← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Frederick William I
Thread ID: 14063 | Posts: 28 | Started: 2004-06-05
2004-06-05 06:46 | User Profile
Sorry to say it, but I had to ban Il Ragno for a couple of days. Seems he was getting really heated enough on the "bury the hatchet" thread in the cyber politics forum, heated enough to start making an issue of my seperate moderator (this) and posting names. Which I don't really think is called for, but could vaguely be considered similar to a few more othe of the IP issues we've discussed here. Anyway I told Il Ragno if he wanted to start revealing IP addresses and handles two could play that game, but you know Il Ragno is perfectly up for a fight. I banned him for two days, I'll let Tex sort it out when he gets back.
This is a free country, and there is nothing that prevents us from using the internet to attack not just ones ideas, but one's handles, research each others IP addresses, and even ones real names, but I don't think this forum should be the place to do it, or moderators should have to put up with this kind of attack for all the extra work we do for the forum.
This is the first time I've used this function personally, so I'm learning a bit how it goes. Apparently one cannot sent PM's to bannees, so I'll have find some other way to communicate with Il Ragno.
2004-06-05 12:17 | User Profile
Fred,
Yes, when someone is removed one loses the capabilty to communicate with that person. I see there is a thread started by Zuts alor aka il ragno. Did you move that here?
2004-06-05 13:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Fred,
Yes, when someone is removed one loses the capabilty to communicate with that person. I see there is a thread started by Zuts alor aka il ragno. Did you move that here?[/QUOTE]
Affirmative.
I've got to go for now. I did respond to Il Ragno over at the Phora. If anyone wants to reopen this here you might quote this link for now. I figure eventually since IR is tireless we'll have to respond in some way, so I thought you should know what's going on.
[url]http://www.thephora.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10154[/url]
2004-06-05 13:34 | User Profile
Thanks. Will do.
2004-06-05 20:23 | User Profile
I'm assuming all this took place on the 'buring the hatchet' thread in Cyber Pol. ??
I was away from the computer from about 2200 last night 'til 1300 today. Whatever happened there in between those times must have been deleted cause I have no idea what the hell happened by reading it now.
2004-06-05 20:47 | User Profile
Please note: I want everyone here to understand that if we were together somewhere I would be talking to you in a normal tone of voice as I would someone in a library or bar. This is not directed against anyone personally.
Max,
I hate to type this, but I think you made a mistake pulling Il Ragno off the ban list mainly because you undermined Daveââ¬â¢s authority on the board and to a lesser degree mine as well. I have no doubt you had what you considered good reasons for this, but we canââ¬â¢t go around undoing what someone else has done, particularly in this case. It was for two days only. Jason could have dealt with it when he came back and adjudicated this disagreement between you and Dave. While I have looked at the thread I am not sure exactly what might have been removed in order to render an informed opinion, which is a lesser reason I didnââ¬â¢t attempt to seconded guess Dave. As a rule I try to stay off threads like that because I have seen what they deteriorate into. That thread looked like something from ââ¬ÅFreeââ¬Â Republic. You are right. The ââ¬Åfreeperââ¬Â types are laughing at us and I am afraid this gives them even more mirth.
============================ Jason,
I had a few of suggestions I was going to put down here, but that was before what appears to me the fiasco on the ââ¬ÅIl Ragno bannedââ¬Â thread in the ââ¬ÅMemberââ¬â¢s Only Forum.ââ¬Â Instead, I can reduce them to one- close the board down and if you feel up to it restart it again under a new name with rules that are to be strictly enforced. I would select a small cadre of posters to use to start it up that you can trust and reflect the values you hold. Call it for a lack of a better term a ââ¬Åhealthy collective.ââ¬Â
As I write this I sadly believe that this is a lost cause primarily because of the friction between the Nazi and their sympathizers verses those who are not Nazis and to a lesser extent between Christians and Non-Christians. Unfortunately, when a bulletin board is set up where one can have a serious discussion about the Jewish problems you attract all sorts of people, such as agent provocateurs, Nazis, religious zealots and assorted lunatics. I am convinced that when it comes to trying to have a dialog with authoritarian types that it is impossible because the two worldviews are irreconcilable. You are always going to have the Nazi types (Iââ¬â¢m using the term in a general sense here) trying to dominant the board with idiocy such as some of the recent stuff posted about Hitler. While I share a lot of their admiration for most of what Hitler did I also recognize that he is a part of history now and while he might be fine for Germany I donââ¬â¢t want those ideas to ever gain ascendancy in this country. Unfortunately, we have a number of folks who seem to think they can resurrect the Third Reich in America. I regret that I played a role in encouraging these people. Even agreeing with them about the Jewish problem isnââ¬â¢t enough to make them happy.
