on this. A satanist cult is the kind of life form I do not even want to find in the zoo. :yucky:

Paleoleftist

2004-06-18 13:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]This strikes me as a NA/VNN/Linderite type innovation in WN, distinguishing it and driving it from conservatism. To a conservative, who sees more in life than racialism and biology, there is nothing "euphemestic" or "code" in this term, rather it means just what it it supposed to mean, a general cultural and spritual revival. [/QUOTE]

Add to this that 'resurgence of blood loyalty' is itself ambiguous. In the best case it could mean loyalty to European bloodlines, but it could also mean 'loyalty to a blood cult' :glare: , and in the case of a satanist temple, this interpretation wouldnÃÂ´t seem so far-fetched.

Valley Forge

2004-06-18 16:37 | User Profile

This is a garbage article.

Valley Forge

2004-06-18 16:43 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]To a conservative, who sees more in life than racialism and biology, there is nothing "euphemestic" or "code" in this term, rather it means just what it it supposed to mean, a general cultural and spritual revival.[/QUOTE]

General cultural and spiritual revival is not possible sans a white racialist foundation.

That's what conservatives do not understand because of ignorance, stupidity, and self-deception.

Texas Dissident

2004-06-18 17:04 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]General cultural and spiritual revival is not possible sans a white racialist foundation.[/QUOTE]

Romans 1:25

One flows out of and from the other and not vice versa.

Matthew 6:33

Paleoleftist

2004-06-18 17:07 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]This is a garbage article.[/QUOTE]

The article may be over the top, mainly because most Goths are kids following a fad.

But hardcore Satanists, like the [URL=http://www.xeper.org/]Temple of Set,[/URL] are not a laughing matter.

And if it turns out that such people play a role in the 'WN' movement, and PaleoAvat seems to think so, then this is just one more reason to keep that movement at armÃÂ´s length. And this Moebus guy is indeed a ritual murderer. On the reasons why Pierce sheltered him, one can only guess. :unsure:

Okiereddust

2004-06-18 17:45 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]General cultural and spiritual revival is not possible sans a white racialist foundation.

That's what conservatives do not understand because of ignorance, stupidity, and self-deception.[/QUOTE]

You sound like the Jews who argued the same thing, and whose logic Jesus spent so much of his time refuting.

MAT 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Of course many of your WN friends would argue that Christianity per se is this very "ignorance, stupidity, and self-deception".

So which will it be VF? A man cannot serve two masters. Much less drink of the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils.

Okiereddust

2004-06-18 17:48 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Paleoleftist]The article may be over the top, mainly because most Goths are kids following a fad.

But hardcore Satanists, like the [URL=http://www.xeper.org/]Temple of Set,[/URL] are laughing matter, [/QUOTE]Child fads like Goth are certsainly no laughing matter to child psychologists either, much less parents and preachers.

Texas Dissident

2004-06-18 17:56 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Paleoleftist]But hardcore Satanists, like the [URL=http://www.xeper.org/]Temple of Set,[/URL] are not a laughing matter.

Indeed, they most assuredly are not.

And if it turns out that such people play a role in the 'WN' movement, and PaleoAvat seems to think so, then this is just one more reason to keep that movement at armÃÂ´s length.[/QUOTE]

Well admittedly I have no in-depth knowledge or experience in this area, but PA's post did serve as kind of an eye-opener for me at least. At most I can say right now is that I just don't know how extensively involved and/or interconnected these groups are.

Now as Ruffin posted early in the thread, there is prominent and visible evil in high places and we certainly need to be doing all we can to combat that. I'm not sure though that gives us an excuse not to root out and expose evil in lower places, if and when we happen to come across it. At the very least I would think Christians have the moral responsiblity to warn their brothers and sisters in Christ who exactly they may be getting into bed with, so to speak, by getting involved in various political and cultural groups that at their spiritual core are enemies of the visible bride of Christ. I don't think St. Paul could be any clearer than what he writes in 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 "Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil." I tend to think that we should be like Patton and attack on both sides, but then again maybe I'm wrong on that and some of the things brought up in this thread are relatively harmless and any focus given to it is simply a meaningless distraction from what our true purpose should be. Of course some may also say the same about books like the DaVinci Code also, but that one book has garnered a barrage of counters from almost every prominent Christian leader and organization across the entire spectrum of the Church, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Obviously, something is afoot and I know I don't want to see the Church asleep at the wheel until it is too late.

In our comfortable day and age, I am struck by how most Christians, myself included, don't seem to give much thought or attention to the very real and present evil that surrounds us and our mission here on earth.

Valley Forge

2004-06-18 22:22 | User Profile

PA, Honestly, I don't see how someone like yourself can take this non-sense seriously.

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]It is not the same person, but they are colleagues. The Wewelsburg Working was undertaken by Dr. Michael Aquino, and there are Internet posts to the effect that he did not intend this as a "Nazi" undertaking, but instead it was related to that castle's connection to Graal myths. I can't speak with authority on any of this, as I am not an initiate of the Temple of Set and thus have no access to their internal publications. I only know what I've read on the public side of it. The former head of the O.Tr. was Dr. Stephen Flowers, who teaches at a university in Texas and focuses on the preservation of Indo-European Studies, a field sadly under attack by the egalitarian impulses currently gripping academia.

darkstar

2004-06-18 22:27 | User Profile

Yes, I am sure prominent white nationalists such as Jared Taylor, Sam Francis, and Peter Brimelow are major Setians. The meet in New Orleans, long a center of the occult, to call forth white nationalists souls to their side, which they then sell to the Washington Post for a tidy profit.

If one insists on reducing 'white nationalists' to 'some of those really annyonying people who post a lot of crude pro-white messages on the Internet and don't like Christianity,' then one can say all sorts of negative things about white nationalists.

Most white nationalists probably have never heard the term 'white nationalism,' but simply act instinctively to champion the interests of the white race. White nationalism, as an ideology, has been around for centuries; ever since whites who concerned themselves with racial purity came in contact with non-whites.

Ditto for 'white supremacists.'

If one wishes to have a term of abuse, and 'neo-Nazi' wont do, a little invention might be in order. Maybe 'white hate groups.' Hahaha.

Valley Forge

2004-06-18 22:27 | User Profile

Okie, my point is that conservative like yourself don't seem to recognize that new approaches to politics may be needed since Conservatives like you have accomplished virtually nothing the last 60 years. But if you want to criticize me for not wanting to stick with the failed methods of the past, that's your business. And this stuff about Satanism and WN is nonsense.

Paleoleftist

2004-06-18 22:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]PA, Honestly, I don't see how someone like yourself can take this non-sense seriously.[/QUOTE]

Why, there are sure organizations that are up to no good. WhatÃÂ´s so unbelievable about that?

Valley Forge

2004-06-18 22:37 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust] A man cannot serve two masters. Much less drink of the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils.[/QUOTE]

I have been one of the biggest advocates on this site of opposing Jews on the grounds that their power and influence will make it difficult for us to lead our people in a spiritual renewal. So I'd say if anyone is drinking from the wrong cup here, it's the people who are reluctant to face the enemies of our Lord head on, since failure to confront our Lord's enemies helps keep them in power over our people.

PaleoconAvatar

2004-06-18 23:05 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]PA, Honestly, I don't see how someone like yourself can take this non-sense seriously.[/QUOTE]

I can understand where you're coming from. I've found that there are a lot of interesting "underground" ideas out there, and the mainstream Zionist-controlled society we live in has classed large swaths of these as taboo. Are many of them "nonsense?" Could very well be. But I am reluctant to dismiss anything, because I realize how much human beings throughout history have been motivated by "nonsense," often finding it more persuasive and alluring than truth itself. And I am reminded of Jung's essay on "Wotan"--archetypes and strange undercurrents swirl about in the collective unconscious of Western man, and who knows what might be sparked? Who knows what might unseat the current power structure? There's also the view that "secret societies" have long influenced politics and the Intelligence community, etc.

