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"Christian" Identity posts split off from Gerald Smiths"Christian Nationalism" Thread

Thread ID: 14153 | Posts: 16 | Started: 2003-08-19

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Patrick [OP]

2003-08-19 03:17 | User Profile

Tex...

.....Are you aware that Smith would today be labelled "Identity"?

Texas Dissident

2003-08-19 03:27 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Patrick@Aug 18 2003, 22:17 * ** Tex...

.....Are you aware that Smith would today be labelled "Identity"? **

No. He was an ordained minister in the Disciples of Christ.

Patrick

2003-08-19 12:54 | User Profile

.....I've read his writing from CDL, and if they are not considered "Identity", I would have to ask what, then, is?

Texas Dissident

2003-08-19 15:22 | User Profile

Originally posted by Patrick@Aug 19 2003, 07:54 * .....I've read his writing from CDL, and if they are not considered "Identity", I would have to ask what, then, is?*

Christian Identity is a cult with a specific set of beliefs and easily defined by them i.e. "serpent seed" doctrine, British Israelism and so forth. A quick google will tell you all you need to know.

I would not confuse that with nativist sentiments expressed by Christians within denominations whose doctrine is comfortably within historic, Christian orthodoxy.

Patrick

2003-08-19 17:08 | User Profile

”Christian Identity is a cult with a specific set of beliefs and easily defined by them i.e. “serpent seed” doctrine, British Israelism and so forth. A quick google will tell you all you need to know.”

.....Surely you’re aware that the “cult” label comes stright from the adl/splc? While I don’t consider myself “Identity” whatsoever, I do regard much of the Doctrine as accurate, and by definition, their differences belie the label of cult, as they have definitive and vehement disagreements over portions thereof, particularly the dual seedline portion... Have you ever studied the case to be made? If not, I would be happy to make it for you, and yes, I am in agreement; it is purported to be of talmudic origin, but that is not true... the talmudic teaching equated is nothing like the serpent seedline Doctrine, regardless the lies from the antiChrist element... as far as “British Israelism”, it was a Rothschild creation from the beginning, that the reality of caucasian Israel would therby be “leavened; “beware the leaven of the pharisees”...

.....Further, true Christianity is not merely “compatible” with nationalism, but demands such; the entire Scripture is a racial Book, written by, to and about Israelites, (demonstrably, the caucasian race)... The other races are not even mentioned with the exception of where they have come into contact with Israel; are you at all familiar with Richard Kelly Hoskins?

”I would not confuse that with nativist sentiments expressed by Christians within denominations whose doctrine is comfortably within historic, Christian orthodoxy.”

.....I could be mistaken, but if I recall correctly, Mr. Smith had stated that the caucasians were the Israelites of Scripture, as well; I’ll have to check... this is not an exclusionary Doctrine, btw, as there are to be “kings and queens of the ethnos”, and we know that Israel was to be a blessing to all nations, (read: races)...

Texas Dissident

2003-08-19 19:18 | User Profile

Originally posted by Patrick@Aug 19 2003, 07:54 * .....I've read his writing from CDL, and if they are not considered "Identity", I would have to ask what, then, is?*

OK, Patrick. After a bit more googling I can understand your statement better. It seems that our good friends over at the ADL consider any Christian that expresses nationalistic/patriot beliefs as Identity types. So in their eyes, I guess we're all in the same corner.

For myself and my use of the term cult, I use doctrine as a measuring stick and whether or not any one group or individual's doctrine falls outside of historic, Christian orthodoxy. CI beliefs that deny the Trinity or "two seed theory" is most definitely outside the realm of orthodoxy, hence 'cult.' But these questions are probably better addressed in the Christianity forum.

Patrick

2003-08-20 04:02 | User Profile

"But these questions are probably better addressed in the Christianity forum."

