← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Buster
Thread ID: 14068 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2004-06-05
2004-06-05 16:40 | User Profile
[url]http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20040602.html[/url]
Too bad the Pope is deaf, figuratively speaking.
2004-06-08 03:20 | User Profile
the Tridentine Mass in Latin is still here.. it's drawn hundreds of believers. Email me @ [email]rd868@juno.com[/email].. on the Easst Side of Providence. And with FULL APPROVAL OF THE HOLY SEE.
2004-06-08 03:32 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster][url]http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20040602.html[/url]
Too bad the Pope is deaf, figuratively speaking.[/QUOTE] What is Deaf is People listening tto Him, because they are Blinded by Pride and Lust, and Gluttony. The Modern World and all its Enlightenment Brings is Seed of Satan, the Plan he had many Eons Ago. Truth Told 12,000 Years Ago and the Establishment Chooses To Live In Sin and Abhor God.
2004-06-08 03:48 | User Profile
But take Faith. Our President,as He is just George Bush Junior Knows and is not a Fool. He is going to pay his visit to Bohemian Grove in a week but he does not pay homage. He will step away while the world plotters worship Moloch. They will truly sacrifice babies not in mock, but in reality. The truth is hard to accept. Our family and friends will not acccept it. They cannot believe that 911 was a procedure of our own Government. I know it's hard to believe. Just by posting these words, I can be arrested and sent to Guantanamo Bay where I will be torturred for " intelligence " and " security reasons " against the " war on terror ".. well, send your gooks, and you've got a .45 pointing in your face if you open my door. Be an American. Tell THEM WE WILL NOT TOLERATE . Trust in Jesus . He is the only reason there has not been attacks. And even if we fail, and even if I am stormed into and killed, HOLD FAST in the FAITH, because Hundreds of Thousands of First-Born Christians DIED Horrible Deaths to make our minds Free. We don't need to suffer this slavery. We know HOW. This is God's World as long as we Stand, and we have the Holy Birthright. We will not stand Idly By while mass murder upon innocents cries to Heaven.... Take it to the limit if you Choose, Push the Envelope, Force I AM to prove Himself.. go.. take all the Life he created, use your Serpent ability to Lay Waste. Come, Come Kill, Come Kill and Come Enslave . We will be waiting to Overcome You.
2004-06-08 05:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Exelsis_Deo]the Tridentine Mass in Latin is still here.. it's drawn hundreds of believers. Email me @ [email]rd868@juno.com[/email].. on the Easst Side of Providence. And with FULL APPROVAL OF THE HOLY SEE.[/QUOTE]
The loss of the Latin Mass was in direct contradiction to the teachings of VATII, which directed that Latin and latin chants enjoy "pride of place" in Catholic worship.
Walter
2004-06-08 14:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Exelsis_Deo]the Tridentine Mass in Latin is still here.. it's drawn hundreds of believers. Email me @ [email]rd868@juno.com[/email].. on the Easst Side of Providence. And with FULL APPROVAL OF THE HOLY SEE.[/QUOTE]
ED:
I have attended the Latin Mass for 16 years, both approved and not approved. I regard it as my birthright, and I will be judged by God if I am wrong, as will the Pope.
2004-06-10 05:05 | User Profile
is not a big mystery. It's tha mas your mothers and fathers worshiped with. I believe in Vatican II, and I believe in letting go of the Latin Mass as the Only Mass because saving souls is more important, and that can only be done in a language they understand. It makes sense. However, the roots are beyond language, indeed they are in all the various elements of a True Mass. Whether Latin or English or French or Spanish, the Consecration is the Same. However, it is all the other elements, combined with the Legitimacy of the Prefect which bring Presence. Everyone knows the Truth, but Many are Afraid of It. There is no differentation in the Word Of Life. But the Word, Who is Jesus Himself, is NOT Present in many so-called Christian gatherings that they Think He Is. He Is Not There.
2004-06-10 05:25 | User Profile
And that is because of their own sins, magnified by false heritages.. Not one piece of Protestantism has a leg to stand upon. When will they come back and we all ALL can join together.. The amount of lie and innuendo presented to the populace is unforgiveable, granted it is put forth by Satanic so-called Jews. I assure you, I am a REAL JEW. They are Evil ppits of vipers and they control the media and the press. I AM A REAL JEW. Meaning = I AM A REAL HEBREW. The land aartificially created todday called Israel has no connection to " God " whatsoever, and is totally ANTI-LOVE. It needs to be ended. Many of the problems we face is because of the Evil people wwho for their own ggreed, incllluding the Rothschild family, artificially constructed and moved gangs of people from foreeign lands and " called them" Jews. They are no more Jew than a chimpanzee. As a people. We have to put fear in the hearts of the REAL KINGS. They must be targeted and dealt with individually , because if they are not then there is no fear factor. Righteousness will always be on our side and it has a funny way of dellivering the goods. Most of All, we have to STOPP thinking of ourselves as " Americans " . There is no truth in it at all anymore. The same life , at every level from top to least is the same across the World. We all live in this paradigm of bullshit. The REAL moral war is not going to be talked about by the media. THE REAL war for the heart of Mankind How can we tolerrate this hate How can we tolerate the obvious LIES God Damn America. Goid Damn THis Unholy Self-Righteous Falsehood. Let us die, Let at least 50 Million Die And Only after that will anyone here EVER UINDERSTAND THE TRUE MEANING OF LIFE.
2004-06-10 05:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster]ED:
I have attended the Latin Mass for 16 years, both approved and not approved. I regard it as my birthright, and I will be judged by God if I am wrong, as will the Pope.[/QUOTE] Our Holy See, The Pope. Has never took away from the Tridentine Mass. As a matter of fact, He gave that Mass for 50 years to Millions of people and he had at leasst 50 % responsibility for the downfall of Communism, much more than Reagan ever did, and Reagan himself would tell you that. When John Paul II ended Communism in Poland, it was over. Lech Walesa drew his strrength directly from Jon Paul II. NOT REAGAN. The arrogance of the United States is disgusting.
2004-06-10 05:41 | User Profile
It really is truly disgusting !!!!! The Pope is much more the man who ended Communism than Ronald Reagan. I love Reagan, but the media lies again !!! Pope John Paul II almost SINGLE-HANDEDLY ENDED COMMUNISM !!!! THAT THE FACTS !!!!!!!!! Im sorry you jealous so-called Christians who lambaste the Pope and say we cant have mass on sunday, and say we are pagans, you are all freaks, and the only reason you even exist is because King Henry the 8th wanted an heir so bad that he passed through 7 wives.... so there you go .. Glory To England, Not GLory To God, and you better shut up because your faith is a bastard faith.
2004-06-20 10:17 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Exelsis_Deo]is not a big mystery. It's tha mas your mothers and fathers worshiped with. I believe in Vatican II, and I believe in letting go of the Latin Mass as the Only Mass because saving souls is more important, and that can only be done in a language they understand. [/QUOTE]
OK, get rid of the Latin, but keep everything else the same. Why did they make the other changes - like changing the alter? That was where the problem really seems to be.
In Orthodoxy we use the local language or that of the congregation, but the Liturgy itself stays the same as it has for 1600 years.
2004-06-21 04:58 | User Profile
Walter Yannis
[QUOTE]The loss of the Latin Mass was in direct contradiction to the teachings of VATII, which directed that Latin and latin chants enjoy "pride of place" in Catholic worship. [/QUOTE]
Oh come now Walter the writters of VATII knew just what the were doing, it was a modernist takeover and the whole point was to "reform" the church to ways of the world. It was claimed if the church was not changed to fit the modern world, people would fall away from the church. VATII was and is a Failure. The Pope has done nothing to stop the marxist take over of church and he one leaders who pushed VATII. He also helps the muhammudans overrun Europe and tells people to welcome them.
One Bishop who was alive at the time of VATII, said the modernist are destroying the church, he was right them and history has proven him right!
Nothing good can be said of John Paul II or VATII. Even worse many of the churcham make him almost look good.
2004-06-21 05:15 | User Profile
wild_bill,
A good point! [QUOTE=wild_bill]OK, get rid of the Latin, but keep everything else the same. Why did they make the other changes - like changing the alter? That was where the problem really seems to be.
In Orthodoxy we use the local language or that of the congregation, but the Liturgy itself stays the same as it has for 1600 years.[/QUOTE]
I will add not all of Orthodoxy uses the local spoken language, let us not forget Syrian, Old Church Slovonic, and others.
2004-06-21 05:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Faust]wild_bill,
A good point!
I will add not all of Orthodoxy uses the local spoken language, let us not forget Syrian, Old church Sovonic, and others.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but the tradition of the Orthodox Church has generally been to use the local language. Slavonic is used for parts of the Liturgy in some parishes today because some of the people understand it or for historic reasons. Occasionally our choir will sing a hymm in Slavonic. Also, we occasionally get a group of visitors from Europe who's English isn't good, so our Priest will do parts of the Liturgy in Slavonic or their native Slavic langauge as a friendly gesture to our visitors.
I'm not sure what the Syrians do, but I understand that some US Greek parishes do part of the Liturgy or hymms in Greek.
Generally speaking, English is what's used in nearly all Orthodox parishes here in the US. Nobody considers that an undermining of tradition.
2004-06-21 12:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill] I'm not sure what the Syrians do, but I understand that some US Greek parishes do part of the Liturgy or hymms in Greek.
Generally speaking, English is what's used in nearly all Orthodox parishes here in the US. Nobody considers that an undermining of tradition.[/QUOTE] In our parish, much of the chanting and singing is in both Greek and English, and the Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the Scripture readings are all chanted in Greek first, and then English.
I don't understand Greek at all, but I don't have any problem with Greek maintaining an important place in the service. It seems to me that, whenever the Liturgy or Mass is translated, there is the potential for some of its subtle meanings to be changed. Therefore, while I am certainly not against the Liturgy being celebrated in the local tongue, I think that keeping the versions of the Liturgy in the original languages around is healthy, since they provide a firm doctrinal benchmark, against which the new versions can be compared.
When you stick with the original language of St. Chrysostom, or with the original Latin, then you know the priest can't be taking you too far afield. My parish is lucky, in my opinion, because our priest is really old-school.
2004-06-21 14:03 | User Profile
wild_bill,
I was agreeing with you that langauge is not the real problem, I was just adding that some Orthodox Churches also do part of the Liturgy in dead langauges. [URL=http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ocslavonic.htm]Old Church Slavonic[/URL] like Latin has not been spoken in 1000 years. The Greek Liturgy is done in an Archaic form of Greek from not spoken Greek. Syrians with good reason do want to say the Liturgy in Arabic.
Also I will add the it is not as if English was not spoken in Roman rite churches in America before Vatican II. The Liturgy of the mass was in Latin but English used also used. The real problem with Vatican II was idea that church should change in order to fit in better in the "Modern World."
2004-06-22 07:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Faust]Walter Yannis Oh come now Walter the writters of VATII knew just what the were doing, it was a modernist takeover and the whole point was to "reform" the church to ways of the world. It was claimed if the church was not changed to fit the modern world, people would fall away from the church. VATII was and is a Failure. The Pope has done nothing to stop the marxist take over of church and he one leaders who pushed VATII. He also helps the muhammudans overrun Europe and tells people to welcome them. [/QUOTE]
The question is whether the seeds of the terrible abuses in Liturgy were contained within the Vatican II documents themselves, or whether it was a problem of implementation by folks who chose to ignore parts that they found inconvenient. I am generally of the latter opinion, a view I think the excerpts from [URL=SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM ]SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM [/URL] (Vatican II's key document on the Liturgy) support.
The excerpts below make clear to me at least that the liturgy was to remain basically the same, but that the Council Fathers thought that expanding the use of the vernacular was permissibe, but only after careful consideration and express permission from the local bishop. The hierarchy that implemented these documents got the emphasis exactly back-asswards. The Tridentine Mass was supposed to be the normal liturgical form, along with pipe organs and Gregorian Chant at the heart of worship, with a little CAREFUL experimentation with the vernacular and other musical forms allowed. Instead, they chose to throw away everything associated with the Latin rite, and impose instead their kitschy version of greeting card religiousity.
Which isn't to say that I don't have real problems with other aspects of Vatican II's documents (I do) but in regard to the terrible liturgical abuses I've endured since childhood, I see nothing in the documents themselves that support them.
Walter
[QUOTE]36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.
These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.
Translations from the Latin text into the mother tongue intended for use in the liturgy must be approved by the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned above. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]101. 1. In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office. But in individual cases the ordinary has the power of granting the use of a vernacular translation to those clerics for whom the use of Latin constitutes a grave obstacle to their praying the office properly. The vernacular version, however, must be one that is drawn up according to the provision of Art. 36. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful. [/QUOTE]
2004-06-24 23:15 | User Profile
Walter Yannis,
The documents Vatican II did not support much of what done but I think that is often only because they were fearful of the reaction if they put their real plans down on paper. Vatican II was an attack the traditions of Rome Catholic Church. No they did not come out say it in writting. But that was the what they were doing.
Oddly at Vatican II, John XXII(XIV) had put his foot down a good number times as many wanted to do things even more radical than he could stand. Vatican II was a failure, it was said change was needed to keep people from failing away from the church, but Vatican II speeded up the numbers failing away from the church.