Google searches on this are fascinating. Here's some material to ponder, with bolded areas emphasis mine:

From: [email]oversxxxd@aol.com[/email] (Oversxxxd) [url=http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=19990425215906.04552.00002597%40ng-ch1.aol.com&output=gplain]Subject: Racial Superiority and Satanic Purpose[/url]: was (White Supremacy and the Occult) Date: 1999/04/26 Message-ID: 19990425215906.04552.00002597@ng-ch1.aol.com#1/1 References: 7fv17i$lh5$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz Organization: AOL [url]http://www.aol.com[/url] Newsgroups: alt.satanism X-Admin: [email]news@aol.com[/email]

Once again a line is drawn in this newsgroup (alt.Satanism; I cannot speak to the responses in cross-posted NGs). The ostensible point of division is the question of racialism. However, I contend that the real dispute is over the role and purpose of Satanism in the modern world.

On one side stands an individual who asserts the moral and cultural superiority of the Anglo-European race. This stance has been assailed by a broad coalition of anti-stratification egalitarians and "democratic stratification" Satanists. Leaving aside the well-worn particulars of the argument, what is the philosophical framework for conscious advocacy of doctrines of racial superiority?

The National Socialist Mr. Peipers openly avers a commitment to the historical dialectic, advocating an ideology and practical outcomes which advance human evolution. In this context, his racialism stands as a coherent part of a broader paradigm, a Promethian ideal which is clearly Satanic, by any measure.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with Mr. Peiper's specific arguments, the belief that human advancement is best served by a racially pure gene pool can hardly be equated with the unstudied, ingrained bigotry of the herd (found in all races and ethnic groups). Rather, it is a consciously chosen decision based on strategic principles. Therefore the real debate should be about these principles, not "racism." In fact, the anti-racist axis of Mr. Peiper's detractors betrays a philosophical bankruptcy that bears examination.

Wrapping themselves in moral indignation, those who have opposed the principled cultural imperialism of Mr. Peiper lash out in knee-jerk fashion against percieved "racism", without examining, or even glimpsing, the applying Satanic principles. Specifically, they have failed to make a case against the idea of human advancement thorough rigorous stratification, or to show how this process is facilitated by their staunch anti-racism.

Social Darwinism is not about making excuses for the inferior, any more than natural Darwinism cares why individual species fail to survive. What makes the inferior so? Simply fact of their decline and ultimate extinction. Any rationalization is only that... it has no bearing on the evolutionary outcome. Arguments about limited arable land, culturally biased intelligence tests or the merits of individual accomplishment are nothing more than attempts to explain why things are the way they are; they are irrelevant.

Modern states exist, in part, to mediate the process of social evolution. I've stated elsewhere why I believe this to be a fundamentally Jehovan (i.e., judeo-xtian) ethic. This view is not required to validate the Satanic dialectic of human progress through unfettered evolution, though. However one chooses to view it (Nazarene-influenced or genuinely secular), the State today stands everywhere as the foremost enemy of stratification, and is therefore an obstacle to be obliterated... if one upholds the ideal of conscious human evolution.

On this basis, National Socialism stands as the ultimate heresy to those of all nations who oppose fundamental change to the status quo. It is the only ideological tool for assailing the Nazarene state in all its guises; as such it is an important weapon in the Satanic arsenal.

(This, by the way, is an entirely impersonal judgment on my part, as is my advocacy of white superiority. It has nothing to do with subjective moral opinions or my attitude toward individuals, and everything to do with my commitment to Satanic revolution and the Promethian ideal.)

Of course, it's perfectly acceptable to argue that is not an ideal worth supporting. Nihilist Satanists who believe that their own existence is all that matters have earned my respect, if not agreement, with their well-reasoned arguments. This has not been an element in the approach of the racial equality-ists, however. There is no strategic element in their thinking, only abstract moralism and irrelevant debaters' points.

Understanding the difference between the unthinking bigotry of the Klan or the Nation of Islam and the clear, conscious racialism of National Socialism is essential to a grasp of Satanic politics and any broader purpose that one might ascribe to Satanism in the real world. Only by addressing this issue is it possible for Satanic anti-racists to differentiate their positions from garden-variety liberalism, and demonstrate a pragmatic Satanic advantage deriving from therefrom.

Clif Winters Unrepentant Sinner/Satanist Provocateur

From: [email]cwinters9@aol.comx[/email]xx (CWinters9) Subject: [url=http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=19990429171103.13129.00000386%40ng-ch1.aol.com&output=gplain"]Satanic Politics Revisited[/url] (was Re: The Christians-a rant) Date: 1999/04/29 Message-ID: 19990429171103.13129.00000386@ng-ch1.aol.com References: 37289DC0.CF2FB456@sprint.ca Organization: AOL [url]http://www.aol.com[/url] Newsgroups: alt.satanism X-Admin: [email]news@aol.com[/email]

Spectre writes:

I think what should be done now is to break the strangle hold Christianity has on society.

This gets to the nub of things, doesn't it? The secular Nazarene State(including government, banks, public schools and corporations) and its pillars of support (media, church, political parties and other fonts of "public opinion") stand in stark opposition to any genuine (Satanic) notion of freedom, personal expression, or human development. As long as this chokehold is maintained, full human being-ness is not possible, however much individual Satanists integrate their principles into daily living.

The "Pentagonal Revisionism" program of the CoS is an attempt to address this critically important question. However, like any reformist platform, LaVey's revisionist creed stumbles over its own irresoluteness and ultimate lack of perspective. Thus we see vital positions such as the call for stratification and the return of lex talionis interspersed with "artificial human companion" silliness and misguided statist conceptions (tax the church, legal reform).

(Note to anti-LaVeyans: this is by no means an attack on Dr. LaVey or the CoS. My criticism not withstanding, the 1000-word Pentagonal Revisionism essay alone contains more vital Satanic thought, and has had a bigger impact, than your collective lifetime works. Your sectarian antics are the worst kind of obstructionist treachery.)

The problem with calling on the government to tax the churches or on politicians to change the laws is that it is a strategy of asking the State to change itself. Revisionism (or reformism) of any kind is nothing more than begging, hat in hand, for a few crumbs from the master's table. Whether the tactics selected are passive (lobbying, behind the scenes politicking, etc.) or active (marches, demonstrations, etc.), the intended goal is the same: force a concession or make some kind of change through the agency of the enemy itself.

The futility of this approach should be clear to all with eyes that can see thanks, Xlopunty). For those who are committed to breaking the xtian stranglehold, such revisionism should be seen as -- at best -- a subordinate aspect of a larger, strategic perspective. I call this perspective "Satanarchy."

What does the Satanarchist perspective entail?

First, it means a full, conscious, outspoken public identification with the forces of darkness. These forces I generalize under the label Chaos. Chaos represents at the same time both the entropy of modern society and the profound order inherent in nature, but as yet mostly indiscernible by human knowledge. Chaos is the only force with sufficient strength to undo the Jehovahn world order. Therefore a Satanarchist is an agent of Chaos.

Most significantly, this encompasses a complete rejection of Nazarene morality. Chaos most often appears as the whirlwind; death and destruction are inevitable accompaniments to its presence. Recognizing the devastating outcomes of Chaos presencing (as in Littleton and Kosovo, for example) as positive Satanic advances requires a steel-hard tempering against the pathetic moanings of society at large. Where they see tragedy, we see justice. Where they decry the horror of war, we hail might as right.

