← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Kevin_O'Keeffe
Thread ID: 14120 | Posts: 19 | Started: 2004-06-10
2004-06-10 10:23 | User Profile
DISCLAIMER: This is NOT an anti-Christian post. Anyone who interprets it that way can feel free to blame me for not being more clear in what I was trying to say....
Despite being an Agnostic who swings back and forth between a tendency towards Atheism and a tendency towards Cosmotheism (which is basically National Alliancese for "pagan"), I have a dark secret: Deep down, I'd actually rather LIKE to be a Christian (not to mention how happy it would make my wife, my parents, my very amicably inclined ex-wife and mother of my son, my in-laws, etc.) But I can't seem to manage it (and I have made substantial efforts in the last 15-20 years, including prayer and the like).
But what I don't have, and what I fear I will never have, is what Christians call "faith." I can read the Bible all the live long day (not that I do, but I have read most of the New Testament, much of it repeatedly, as well as significant portions of the Old Testament), but I never come away from doing so with what the rest of you apparently do, i.e. a belief that what I'm reading is the Word of God, i.e. the Truth. While unlike most people, I'm actually open-minded to the possibility of such super-natural events as spontaneous human resurrection and the like (I know, from direct, personal experience, that there are super-natural, or otherwise difficult to explain forces which exist in this universe), I just don't see how one reads the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and subsequently comes away with the impression that these constitute some sort of accurate representation of the events of approximately 2000 years ago. I mean, how do you know?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I would like to believe in Christianity, I don't feel like its up to me. I feel, rather, that I have no choice in what I believe or do not believe, any more that I have a choice in what I find humorous, erotic, delicious, pungent, beautiful, ugly, etc. These are things that are beyond my control.
So what should I do? Does this just mean that I'm not part of the elect, and that I was put on this Earth for no other purpose than to be damned? How in blazes does one get to become a Christian? I would really like to know. I doubt anyone here can tell me, but this seems like a more fertile place to pose the question than anywhere else I can think of....
2004-06-10 15:01 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]So what should I do? Does this just mean that I'm not part of the elect, and that I was put on this Earth for no other purpose than to be damned? How in blazes does one get to become a Christian? I would really like to know. I doubt anyone here can tell me, but this seems like a more fertile place to pose the question than anywhere else I can think of....[/QUOTE]
I believe that you do have faith. Your heart seems to be in the right place. It appears as though you are struggling with what you intellectualize. You will not be judged for what is in your mind, but what is in your heart and your actions.
Get away from the New Testament. Read the Old. Keep in mind, it was written by Hebrews (and their ancestors), written for Hebrews and written concerning Hebrews. The only time other peoples are mentioned, is when they come in contact with Hebrews. Do not reconcile today's jews with Historical Israelites. Then read the books that [u]used[/u] to be in the bible, but no longer are. Then read the new testament, not including the 4 gospels. Read other books that support the bible. Read books that are about the bible. Then go back and read the 4 gospels. Your perspective will be different.
If possible, get in contact with George Lamsa's material, explaining what the bible told it's original readers, but is not relating to us today. All of his work is based in Aramaic and NOT Greek. Greek is a translation and has skewed the intended meanings, as it translate literally, instead of translating intended understanding. Mostly [u]English[/u] has been an enormous stumbling block for Christians and Non Christians alike. Unfortunately you read and write English. But it can be dealt with.
Keep in mind, you are not reading everything ever said or recorded by Jesus and his disciples. You are reading bits and pieces and highlights. There was not a recorder, or interviewer. God's WORD is infallible, but disciples/people are not. Neither are scribes.
It's sounds like your heart is willing, but your mind is in rebellion. Maybe not. If you are sincere, you will find answers. The situation seems to be that you keep looking in the same places. The answers, for you, are not there. At least you can't see them........................................yet.
When you pray, let it be that God's direction reveal to you. Do not demand that God "perform" in some method of "proof". Rebellion, such as this, will lead you to despair.