As for religious differences I am not sure what to do there, being a deist myself. I do know this. I havenââ¬â¢t had near the problems that others have most likely due to the fact that I rarely go on those threads as well. My view is that religion is a personal thing and should be kept that way as much as possible. The question is how to do that without compromising oneââ¬â¢s values. I donââ¬â¢t think it helps when we have Protestants and Catholics at each otherââ¬â¢s throats over the true faith. I have had to get on a few fanatics about that in the past. As for this business with Walter I am not sure all that has transpired there. Some of what I read makes me think that he is kidding or maybe trying to piss off some of the pagans. The problem with the non-believers and believes can really get out of hand as we know all too well. I wish more people were like me in this regard. Fanatics on both side need to be brought up short. Despite all of this I believe that this is a solvable problem whereas the other one canââ¬â¢t be solved.
There is a bright side to this. With no board to post on they wonââ¬â¢t have anyone to bitch about and at anymore. Iââ¬â¢m sure that ââ¬ÅFreeââ¬Â Republic, VNN, and etc. would be more than happy to take them in. I know they will consider themselves blameless.
2004-06-05 21:24 | User Profile
Thanks Ryan.
I agree with you regarding Max's action. When you banned Fade, to be quite honest I wasn't in total agreement with that, but I corresponded with you privately, saw that you felt strongly about it, stood by your decision and subsequently took the public heat for it. That's the way senior admins are supposed to do things.
As to your recommendations to just shut the whole thing down, well I do have to leave to go out of town tomorrow morning, so maybe I will just shut it all down at least until I come back Monday night. I hate to let our enemies think that they were able to beat us, though.
2004-06-05 22:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]I hate to let our enemies think that they were able to beat us, though.[/QUOTE] I second that Tex.
2004-06-05 22:35 | User Profile
Well, that's it. I don't have the time or inclination to suffer through hours of trying to explain and sort through all of this.
All the threads have been deleted and I will put up a note on IR's farewall opus that if anyone wants to discuss any of this that they send me an email to the siteadmin email address. If anybody posts anything related to this controversy, then please do me a favor and delete it. You can send them a PM telling them to address all questions on the matter to my siteadmin email. If they persist, then suspend their account.
If you don't feel like you can do this then let me know. As I stated, I will be gone from tomorrow morning until Monday night for a funeral. If there are obnoxious members who persist, then at least suspend them until I can address it when I get back. Enough damage has been done with this and I've had enough.
IR will be banned in short order and wintermute has been purged of the board. I have my personal reasons for doing the latter.
Thanks for all of y'all's help here.
Best regards,
Jason
2004-06-05 22:44 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Well, that's it. I don't have the time or inclination to suffer through hours of trying to explain and sort through all of this.
I sympathize with you here 100%
All the threads have been deleted and I will put up a note on IR's farewall opus that if anyone wants to discuss any of this that they send me an email to the siteadmin email address. If anybody posts anything related to this controversy, then please do me a favor and delete it. You can send them a PM telling them to address all questions on the matter to my siteadmin email. If they persist, then suspend their account.
If you don't feel like you can do this then let me know. Not an easy thing on a free speech board, but I wil understand and try to do.
As I stated, I will be gone from tomorrow morning until Monday night for a funeral. If there are obnoxious members who persist, then at least suspend them until I can address it when I get back. Enough damage has been done with this and I've had enough.
I will try very hard to do this, considering I haven't helped make it easy on you so far. You need to get away.
IR will be banned in short order and wintermute has been purged of the board. I have my personal reasons for doing the latter.
Thanks for all of y'all's help here.
Best regards,
Jason[/QUOTE]
Have a good trip Jason
Best Regards, and again, my Condolences
Dave
2004-06-05 23:22 | User Profile
You're welcome, Jason.
I thought about telling those guys that I initiated Fade's removal, but didn't because I didn't wish to convey the wrong impression. I know how some of those folks are. If I had I would have answered them in this way. I simply would have stated that Fade had done a number of disruptive things back in the autumn of last year and I had no intention of spending time going through the archives for examples for most of it was deleted. Instead, Fade made a permanent impression on me-- a bad one. I notice that some of the folks most upset were camp followers of people like Leland and Fade.
I too, will do what I can when I see it. Have a safe journey.
2004-06-05 23:44 | User Profile
Thanks, guys. All this saddens me a great deal, but in some ways I guess it was just inevitable at some point.