The two views are entirely incompatible, and any deference to the herd ethos is unacceptable. Consequently, when popular morality puts in its appearance in our camp, it is appropriate that it be dealt with harshly.

Secondly, Satanarchy means being culturally subversive. This is accomplished by waving your opposition to their standards in the face of the herd, and especially in front of the "rams" (xtian ideologues). This extends from easy things like putting a bumper sticker on one's car or wearing a baphomet in Dairy Queen, to more uncomfortable confrontations with teachers, neighbors and coworkers. While discretion is obviously still appropriate at times, too often (I suspect) we allow the cultural abominations of the enemy to go unchallenged. While this cultural subversion by no means requires one to be a "public Satanist", it does demand the backbone to speak out in sometimes-difficult situations.

The extreme form of cultural subversiveness is heresy. I've addressed the value of heresy on other threads, so I won't reiterate here. However, suffice to say that the Satanarchist encourages fascism, bolshevism, racialism, radical environmentalism and any other doctrine that stands as an authentic heresy to the norms of modern civilization.

Unlike his smug, self-satisfied brethren, the Satanarchist is indifferent to ideology, recognizing all such systems as groupthink traps. Instead, he applies a supremely pragmatic approach to ideological questions: "does this advance the Satanic dialectic?" Those beliefs and actions which undermine the physical, psychological and moral foundations of the present order are deemed "good," and are supported. Those that do not, are not.

This transcendence of personal belief systems may be the most difficult part of the entire process for would-be Satanarchists. The debates on this list show how tenaciously most individuals cling to their points of view, without a thought for real-world implications. Without such impersonal detachment, it's easy to get bogged down in a morass of abstract moralism, and fall under the (mostly unconscious) influence of the Nazarene ethos.

This is a key benefit to heretical thinking... it brings each individual to a direct confrontation with deeply held (and therefore most likely scripted) beliefs. The Satanarchist can wear any ideology like a costume; beneath the disguise beats the heart of an amoral, subversive heretic...the most able agent of change on the planet. For those among us who uphold the Promethian standard of human advancement, this is a path that is both practical and rewarding.

Clif Winters Unrepentant Sinner/Satanic Provocateur

The material that poster brings up is familiar to many readers of OD--what you're seeing here is a particular subculture of "Satanists" debating the role of National Socialism as a "useful heresy" for undermining even the aspects of modernity that OD's religious conservatives oppose as well.

Okie will likely notice the quote from above to the effect that,> Instead, he applies a supremely pragmatic approach to ideological questions: "does this advance the Satanic dialectic?" Those beliefs and actions which undermine the physical, psychological and moral foundations of the present order are deemed "good," and are supported. Those that do not, are not. Admittedly, it's quite similar to the view that "anything that advances White survival is good, and anything that doesn't, isn't."

So the question becomes who is "using" who? A key case in point would be Britain's David Myatt, an activist who some say uses occult forms to advance racial politics, while others say he uses racial politics to advance occult forms....

Paleoleftist

2004-06-18 23:10 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]I have been one of the biggest advocates on this site of opposing Jews on the grounds that their power and influence will make it difficult for us to lead our people in a spiritual renewal. So I'd say if anyone is drinking from the wrong cup here, it's the people who are reluctant to face the enemies of our Lord head on, since failure to confront our Lord's enemies helps keep them in power over our people.[/QUOTE]

I understand you perfectly, but here are a few golden words:

[QUOTE][B]It would, therefore, be a great mistake to draw ... the conclusion that a blind dash must always gain the victory over skill and caution. An unskilful attack would lead to the destruction of our own and not of the enemy's force[.] [/B][/QUOTE] [I]-Carl v. Clausewitz, On War, Book I, Chapter 2[/I]

Valley Forge

2004-06-19 00:34 | User Profile

Fair enough, PL.

But just to clarify, I'm proposing that we take the battle to our enemies in ways that will be effective -- not that we replay Picket's charge.

[QUOTE=Paleoleftist]I understand you perfectly, but here are a few golden words:

[I]-Carl v. Clausewitz, On War, Book I, Chapter 2[/I][/QUOTE]

Valley Forge

2004-06-19 00:50 | User Profile

Honestly, even though the NS/racial angle is interesting, I think you're playing with fire here.

If I were you, I wouldn't get too involved with people who are serious about calling on Satan and the dark powers.

Satan, demons, and hell are very real my friend, so they will get a response -- of that I have no doubt.

Be careful with this stuff.

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]I can understand where you're coming from. I've found that there are a lot of interesting "underground" ideas out there, and the mainstream Zionist-controlled society we live in has classed large swaths of these as taboo. Are many of them "nonsense?" Could very well be. But I am reluctant to dismiss anything, because I realize how much human beings throughout history have been motivated by "nonsense," often finding it more persuasive and alluring than truth itself. And I am reminded of Jung's essay on "Wotan"--archetypes and strange undercurrents swirl about in the collective unconscious of Western man, and who knows what might be sparked? Who knows what might unseat the current power structure? There's also the view that "secret societies" have long influenced politics and the Intelligence community, etc.[/QUOTE]

PaleoconAvatar

2004-06-19 01:18 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]Honestly, even though the NS/racial angle is interesting, I think you're playing with fire here.

If I were you, I wouldn't get too involved with people who are serious about calling on Satan and the dark powers.

Satan, demons, and hell are very real my friend, so they will get a response -- of that I have no doubt.

Be careful with this stuff.[/QUOTE]

Fortunately, I'm not involved with any "people." I research independently. I'm reminded of the quote from The Mummy Returns: (paraphrasing) "No harm ever came from reading a book." :wink:

Valley Forge

2004-06-19 01:20 | User Profile

What do you make of this Aquino person?

Isn't he a trained psy-ops specialist?

PaleoconAvatar

2004-06-19 01:54 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]What do you make of this Aquino person?

Isn't he a trained psy-ops specialist?[/QUOTE]

I think that he's a man of high quality, rare for the times we live in. Whether or not you agree with his religious positions, you have to admit that there aren't many people out there who could successfully combine (yes) Special Forces and PsyOps training, Ph.D. in Political Science [International Relations]/university teaching, and then have the encyclopedic historical and esoteric knowledge to found an initiatory society. Not to mention he was a key figure in a famous countercultural/1960s moment in history out in California (the Church of Satan and such). Heck (uh, no pun intended), he's even written Star Wars fan-fiction portraying events as the Dark Side would have perceived it, and recently did the same for Lord of the Rings....

Bardamu

2004-06-19 17:57 | User Profile

Ive spent about 4 years studying racialist websites, all of which contain a fair percentage of "neo-nazis", and the number of comments, thoughts, asides, associations that had any relationship at all to "Satanism" can be counted on one hand.

The Goth movement is associated politically with anarchism and has a clear anti-nationalist orientation.

Paleoleftist

2004-06-19 22:33 | User Profile

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]Not to mention he was a key figure in a famous countercultural/1960s moment in history out in California (the Church of Satan and such). [/QUOTE]

Wonderful. Precisely what we need more of. [/irony]

Faust

2004-06-20 01:29 | User Profile

Valley Forge is Right "This is a garbage article."

I am no fan of that Moebus guy, but I don't think he is a ritual murderer, I think he more a juvenile delinquent than anything else.

Bardamu is also Right "The Goth movement is associated politically with anarchism and has a clear anti-nationalist orientation." I understand a common insult yelled at them high schools is "Gay Satan Worshiper"

Take a look at this site see the common degenerate marxist pro sodomite "Goth" type. [url]http://www.toreadors.com/[/url]

Paleoleftist

2004-06-20 03:24 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]He killed a Turk in some kind of fight as I recall,... [/QUOTE]

Nope, the victim wasnÃÂ´t a foreigner, and it was premeditated.