I'm sending a pray for you, with this.
2004-06-10 15:47 | User Profile
Christianity starts with the love of God. Everything else follows.
2004-06-10 15:58 | User Profile
Kevin,
I don't want to side-track the thread and I'll work up a better reply later, but I did want to jump in right now and emphatically tell you to disregard brite's post and stay far, far away from anything written by or associated with George Lamsa. His views in no way reflect those of historic, orthodox Christianity and are usually only promoted by cults and aberrant religious groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians.
brite, if you want to dispute that denounciation then take it up on another thread and not this one.
[url=http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=13388]On Faith & Coming to Christ[/url]
2004-06-10 17:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Kevin,
I don't want to side-track the thread and I'll work up a better reply later, but I did want to jump in right now and emphatically tell you to disregard brite's post and stay far, far away from anything written by or associated with George Lamsa. His views in no way reflect those of historic, orthodox Christianity and are usually only promoted by cults and aberrant religious groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians.
brite, if you want to dispute that denounciation then take it up on another thread and not this one.
[url="http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=13388"]On Faith & Coming to Christ[/url][/QUOTE]I never saw a thread in regards to George Lamsa. I posted Lamsa as a suggestion for understanding the language in which Jesus and the disciples spoke. If you do not understand idioms of a language, you cannot understand the written, but intended meaning. If you have a Greek issue, it is yours. There is no reason for Kevin not to read as much as he can and the Holy Spirit will help him discern, if he is open to that.
I have read many of Lamsa's books and listened to his available tapes and have never heard anything that does not conform to traditional Christianity. It must be that there is another George Lamsa, or you have adhered to propaganda, of which, I am not even aware that exists. Lamsa devoted his whole life to translation and nothing else. He apparently has false accusers. I don't believe Jehovah's Witness's one iota and I have never even heard of Christadelphians. None of the material, that I have ever had handed to me, through religious occults, has ever had anything to do with Lamsa. This is obvioulsy a smear tactic.
Anytime someone tries to tell you not to read and check out something for yourself, as you have done to Kevin, that is a big red flag that you are being controlled and manipulated. All material should be open for everybody to consider. The truth does not hide and it will not be completely buried; although it sometimes seems that way.
I read every one of the 21 paragraphs, on Faith and Coming to Christ, that you posted. I don't see anything that sways from my beliefs, or those that appear to be Lamsa's. Your occultic accusations are where? If it helps you any, I am a Mennonite. Look that up and read about it before you liable and slander that religion. I am a traditonal, conservative Christian and resent the fact that you would even remotely include me in a pile of Occultic Garbage. I'll assume it is because you are ignorant of me, since I am new here and your beliefs are easily threatened.
2004-06-10 17:50 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]Christianity starts with the love of God. Everything else follows.[/QUOTE]You are so right.
2004-06-10 18:01 | User Profile
[QUOTE=brite]I am a traditonal, conservative Christian and resent the fact that you would even remotely include me in a pile of Occultic Garbage. I'll assume it is because you are ignorant of me, since I am new here and your beliefs are easily threatened.[/QUOTE]
St. Paul in 2 Timothy 4: 2-5 admonishes Timothy as follows:
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
Further, in Galatians 1:7-9:
Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
So it is certainly no matter of my beliefs being easily threatened, but rather our charge as believers to defend sound doctrine and rebuke anything contrary to it, especially with regards to someone approaching and considering the True Faith, as in this situation.
Perhaps you are not aware of Lamsa's beliefs, so since you insist I will start a new topic on it.
2004-06-10 18:33 | User Profile
And just for the record, although Jesus and his followers may have spoken Aramaic, the New Testament was originally written in Greek.
2004-06-10 19:05 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]DISCLAIMER: This is NOT an anti-Christian post. Anyone who interprets it that way can feel free to blame me for not being more clear in what I was trying to say....