.....I'll be waiting on your thread with such questions... ;)

wild_bill

2004-03-04 01:15 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Patrick]”Christian Identity is a cult with a specific set of beliefs and easily defined by them i.e. “serpent seed” doctrine, British Israelism and so forth. A quick google will tell you all you need to know.”

.....Surely you’re aware that the “cult” label comes stright from the adl/splc? While I don’t consider myself “Identity” whatsoever, I do regard much of the Doctrine as accurate, and by definition, their differences belie the label of cult, as they have definitive and vehement disagreements over portions thereof, particularly the dual seedline portion... Have you ever studied the case to be made? If not, I would be happy to make it for you, and yes, I am in agreement; it is purported to be of talmudic origin, but that is not true... the talmudic teaching equated is nothing like the serpent seedline Doctrine, regardless the lies from the antiChrist element... as far as “British Israelism”, it was a Rothschild creation from the beginning, that the reality of caucasian Israel would therby be “leavened; “beware the leaven of the pharisees”...[/QUOTE]

I also have to agree with Tex.

Further, there is very little accuracy in Christian Identity. Search the writings of the Church Fathers and there's nothing remotely like Identity in their teachings. Think about it, if Identity was the "true" Christianity, wouldn't the apostles, their students, and the early leaders of Christianity know about it? They don't, because the whole Identity doctrine is based upon recent and erroneous interpretation of the Scriptures. Even the Identity people themselves argue bitterly over their various interpretations. Yet, the fact remains, it is an obvious and inarguable heresy. And Tex is correct that it is a "cult" - in the same sense as Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses - two other heretical interpretations without even the pretense of Tradition and no historic support for their defining doctrines.

Look, I can sympathize with Christian Identity. People become fed-up with the liberal, anti-white attitudes in many churches, and decide that there has to be a better way. Of course, there is a better way - seek your salvation in traditional Christianity.

-

Gabrielle

2004-06-12 02:56 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Christian Identity is a cult with a specific set of beliefs and easily defined by them i.e. "serpent seed" doctrine, British Israelism and so forth. A quick google will tell you all you need to know.

I would not confuse that with nativist sentiments expressed by Christians within denominations whose doctrine is comfortably within historic, Christian orthodoxy.[/QUOTE]

Texas Dissident, I was brought up with Christian Identity, and we do not believe in any of the above-mentioned thoughts. The majority of Identity Christians do not believe in them, either, although there are several smaller branches that do adhere to such beliefs. We believe that Jesus was God come in the flesh, and that the white race is the Israel people of the Bible. We believe the Germanic people are the tribe of Judah.
The reason that Thomas Jefferson rejected the Bible, as others like him did, was because it was too much for him to believe that God would choose such evil and corrupt people as ‘the jews’ for His holy people. He was right and he was wrong, when you think about it. He knew, like so many other people know in their minds and their hearts, that those ungodly evil ‘jews’ could never be any good to anyone, not even themselves. They all, therefore, just write the whole Bible off – and I can understand it, in a way. But Jefferson could not see the forest for the trees…he noted the problem – the ‘jews’ being chosen by God, when they are such devious, malicious and evil people, but did not realize the real problem was in him believing that they were the chosen ones!

Think about it, Texas Dissedent…do you really think the people we call Israel today are God’s holy chosen ones? Really, how could they be? Did Christ not say something similar to ‘only Israel have I known from all the people of the earth’? Did He not say something like ‘I have only come for the lost sheep of the house of Israel’? What about His promises to Abraham and Sarah? Only the white race has fulfilled those problems! There is no way those promises fit today’s “jews!” Why do you think our people and our president bow to the ‘jews’? They think they are God’s chosen one…our people think they are doing God’s will by giving the jews whatever they want. What is the worst thing people can really say about us CI adherents? We don’t eat pork, we observe the Sabbath, we believe murders, rapist, and kidnappers should be put to death, and we believe the rest of God’s laws should also be followed…what is there bad in that? One thing we are not is a cult; that is a ‘jewish’ (think: today’s people who refer to themselves as jews) term/label used to paint us in the eyes of ‘normal’ society (think: those who are not introduced to our way of thinking save through the biased misrepresentation the media offers)…just as everyone who believes that there are differences betwixt the races is a ‘bigot’, ‘hate monger’, ‘neo nazi’, ‘criminal’, ‘redneck’, etc. (basically the lowest, most vile, violent, uneducated, ruthless and utterly useless persons on earth)…it’s all the same game, and the same tricks are used for both of ‘em…