Only reason M. didnÃÂ´t get lifelong was his age.

wild_bill

2004-06-20 07:25 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Bardamu]Ive spent about 4 years studying racialist websites, all of which contain a fair percentage of "neo-nazis", and the number of comments, thoughts, asides, associations that had any relationship at all to "Satanism" can be counted on one hand.

The Goth movement is associated politically with anarchism and has a clear anti-nationalist orientation.[/QUOTE]

Among the young people in my area, at least, and I'll presume this is the situation most everywhere, are basically divided into two camps: goths or wiggers. My daughter, who is a Christian and race conscious, goes in for a certain amount of the goth fashions, over which I don't get too bothered, since at least the goths dress modestly as opposed the wigger girls who seem to model themselves after Africanized, racemixing, arch-sluts Christine Aguilera and Brittany Spears.

So far I haven't heard about any of the goth kids actually getting involved with satanism, although I won't allow my kid to listen to some of the questionable metal music. I agree that its more of a fashion statement.

There is even Christian-oriented gothic metal music, if you can believe it. Some of it is not bad if one has a taste for heavy rock.

Christian Metal Links [url]http://www.bnrmetal.com/lists/genres/christian.htm[/url]

Okiereddust

2004-06-21 00:59 | User Profile

The Goth movement is associated politically with anarchism and has a clear anti-nationalist orientation.[/QUOTE] It wouldn't be surprising that they wouldn't have a direct relationship to Satanism, since that directness is length is unpopular and in any sense almost always secret. But a more general relationship to the occult of course has always permeated the NS and/or pagan side of WN, and there are a lot of things hid under the umbrella. The mainstream form of WN paganism of course is Odinism, which is sort of right-wing version of Wicca. Wicca of course seems to be sort of like Gothic in relationship to Satanism, sort of a broader over category which certainly contains some closely Satanic groups and sharing a lot of the common worldview and symbology.

Bardamu

2004-06-21 01:24 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]It wouldn't be surprising that they wouldn't have a direct relationship to Satanism, since that directness is length is unpopular and in any sense almost always secret. But a more general relationship to the occult of course has always permeated the NS and/or pagan side of WN, and there are a lot of things hid under the umbrella. The mainstream form of WN paganism of course is Odinism, which is sort of right-wing version of Wicca. Wicca of course seems to be sort of like Gothic in relationship to Satanism, sort of a broader over category which certainly contains some closely Satanic groups and sharing a lot of the common worldview and symbology.[/QUOTE]

I guess it depends on how you define "the occult". In the old days, if I am not mistaken, Christians defined all non-Christian religious worship as "satanism", with the one exception of Judaism for obvious reasons. Do you consider Hinduism and Buddhism "the occult"?

PaleoconAvatar

2004-06-21 01:45 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Bardamu]I guess it depends on how you define "the occult". In the old days, if I am not mistaken, Christians defined all non-Christian religious worship as "satanism", with the one exception of Judaism for obvious reasons. Do you consider Hinduism and Buddhism "the occult"?[/QUOTE]

Our own Texas Dissident [url=http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=14225]suggested[/url] that the ancient text The Bhagavad Gita would likely be found next to Deepak Chopra's works on the "New Age" bookshelf. This leads me to believe that TD and maybe some others here are part of the branch of Christians that popularized the phrase, "The New Age is the Old Age," meaning that the pre-Christian religions are necessarily "of Satan." The interesting thing about this is that many of these older religions have no "Satan" figure. For the Norse, Odin embodied both aspects of light and darkness.

darkstar

2004-06-21 02:01 | User Profile

Terming all pre-Christian religious forms 'Satanic' has long been a habit of many Christians. To see this continuing today, I simply find laughable. There is little recognition that so-called 'Satanists' often claim that Christian teachings about Satan are false, and that 'Satan' actually refers to various pre-Christian religious figures--whose symbolism they then incorporate into 'Satanism.' In other words, those supposedly non-Satanic practises seeming to use Satanic symbols are not hidding Satanic orgings; rather, avowed Satanists are hidding their Egyptian, Gnostic, Greek, Celtic, or (occasionaly) Germanic religions under the guise of Satanism.

The 'occult' refers most fundementally to hidden teachings concerning hidden matters. Occult practises have grown up around Christian relics as well. Primitive attempts to divide symbolism into 'Good-Christian' vs. 'Evil-occult' are misguided.

Paleoleftist

2004-06-21 02:13 | User Profile

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]Our own Texas Dissident [url=http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=14225]suggested[/url] that the ancient text The Bhagavad Gita would likely be found next to Deepak Chopra's works on the "New Age" bookshelf. This leads me to believe that TD and maybe some others here are part of the branch of Christians that popularized the phrase, "The New Age is the Old Age," meaning that the pre-Christian religions are necessarily "of Satan." The interesting thing about this is that many of these older religions have no "Satan" figure. For the Norse, Odin embodied both aspects of light and darkness.[/QUOTE]

1) Worshipping both Good and Evil doesnÃÂ´t make a lot of sense. 2) The real pre-Christian pagan religions were not satanist per se. 3) Modern pagan religions within the Christian world are anti-Christian designer cults, which makes them crypto-satanists at best. Not all their members are necessarily aware of that; we may make allowances for stupidity. 4) Wicca was created by Gerald Gardner, a close associate of 20th centuryÃÂ´s most infamous Satanist, Aleister Crowley. Crowley contributed about half the material. The Wiccan Inner Circle can safely be assumed to be very Satanist; the rest are probably dupes. Though even the dupes are likely half-aware that not all of Wicca is goodness and light; they can hardly be [I]that[/I] stupid.

Paleoleftist

2004-06-21 02:17 | User Profile

[QUOTE=darkstar]...rather, avowed Satanists are hidding their Egyptian, Gnostic, Greek, Celtic, or (occasionaly) Germanic religions under the guise of Satanism. [/QUOTE]

Why should they do that?

That would make as much sense as saying: 'I am not a thief, only a murderer.'

Paleoleftist

2004-06-21 02:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=darkstar]Primitive attempts to divide symbolism into 'Good-Christian' vs. 'Evil-occult' are misguided.[/QUOTE]

Symbols have a meaning, like any language. And so they can be classified as good, neutral or evil, whatever the case may be.

When I see a pentagram pointing down, I have no doubts it is an evil symbol.

darkstar

2004-06-21 03:08 | User Profile

Fine. One example of a Satanic symbol, perhaps. But this doesn't tell us too much more.

[QUOTE=Paleoleftist]Symbols have a meaning, like any language. And so they can be classified as good, neutral or evil, whatever the case may be.

When I see a pentagram pointing down, I have no doubts it is an evil symbol.[/QUOTE]

Bardamu

2004-06-21 03:17 | User Profile

Odinism is not Satanic. Would one call it occult? Are the Runes occult?

wild_bill

2004-06-21 04:02 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Bardamu]Odinism is not Satanic. Would one call it occult? Are the Runes occult?[/QUOTE]

In my personal experience many, if not most, Odinists, Wotanists, pagans, Wiccans, are unambiguously anti-Christian. Anything that's anti-Christian is satanic. That includes the followers of the Jewish religion (Pharaseeism/Talmudism) and I have no better witness to that latter fact than Jesus Christ, Himself. And, of course, all the Christian fathers agree with that too. Whom am I, a pathetic sinner, to contradict them?

See my sig for proof of the truth of my statement.

Faust

2004-06-21 04:05 | User Profile

wild_bill,

I can can agree with that, some of the dresses those goth girls like are kind of cute. I hate wiggers.