Not at all taken to be, Kevin. I'm thrilled you thought enough to post it here.
I have a dark secret: Deep down, I'd actually rather LIKE to be a Christian (not to mention how happy it would make my wife, my parents, my very amicably inclined ex-wife and mother of my son, my in-laws, etc.) But I can't seem to manage it (and I have made substantial efforts in the last 15-20 years, including prayer and the like).
Well Kevin, the first thing that jumps out at me is your statement that you can't seem to manage it. I would say that is most certainly true. We cannot manage it, not in any way, shape or form. It is entirely the work of God who calls us, convicts us of our sin and graces us with faith in Him and Christ's sacrifice on the Cross to justify us before Him. There is no way we can merit this in and of ourselves, rather it is the free gift of God in His grace and love for us. "For while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
How in blazes does one get to become a Christian?[/QUOTE]
The rest of your comments really boil down to this one question. Thankfully, the Scriptures provide the answer. In Acts 2:37-39, this same question is asked of St. Peter as follows:
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
That's it, Kevin. Lock, stock and barrel. Perhaps you have the same problems I had in that I was caught up in what I needed to do to obtain salvation. If I didn't get some kind of feeling or emotion or change in my lifestyle then I always felt uncertain of my eternal security. But the bottom line is those are all things we try to add to the pure Gospel, confound the simple truth and thereby make it more confusing and difficult than it really is. St. Paul lays it out as clearly as it can be in Ephesians 2:
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
So repent and get baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Then you can rest assured in the promises stated in the above passage.
I would also encourage you to visit a Lutheran church in your area. Meet with and talk to the pastor there. If you are unsure where one is close to you, visit [url]www.lcms.org[/url] and there you will find a church locator where you can search by your zip code.
2004-06-10 20:32 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]St. Paul in 2 Timothy 4: 2-5 admonishes Timothy as follows:
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
Further, in Galatians 1:7-9:
Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
So it is certainly no matter of my beliefs being easily threatened, but rather our charge as believers to defend sound doctrine and rebuke anything contrary to it, especially with regards to someone approaching and considering the True Faith, as in this situation.
Perhaps you are not aware of Lamsa's beliefs, so since you insist I will start a new topic on it.[/QUOTE]I agree completely with the above scripture. I don't think we are at odds here. I am not aware of any of Lamsa's beliefs, if they are non-traditional. Everything I have read from him, makes sense, checks out and is scriptural. In fact, to my knowledge, all of his writings, that I have personally read, support and advocate scripture. The writings of his that I refer to, are just explainations of the language of Christ and the idioms that were translated literally, instead of their meaning. Example: If I wrote to someone that, "my grandmother kicked the bucket", the reader would understand that I meant she died. That "saying" is an Idiom. If that idiom was written down exactly as I stated it and translated hundreds of years later, by a scribe that knew the English alphabet, but did not understand my living language, "expression", the scribe would write it down word for word. Hundreds or even thousands of years later, someone would read those words literally and would not know the true meaning. They would think that my grandmother, physically struck a pail with her foot. They would not understand that "she died". Many, many sayings like this have been misunderstood and translated literally in the bible. The meaning was lost, even if the scribes were holy and well intended. This knowledge can enlighten people on the many "seemingly" contradictory or ambiquious statements in the bible; that are actually very clear, concise and simple. The bible was written for simple people. The fact that we need concordances, study bibles, commentaries etc. prove that something has gone wrong in the transpired books. God's WORD is perfect, Truth is everlasting, but humans are not. Scribes and Scholars are human.
If Lamsa has something else out there, that does not support the God of the old testament and Jesus Christ, and the living Holy Spirit, then I don't and won't have anything to do with it. Even so, it is still wise to read everything you can, if it is for the purpose of really learning. I wouldn't promote everything out there, just because it is in print.