For the record I wasn't going to ban ragno until I checked my email and read a scathing message he sent me about 0300 this morning. That's the time I guess all this really started going and I wasn't even on-line then. But it was enough to let me know he had to go.
In fact, now I'm beginning to question whether I should leave up his opus. He didn't give me any benefit of the doubt at any time.
2004-06-06 00:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Thanks, guys. All this saddens me a great deal, but in some ways I guess it was just inevitable at some point.
For the record I wasn't going to ban ragno until I checked my email and read a scathing message he sent me about 0300 this morning. That's the time I guess all this really started going and I wasn't even on-line then. But it was enough to let me know he had to go.
In fact, now I'm beginning to question whether I should leave up his opus. He didn't give me any benefit of the doubt at any time.[/QUOTE]
I certainly understand your lack of wishing to service Il Ragno's incomparable vanity one more time. But since you said you'd leave it up, I would personally. It certainly highlights Il Ragno's differences with this board, so no one could claiming there were just personality issues, and what personality issues there are do shine through. And we do need help in running this board, and the ability to get people to sympathize with us and do their part in running this thing.
It may be painful to leave up, but if it sheds us of Il Ragno it was worth it.
I might mention another reason we need help in running this board is that we do leave parts of ourselves out there, to people I thought were our friends. I admire your willingness to put out your personal name Jason, but I am reminded at times like these how this can be used against you sometime. If you don't recall, I did reveal FWI to Madrussian, whom I privately suspect of leaking this to Il Ragno, so he could use it against us. MR seems unusually apologetic and friendly about the matter on the thread. Which let's face it, cost us another day of mediating against the effect of Il Ragno's rages. I recognized the liability as soon as Il Ragno started harping about handles and IP's, and he obviously sensed something. Privately he acts like a mafiosi going after a target when he senses something, although he puts on a genial public air of sorts.
2004-06-06 03:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Max,
I hate to type this, but I think you made a mistake pulling Il Ragno off the ban list mainly because you undermined Daveââ¬â¢s authority on the board and to a lesser degree mine as well. I have no doubt you had what you considered good reasons for this, but we canââ¬â¢t go around undoing what someone else has done, particularly in this case. It was for two days only. Jason could have dealt with it when he came back and adjudicated this disagreement between you and Dave. While I have looked at the thread I am not sure exactly what might have been removed in order to render an informed opinion, which is a lesser reason I didnââ¬â¢t attempt to seconded guess Dave. As a rule I try to stay off threads like that because I have seen what they deteriorate into. That thread looked like something from ââ¬ÅFreeââ¬Â Republic. You are right. The ââ¬Åfreeperââ¬Â types are laughing at us and I am afraid this gives them even more mirth. [/QUOTE]
There does seem to be some confusion still over why I banned Il Ragno last night. Let me clarify, and repeat to you guys what I forwarded to Tex.
[quote=Il Ragno][quote=Okiereddust]Hey I noticed you made some remarks about me over in the cyber politics section. The kind of remark that involves IP addresses and board handles.
We're both bright people, and have our own sources of information, which we can all figure out. There have been some heated remarks between you and me, but they haven't gone beyond certain limits and certain rules. Let's keep it that way.
You're as stupid as I thought.
By deleting the message, now I know you're FW1. Whereas previously I had an inkling.
Better get the delete button ready. Mr Triskelion-fooled-us-all is about to get his clock cleaned.
I wasn't sure what he had in mind, but it sounded pretty threatening at the time. Rather transparently he was going to use the FWI thing as a device to attack the board and Tex, which of course is what he did, and after sifting through the long "burying the hatchet thread, I did not want to have to sift through another day of interminable board attacks, especially if Tex was gone and could not respond. Banning at the time was really an instantaneous decision.
Fortunately Jason was around, and actually Max's tactics of addressing it on the Phora and sending a temporary olive branch to Il Ragno worked out better than anything I could have done. But it is fortunate Jason did show up, unlike I thought he was goingto be able too, and addressed it the way he did. I am glad too see Il Ragno not around to continually stir the waters for whatever. When you do address these things it is very good if you address them permanently. If Il Ragno had decided to pull another caper instead of taking his grand bow and Tex wasn't around, it could have put me in an ackward situation if I was needed to take some more moderator action, as the other moderators were not supporting me.
It was a weakness, but one I think that turned out quite a bit better than I'd really expected. Me and Max both saw something and did something right away about, even if each of our actions might have been slightly hasty ib retrospect, and addresses the problem by our actions. That's what is needed I think. It would be nice though if Jason could takke some longer vacations without worrying about the board or having to check in all the time. That's where I think its important that we moderators check with each other and discuss our actions with each other when major isues arise.