[QUOTE]"Among the young people in my area, at least, and I'll presume this is the situation most everywhere, are basically divided into two camps: goths or wiggers. My daughter, who is a Christian and race conscious, goes in for a certain amount of the goth fashions, over which I don't get too bothered, since at least the goths dress modestly as opposed the wigger girls who seem to model themselves after Africanized, racemixing, arch-sluts Christine Aguilera and Brittany Spears.

A large goth site: [url]http://www.toreadors.com/[/url]

Bardamu

Very true, but yes I think Runes are occult. Is that a bad thing? [QUOTE]Odinism is not Satanic. Would one call it occult? Are the Runes occult? [/QUOTE]

Paleoleftist,

Yes you are right thanks for the correction.

Okiereddust

2004-06-21 04:11 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Bardamu]I guess it depends on how you define "the occult".

Merriam-Webster defines occult as > : matters regarded as involving the action or influence of supernatural or supernormal powers or some secret knowledge of them -- used with the somewhat good, but also has the problem like you note that it doesn't differentiate real well between religions, except as targeting those ones considered "secret. My encylopedia has the somewhat more helpful definition that the occult> is a term that referes to a wide range of Beliefs and practices involving magic or forces outside the natural world

I think this is more helpful as it refers to what the modern and common sense American religious mind sees most sinister about pagan religions - when they are used directly in the performance of incantations, magic or other rituals invoking the direct action of spirits or supernatural powers.

In the old days, if I am not mistaken, Christians defined all non-Christian religious worship as "satanism", with the one exception of Judaism for obvious reasons. Do you consider Hinduism and Buddhism "the occult"?[/QUOTE]Well you are somewhat right, the views by Christians of non-Christian religions does evolve to some extent with times. What was always considered though most fearful or to be avoided by Christians has always been the invovation of magic incantations and other direct calls to supernatural spiritual forces, as Christians believe this these powers if they are real and virulently active to be fundamentally demonic. But this view of religions as demonic is basically confined to this secret, spiritualistic, magical aspect of religions. Above board, historically known, religions are viewed this way to a much lesser extent.

Although it is true that Christians believe ultimately all religion, and life for that matter, apart from our God is fallen and is ultimately influenced by Satan and lost, we generally reserve this term occultic for those special cases involving actual spiritism, magic etc.

darkstar

2004-06-21 04:21 | User Profile

[QUOTE=wild_bill]Anything that's anti-Christian is satanic.[/QUOTE]

This applies to most of academia, most of the media, and most European intellectuals.

It might be formally true, but 'satanic' is normally reserved for that which is more closely connected to the Prince of the World.

darkstar

2004-06-21 04:28 | User Profile

I suppose praying to the Angels or Saints for some reason doesn't count as 'other direct calls to supernatural spiritual forces'?

[QUOTE=Okiereddust] What was always considered though most fearful or to be avoided by Christians has always been the invovation of magic incantations and other direct calls to supernatural spiritual forces, as Christians believe this these powers if they are real and virulently active to be fundamentally demonic.[/QUOTE]

wild_bill

2004-06-21 04:49 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]wild_bill,

I can can agree with that, some of the dresses those goth girls like are kind of cute. I hate wiggers.[/QUOTE]

Here's another one:

Good Goth [url]http://www.goodgoth.com/eternaldresses.htm[/url]

One other plus about goth, they go for the pale look and avoid sun tans. White skin is very desirable. Imitating negroes in behavior or appearence seems to be the opposite of what they strive for.

Its an extreme form of retro fashion. Clothes are modeled on those worn by white society from the period of the middle ages up to about 1900.

Okiereddust

2004-06-21 05:14 | User Profile

[QUOTE=darkstar]I suppose praying to the Angels or Saints for some reason doesn't count as 'other direct calls to supernatural spiritual forces'?[/QUOTE]Well at least for Protestants our common sense background has tended to differentiate between spiritual forces manifesting themselves providentially and those more directly. But you're right, the differentiation is not perfectly defined.

I suppose the word "occult" tends to manifest itself in relation to those forces considered hidden or evil, as opposed to Christian spritual forces, which are open and good. This isn't I think just from the Christian viewpoint. Occult religions commonly seek spiritual forces they consciously believe are evil, i.e. satanic.

This seems to be one reason I tend to view the NS pagan religions as occultic, because their world view so often attacks not only what Christians view as good, but the very Christian concept of good, re Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil".

Faust

2004-06-21 05:19 | User Profile

wild_bill,

Yes a good point. I hate tanning. Sun tans on young women are a sick and evil thing.

[QUOTE=wild_bill]Here's another one:

Good Goth [url]http://www.goodgoth.com/eternaldresses.htm[/url]

One other plus about goth, they go for the pale look and avoid sun tans. White skin is very desirable. Imitating negroes in behavior or appearence seems to be the opposite of what they strive for.

Its an extreme form of retro fashion. Clothes are modeled on those worn by white society from the period of the middle ages up to about 1900.[/QUOTE]

Okiereddust

2004-06-21 06:34 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]wild_bill,

Yes a good point. I hate tanning. Sun tans on young women are a sick and evil thing.[/QUOTE]I don't think so. I think its just a symbolic representation of a healthy outdoor lifestyle. Personally, you can keep your clown white faced, ring pierced gothic "beauties".

darkstar

2004-06-21 06:35 | User Profile

My understading has always been that the occult deals with hidden spiritual forces, not necessarily evil ones, but that evil often hides.

As to whether Christian spritual forces are open, not hidden: there is a lot to this idea, as it seems to follow from 'I am the truth and the light.' But consider issues such as the arrangment of Cathedrals around the golden mean, or Pythagorean harmonies. Perhaps the Christians who built in this manner believed there were hidden meanings to the geometries, involving, at the least, hidden features of positive spirtual forces.

Then, of course, there are the Rosicrucians. They often claim to be 'Christian mystics.'

Mystic ultimately refers back to mystery, which in turn refers back to 'from Greek mustrion, secret rite, from musts, an initiate, from mein, to close the eyes.' The Christian 'Mysteries' and the 'occult' (same root as 'occluded') stem from the closed eye--the inward eye.

I agree that Christians in America very often use the occult in way such as you indicate. What I wonder is--should they be doing that?

There are many reasons to keep teaching secret. For one, sometimes they keep themselves secret, and require wisdom to unravel. For another, sometimes knowledge is dangerous, especially to the un-informed; or in the hands of the evil-doer.

[QUOTE=Okiereddust] I suppose the word "occult" tends to manifest itself in relation to those forces considered hidden or evil, as opposed to Christian spritual forces, which are open and good. This isn't I think just from the Christian viewpoint.[/QUOTE]

Okiereddust

2004-06-21 06:43 | User Profile

[QUOTE=darkstar]My understading has always been that the occult deals with hidden spiritual forces, not necessarily evil ones, but that evil often hides.

Then, of course, there are the Rosicrucians. They often claim to be 'Christian mystics.'

Mystic ultimately refers back to mystery, which in turn refers back to 'from Greek mustrion, secret rite, from musts, an initiate, from mein, to close the eyes.' The Christian mysteries and the occult (same root as 'occluded') stem from the closed eye--the inward eye.

I agree that Christians in America very often use the occult in way such as you indicate. What I wonder is--should they be doing that? My Protestant background tends to be highly suspicious of all the above. I'l leave it at that, not wanting to stir things up on this issue really.

There are many reasons to keep teaching secret. For one, sometimes they keep themselves secret, and require wisdom to unravel. For another, sometimes knowledge is dangerous, especially to the un-informed; or in the hands of the evil-doer.[/QUOTE]

Well there are arguments that this distinction between cult and mainstream, secret and non-secret, is somewhat arbitrary. The pagans considered the Christian practice of Eucharist as highly secretive and mysterious in fsact accusing them of cannibalism etc. And the root of the word "cult" really applies to any religious sect. In America (at least till now) Christianity has been rather public and Wahhabism rather secret. In Saudi Arabia really I'm sure the reverse is true.

wild_bill

2004-06-21 07:26 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]I don't think so. I think its just a symbolic representation of a healthy outdoor lifestyle. Personally, you can keep your clown white faced, ring pierced gothic "beauties".[/QUOTE]

Sun tans are bad for white people. It doesn't matter who you are. Even if one can tan easily, it just degrades the skin and causes cancer in later years. I was one of those who could never tan, only burn. I saw plenty of older people in the south whose faces were very damaged and ladened with discolorations and cancerous lesions from being exposed to the sun.

For what its worth, goth is about the only fashion trend in the past several decades where being very light skinned is actually highly desired. I don't think the white make-up looks good at all and I'm against those idiotic piercings. I'm talking natural white or alabaster skin tone and the old-fashioned clothes and the aversion to nigger music.

Oklahomaman

2004-06-21 07:55 | User Profile

[Quote=darkstar]But consider issues such as the arrangment of Cathedrals around the golden mean, or Pythagorean harmonies. Perhaps the Christians who built in this manner believed there were hidden meanings to the geometries, involving, at the least, hidden features of positive spirtual forces.[/Quote]

The golden mean and pythagorean harmonies have to do with aesthetical theories not spiritual ones. Both more or less relate to eye pleasing proportions in structures.

Mysticism (i.e. contemplation of the unknowable) is something entirely different than the occult (i.e. harnessing hidden preternatural forces). Francis of Asissi(?) and St. Seraphim of Rostov are examples of Christian mystics.

[quote=wild bill]Sun tans are bad for white people. The relatively mild tanning from being outdoors during the long Southern summer is fine. Most of those you talk about with skin damage spend lots of time in an artificial tanning beds year round. That kind of tanning is like cigarettes for the skin.

wild_bill

2004-06-21 08:33 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Oklahomaman] The relatively mild tanning from being outdoors during the long Southern summer is fine. Most of those you talk about with skin damage spend lots of time in an artificial tanning beds year round. That kind of tanning is like cigarettes for the skin.[/QUOTE]

Actually all the people I knew about who had skin problems due to the sun were folks who worked outside alot and spent a lot of time on the water.

Oklahomaman

2004-06-21 14:43 | User Profile

[QUOTE=wild_bill]Actually all the people I knew about who had skin problems due to the sun were folks who worked outside alot and spent a lot of time on the water.[/QUOTE]

The sun doesn't begin to take it's toll on farmers and what not until they're well into their 60's. The effects are different also. Farmer's skin disorders aren't typically malignant. In contrast, I knew of a woman who had cancerous lesions of the maligniant variety on her skin by 32. She had been spending two hours in a tanning bed a week since she was 17.

Walter Yannis

2004-06-21 15:35 | User Profile

[QUOTE=annalex]Where do neo-Conservatism and Satanism meet?[/QUOTE]

It's called the Kabbalah.

Walter

darkstar

2004-06-21 17:09 | User Profile

Your first claim is decidely false, as consultation of any academic work on the golden mean in Greek culture will reveal.

Your second claim is a simple declaration with no support attached. Given your first error, I don't find it particularly credible.

[QUOTE=Oklahomaman]The golden mean and pythagorean harmonies have to do with aesthetical theories not spiritual ones. Both more or less relate to eye pleasing proportions in structures.

Johnathan

2004-06-21 22:30 | User Profile

I think that the article which began this thread is little more than alarmist tripe. However, there IS an undercurrent of White Nationalism in many occult youth communities (especially overseas).

When I was in high school (back around '91-'92), I got way into Aryan themed extreme music (Burzum, Darkthrone, etc.) and it prompted a political awakening in me.

I agree with Michael Moynihan when he called black metal an "atavistic phenomenon".

Personally, I think its a big positive if white kids are listening to stuff like Graveland, Burzum, or other pro-white music that actually posseses artistic merit rather than Judeo-centric misegenationist garbage.

Bardamu

2004-06-22 01:13 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust] Very true, but yes I think Runes are occult. Is that a bad thing?

[/QUOTE]

No, it is not. I was wondering as I know nothing about the Runes. Is it a form of divination like the I Ching?

Oklahomaman

2004-06-22 12:29 | User Profile

[QUOTE=darkstar]Your first claim is decidely false, as consultation of any academic work on the golden mean in Greek culture will reveal.

Absurd. The Golden Ratio occurs so often in nature that it's impossible to claim its origins are exclusively Pagan Greek. In fact, it's down right difficult to make common geometric shapes unrelated to it. It is the most aesthetically pleasing geometric proportion to the human eye.

[URL=http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/emt669/Student.Folders/Frietag.Mark/Homepage/Goldenratio/goldenratio.html]http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/emt669/Student.Folders/Frietag.Mark/Homepage/Goldenratio/goldenratio.html[/URL]

Your second claim is a simple declaration with no support attached. Given your first error, I don't find it particularly credible.[/QUOTE]

Aside, from the fact that you didn't care to document your first claim, Pythagorean harmonies are derivatives of the Golden Ratio.

Oklahomaman

2004-06-22 13:47 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Bardamu]No, it is not. I was wondering as I know nothing about the Runes. Is it a form of divination like the I Ching?[/QUOTE]

It's more like tarot. In general, think of replacing a Tarot deck with stones each having a rune of the Futhwar alphabet engraved upon it. Give some snazzy but ever so vague meanings to each letter and presto you can now tell the future (sort of).

It's the M.O. of a lot of "ancient" religions . They're all derivatives of the same petty occult practices with romanticized charactures of bygone peoples, and modern political concerns thrown in for show and product differentiation. Wicca started out (in 1948 AD, by chance) as a naturist retelling of inaccurate and false Enlightenment accounts of witchcraft, all offered with a psuedo-Celtic twist. They've since started dropping much of the Celtic flavor and are absorbing bits and pieces of other new age religious movements. Many now simply call the false construct Magicka.

Damian1977

2004-07-06 00:34 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]On the American side of things, there may be more to this than what is on the surface:

Following is a thread at LF mentioning Mobus:

[url]http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_history&Number=1486027&t=0[/url]

Other names that seem to come up after some quick googling: Michael Aquino, The Temple of Set, The Order of the Trapezoid

Some creepy stuff, no doubt.[/QUOTE]

Texas_Dissident, that LF thread has a lot of truth package power to it.

Nationalism has been hijacked by Satanism.

"88" was added into the fray by James Rosenberg aka Jimmy Mitchell in 1967, and he skipped out to Israel in 1989, along with John Acord.

It was devious and clever.

The Jewish mobsters created neo-nazism to make nationalism anti-social and repellant to the over 2 million vets of World War Two who were alive in the late 1960's.

It all boils down to one simple question, which is:

Hitler never hawked pictures of George Washington, so why should patriotic folks here hawk pics of Hitler?

Damian1977

2004-07-06 00:37 | User Profile

[QUOTE=weisbrot]"Hendrik Mobus" is the fugitive arrested at the WV home of Dr. William Pierce a couple of years before Pierce died. Correct?

Hendrik Mobus had an international arrest warrant on him for killing a special needs (PC talk for slow or retarded or handicapped) adolescent in a Satanic ritual murder in Germany.

The odd thing was that the National Alliance had police immunity when he was there getting Restistance Records taking off.

Texas Dissident

2004-07-06 01:06 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Damian1977]Nationalism has been hijacked by Satanism.[/QUOTE]

Well, just a cursory look into this subject showed me enough smoke to conclude that there is a fire burning somewhere. Lots of questions without real answers, but I'm not sure how much practical gain there is in trying to connect all the sinister dots. There's plenty of evil in high and low places, for sure.

But if there are any good folks out there who are researching and/or looking into all this (and I know there are a few), then I would please ask them to keep me privately informed with what they might come up with.

PaleoconAvatar

2004-07-06 02:59 | User Profile

A Google search on [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=lavey+%22national+renaissance+party%22]LaVey and the National Renaissance Party[/url] might prove interesting.

LaVey also says in one of his books, Satan Speaks:

Do not mistakenly think that selective breeding is a thing of the future. It has been with us for at least two generations. What is not realized is that the State makes the selection for you. The only reason for the encouragement of race-mixing is not one of equality or idealism. It is to ultimately create a global village of like-minded people who all respond to the same inducements...Diversity is the enemy of herd mentality. Using a veneer of integration and brotherhood, the State insures that all humans are motivated by the same priorities. What an Asian wants, is what a Latino wants, is what an Anglo wants, is what a Native American and African American...all want. As seen on TV. In other words, talk about your roots, dwell upon your heritage, study your ancestry, but live like everybody else. That, in turn, translates to: buy the same products, discard them at the appointed time, and then buy new ones. (p. 177)

A good critique, albeit incomplete since it points the finger at the plutocrats and not those behind the plutocrats who act out of motives of their own (for information on that, one needs K. MacDonald).

Some have said, in many places, that Nationalism has been infiltrated by Satanism, or "hijacked." Of course, others assert that Satanism was infiltrated or hijacked by Nationalism. Which is it? And it raises other questions: How would one be able to tell which has occurred? What effects, positive or negative, on public policy might either permutation have?

More interesting stuff: William Gayley Simpson's book, Which Way Western Man? published by National Vanguard Books (Dr. Pierce), contains much material referenced to Ouspensky and Gurdjieff (I think that's how it's spelled). Also, I've heard references to the National Alliance as an American version of "The Thule Society." More tidbits to munch on.

Valley Forge

2004-07-06 03:20 | User Profile

I personally doubt that Dr. Pierce, a physicist, bought into any occult ideas.

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]I've heard references to the National Alliance as an American version of "The Thule Society." More tidbits to munch on.[/QUOTE]

PaleoconAvatar

2004-07-06 03:49 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]I personally doubt that Dr. Pierce, a physicist, bought into any occult ideas.[/QUOTE]

Depends on what you mean by "buy in" and "occult." The symbol of the organization is a Life-Rune, after all, and its book catalog contains some material that I'm sure some members of Original Dissent would consider "occultic." Guido von List's "Secret of the Runes" comes immediately to mind as being in that catalog.

Below is a "recommended reading guide" Dr. Pierce wrote for the preface of the catalog. Keep in mind that I'm neither hostile to Dr. Pierce nor to manifestations of Indo-European metaphysics. Far from it--I agree with many of the authors and works on this list. I'm just providing information I find interesting, on topics not widely covered elsewhere. It's up to each person who encounters this material to decide what it means to them, if anything. I withhold judgement.

From: [url]http://www.natvan.com/why/whynvb.html[/url]

Why National Vanguard Books?

No group of people can hope to gain control of their destiny unless they possess two essential things: the will to survive as a people and knowledge. The purpose of National Vanguard Books is to provide a reasonably accessible storehouse of knowledge for the English-speaking reader--and a little inspiration as well, in the hope that the inspiration and the knowledge together will strengthen and guide the will of the reader to participate in shaping the future of his people.

If the reader is to have a well-guided will, he needs more than a mere jumble of facts in his head; he must have organized knowledge, knowledge acquired with his purpose in mind. He needs, first of all, an unshakable sense of identity: an understanding of who he is and what his relationship is to the world around him. This can come only from a broad knowledge of the history of his people. He needs to know their most distant origins, their characteristics, their strengths and weaknesses, the ways in which they differ from other peoples. He needs a knowledge of the way they have been shaped by events over the centuries and of the present challenges facing them.

In addition, he should have an acquaintance with the folk traditions, the legends and myths, and the lives of the great heroes of his people. He should be familiar with their natural spiritual inclinations, the directions of their philosophical questing, and their cultural achievements over the ages.

Finally, he must have as intimate as possible a knowledge of the enemies of his people.

Books are a natural source for all of this knowledge. Unfortunately, however, the most valuable books are not readily available. Bookstores are afraid to stock them, and the controlled media will not review them or permit them to be advertised. Many have been purged from libraries by alien groups determined that we not be permitted to regain control of our destiny. Even the universities have practically ceased functioning as disseminators of the knowledge necessary for a proper sense of identity; with an emphasis on "equality" at any cost, the teaching of Western history and culture has become awkward, at best.

Even when books have not deliberately been suppressed, they may be hard to find. Then there are the problems of choice and evaluation. Is a given book on history or race or politics really worth reading? Can its author be trusted? Where there are several choices in a particular subject, which is the book to buy? If each has something valuable in it, which should be read first?

National Vanguard Books exists to overcome all of these problems: It finds, evaluates, and makes available the books containing the facts and ideas essential to the survival and progress of our people. The books in this catalog have been gathered from several countries. Some are published by major firms with New York or London addresses; others come from "underground" printers with very limited distribution channels. Each has been selected because it has something valuable to offer.

The descriptions of the books in the catalog are necessarily brief, but they have been written with the interests of the racially conscious reader in mind. They provide a reliable synopsis of the contents of each book and an evaluation of its salient features.

The prices are as low as National Vanguard Books, which is a non-profit operation, can make them. Many are substantially reduced from the publishers' original prices.

A Guide for Readers

Some books are essential to a basic understanding of the task facing us as a people. Others are also important, but primarily for filling in the details. The following guide is for those readers who want to be sure that they read all of the really essential books, and then as many of the others as their time and pocketbooks will permit, and who want to read them in a logical sequence.

HISTORY -- We should base our study of history on a knowledge of European prehistory. That is, before we begin compartmentalizing into Greek history, Roman history, German history, English history, and so on, we should understand the common racial, linguistic, and cultural roots of all of our Aryan ancestors. We should see the racial and tribal patterns in ancient Europe before we become distracted by national patterns.

The text and maps of McEvedy's Atlas of Ancient History give an excellent, concise overview of European and Middle Eastern prehistory. Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe and The Beaker Folk give a view of pre-Aryan continental Europe, and Prehistoric Avebury and Stonehenge look at the Megalithic Era of prehistory in the British Isles. In Search of the Indo-Europeans provides an excellent introduction to the study of Aryan origins.

After that one can focus on specific areas and peoples. For the Celts there is Chadwick's The Celts. For the Germanic peoples there are Jones' History of the Vikings, The Long-Haired Kings, The Anglo-Saxons, and History of the Goths.

Tacitus' fascinating Agricola and Germania, combined in one volume, and Caesar's Conquest of Gaul give views of the life of both the Celts and the Germans of two millennia ago.

Moving into the historical era, Ancient Greece and The Penguin History of Greece provide a good overview of Hellenic civilization. More details are found in Herodotus' Histories, the books on Alexander's conquests by Arrian and Curtius, the treatments of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides and Xenophon, and Livy's excellent books on Roman history (four of which are listed in the catalog). These can be supplemented by Kitto's The Greeks and Barrow's The Romans, which give excellent character sketches of the two peoples. Plato's The Republic and The Laws give a taste of the Classical-Pagan view of the world -- which in many ways was both more Aryan and more modern than the Medieval-Christian view which followed it.

Essential for the study of the Middle Ages is McEvedy's Atlas of Medieval History. The story of the supplanting of Roman power by German power is told especially well in Bury's Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. A good general survey is provided by Everyday Life in Medieval Times. Dealing with events on the Continent are The History of the Franks, Chronicles of the Crusades, and Bury's History of the Later Roman Empire.

For the current historical era an indispensable reference work is McEvedy's Atlas of Modern History. Thirty Years' War by Langer covers the most important conflict at the beginning of the modern era. And for American history, be sure to read Teddy Roosevelt's magnificent Winning of the West and Myers' gripping account of White heroism, The Alamo.

**LEGENDS AND FOLKWAYS -- Racial identity is based on more than history; the soul of a people is in its legends and myths. For the Greeks and Romans the outstanding legends are Homer's Iliad and Odyssey and Virgil's Aeneid. An excellent collection is Guerber's Myths of Greece and Rome.

For the Anglo-Saxons the great classic is Beowulf. For the Celts The Mabinogion and Rolleston's excellent Celtic Myths and Legends are especially recommended. For the Germans The Nibelungenlied contains the text of the central legend, and the Illustrated Ring of the Nibelung and Lee's Wagner's Ring: Turning the Sky Around provide especially enjoyable synopses of Richard Wagner's operatic interpretation of this great body of Germanic lore.

For the Scandinavians all of the sagas are valuable, as well as The Poetic Edda, Heimskringla, and Guerber's Myths of the Norsemen.

WESTERN RELIGION AND IDEOLOGY -- European religious myths are narrated in many of the books listed in the preceding section. A more scholarly look at the pre-Christian religion of Europe is found in Davidson's two books, Gods and Myths of Northern Europe and Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe; and also in A History of Pagan Europe, by Jones and Pennick.

The modern expression of the Aryan race-soul is given in philosophical-religious terms in Shaw's Man and Superman; in Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Twilight of the Idols and the Antichrist, and Beyond Good and Evil; in Rosenberg's Myth of the Twentieth Century; and in Brown's The Might of the West. The same essence is expressed in political-social terms in Hitler's Mein Kampf. All seven of these books are really indispensable for the reader who wants to understand the vexing problems of this age from an Aryan standpoint.**

RACE: SCIENCE AND SOCIOLOGY -- Eight books on race eminently suitable for beginners are Alien Nation, Paved with Good Intentions, The Dispossessed Majority, Race and Reason, Why Civilizations Self-Destruct, Destiny of Angels, The Ideal and Destiny, and Black Intelligence in White Society. Readers with an interest in the biology as well as the sociology of race will find Rushton's Race, Evolution, and Behavior and Darwin's The Origin of Species useful. Especially good for an understanding of racial differences is Baker's Race.

Valuable works on eugenics and dysgenics are Ancient Eugenics, War and the Breed, and Shockley on Eugenics and Race.

The three volumes of An Atlas of Mankind give a good photographic survey of racial types.

THE ENEMY -- Shahak's Jewish History, Jewish Religion , Goldberg's Jewish Power, and Cantor's Sacred Chain give us the facts about our foes straight from the horse's mouth. Beginners also will find much of value in the little book Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin. Also good for beginners are Jews Must Live, You Gentiles, and Last Days of the Romanovs.

Communism is not the only racially destructive movement the Jews have been behind; feminism (for Gentiles) is another, and two especially good exposures of its fallacies and its pernicious influence on American society are Brain Sex and The Great Sex Divide.

The destructive role of the Jews in psychology and psychiatry becomes apparent from a reading of The Decline and Fall of the Freudian Empire.

The Judeo-democratic destruction of America's colleges and universities is detailed in two excellent books on Political Correctness, Illiberal Education and Prof Scam.

Much information about the parasitic Jewish role in American economic life is given in Den of Thieves and The Predators' Ball.

The role of Zionism in the Jewish drive to destroy America is brought out in Assault on the Liberty, The Samson Option, Deliberate Deceptions, By Way of Deception, and Territory of Lies.

The Jews' claim to immunity from criticism, based on their unique "victim" status -- specifically, on the alleged extermination of 6,000,000 of them in gas chambers during WWII -- is dealt with in Flashpoint, Auschwitz, The Hoax of the 20th Century, Did Six Million Really Die?, and My Banned Holocaust Interview.

Finally, the two video cassettes, The Eternal Jew and The Other Israel, are excellent documentaries which forcefully summarize the entire Jewish question. No patriot should be without them.

THE SECOND WORLD WAR -- The greatest calamity which has befallen our race in modern times was the Second World War. This suicidal conflict led us directly to the racial and moral chaos which is consuming the West today. Every racially conscious White person must understand what that war was really about and what really happened in it.

First, there are five books in the catalog which help the reader to understand why there was a war in the first place and who wanted it. They are Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, Betrayal at Pearl Harbor, Infamy, The Impact of Hitler, and Churchill's War.

There is hardly a need to offer the reader any books about the conduct of the war itself from the American side, because they are so readily and plentifully available elsewhere. But he may find it interesting to see what the war looked like from the other side. For this purpose Degrelle's Campaign in Russia, written by an outstanding warrior who was in the thick of it, cannot be matched. Commando Extraordinary, about the exploits of an extraordinary SS man, also is very good. Then there is the incomparable Wenn Alle BrÃÂ¼der Schweigen, a new edition of the best book ever on the SS. And Memoirs: 10 Years and 20 Days, by Karl Doenitz, Hitler's successor, is excellent.

Finally, there is the question of who the "good guys" and the "bad guys" were: who were the people fighting for the White race, and who were fighting against its interests; who showed a certain degree of decency and humanity in the conduct of the war, and who were the savages? The very disturbing answers will be found in Dachau: Hour of the Avenger, Advance to Barbarism, Terrible Revenge, The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau: 1939-1945, and Gruesome Harvest.

THE SOLUTION: WHAT IS TO BE DONE NOW -- The reader who is concerned about the future as well as the past should now read Mein Kampf again. And he definitely should read The Best of Attack! and National Vanguard Tabloid, which is the best bargain in the catalog. Finally, unless he is a timid or squeamish soul, he should read Hunter and The Turner Diaries. The government and the controlled news media have been raising quite a fuss about the last of these books for the past few years.

Our audio selections, many of them American Dissident Voices broadcasts, are especially good for helping listeners understand the significance of current events and for stimulating their thinking about appropriate action.

The reader who begins a library with the 125 or so books recommended here will have a very valuable source of knowledge and inspiration at hand indeed. He can then pick and choose from among the remaining books in the catalog to continue building his library, his knowledge, and his will to participate in shaping the future for his people.

Damian1977

2004-07-06 05:24 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Well, just a cursory look into this subject showed me enough smoke to conclude that there is a fire burning somewhere. Lots of questions without real answers, but I'm not sure how much practical gain there is in trying to connect all the sinister dots. There's plenty of evil in high and low places, for sure.

National Socialism metal music and hatecore is straight out of the occult.

George Burdi started Resistance Records and he was a Bulgarian gypsy blood-line offspring from Canada.

In other words, he was a Mongolic Turkish eastern European ethnicity-wise.

He later quit Resistance and moved in with a East Asian (India) concubine lady.

Mobus was then brought in by Pierce to get Resistance to rise.

Damian1977

2004-07-06 05:26 | User Profile

[QUOTE=PaleoconAvatar]Depends on what you mean by "buy in" and "occult." The symbol of the organization is a Life-Rune, after all, and its book catalog contains some material that I'm sure some members of Original Dissent would consider "occultic." Guido von List's "Secret of the Runes" comes immediately to mind as being in that catalog.