2004-06-10 20:47 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]And just for the record, although Jesus and his followers may have spoken Aramaic, the New Testament was originally written in Greek.[/QUOTE]Well your bible may be and that would explain the need to make corrections and alternative translations.
The English bible was translated from Greek. The disciples and their followers spoke, wrote, or related their stories in Aramaic. If the first time any scripture was written down, wasn't until some Greek recorded it, then there was already meaning lost and scrambled. Barely can two people of the same family write things down accurately and consistently; let alone distant, removed people.
The Aramaic people had the Word of God, long before Western Civilization influenced the bible and they would have taken the Greeks version as pagan and not completely accurate.
If someone followed George Washington around and wrote down what he said and did, wouldn't you think that was more accurate than 20 - 40 - 80 years later, someone writing down what they were told he said and did? Then that writing is recorded in a different language. Then, necessarily, someone comes along and translates it for you, so you can read it. Do you honestly think you have a better understanding of what surpassed? Give me a break!
Some of the Greek biblical scripture wasn't even written until 100 or more years after the facts! It's not that the events weren't already recorded. They were, in the language it all happened in!! The events that were recorded and put in the English bible were the ones that were suspended for a time. That is why there is so much confusion in the bible. You cannot believe that you have a full understanding, or a more complete picture of Jesus and His life than the Aramaic peoples that still spoke and lived His language, and until very recently lived the same life as He did (WWll changed this).
Would you expect that your diary should be thrown away, because 50 years from now, a Hispanic family will record, in Spanish all the things you did in life. Then their greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandchildren will translate it into French and their children will read it and have a better understanding of YOUR life than your own family did?! Wake up!
The Aramaic bible is actually very, very close to the English bible, it only varies in details that "contradict" and "confuse" in English, but stands sensical in Aramaic. If the 2 are so close, with some differences, I would tend to believe the MUCH closer source. Jesus warned about scribes..............................
2004-06-10 20:50 | User Profile
Fair enough, brite. I apologize if my initial post was too harsh. It's just that I hate to see literature or commentary that requires a high level of discernment recommended intially to a brother that is just starting to come into faith.
FYI, I posted the info on Lamsa at the following thread:
[url]http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=14124[/url]
2004-06-10 21:26 | User Profile
Kevin: The longer you go without faith, the harder it is to get it. If you are honest in your question, you'll find it. The thirst for the truth, that question you just asked, is where Christians all start. People think Christians automatically had faith. But, we all start from much the same place, just not at the same time. Bottom line, God's not going to leave you, if you don't leave Him. He'll keep coming back for a while, but if one keeps turning Him away, He takes that as a "thanks, but no thanks". But, if you really want the truth and the benefits of that truth, you'll have it. Sorry, got to go. PM me about this if you want. I've gone through about every phase there is with this issue.
2004-06-10 22:57 | User Profile
I would start out by considering if you belive in God. If you don't, you might think about why not, first.
If you are having trouble with the 'literal' historical-accuracy of Scripture, don't focus upon that. Start out by thinking about just some of the major quasi-historical questions: why could a man named Jesus not have been the Son of God, and why could he have not have died for our sins, and why could he have not founded all morality in the command: "Love God, and love thy neighbor?'
From there, you can consider the need for symbolic representation of the human need for anwsers concerning what cannot be know through science or other purely rational debate, and the way in which the Christian message of sin and redemption through the grace of God offers the most profound description of needs--and our inabilities to meet them on our own. Consider how Christian tradition feeds the soul and allows an opennes to God's will.
From there, one can hopefully see how central aspects of this tradition are threatened by un-belief--particularly by materialism, and capricious egoism at the level of core human relationships, such as the family. Of course, as one moves toward Christianity, not everything which has found its way into this or that 'Christian' tradition will strike one as at all central, so things can get difficult....
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]DISCLAIMER: This is NOT an anti-Christian post. Anyone who interprets it that way can feel free to blame me for not being more clear in what I was trying to say....
Despite being an Agnostic who swings back and forth between a tendency towards Atheism and a tendency towards Cosmotheism (which is basically National Alliancese for "pagan"), I have a dark secret: Deep down, I'd actually rather LIKE to be a Christian (not to mention how happy it would make my wife, my parents, my very amicably inclined ex-wife and mother of my son, my in-laws, etc.) But I can't seem to manage it (and I have made substantial efforts in the last 15-20 years, including prayer and the like).
But what I don't have, and what I fear I will never have, is what Christians call "faith." I can read the Bible all the live long day (not that I do, but I have read most of the New Testament, much of it repeatedly, as well as significant portions of the Old Testament), but I never come away from doing so with what the rest of you apparently do, i.e. a belief that what I'm reading is the Word of God, i.e. the Truth. While unlike most people, I'm actually open-minded to the possibility of such super-natural events as spontaneous human resurrection and the like (I know, from direct, personal experience, that there are super-natural, or otherwise difficult to explain forces which exist in this universe), I just don't see how one reads the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and subsequently comes away with the impression that these constitute some sort of accurate representation of the events of approximately 2000 years ago. I mean, how do you know?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I would like to believe in Christianity, I don't feel like its up to me. I feel, rather, that I have no choice in what I believe or do not believe, any more that I have a choice in what I find humorous, erotic, delicious, pungent, beautiful, ugly, etc. These are things that are beyond my control.
So what should I do? Does this just mean that I'm not part of the elect, and that I was put on this Earth for no other purpose than to be damned? How in blazes does one get to become a Christian? I would really like to know. I doubt anyone here can tell me, but this seems like a more fertile place to pose the question than anywhere else I can think of....[/QUOTE]
2004-06-11 08:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]But what I don't have, and what I fear I will never have, is what Christians call "faith." I can read the Bible all the live long day (not that I do, but I have read most of the New Testament, much of it repeatedly, as well as significant portions of the Old Testament), but I never come away from doing so with what the rest of you apparently do, i.e. a belief that what I'm reading is the Word of God, i.e. the Truth. While unlike most people, I'm actually open-minded to the possibility of such super-natural events as spontaneous human resurrection and the like (I know, from direct, personal experience, that there are super-natural, or otherwise difficult to explain forces which exist in this universe), I just don't see how one reads the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and subsequently comes away with the impression that these constitute some sort of accurate representation of the events of approximately 2000 years ago. I mean, how do you know?
That is a good question Kevin, how do you know? Your question is the same as that Jesus asked his disciples "Who do you say Jesus is?" And their answer is based on the same things we can see and base our judgements on the historical record of those before us, and the evidence of our eyes.
Before you can say you know, you have to say how you can now. And that is the question the gospels at least answered for you. Look at us. Examine the historical record.
Now we don't have the eyewitness accounts the disciples have. But we do have the historical record of the writing of the early gospels themselves. And these tend actually to say that the writers of these events were as much as we can determine pretty much who they say they were.
So you must ask yourself again, who do I say Jesus is? That is what people have tried to determine. And even the hardest skeptics never quite come to a conclusion here. Because if he was not who his disciples say he was, we have no real good answers. And we wonder, why would they make up something like that?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I would like to believe in Christianity, I don't feel like its up to me. I feel, rather, that I have no choice in what I believe or do not believe, any more that I have a choice in what I find humorous, erotic, delicious, pungent, beautiful, ugly, etc. These are things that are beyond my control.
Sure you have a choice Kevin.
So what should I do? Does this just mean that I'm not part of the elect, and that I was put on this Earth for no other purpose than to be damned? How in blazes does one get to become a Christian? I would really like to know. I doubt anyone here can tell me, but this seems like a more fertile place to pose the question than anywhere else I can think of....[/QUOTE]
All I can say is keep searching Kevin. Tex gave some suggestions, and that's all you can do. As Jesus said "Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and we shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.".
2004-06-11 17:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Fair enough, brite. I apologize if my initial post was too harsh. It's just that I hate to see literature or commentary that requires a high level of discernment recommended intially to a brother that is just starting to come into faith.
FYI, I posted the info on Lamsa at the following thread:
[url="http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=14124"]http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=14124[/url][/QUOTE] Thank you, I appreciate that.
My understanding of Kevin was that, he is familiar with scripture and the basic relgious beliefs of his family. I would not have thought of him as a brother just starting to come into faith. Else, I would not have dilineated as I did. After reading what you posted, I can see your point that, discernment is probably not already on his side. Knowledge is hard earned and takes time, discipline, reading and prayer. I may have rushed into too much info.
I was trying to throw a different perspective out there, in a nutshell, for him. It seems to me that his reading the 4 gospels over and over has gotten him nowhere, as he is still looking with the same eyes (perspective). It's hard to "see the forest through the trees", when you keep looking at the same bark, so to speak. Hey, another "idiom"!
I think it's important to know (for some people) the background/setting of the times before Jesus. Then one can more precisely see how the Lord's timing, actions, prophecy fullfilling, ministry has credibility, when He actually came onto the scene.
Lamsa explains many things that have been huge stumbling blocks to Christianity, for countless people. Simple scripture, that when explained, does not contradict, but actually does flow with reason, predictability and with known scientific facts. Many people reject God, or even a creator at all, because of ignorance. The bible does not actually claim, nor is it to blame for many misunderstandings that have come out of ignorance, mistranslation, or unintended literal translation. If more people knew more about what the bible really suggests, rather than supposedly implies, people would be much more open to God as a creator and therefore, as a personal Saviour.
I will check out this website, you have posted. I'll get back with you on that, if it warrants it.
Thank you for reading my post.
2004-06-11 19:02 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Fair enough, brite. I apologize if my initial post was too harsh. It's just that I hate to see literature or commentary that requires a high level of discernment recommended intially to a brother that is just starting to come into faith.
FYI, I posted the info on Lamsa at the following thread:
[url="http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=14124"]http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=14124[/url][/QUOTE]I just looked at the website. It is entirely too long, to systematically read through that and type comments to you. What I will say is this:
Just like you and me, Lamsa is a product of his enviornment/era. Just like the disciples (that differed intensly on doctrinal matters) he has his own ideas and understandings. There are personal differences that I have with Lamsa. In some of his writings he gives his opinion and makes personal statements etc. I don't have the same %100 opinion with anybody, let alone him. So I take that website information with a grain of salt. (That is NOT to say that your posted website isn't important to read, as it is insightful; therefore, at least worth noting.)
What I respect about Lamsa is that, he was a unique and great translator. As is pointed out, at that website, between the lines, Lamsa lets his opinions known. At least in everything that I have ever read of him, he has expressed what was is opinion and not necessarily fact. He is very open and not evasive, from my experience. Maybe in an interview where he was cornered, he seemed evasive or something, as he would have been put on the defensive. I do not know. I have observed enough in life to see how this can play out and be blown out of porportion. Vultures, just like the jews at Jesus' trial. Do you think traditional Christians can't be this way?
The disciples of Jesus were also sincere and very confused, lost, and fighting most of the time. After they were baptized, by the Holy Spirit and went their seperate ways, they seem to "get it together". If you and I were to sit in and listen to their conversations, especially if it had been possible to hear a conversation between Paul and Peter and their disputes of personal indoctrinations, we would probably be shocked. Well I wouldn't be, but it appears as though some people may be. The point is: Our criticisms would be no different than those of Lamsa's critics.
If you think that the 12 disciples and others along the way, had a homogenous understanding of Christ, His position as Son, with God, in Heaven, place in eternity, what rituals were or weren't important, etc. etc. etc., YOU have lots of studying to do. Read about how the bible came about, what else was in there, or maybe even what should have been left in there. All material should be available. Truth does not hide, NOR need protection. Only over time, picking up, throwing out and choosing of books, has the bible become a relatively cohesive understanding of who Christ was, is and will be. There are still discrepancies, or at the very least different focuses and emphasis on all the spiritual and physical/earthly matters. The disciples did not have all the answers when they wrote, or even at their death. In fact, for a long time, they were very immature and petty. Much as you see in churches today. Mankind has not changed. "There is nothing new under the sun." But are they spending eternity in hell? Probably not. I doubt Lamsa is either; therefore, we should hardly condemn him.
There are contradictions and mistakes in the English bible based on the Greek. This is true, regardless of petty semantic issues that someone wants to make, arguing against Lamsa, because his Aramaic and culture changed somewhat, over time. He was still living in the Aramaic like world. Are you suggesting that Greek culture 2,000 years ago, is closer to our culture (American English 21st century)? Therefore, a bible from Greek is more accurate?? His Aramaic, would have been as close as British English is to American English. This is one of the disputes against Lamsa. Lamsa does not have all the answers. Neither do you. Neither do I. He was a translator and that is what I take him for.
If someone wants to criticize and tear down some one else's belief system, they can always make someone look bad. I would imagine that people could tear you down enough that you would not look credible and stand up to intense scrutiny. Should everyone disregard all the good you have said and done?
Many people have come to God, because of Lamsa. Isn't that the point? He was a disciple. He devoted his life to it. He changed my life unmeasurably. If some cult sprung up out of it, does that somehow "undo" what good he has done? Is he to blame? Many occultic groups have holy scripture as their base. Are the authors to blame? Do you have a clue how many people are lost, because of the errors in the bible that you support? MORE PEOPLE THAN THAT ARE SAVED BY IT!! Just looks at the billions of evolutionists! The wide and broad road they are on. They can not reconcile the "seemingly" mistakes in scripture, with what they know and believe. They are lost. My challenge: You get out there and do a better job than Lamsa.
So Lamsa isn't perfect and had some faults. Good grief, look at David. I am assured that he is with God. Do you want to tear him apart? We are not perfect. Christians do cause damage in their lives and in the lives of others, because of their mistakes, because of sin. But because of the worthiness of Christ, we can be found acceptable in God's sight and be rewarded as good and faithful servants.
2004-06-13 08:54 | User Profile
I appreciate all the interest in this thread. I plan on responding to some of what was said after I've had more time to digest it. I will say that I have just about decided to give into my wife's fervent desire that we begin attending church. I have insisted, however, that we attend a conservative sort of church (I believe the prevailing term around here is small-o "orthodox"). To that end, I've done a little research and concluded that the local Missouri Synod church is probably our best bet along those lines. Does that sound about right to the rest of you?
2004-06-14 07:08 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]To that end, I've done a little research and concluded that the local Missouri Synod church is probably our best bet along those lines. Does that sound about right to the rest of you?[/QUOTE]
That sounds wonderful, Kevin, and I'm thrilled to hear it. That's the same decision I made after long study when I finally decided that I could no longer stay within the Southern Baptist Convention.
In case you haven't seen it, you might want to read the article at the following link: [url]http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=13299[/url]
I would also suggest buying and reading the book [url=http://shop.cph.org/Product.pasp?txtCatalog=CPHProduct&txtCategory=&txtProductID=123371]The Spirituality of the Cross[/url] for an easy to understand, layman's presentation of the Lutheran faith.
For myself coming out of a lifetime within the Baptist church, the above book really helped me get my mind around the very different conceptualization of the Faith that the Lutheran Church has.
And lastly, you can always go to the source, which in this case is Luther's writings themselves. Many can be found at [url=http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-home.html]Project Wittenberg[/url]. I would start with the Small Catechism.
Our prayers are with you and your family.