← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · il ragno
Thread ID: 13951 | Posts: 12 | Started: 2004-05-29
2004-05-29 13:20 | User Profile
[B]Army Says Friendly Fire 'Probably' Killed Tillman[/B] Ex-NFL Player Died Serving in Afghanistan By JAY COHEN, AP
FORT BRAGG, N.C. (May 29) - Former pro football player Pat Tillman was ''probably'' killed by friendly fire as he led his team of Army Rangers up a hill during a firefight in Afghanistan last month, the U.S. Army said Saturday.
''While there was no one specific finding of fault, the investigation results indicate that Corp. Tillman probably died as a result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces,'' Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensington Jr. said in a statement released by the Army Special Operations Command.
The statement said the firefight took place in ''very severe and constricted terrain in impaired light'' with enemy combatants firing on U.S. forces.
An Afghan military official told The Associated Press on Saturday that Tillman died because of a ''misunderstanding'' when two mixed groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion following an explosion.
The Afghan official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also contradicted U.S. reports that the American soldiers had come under enemy fire.
The Army has said the enemy shooters had pinned down other soldiers when Tillman was killed on April 22.
Tillman's family declined to comment.
The report of friendly fire was first reported by the Arizona Republic and The Argus of Fremont (Calif.) on Saturday.
''It does seem pretty clear that he was killed by friendly fire,'' Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., a member of the House Armed Services Committee, told the Republic. Franks said his panel was alerted to the information by the Army's Legislative Liaison Office.
05-29-04 0815EDT
[I]Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. [/I]
2004-05-29 13:25 | User Profile
Every 'hero' story from there is debunked as a criminal waste of life.
2004-05-29 13:44 | User Profile
And the Jorge Boosh crew knew that all the time. Fox news knew it, Limbaugh and all the rest, or was this another of many Boosh secrets? They took that man's death and made it a political pawn for them. I believe that was one of many times Bush screwed up and needed political cover. Wasn't that story when the coffin pictures came out and people started realizing it wasn't so good over there? That's when those hypocrits were accusing the woman who took the pictures of exploiting the deaths for political purposes. Those twisted scum-eating dogs were doing it even worse, and from the White House. This is so damn typical of that bunch of freaking liars. Even Mort Kondracke winces at the secrecy of this bunch. Shifty and secretive.
Oops, I forgot. Boosh never knew. He just found out when we did, when it came out in the Arizona Republic. Had he known, he certainly would have been forthcoming(sarcasm). I'm be so glad to get that snake out of that high grass, and all of those other vipers of the GOP/neocon central. I think I've had enough of the Booosh family "leadership".
2004-05-29 16:43 | User Profile
Based on this new information, Private Tillman should be stripped of his Silver Star, as well as his posthumous promotion (whoop-te-doo) to Corporal.
2004-05-29 20:44 | User Profile
Tillman 'probably' killed by friendly fire
However, Afghan official contradicts U.S. reports American soldiers had come under enemy fire
Former Arizona Cardinals player Pat Tillman, 27, died in Afghanistan in April. The Associated Press
Updated: 4:20 p.m. ET May 29, 2004Pat Tillman was probably killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan after a U.S. solider mistakenly shot at an Afghan soldier in the former NFL playerââ¬â¢s unit, military officials said Saturday.
Tillman walked away from a $3.6 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals to join the Army after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Previous military statements suggested he was killed by enemy fire.
According to an Army investigation, Tillman was shot to death on April 22 after the friendly Afghan soldier in Tillmanââ¬â¢s unit was mistakenly fired upon, and other U.S. soldiers then fired in the same direction.
ââ¬ÅWhile there was no one specific finding of fault, the investigation results indicate that Cpl. Tillman probably died as a result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces,ââ¬Â Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr. said in a brief statement to reporters at the Army Special Operations Command.
Kensinger said the firefight took place in ââ¬Åvery severe and constricted terrain with impaired lightââ¬Â with 10 to 12 enemy combatants firing on U.S. forces.
But an Afghan military official told The Associated Press on Saturday that Tillman died because of a ââ¬Åmisunderstandingââ¬Â when two mixed groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion following a land mine explosion.
Speaking on condition of anonymity, the Afghan official said, ââ¬Å(There) were no enemy forcesââ¬Â present when Tillman died.
Kensinger, who heads Army Special Forces, took no questions Saturday morning after reading the Army statement. An Afghan Defense Ministry official declined to comment on whether enemy forces were present, while U.S. military officials in Afghanistan referred all queries to Fort Bragg.
In Washington, Pentagon officials refused to comment on the Afghan report.
According to the Armyââ¬â¢s investigation, Tillmanââ¬â¢s team had split from a second unit when a Ranger whom the Army did not identify fired on a friendly Afghan soldier, mistaking him for the enemy.
Seeing that gunfire and not realizing its origin, other U.S. soldiers fired in the same direction, killing Tillman and an Afghan soldier. Two other Rangers were wounded in the gunfight.
ââ¬ÅThe results of this investigation in no way diminished the bravery and sacrifice displayed by Cpl. Tillman,ââ¬Â Kensinger said.
Tillman, 27, left his position as a starting safety for Arizona to join the Army following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. He was posthumously promoted from specialist to corporal and awarded a Purple Heart and Silver Star, one of the militaryââ¬â¢s highest honors, awarded for gallantry on the battlefield.
Thousands of people, including celebrities and politicians, attended a memorial service at Sun Devil Stadium earlier this month. At a memorial service in his hometown of San Jose, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., called him ââ¬Åa most honorable man.ââ¬Â
ââ¬ÅWhile many of us will be blessed to live a longer life, few of us will ever live a better one,ââ¬Â said McCain, who spent 5ý years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.
A woman who answered the phone Saturday at the home of Tillmanââ¬â¢s uncle, Hank Tillman, said the family would have no comment on the findings in the Armyââ¬â¢s investigation.
At Fort Bragg, an officer with the 30th Engineer Battalion said the circumstances of Tillmanââ¬â¢s death do not change his heroism.
ââ¬ÅA lot of us sacrifice something, but no one sacrificed as much as he did to join,ââ¬Â Sgt. Matt Harbursky said as he prepared to play a round of golf at the base course. ââ¬ÅAnd it doesnââ¬â¢t really matter how he was killed, itââ¬â¢s sad.ââ¬Â
Prior to Saturday, the Armyââ¬â¢s most complete account of Tillmanââ¬â¢s death came in his Silver Star citation, which said he was killed after his platoon split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was in charge of the lead group.
When the trailing group came under mortar and small arms fire, the Army said Tillman ordered his team to return.
ââ¬ÅThrough the firing, Tillmanââ¬â¢s voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground,ââ¬Â the citation said. ââ¬ÅOnly after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished.ââ¬Â
The Afghan official gave the AP a differing account, based on his conversation with an Afghan fighter from the group that was separated from Tillmanââ¬â¢s. The Afghan soldier said the two groups drifted apart during the operation in the remote Spera district of Khost province, close to the Pakistani border.
ââ¬ÅSuddenly the sound of a mine explosion was heard somewhere between the two groups and the Americans in one group started firing,ââ¬Â the official said.
ââ¬ÅNobody knew what it was ââ¬â a mine, a remote-controlled bomb ââ¬â or what was going on, or if enemy forces were firing. The situation was very confusing,ââ¬Â the official said.
ââ¬ÅAs the result of this firing, that American was killed and three Afghan soldiers were injured. It was a misunderstanding and afterwards they realized that it was a mine that had exploded and there were no enemy forces.ââ¬Â
Tillmanââ¬â¢s platoon was in the area as part of an effort called Operation Mountain Storm, in which they were charged with rooting out Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.
Tillman became the first NFL player to die in combat since the Vietnam War. He was one of about 100 U.S. soldiers to have been killed in Afghanistan since the United States invaded in 2001.
ââ¬âââ¬âââ¬â
Associated Press writer Stephen Graham contributed to this report from Kabul, Afghanistan and AP Military Writer Robert Burns contributed from Washington.
é 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten
Perhaps it is all a big lie. With this sorry excuse for an administration I can understand why folks would be sceptical with anything they say. Nobody seems to know what happen here. That includes Limbaugh who tried to plant in his listeners' minds (sic) that "terrorists" killed him.
2004-05-29 21:36 | User Profile
It took them almost a month to figure that out? So American.
2004-05-30 02:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Robbie]It took them almost a month to figure that out? So American.[/QUOTE]
No, it's not so American. That's the whole problem.
The escalating spin put out by the civilian administration controlling the military leads to some wild speculation, at least on my part.
What if: - Tillman (who refused to talk about his decision to enlist) was offered, say, $5mm to become the Jimmy Stewart of the Fight Agin' Turrurism? - His gung-ho attitude/selective treatment/general demeanor led to some friendly fire of the sort seen in Vietnam directed against the Collitch-Boy Lieutenants? - An invaluable double-PR opportunity was seen to be too good to let pass? - The Wolfowitzim decided that paying off on the $5mm hero bonus along with the risk of loose talk was too much of a risk?
Any of this seems at least plausible in the current environment. Of course, the same crusading media that waited six-seven weeks to expose this tragedy would immediately let us know if any shenanigans of this sort were taking place...
2004-05-31 08:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=weisbrot]No, it's not so American. That's the whole problem.
The escalating spin put out by the civilian administration controlling the military leads to some wild speculation, at least on my part.
What if: - Tillman (who refused to talk about his decision to enlist) was offered, say, $5mm to become the Jimmy Stewart of the Fight Agin' Turrurism? - His gung-ho attitude/selective treatment/general demeanor led to some friendly fire of the sort seen in Vietnam directed against the Collitch-Boy Lieutenants? - An invaluable double-PR opportunity was seen to be too good to let pass? - The Wolfowitzim decided that paying off on the $5mm hero bonus along with the risk of loose talk was too much of a risk?
Any of this seems at least plausible in the current environment. Of course, the same crusading media that waited six-seven weeks to expose this tragedy would immediately let us know if any shenanigans of this sort were taking place...[/QUOTE]
Sounds right to me.
This sure has the trappings of a PR campaign gone wrong.
2004-05-31 13:49 | User Profile
Very plausible theory about the FF cause, if his brother wasn't there to witness. I doubt money was involved, Compulsive/obsessive egotism is a huge motivator for many, a drive to be god-like. Looks like PT might have had that. Folks who aren't used to the military way and are narcissitic tend to go nuts if they get any authority in their position. What's worse, if the guy and his brother were both strutting around like fresh GI Joe peacocks in their berets.
And, even more if the guy was making rash decisions that were dangerous. If emotion-driven and not really tuned into the military way or tactics, that was high risk to those under his command. I think most there accept dying in combat...but never to just have life thrown away in a senseless meat grinder. People resist that, anyway they can.
Being in command of someone is a special trust with people's dignity and lives. Contrary to what outsiders think, military command isn't like having slaves. It's not for amateurs or control freaks. Some commands may be run like that, but not out in live fire. Command is like a marriage without the sexual part, and those in charge are "man of the house". If betrayed or treated recklessly, it's often taken very personally.
It's so silly how the non-initiated see comand and military orders in a chlid-like way. "Gee, you get to tell them ANYTHING, and they have to do it? Cooool." Not exactly.
2004-05-31 16:32 | User Profile
[QUOTE=All Old Right]Very plausible theory about the FF cause, if his brother wasn't there to witness. I doubt money was involved, Compulsive/obsessive egotism is a huge motivator for many, a drive to be god-like.
snip [/QUOTE]
Maybe he was looking for the big payout on the other end, with huge media sweetheart contracts.
It would have propelled him to superstardom. As it was, he would have been a rich football player. But this thing could have made him a cross between Rambo and Elvis in uniform. I'll bet his agent had dollar signs in his eyes.
My work has brought me into the day-to-day functioning of a PR department of a couple of the Forturne 500 companies. Sufficie it to say that it ain't pretty.
It's all illusion.
If you see a CEO on the cover of Business Week and full page spreads of him guiding his company's ship bravely past the rocks of financial ruin, then you can know for certain that it was ordered special and paid for in cash.
It's all planned.
You know, despite the fact that I know this, that I've seen it with my own eyes, I still fall into the illusion that I somehow know the people that I see on television, or think that I'm reading real news with reliable information.
I still catch myself empathizing with guys like Tillman, buying the whole media story on some level at least. Feeling my heartstrings tugged. Man, television is a powerful thing.
Walter
2004-05-31 17:51 | User Profile
Could have been money involved. It's just that he had turned down big deals in the past, so I read. You're right, show business has its draw for some. Then, there's the hero obsession, when a person draws to danger with fantasies of being heroic.
I always go for the simplier possibility. Maybe he came into special forces with zero experience, all charged up, strutting like a rooster on meth, and usually making shitty decisions that drew fire and trouble. Have we heard much form grieving comrades?
Every time someone has told me about a wonderful Christian and "just a great guy" he has proven the opposite to me...some hypocrite. No exception so far. More often than not, the world praises the shiny wrapper of a person...not what's inside. The fakes always have really shiny wrappers.
Not that I'm not sad about this guy. He made a real bad choice. He wasn't a poilitician, a brain surgeon, or a soldier. He was a football player. A man does have to know his limitations. Excellence in one field often does not carry over to others.
2004-06-01 19:24 | User Profile
Contra his golf buddy, how he died does matter. It matters most.
Regarding his death as just sad rings the Big Chill bell in Dogville
Ignoring how he died ââ¬â apparently killed when two segments under his command separated and were startled into firing on each other after a land mine exploded between them ââ¬â leads to a reversal of what the words he is said to have died for mean: honor, decency, freedom, democracy. It leaves a shiny gloss, as when illusion has replaced reality. Or, as it is taught elsewhere, when the wages of sin are chalked up to ââ¬Åmistakesââ¬Â. (ââ¬Ëfriendly fireââ¬â¢, if you love hell anyway)
If the facts are as stated, he was a ââ¬Åhot headââ¬Â: too ready to ââ¬Ågo offââ¬Â, lose his cool; give over to high-anxiety-reaction (hysteria). In less stilted terms, up-tight, too gung-ho-for-heroics (ââ¬ÅNowââ¬â¢s My Time!ââ¬Â) A nagging suspicion sets in that if it wasnââ¬â¢t accidental no one was going to say anything. In other words (back to the stilted version) a certain part of them, and ourselves, sees this as justified. This would be the psychic domain, or ââ¬Åsystemââ¬Â Freud labeled ââ¬ÅUncââ¬Â (ââ¬Åunconsciousââ¬â¢ ââ¬â 1900, ch. 7), created by repression of such contents that are incompatible with the conscious point of view. The desire to see Tillman as heroic rules the conscious perspective. The cynical accusation, that he cashed in a lucrative NFL contract for later advancements -- virtual assurance of a Rambo movie, if not some pocket change now, supplied by compelling pro-war propagandists, and what that indicates: a total selling out of American patriotism to the image of Hero Savior of Iraq ââ¬â must be split off, not dealt with, because it is too unsavory to contemplate for very long. Solution? -The Red Pill Hero gloss.