Texas Dissident

2004-06-12 08:50 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Gabrielle]Texas Dissident, I was brought up with Christian Identity, and we do not believe in any of the above-mentioned thoughts. The majority of Identity Christians do not believe in them, either, although there are several smaller branches that do adhere to such beliefs. We believe that Jesus was God come in the flesh, and that the white race is the Israel people of the Bible. We believe the Germanic people are the tribe of Judah.[/QUOTE]

Gabrielle,

The Holy, Christian Church is the Israel of God.

No thanks on "Christian" Identity. We just don't need it.

Gabrielle

2004-06-12 15:02 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Gabrielle,

The Holy, Christian Church is the Israel of God.

No thanks on "Christian" Identity. We just don't need it.[/QUOTE]

A socio-political-religious organization is not going to be the bride of Christ. That is what ministers say. The Bible teaches that God’s people, Israel - and only God’s people, Israel - will be His bride. If you want a good analogy, compare it to the political /religious issue of the first amendment being about the separation of church and state; it’s just not there – there’s no such thing about separation of church and state in the amendment, yet people repeat and believe it (even the courts!!) just as they do with Christ’s bride being a church. With all due respect, Texas Dissident, I suggest that you take out your Bible and study the subject without a minister to cloud your judgment. ** Ministers** teach that the New Testament is for Christians and the Old Testament is for today’s fake jews, that they say are Israelites. But look at who the Old Covenant (Testament) was made with, and look at who the New Covenant (Testament) was made with.

Old Covenant (Testament):
Rom. 11:29 God promised Abraham unconditional covenant

Gen. 12: 1-3 God promised Abraham he would bless the earth

Gen. 17:2-9 I will establish my everlasting covenant

Rom. 1:5-8 Christ confirmed the promises made to the fathers

Gal. 3:17 God does not change even the Law

New Covenant (testament):

Heb.8: 8-10; Jerm. 31:31 New Covenant with **Israel **

Jerm.31: 33 He would write His law in Israel’s heart

Rom. 11: 26-27 Christ’s covenant to Israel

Think on what Jesus (God come in the flesh) says about Israel:

Matt. 10:6 “ But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

John 10: 14- 15 My sheep hear my voice…

John 10: 26-27 My sheep hear my voice…

Matt. 15:24 Christ came only to the lost sheep of Israel…

And:

Jerm. 33:17 Throne of Israel shall not want for a man…

Ezk. 3:5 Sent only to the house of Israel…

Dan. 9:7 Israel that are near and that are far off…

Heb.8: 8 New Covenant with Israel…

Is. 65:11-15 Israel shall have a new name…

Gen. 49:10 The scepter shall not depart form Judah …

Lam. 2:18 Israel shall not cease as the “apple” of God’s eye….

Hos. 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge …

Very important:

Jerm. 51: 20 Israel is God’s battle axe….

Texas Dissident, I sincerely hope you will ask God for His Spirit, and will at least read these Bibles verses yourself.

The Truth shall set you free….

Gabrielle

2004-06-12 20:07 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Patrick]”Christian Identity is a cult with a specific set of beliefs and easily defined by them i.e. “serpent seed” doctrine, British Israelism and so forth. A quick google will tell you all you need to know.”

.....Surely you’re aware that the “cult” label comes stright from the adl/splc? While I don’t consider myself “Identity” whatsoever, I do regard much of the Doctrine as accurate, and by definition, their differences belie the label of cult, as they have definitive and vehement disagreements over portions thereof, particularly the dual seedline portion... Have you ever studied the case to be made? If not, I would be happy to make it for you, and yes, I am in agreement; it is purported to be of talmudic origin, but that is not true... the talmudic teaching equated is nothing like the serpent seedline Doctrine, regardless the lies from the antiChrist element... as far as “British Israelism”, it was a Rothschild creation from the beginning, that the reality of caucasian Israel would therby be “leavened; “beware the leaven of the pharisees”...

.....Further, true Christianity is not merely “compatible” with nationalism, but demands such; the entire Scripture is a racial Book, written by, to and about Israelites, (demonstrably, the caucasian race)... The other races are not even mentioned with the exception of where they have come into contact with Israel; are you at all familiar with Richard Kelly Hoskins?

”I would not confuse that with nativist sentiments expressed by Christians within denominations whose doctrine is comfortably within historic, Christian orthodoxy.”

.....I could be mistaken, but if I recall correctly, Mr. Smith had stated that the caucasians were the Israelites of Scripture, as well; I’ll have to check... this is not an exclusionary Doctrine, btw, as there are to be “kings and queens of the ethnos”, and we know that Israel was to be a blessing to all nations, (read: races)...[/QUOTE]

Well said, Patrick!

darkstar

2004-06-12 20:45 | User Profile

Traditional Protestant theology teaches us that Jews after the coming of Christ are either those who rejected Christ, or who are their descendents. As Jews, they have no obvious further role to play in God's plan for human salvation.

Pre-Christian Jews are indeed the Chosen people. But what does this mean? Traditional Protestantism teaches us that the Jews were chosen to demonstrate to the world the impossibility of righteousness through mere adherence to a system of positive laws. Christ's grace is required. Thus God sent a savior to the Jews and the Gentiles alike, and many Jews received Christ's saving grace and became Christians. The others, along with their atheist Gentile brethren, continue (as an amalgamated group) to demonstrate the impossiblity of living righteously without Christ.

Being Chosen was a honor for the pre-Christian Jews. It is not an honor for those who reject Christ. And it was never something one would choose for oneself--being made an example of in this way was not pleasant, as the OT attests.

[QUOTE=Gabrielle]Texas Dissident, I was brought up with Christian Identity, and we do not believe in any of the above-mentioned thoughts. The majority of Identity Christians do not believe in them, either, although there are several smaller branches that do adhere to such beliefs. We believe that Jesus was God come in the flesh, and that the white race is the Israel people of the Bible. We believe the Germanic people are the tribe of Judah.
The reason that Thomas Jefferson rejected the Bible, as others like him did, was because it was too much for him to believe that God would choose such evil and corrupt people as ‘the jews’ for His holy people. He was right and he was wrong, when you think about it. He knew, like so many other people know in their minds and their hearts, that those ungodly evil ‘jews’ could never be any good to anyone, not even themselves. They all, therefore, just write the whole Bible off – and I can understand it, in a way. But Jefferson could not see the forest for the trees…he noted the problem – the ‘jews’ being chosen by God, when they are such devious, malicious and evil people, but did not realize the real problem was in him believing that they were the chosen ones!

Think about it, Texas Dissedent…do you really think the people we call Israel today are God’s holy chosen ones? Really, how could they be? Did Christ not say something similar to ‘only Israel have I known from all the people of the earth’? Did He not say something like ‘I have only come for the lost sheep of the house of Israel’? What about His promises to Abraham and Sarah? Only the white race has fulfilled those problems! There is no way those promises fit today’s “jews!” Why do you think our people and our president bow to the ‘jews’? They think they are God’s chosen one…our people think they are doing God’s will by giving the jews whatever they want. What is the worst thing people can really say about us CI adherents? We don’t eat pork, we observe the Sabbath, we believe murders, rapist, and kidnappers should be put to death, and we believe the rest of God’s laws should also be followed…what is there bad in that? One thing we are not is a cult; that is a ‘jewish’ (think: today’s people who refer to themselves as jews) term/label used to paint us in the eyes of ‘normal’ society (think: those who are not introduced to our way of thinking save through the biased misrepresentation the media offers)…just as everyone who believes that there are differences betwixt the races is a ‘bigot’, ‘hate monger’, ‘neo nazi’, ‘criminal’, ‘redneck’, etc. (basically the lowest, most vile, violent, uneducated, ruthless and utterly useless persons on earth)…it’s all the same game, and the same tricks are used for both of ‘em…[/QUOTE]