2004-06-06 14:58 | User Profile
Dave,
Thanks for the clarification. I am curious about one thing. How did the business about other accounts come into play and did Il Ragno explain why it is different for him to have two accounts but not you? If you can explain this in a nutshell that would be fine. If it is convoluted then don't worry about it. Maybe we can learn something from all of this that will be of use in the future. I swear, some of this stuff reminds me of the mess that Eschoir and Notinconcert was involved in and constantly trying to stir up.
I would definitely leave Il Ragno's writings intact. While I think that he can get out of hand that doesn't detract that he is a fine writer possessing a very sharp mind.
2004-06-06 16:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Dave,
Thanks for the clarification. I am curious about one thing. How did the business about other accounts come into play and did Il Ragno explain why it is different for him to have two accounts but not you? If you can explain this in a nutshell that would be fine. If it is convoluted then don't worry about it. Maybe we can learn something from all of this that will be of use in the future. I swear, some of this stuff reminds me of the mess that Eschoir and Notinconcert was involved in and constantly trying to stir up.
Here's where he talks about it.
[url]http://forums.originaldissent.com/showpost.php?p=84155&postcount=79[/url]
One thing I was going to bring up though with IR, but I didn't cause this thing did catch my by surprise, I didn't expect IR to be unbanned so quickly and that I like to think about things a little bit, is that IR simply wasn't telling the truth about Zut Alors being his only handle. I'm almost certain that he admitted to Fliege Hollander (however you spell it) officially too. And I thhink he had some others as well. But that gets into the whole thing about moderators getting into IP addresses and that sort of thing. I would have to do some research to find IR's own statements.
I'm tired of this whole thing now, discussion on this board is shut down anyway, everybody says its not a big deal except Ruffin and VF, and I don't want to just keep this fued going on the Phora thread for now. But if Tex comes back, I'll try to have that statement and others. It would be good when reopening discussion on this here, on the more current topic of the IR banning generally. It does show that we are actually very fair to IR and use our mmoderator powers very sparingly.
I would definitely leave Il Ragno's writings intact. While I think that he can get out of hand that doesn't detract that he is a fine writer possessing a very sharp mind.[/QUOTE]I don't think Tex is becoming any JR yet, but I can see how administering a board can move you to it. But I doubt he will. IR has so many posts, you'd just have to delete the whole thing, and that would screw up a lot of the threads.
2004-06-06 17:07 | User Profile
Okay, Dave.
Speaking for myself the matter is closed.
Max,
Jason noted above somewhere that he had a personal reason that he didn't want to go into for removing Wintermute.
2004-06-06 17:25 | User Profile
Max,
I'll have to do some research on Walter for some examples of this. When I get them I'll send him a note about it, seeing how I gave him more credit than I should have. Fair is fair and he shouldn't be stirring up trouble either. It's bad enough without people trying to refight WW II, without folks trying to refight the 30 Years War. This was obviously on some of the threads I either didn't read or started to, only to realize that it was going to turn into a cyber food fight.
2004-06-06 20:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]I agree that some of the Nazis and Nazi sympathizers were stirring up trouble on this forum, but in that regard (baiting, name-calling, makig intentionally provocative and over the top posts) they could hardly be any worse than Walter. If the goal is just to remove people who cause friction, then I can't see any justification for removing il ragno and wintermute while allowing walter to post..... Fair is fair.[/QUOTE]I don't see that you are reading me and Tex's explanations. The reason IR was banned had nothing to do with his posts, it had to do with his private messages to me and Tex, which I felt were bringing up IP issues. If he was going to start making issue of FWI, then I thought I should have the right to do the same on his different handles. But for that I preferred Tex's permission and help to either dig up those old posts or reference the IP info.
Tex similarly banned him for a private message. Maybe you should ask him for a copy before you jump to conclusions.
2004-06-07 07:08 | User Profile
What I can't understand is why he should only get a "warning" while others get banned.
That's a fair question. I really don't know, seeing how I stated above that I generally don't waste my time on threads like that (There is no profit in them for me) and haven't seen these antics of Walter's.
[QUOTE]So I take it that you haven't seen his 'lose the losers" signature?[/QUOTE]
I vaguely remember seeing it. Usually, I don't pay attention to those things. In Walter's case my dealings with him have been about Putin and Russia more than anything else. If he said specifically you should be banned, then of course I don't agree with it. That's idiotic and I'm surprised he would type that.
2004-06-07 16:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]That's a fair question. I really don't know, seeing how I stated above that I generally don't waste my time on threads like that (There is no profit in them for me) and haven't seen these antics of Walter's.