Gabrielle

2004-06-12 22:38 | User Profile

[QUOTE=darkstar]Traditional Protestant theology teaches us that Jews after the coming of Christ are either those who rejected Christ, or who are their descendents. As Jews, they have no obvious further role to play in God's plan for human salvation.

Pre-Christian Jews are indeed the Chosen people. But what does this mean? Traditional Protestantism teaches us that the Jews were chosen to demonstrate to the world the impossibility of righteousness through mere adherence to a system of positive laws. Christ's grace is required. Thus God sent a savior to the Jews and the Gentiles alike, and many Jews received Christ's saving grace and became Christians. The others, along with their atheist Gentile brethren, continue (as an amalgamated group) to demonstrate the impossiblity of living righteously without Christ.

Being Chosen was a honor for the pre-Christian Jews. It is not an honor for those who reject Christ. And it was never something one would choose for oneself--being made an example of in this way was not pleasant, as the OT attests.[/QUOTE]

darkstar,what Bible do you read?

darkstar

2004-06-12 23:12 | User Profile

Why, Gabrielle, I am partial to the King James version myself. Thanks for asking. Now please do scoot back to your Christian Identities, and try not to work the noggins to hard. OK?

[QUOTE=Gabrielle]darkstar,what Bible do you read?[/QUOTE]

golfball

2004-06-17 17:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=darkstar] .........

Pre-Christian Jews are indeed the Chosen people. But what does this mean? ...... [/QUOTE] It means that you have not read the book of Isaiah to it's completion. Jews lost their "chosen" status as indicated by Isaiah chapters 62 and 65.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and [COLOR=Lime]thou[/COLOR] shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

"[COLOR=Lime]thou[/COLOR]", being Israel

Isaiah 65 1. I Am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. 2. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a [COLOR=Blue]rebellious people[/COLOR], which walketh in a way that was not good, after [COLOR=Blue]their[/COLOR] own thoughts; 3. A [COLOR=Blue]people[/COLOR] that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; 4. Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in [COLOR=Blue]their[/COLOR] vessels; 5. Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to [COLOR=Blue]me[/COLOR]; for [COLOR=Blue]I[/COLOR] am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. 6. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into [COLOR=Blue]their[/COLOR] bosom, 7. [COLOR=Blue]Your[/COLOR] iniquities, and the iniquities of [COLOR=Blue]your[/COLOR] fathers together, saith the Lord, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure [COLOR=Blue]their[/COLOR] former work into [COLOR=Blue]their[/COLOR] bosom. 8. Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy [COLOR=Lime]them[/COLOR] all. 9. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. 10. And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my [COLOR=Lime]people [/COLOR] that have sought me. 11. But [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] are [COLOR=Blue]they[/COLOR] that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for [COLOR=Blue]that troop[/COLOR], and that furnish the drink offering unto [COLOR=Blue]that number[/COLOR]. 12. Therefore will I number [COLOR=Blue]you[/COLOR] to the sword, and [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] did not answer; when I spake, [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. 13. Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] shall be ashamed: 14. Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. 15. And [COLOR=Blue]ye[/COLOR] shall leave [COLOR=Blue]your[/COLOR] name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay [COLOR=Blue]thee[/COLOR], and call his servants by another name:

Words in Blue indicate Jew

Now how many years before Christ was birthed through Mary was this edict made by God through Isaiah?