I vaguely remember seeing it. Usually, I don't pay attention to those things. In Walter's case my dealings with him have been about Putin and Russia more than anything else. If he said specifically you should be banned, then of course I don't agree with it. That's idiotic and I'm surprised he would type that.[/QUOTE] Walter apparently "resigned" although that thread may have been deleted.
[url]http://thephora.org/showthread.php?threadid=10154&perpage=15&pagenumber=12[/url]
2004-06-08 07:33 | User Profile
[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]wintermute PM'd me about this Raina thing a couple of days ago. I wrote a response to him and got the message "no such user." Did he ask to have his account deleted or was he banned? If the latter, why?
[/QUOTE] Max, I know you're trying to play a concilitaory role in this over at the Phora, but what do you think of Wintermute's latest spiel over there, and does it answer your question of why Tex wanted to delete all his threads? It seems to me he has gone psycho, looking for all the old threads where he was insulted and digging up dirt. At least that's a glimpse of his personality I am seeing.
[url]http://thephora.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=109454#post109454[/url]
I frankly was shocked. This was the fellow Tex once that so highly of he encouraged me to make personal contact with. Now he os going psycho with some line about how "I deceived him" and "he didn't know who he I was", cause he didn't have all my comments accounted for when I spoke to him. He makes IR look like a bastion of rationality.
Reading these guys know in fact makes me rethink the whole value of the internet and forums like this. As a minimum I think clearly Tex has done the right thing in restricting the search function to senior members. After all, 99% of the research on forums is probably done to dig up dirt on people.
2004-06-16 21:11 | User Profile
Is Max still with us?
Anybody seen him logged-in?
2004-06-16 22:26 | User Profile
I haven't seen him since our last exchange on the 7th.
2004-06-16 22:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]I haven't seen him since our last exchange on the 7th.[/QUOTE] Max was always had an adversion to personal strife and lowbrow stuff. He hated the anti-Freeper sites like Arator's, he hated SFF when it started to go downhill. He even hates the Phora - he posted a message there saying he thought everyone there except his close OD buddies would go on the ignore list.
As much as this thing bothered him, having to choose sides, I'm not sure if he's going to stay with us, or if what we're really looking for anymore. I haven't sent him a personal message for quite a while - I might have to do that.
2004-06-17 00:59 | User Profile
I might add that my feeling after being subtly asked to leave the Phora (I'll find the link) is that relations between the two groups are bad enough that it is difficult for people closely involved in the thing to participate both places. I'm not sure exactly how things got so bad so fast for what was once a fairly close-knit if factious group. We know IR and WM were trying to exacerbate things out of their own vendeta's of course, and succeeded. But I do feel that Max feels put upon for a number of things going on that he didn't undertsand, was not privy to, and was not in tune with your religious thinking Tex as I was.
The number of things that started to go on unilaterally that he didn't agree with (Bannings of the Euro Cabel, WM posts purged, IR banned - which he trongly disagreed with, along with the "Christian Nationalist" tangent all seems to differentiate him from us and make him sympathize with them, to the point where I think its hard for him to explain to the Phora people, who he does seem closely attached to now.
2004-06-18 06:20 | User Profile
I just wanted to add one thing upon reflection.
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]The number of things that started to go on unilaterally that he didn't agree with (Bannings of the Euro Cabel, WM posts purged, IR banned - which he trongly disagreed with, along with the "Christian Nationalist" tangent all seems to differentiate him from us and make him sympathize with them, to the point where I think its hard for him to explain to the Phora people, who he does seem closely attached to now.[/QUOTE]
To which I might add his statement at the Phora.
If you wish to post again at OD you can, and I will make clear on that board that if IR and other regulars are banned or treated unfairly, I will go too. I'm all for removing crude posts, disruptors, and trolls (and have been doing so myself), but when two parties are having a shouting match banning one of them out of personal preference is intolerable.
I'm really sorry to see Max go, but it appears to me that in making that statement he sort of made a promise to the people at the Phora that he feels compelled to keep. Clearly the Phora is now vociferously anti-OD and and-God now, at least at this present moment, and there doesn't seem a good way he can remain in the good graces of the people at that board, while being a moderator in good standing over here.
I can understand Max's irritation in a way. He seemed to wants us to go out of our way to placate IR and the pro-VNN crowd, and out our weariness, we were finding it more difficult to do so. The IR thing hit both me and Tex at a bad time, when we didn't have time to give the thing it needed. But come to think of it, we never did. These guys like spoiled children demand all our energy.
2004-06-18 10:22 | User Profile
189th Anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo.