← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Johnathan

Pagan Roots of National Socialism

Thread ID: 13891 | Posts: 99 | Started: 2004-05-26

Johnathan [OP]

2004-05-26 05:48 | User Profile

I'm not trying to start a hostile debate here, but something that is troubling to me is when "scholars", newfangled National Socialists, or anybody for that matter claims that the Third Reich and its values and program were rooted in European Christianity. I was reading Carl Jung's essay about "Wotan" today, in which Jung attributes the success of Adolf Hitler to a latent atavism in the German volk that had been dormant after a millenia of Christendom. Jung seems to propose that the "Wotan" archetype was awakened in the 20th Century all across the Germanic world and that the German Volk reverted to a form of cultic warrior heathenism.

I don't see how the NS worldview can be reconciled with the Christian faith. Nor do I understand why people try to "Christianize" what the movement represented. The fact that Hitler invoked the language of Christianity is, IMO, a matter of context. A 1,000 year old faith tradition cannot be cast off outright, especially if the bulk of your constituents are yeoman farmers. Ultimately, National Socialism was supposed to evolve into a Pan-Germanic, quasi-pagan Imperium. What are your thoughts?

Valley Forge

2004-05-26 17:28 | User Profile

It can't be reconciled with the Christian faith.

Nazis and Christians have fundementally irreconcilabe world views.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean we can't work together on limtited tactical basis to fight the common the enemy that hates us both.

Unfortunately, there are "purity" extremists on both sides that don't want to see that happen (Linder/Fleming, etc.)

Which is why I believe this entire paleocon v NS debate on OD has been misguided -- a giant red herring.

The issue isn't which side has the correct fundamental world view. The issue is WHICH SIDE USING TACTICS that make the most sense in the context in which we find ourselves.

I say the Neo-Nazis are, because they make naming the Jew a fundamental part of their activism.

Nevetheless, be that as it may, as as Christian, I will never worship my race over God, wheras Nazis prefer to worship their race. Obviously, the two sides willl never agree on this point, but that shouldn't be a show stopper when our mutual survival is st stake. Agreement really isn't necessary for us to work together in my opinion as long as we agree on some broad fundemantals:

Opposing Jewish influence (because their influence is the biggest immediate problem for both of us)
White separtism in some form

As long as Christians and Nazis can agree on that, we should be able to work together until we achieve the 14 words and go our separate ways.

Johnathan

2004-05-26 17:48 | User Profile

I am really not a Christian...and in all honesty (this may sound silly to you guys) I got turned onto White Nationalism when I was in college in the early 90s. I listened to a lot of the National Socialist metal bands that came out of Norway around that time and developed an interest in esoteric, racialist theories. I pretty much became sold on the NS interpretations of Francis Yockey and Vidkun Quisling. I really don't see any utility however, to collaborating with Lincoln Rockwell style "hollywood Nazis". These people are a real liability, IMO, and most of them are riff raff. Besides, any grown man who dresses up in the military attire of 60-70 years ago is mentally disturbed.

First and foremost, NSim places a premium on elitism and Natural aristocracy...the "organizations" in the USA that purport to be NS are in reality social clubs for maladjusted clowns that I would not want to live next door to. I'm a lifelong, northern urbanite, so maybe this has something to do with my perspective.

Hence, depite my ideological leanings, I feel that getting behind the Christian/Paleo camp is in the interests of all racialist, regardless of their political stripes.

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]It can't be reconciled with the Christian faith.

Nazis and Christians have fundementally irreconcilabe world views.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean we can't work together on limtited tactical basis to fight the common the enemy that hates us both.

Unfortunately, there are "purity" extremists on both sides that don't want to see that happen (Linder/Fleming, etc.)

Which is why I believe this entire paleocon v NS debate on OD has been misguided -- a giant red herring.

The issue isn't which side has the correct fundamental world view. The issue is WHICH SIDE USING TACTICS that make the most sense in the context in which we find ourselves.

I say the Neo-Nazis are, because they make naming the Jew a fundamental part of their activism.

Opposing Jewish influence (because their influence is the biggest immediate problem for both of us)
White separtism in some form

As long as Christians and Nazis can agree on that, we should be able to work together until we achieve the 14 words and go our separate ways.[/QUOTE]

Walter Yannis

2004-05-26 18:41 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Hence, depite my ideological leanings, I feel that getting behind the Christian/Paleo camp is in the interests of all racialist, regardless of their political stripes.[/QUOTE]

Whoa!

Finally somebody who agrees with me!!

Welcome, Jon-a-thannnnn!!!!!

Walter

friedrich braun

2004-05-26 18:45 | User Profile

The ideals of National Socialism will never die and are timeless -- many aspects of it are applicable to a North American, etc. context.

[QUOTE=Johnathan]I am really not a Christian...and in all honesty (this may sound silly to you guys) I got turned onto White Nationalism when I was in college in the early 90s. I listened to a lot of the National Socialist metal bands that came out of Norway around that time and developed an interest in esoteric, racialist theories. I pretty much became sold on the NS interpretations of Francis Yockey and Vidkun Quisling. I really don't see any utility however, to collaborating with Lincoln Rockwell style "hollywood Nazis". These people are a real liability, IMO, and most of them are riff raff. Besides, any grown man who dresses up in the military attire of 60-70 years ago is mentally disturbed.

Hence, depite my ideological leanings, I feel that getting behind the Christian/Paleo camp is in the interests of all racialist, regardless of their political stripes.[/QUOTE]

Walter Yannis

2004-05-26 18:50 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Current93]Heinrich Himmler was a Catholic his whole life. Rudolf Hess a Christian. Adolf Hitler a Roman Catholic.

You get the idea.

All this hocuspocus that the National Socialists were occultic pagan devil worshippers was cooked up by Jews.

If you swallow that Adolf Hitler was a Faustian figure then don't forget to take the tour at Auschwitz.[/QUOTE]

Have you read this [URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1929631065/qid=1085584285/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/103-8792480-3461465?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]book[/URL]?

Our own dear Friederich Braun thinks it's authentic.

I haven't read it, but it purports to be a stenographic record (basically, a live transcript) of AH's most personal conversations.

The review I read (I haven't read the book) contained several quotes indicating that AH's public stance on Christianity was completely at odds with his private beliefs (which held Christianity in contempt).

What is your view on that?

Walter

edward gibbon

2004-05-26 19:05 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Johnathan]I'm not trying to start a hostile debate here, but something that is troubling to me is when "scholars", newfangled National Socialists, or anybody for that matter claims that the Third Reich and its values and program were rooted in European Christianity. I was reading Carl Jung's essay about "Wotan" today, in which Jung attributes the success of Adolf Hitler to a [COLOR=Red]latent atavism in the German volk that had been dormant after a millenia of Christendom[/COLOR]. Jung seems to propose that the "Wotan" archetype was awakened in the 20th Century all across the Germanic world and that the German Volk reverted to a form of cultic warrior heathenism.[/QUOTE]Spengler observed that after hearing thunder, a Sicilian peasant retreated to the religion his ancestors had practiced prior to Christianity.[QUOTE]Hence, depite my ideological leanings, I feel that getting behind the Christian/Paleo camp is in the interests of all racialist, regardless of their political stripes. [/QUOTE]I concur. The sainted Ezra Pound noted it took him late into his life to understand why French free-thinkers were not disturbed by Jesuits teaching their children.

Johnathan

2004-05-26 19:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Current93]Heinrich Himmler was a Catholic his whole life. Rudolf Hess a Christian. Adolf Hitler a Roman Catholic.

You get the idea.

All this hocuspocus that the National Socialists were occultic pagan devil worshippers was cooked up by Jews.

If you swallow that Adolf Hitler was a Faustian figure then don't forget to take the tour at Auschwitz.[/QUOTE]I don't think that National Socialists were "devil worshippers", but you cannot ignore the fact that the NS worldview places a premium on the pagan warrior ethos. Look at the sig-runes...look at Wewelsburg castle...look at he SS weltenschaung. These are not Christian accoutraments. NS ideology itself is guided by a Nietzschean ethos and places a premium on racial loyalty. I behoove you to find me a scriptural source for the underpinnings of National Socialist ideology, because its absurd to suggest that there is one.

Just because NSDAP didn't "persecute" Christians does not mean that it was a Christian party.

friedrich braun

2004-05-26 19:23 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Just as with "Table Talk" these are about as valid as 'Hitler's Diary' which David Irving was among the first to expose.[/QUOTE]

Please see, [url]http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Hitler/Law200603.html[/url]

Johnathan

2004-05-26 19:35 | User Profile

I don't remember anything about runic iconography in the bible: [url="http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/text12.htm"]http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/text12.htm[/url]

I want you guys to understand...I'm not suggesting that the NSDAP was "anti-Christian" or "occult-based". I'm suggesting that Jung was correct and that the party represented an atavistc phenomenon that prompted the German volk to invoke heathen imagery and embrace heroic barbarism.

I don't understand why some people seem to argue incessantly that Hitler, Himmler, Goring, etc. were at mass every Saturday and loved Jesus. It's just not true.

friedrich braun

2004-05-26 19:48 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Johnathan]I don't remember anything about runic iconography in the bible: [url="http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/text12.htm"]http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/text12.htm[/url]

I don't understand why some people seem to argue incessantly that Hitler, Himmler, Goring, etc. were at mass every Saturday and loved Jesus. It's just not true.[/QUOTE]

Alright. What's your point?

And don't forget that Jung (himself German Swiss) wrote that short article just after the war in a state of bitter depression -- hence, his statements and analysis should be taken with a grain of salt.

Johnathan

2004-05-26 19:54 | User Profile

[QUOTE=friedrich braun]Alright. What's your point?

1) National Socialism will never be a Christian ideology. No matter how much CI adherents want it to be.

2) National Socialism produced an atavistic response in the German volk that transcended borders and even continents.

We must consider both of these things when we discuss the future of White Nationalism.

Johnathan

2004-05-26 19:57 | User Profile

[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]Hitler makes his views on Christianity and religion in general clear in Mein Kampf, where he writes that "religion is necessary because the masses do not consist of philosophers...for the masses it serves as the only source of a moral or ethical sense." The implication was that Hitler himself was not a believer, but recognized the importance of religious myth in maintaining the social order.

According to Albert Speer's diaries, Hitler often expressed regret that Christianity became the dominant religion of the German people. Apparently, Hitler would have preferred a more warlike religion such as Japanese emperor-worship, various pagan faiths, or even Islam in the palce of Christianity. However (unlike Bormann and other explicit anti-Christians) Hitler respected Christian traditions culturally and was careful not to alienate his faithful constituency.

So while Hitler was not a believing Christian, he was not a crusading atheist or pagan either.

BTW, Jonathan, whose portrait is that in your avatar? Is that Alfred Rosenberg?[/QUOTE] I think you summed it up better than I did. Thanx.

My avatar is Vidkun Quisling.

Valley Forge

2004-05-26 22:41 | User Profile

So we should rally behind the camp the is largely afraid to discuss one our biggest problems (Jewish Influence)?

The Christian/paleo camp has the right image. But that alone will not move our side forward.

And unfortunately, the people who are most willing to talk about the main problem have the worst image.

Maybe this is why we're not getting anywhere.

If the Christian/paleo camp would adopt the Nazi tactic of naming the problem, we could wed the right message to the right image.

Hence, depite my ideological leanings, I feel that getting behind the Christian/Paleo camp is in the interests of all racialist, regardless of their political stripes.[/QUOTE]

friedrich braun

2004-05-26 22:50 | User Profile

[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]I've always found CI hard to take seriously. Do these people really believe that not only Jesus but Moses, Solomon, and other Old Testament figures were "Aryan" or "Nordic"?

The small grain of truth behind CI nonsense is that indeed many of today's Jews are not Isralites but descendants of Turkic Khazars. But those Jews who are descended from the Israelites, the Oriental and Sephardic Jews, are ironically even more "semitic" and probably have far less European blood than the Khazars. Perhaps the CI's would care to go on an archaelogical dig in the Holy Land and take a look at the skulls they find. You can be sure that those skulls would look more like the skulls of Arabs and Jews than like the skulls of Romans or Norsemen.[/QUOTE]

I don't find CI any more ridiculous than the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-day Saints or that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) was taken up to Heaven on a winged steed (Pegasus?).

All these things have to be accepted on faith.

friedrich braun

2004-05-27 01:14 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Johnathan]I don't remember anything about runic iconography in the bible: [url="http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/text12.htm"]http://www.portal-ns.com/thecensure/text12.htm[/url]

I don't understand why some people seem to argue incessantly that Hitler, Himmler, Goring, etc. were at mass every Saturday and loved Jesus. It's just not true.[/QUOTE]

BTW, in the present occupied, Orwellian, anti-German Bastardstate (aka the German Federal Republic) runes are prohibited by law.

All Old Right

2004-05-27 01:28 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Current93]

All this hocuspocus that the National Socialists were occultic pagan devil worshippers was cooked up by Jews.

[/QUOTE] You ever been to the theology section at Stormfront?? I'd hardly call that a strong traditional Christian presence, and they praise NS all of the time.

In fact, it's often a hostile and angry presence, all the time praising NS. Not exactly creating a positive image for NS.

James Henly Thornwell

2004-05-27 01:48 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]So we should rally behind the camp the is largely afraid to discuss one our biggest problems (Jewish Influence)?

The Christian/paleo camp has the right image. But that alone will not move our side forward.

And unfortunately, the people who are most willing to talk about the main problem have the worst image.

Maybe this is why we're not getting anywhere.

If the Christian/paleo camp would adopt the Nazi tactic of naming the problem, we could wed the right message to the right image.[/QUOTE]

While it's true the Christian/paleo camp is woefully lacking in the many of the tools for success (as evidenced by their near century of political backsliding), I think they have a much more viable political substrate than, say, sieg heilers and kluxers. Yes, the latter have had success, but those days are long, long gone.

Walter Yannis

2004-05-27 05:25 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Current93]Just as with "Table Talk" these are about as valid as 'Hitler's Diary' which David Irving was among the first to expose.

The war by the jews on NS is continuing, it is the one political philosophy they fear. Just as with the "confessions" tortured out of Rudol Hoess, not to be confused with Rudolf Hess, anything said under duress must be suspect. Another hoax 'document' was 'Hitler's Testament'.

Jews love forgeries, in fact a jew forgery brought down a British government back in early 20th century.

I think my signature line tells it like it is, a man facing the wrath of the jews at Nuremberg and had nothing to lose.

What is important is the truth. The truth is that Christians in NS Germany were not harassed. The truth is that the enemy of humanity nearly was defeated by NS Germany. I think the world of today, with the jews in positions of paramount power and control, is a far worse place than the pre-war NS Germany.

I can only tell you that as I read the letters, with death at their door, of the NS leadership, intimate letters to family, there is no doubt that they actually and truly believed in Christ as much as Americans believe in money.

Now that is something. I also say that I am moved, greatly, by this intense belief in God and Christ as the Final Judge, reading the words of these NS people it is as if another world, a world where reality is that Christ is King and man goes about his business in that certain knowledge.

In this age of unbelief, of faux Christianity, of materialism and consumerism I find the NS leadership to have been men(and their families) of a firm resolve to do what was right, in so far as it is ever possible for man to do so.[/QUOTE]

Could you please reference a source of these letters and so forth?

You've spurred my interest.

Texas Dissident

2004-05-27 09:16 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]If the Christian/paleo camp would adopt the Nazi tactic of naming the problem, we could wed the right message to the right image.[/QUOTE]

Won't happen because the latter's most visible, singular effort is to continuously denounce the former. Some kind of weird psychological thing, in my opinion. The racialist nazis need the Christian/paleo-cons to bounce off of to satisfy some need to feel tough, harder or more of a rebel. I've long held to a vision of overcoming that dynamic, but three years running and I don't see any signs of optimism.

If there are any white nationalists out there reading this who share my vision, for the love of all that is good please step forward and present yourselves before your side's more crazed, nihilistic element forever slams the door on any possible dialogue. That is to say, if you really want any dialogue.

il ragno

2004-05-27 10:27 | User Profile

These seeming dichotomies are all easily explained: [I]drastic times call for drastic measures.[/I]

Good luck awakening the Christian faithful to the steadily-burgeoning Jewish threat via time-honored "Christian" methods. It won't happen because it can't happen. Get up on your pulpit - actual or electronic - and try to explain that there IS no such thing as "Judaeo-Christianity".

I guarantee it will be [I]your fellow Christians [/I] who will shout you down and discredit you. The Jew will merely be pushing you forward from the back of the crowd until the time is right for him to shout, "[B][I]He's got a gun!![/I][/B]" like he always does.....

il ragno

2004-05-27 11:16 | User Profile

One further point.

Why do people insist on debunking NS by insisting NS adherents/admirers wish to replicate the Third Reich in every particular? Every few weeks, it seems, there's a 200-post thread on OD in which the Christians deride the Nazis as "brownshirts" and "pagans" and "losers" - while the Realists maintain that NS is the [I]bete noire [/I] of modern Zionism and, to date, the only antitoxin proven effective....while pointing out that swastikas, goose-stepping, the Horst Wessel Song and other Axis ephemera are [I]relics best left to bygone eras[/I]. I don't know anyone of serious bent who even toys with the idea of restoring the Sieg-Heil salute....it is the [U]principles[/U] of NS which would benefit the West today, not its appurtenances.

And then, a few weeks later, bingo! Another long and yawnsome thread begins, nearly identical to the ones before it, in which the bombshell is dropped that the Nazis could never pass the white-glove test of the pious-minded Christian believer and the double-lightning-bolts are satanic in origin and howcum Hitler didn't have kids and yada yada yada....

Fellas, this is how the [I]Jews [/I] work, ok? Make a spurious, sensationalist charge - allow you to go blue in the face defending yourself [I]and [/I] logically dismissing the charge - give you five or ten seconds to get your breath - and then have another Jew or shabgoy rise up to make the [I]same [/I] charge oblivious to all of the preceding, in the hope that eventually the public will notice only the permanence of the accusations....or, better yet, the accused will, trapped in the kangaroo-trial limbo they've placed him in, snap out of frustration and blurt out an angry soundbite that can be soldered to his name and tombstone forever. Look at Buchanan, for Chrissakes - he is [I]still [/I] referred to/dismissed as a Holocaust-denier in the Respectable Press anytime some Jew (or "anti-racist" goyishe tool) feels like scoring a few quick points.

In this country, you can only be tried once for a crime. Even Jesus wasn't crucified twice. But suggest that something ought to be done - an effective political model be adopted - to prevent Jewish subjugation, and destruction, of the Western World, and not just Jews but their pet [I]gentiles [/I] will scurry out of their rat-holes to put you on trial over and over and over and over..... do we really need to contibute to this one-sided 'dialogue' on OD as well?

Most of us who admire NS -grudgingly or not - couldn't care less about restoring Hitler's good name. It's too late for that, and even if you could get him a posthumous MacArthur Genius Grant, it wouldn't ameliorate our current situation one iota. We look to the NS state for inspiration because neither democracy nor Christianity has been effective at halting the Jewish [I]long march through the institutions[/I]...let alone reversing it.

friedrich braun

2004-05-27 14:26 | User Profile

[I]Most of us who admire NS -grudgingly or not - couldn't care less about restoring Hitler's good name. It's too late for that, and even if you could get him a posthumous MacArthur Genius Grant, it wouldn't ameliorate our current situation one iota.[/I]

Who's this "us"? Speak only for yourself.

National Socialism is inexorably wedded to the name of Adolf Hitler -- to quote Alex Linder: "Only the jews won World War II, and that is why Hitler and the people who "got" and largely defeated the jews are the most lied about and demonized in history." [url]http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/2004b/50604lindersacramento2.htm[/url]

You might not care about attempting to set the record straight but many do. Presenting factual truths about the most maligned people in world history is what jews fear most -- hence, Orwellian "anti-hate laws" and the ostracism and persecution of any one who does not closely toe the official party line. The level of intellectual (and often physical) terrorism one faces when giving the "other side" is awe-inspiring.

Secondly, no one is going to rehabilitate National Socialist ideals without at the same time speaking about National Socialists and their accomplishments. One cannot argue in a vacuum. National Socialism was put into practice in a particular place and time and cannot be divorced from actual events and people.

il ragno

2004-05-27 14:43 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Who's this "us"? Speak only for yourself. [/QUOTE]

I always do. Unfortunately.

Has it ever occurred to you that the more insistently you polish Adolf Hitler's epaulets, the more remote the chances to ever see any form of NS take hold again in the West? Would that even matter, or are you one of those who needs to be forever marginalized and discounted? Because there are a LOT of rightists for whom Being A Beautiful Loser is all. They wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they were ever faced with an opportunity to seize back ground. Whether it's the Civil War, WW 2, or one of Walter's medieval Crusades, there are too many of us stupidly stuck in the mud and waiting for the world to draft us an apology [I]that's never coming[/I]. What good is it being Right.... if you're simultaneously powerless to turn back and defeat Wrong?

I'm already on record as stating that Hitler was - for a time - the greatest statesman of the 20th century. But I'll be goddamned if I'm going to devote the rest of my life to building a shrine to anyone whose legacy - [B]intended or not[/B] - was the end of race-based nationalism in the West. And the same goes for anyone still waiting for Stonewall Jackson's face to show up on the dollar bill.

It's not that I don't admire those men: I do. But this is the here and now, and if fetishizing Hitler is [I]actively impeding [/I] a revival of race-based national socialism from organically occurring now and in the immediate future, then I suggest we all stop doing it.

Walter Yannis

2004-05-27 16:00 | User Profile

[QUOTE]But this is the here and now, and if fetishizing Hitler is actively impeding a revival of race-based national socialism from organically occurring now and in the immediate future, then I suggest we all stop doing it.[/QUOTE]

I agree.

As I said on another thread (or two or ten threads, this has been going on just the longest time now) even if somebody likes Hitler that's no reason to make the marketing blunder of extolling him.

Gazillions of dollars have been invested in the mass media to condition a strong and automatic negative emotional reaction to Nazi symbols in our people.

Why in the hell would anybody with any sense at all waste our precious time and extremely limited resources attacking the enemy at his marketing strong point???

Extolling Hitler is worse than merely evil, it's STUPID.

And let me repeat the flip side of the marketing argument. Gazillions of additonal dollars have been poured into building up Christian symbols to elicit POSITIVE reactions in our people. Sure, those symbols are under attack, but the fact remains that those cultural trademarks did enjoy huge marketing budgets and the marketing capital accumulated in them is enormous. They're OUR STRONG POINT, just as Nazi symbols are the enemy's marketing STRONG POINT.

So, get smart and start playing to our strengths rather than to the enemy's strength. And that means for the non-Christians among us to get behind the Christian Nationalist program, even if you find it unpalatable at times. As far as I'm concerned all nationalists who aren't against us are with us.

This marketing argument is just a no-brainer, guys.

Stop with the losing strategy already. Quit crying over lost (and therefore LOSER) causes and set your eyes on the prize. Christianity is our best chance, place your entire wad on that horse, even if you don't particularly like the looks or smell of it.

Just win, baby.

Walter

il ragno

2004-05-27 16:52 | User Profile

No. Christianity is dying, if not dead. And a perfect example of that "tendency to subdivide into fratricidal factions" I mentioned on another thread.

For the most part, OD's most vocal Christians are tiny splinters broken off of much larger sects; they do not represent - indeed, reject outright - the Christianity practiced by millions and millions of their fellows. It may well be that you ten or twelve are Right and the other 400 million are Misguided or Wrong - but to expect anyone to join you on a crusade back to the faith of El Cid is even dumber than ordering bulk swastikas for the Day of the Rope.

Here is the situation we are in. Either we get back our homelands FOR OURSELVES - not for Jesus or Hitler or Odin or Foghorn Leghorn - by breaking the shackles of superstition and myth and self-deluding hero-worship, or we've blown it. Your own private religion is your business, but you'd have to be inordinately dim to think the Jews who hold all the strings "believe in God" - at least in a God who plays fair and judges on merit. Jews have a religion which tells them that God is on [I]their [/I] team, solely concerned with their well-being, and the other 6 billion people on Earth are there for the Jews to exploit and discard as convenience dictates - thus, Jews operate solely out of a cosmology of Jewish self-interest. (And that's just the religious ones. The secular ones tend to be [I]selfish[/I].)

C'mon, folks. We've had 5000 years of accumulated knowledge and technological development and any number of castastrophic mistakes to learn from. If we can't do this for US, we sure ain't gonna do it for the greater glory of anybody [I]else[/I].

Quantrill

2004-05-27 16:57 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]C'mon, folks. We've had 5000 years of accumulated knowledge and technological development and any number of castastrophic mistakes to learn from. If we can't do this for US, we sure ain't gonna do it for the greater glory of anybody else.[/QUOTE] I think this is almost the exact opposite of the case. Throughout history, people have been willing to fight and die for some greater cause, myth, or unifying view, whether it was Christianity, the Empire, Islam, the international proletarian revolution, etc. Some unifying vision is an absolute requirement for a successful movement. I think Christianity provides that vision.

Walter Yannis

2004-05-27 18:46 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Either we get back our homelands FOR OURSELVES - not for Jesus or Hitler or Odin or Foghorn Leghorn [/QUOTE]

There's not much I wouldn't do to advance the cause of [URL=http://members.aol.com/howardsays/foghorn/foghorn.htm]Foghorn Leghorn[/URL].

Walter

Texas Dissident

2004-05-27 18:52 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]Either we get back our homelands FOR OURSELVES - not for Jesus or Hitler or Odin or Foghorn Leghorn - by breaking the shackles of superstition and myth and self-deluding hero-worship, or we've blown it.[/QUOTE]

If that's the case, then I'm gettin' mine and screw the rest of you suckers.

Walter Yannis

2004-05-27 19:00 | User Profile

[QUOTE]No. Christianity is dying, if not dead.[/QUOTE]

Oh, c'mon.

You can't be serious.

How do you explain Mel Gibson's low-budget Jesus flick growing maketing legs and selling bizillions of dollars worth of tickets in the first few weeks after its release?

Or the mega-gazillions spent on Christian radio, television, books, and other media?

Christianity is alive and well and growing rapidly (everywhere except the areas that rejected her teachings). While it's true that we face perhaps the worst heresy in history with Modernism, it's not like nobody's fighting back.

And it simply isn't true that there are only a few of us Christian Nationalists out there. There are lots of Christian nationalists in Russia, Serbia, Ukraine, Poland - and their influence is growing. I know several of them personally. The Orthodox Church is a cause for great hope.

Ragman, my friend, methinks you need to get out more.

Walter

madrussian

2004-05-27 19:07 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]to expect anyone to join you on a crusade back to the faith of El Cid is even dumber than ordering bulk swastikas for the Day of the Rope. [/QUOTE] :thumbsup:

il ragno

2004-05-27 20:01 | User Profile

EXACTLY my point, Current. The ideology is important; the symbology isn't. Particularly since that symbology has been so demonized, hating the Nazis has now become the equivalent - the replacement! -of God-worship as the True North on the moral compass for the vast majority of American Christians anyway.

il ragno

2004-05-27 20:57 | User Profile

Walter, I can't believe you're going to base your argument on a MOVIE but ok, let's take your argument at face value.

First of all, it's no surprise that THE PASSION earned a jinsky at the box office - anybody could do the math and figure that out, based on the prior huge financial success of other religious entertainment such as the LEFT BEHIND series. (The difference was that THE PASSION earned front-page publicity for weeks and months beforehand, while most religious-themed books and films tend to slip by under the radar.)

But like the LEFT BEHIND series, the PASSION's ticket-buyers included every sort of Christian, including most of the ones you lot here look down your nose at: premillenial dispensationalists, Third World Catholics, fag-marriers, Somali-importers, even the odd Jehovah's Witness and Christian Scientist. I'm not saying you're not [I]correct [/I] to sneer at many of these people (I have no idea) but I [I]am [/I] saying you're way off in considering these people your natural allies. Let the subject of your summit meeting drift to, say, politics, or race, and you'll all be at each other's throats in minutes.

Plus, by your logic, your god would be still five or six games back in the loss column behind ObiWan Kenobi, so let's drop this 'Mel's movie proves we are strong and sinewy'. At the end of the day, it's a [I]movie[/I].

As society becomes more secular, and church going (or more properly, [I]believing[/I]) becomes more and more a personal choice instead of an inherited obligation, fewer and fewer people are choosing to believe. I don't doubt they're still filling pews and tithing-plates, but the disconnect between the face you wear for an hour on Sunday, and the one you wear the other six-and-a-half days of the week, could [I]not [/I] be more pronounced. It's possible that as these people grow older, and the need for kinetic surface sensation gives way to a need for something deeper and more lasting, some of them may return to religion. (But working against [I]that [/I] is the modern American trend of dedicating one's efforts towards remaining an adolescent into one's fifties....) As for the people who are hardcore about their religion....Good Lord, man, [I]who do you think is keeping Bush's poll numbers up[/I]?

As a Catholic, you should be savvy enough to know that. What was that no-meat-on-Friday flip-flop all about, if not gussying up the old church so as to stanch the flow of lapsed Catholics drifting away? Why do you suppose Catholic Charities - heck, the Church herself - is gung-ho for Third World immigration? Because preserving a country's racial or national identity is immaterial; wholly secondary to keeping asses in pews by any means necessary. You gonna tell me the pederasty scandals did no damage to American Catholicism? Attendance isn't down? Coffers just as full? Families with 12-year-old boys in them aren't nervously faith-shopping for a religion where the holy men are married, or at least keep it in their pants?

Now, unlike the Catholics, some of the other major denominations - the Baptists, the Evangelicals, the Assemblies of God - don't require the efforts of Jewish media to demonize them. These raving, chicken-fried lunatics frighten sentient human beings out of their socks [I]all on their lonesome[/I]. The other day I watched John Hagee holding court before 10,000 people (who likely had nothing better to do that day - let's face it) in that converted aircraft hangar he calls a church, talking abouy how God wants us to rally behind George Bush & America in our war against terror. He pointed toward an American flag and thuundered, "If a man calls himself an American and he won't salute that flag every time he passes it - why, he's not worth the gunpowder it would take to shoot him!" Then there was a cutaway to Hagee in his office...all intimate-like....as he pitched a series of books and tapes. I thought Farrakhan was numbers-oriented, but Hagee gave him a run for our money. "Do you know the 9 signs that your conscience is defiled? You will when you hear these tapes. The 7 blessings you wil immediately receive upon getting saved. You will learn - and this is so important - the 6 conditions you must meet before God can answer your prayer. This is so powerful, there is so much of value in these talks, I strongly suggest you listen to these over and over that you might better absorb this vital information. The 5 things you need to do to keep God in your marriage...."

I switched the channel before he could get to "blast off!"

I don't see a strong, sinewy faith devouring all false gods in its path, growing, multiplying, building momentum. I see a mix of charlatans, naifs, and well-intentioned men of principle- all nervously looking at market-shares and timid projections and struggling to hold on to what percentages they already hold. And when America is all Mexicans and Hindus and blacks, who revert to their savage gods of old once they attain numerical superiority; and Europe is overrun with Arabs.... where will the faith be [I]then[/I]?

Okiereddust

2004-05-27 21:22 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Current93]I think our friends on OD are probably still thinking about NS from a Hollyweird perspective, that is not uncommon even among thinking people, after all the brainwashing has been going on for over one half a century.

[/QUOTE]If you'd been around here a little during the last couple of years and followed anyone of the interminable discussions with Trisk among others, you might know a little bit of what you're talking about.

You, and some of the others, certainly fit one part of the Hollywood Nazi image - that of arrogant so-callled supermen contemptuous of reality.

All Old Right

2004-05-27 22:21 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]If you'd been around here a little during the last couple of years and followed anyone of the interminable discussions with Trisk among others, you might know a little bit of what you're talking about.

You, and some of the others, certainly fit one part of the Hollywood Nazi image - that of arrogant so-callled supermen contemptuous of reality.[/QUOTE] Okie: Very well put. Bullies!!! I know WWII vets who knew real nazis and found them likeable. But, these wannabes posting on the net, who the hell knows where they come from, or where they got that huge chip on their shoulder.

friedrich braun

2004-05-27 22:39 | User Profile

[I]Now, unlike the Catholics, some of the other major denominations - the Baptists, the [I][B]Episcopals[/B][/I], the Assemblies of God - don't require the efforts of Jewish media to demonize them. These raving, chicken-fried lunatics frighten sentient human beings out of their socks all on their lonesome.[/I]

A quick comment:

Episcopalians (Anglicans) are the diametrical opposite of "raving, chicken-fried lunatics." The Anglican Church has always been known as a "thinking Church" -- Anglicans in my neck of the woods have little in common with American "born again" Evangelicals on tv peddling all sorts of dubious products (e.g., "prayer cloths"), performing mass healings (e.g., Benny Hinn), crying at the drop of a hat, etc.

il ragno

2004-05-27 22:52 | User Profile

My apologies; I brain-locked and typed "Episcopals" for "Evangelicals."

madrussian

2004-05-27 23:28 | User Profile

Religion is the opium of the people :D

Texas Dissident

2004-05-27 23:52 | User Profile

[QUOTE=madrussian]Religion is the opium of the people :D[/QUOTE]

Proclaiming 'religion is the opium of the people' is the opium of 'rational', 'scientific' atheists.

il ragno

2004-05-28 00:04 | User Profile

Well, let's be honest: ever since the 60s, [I]opium[/I] is the opium of the people.

PaleoconAvatar

2004-05-29 02:05 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]Here is the situation we are in. Either we get back our homelands FOR OURSELVES - not for Jesus or Hitler or Odin or Foghorn Leghorn...Plus, by your logic, your god would be still five or six games back in the loss column behind ObiWan Kenobi, so let's drop this 'Mel's movie proves we are strong and sinewy'. At the end of the day, it's a [I]movie[/I].

IR, it is good that you continue to post at OD. As usual, these entertaining quotes made my day.

Ruffin

2004-05-29 02:48 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Proclaiming 'religion is the opium of the people' is the opium of 'rational', 'scientific' atheists.

:D[/QUOTE]

Think about John Brown. Then look around at a Bush campaign rally (or a Kerry one, for that matter).

madrussian

2004-05-29 03:03 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Proclaiming 'religion is the opium of the people' is the opium of 'rational', 'scientific' atheists.

:D[/QUOTE] Why use the quotes? Does rationality and science ever come with belief in contradictory and poorly substantiated written material?

il ragno

2004-05-29 04:00 | User Profile

Paul, you been gone too long. Just read your contributions to the "Lovin' Adolf" thread with rapt admiration as always. If you're planning to make this appearance a cameo, at least let us know where you're hanging your rhetorical hat these days.

PaleoconAvatar

2004-05-29 04:14 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]Paul, you been gone too long. Just read your contributions to the "Lovin' Adolf" thread with rapt admiration as always. If you're planning to make this appearance a cameo, at least let us know where you're hanging your rhetorical hat these days.[/QUOTE]

Thanks much for the kind words. As you have requested the location of the rhetorical hat, there is no such place. I have written zip, nada, zero, nothing anywhere for some months now. I'm still largely in the grip of the notion that there's not much I can say of consequence at this point in our national life. What's changed? Should I trade the viewing public a Daniel Berg for a Nick Pearl (or was it the other way around)? What a farce this place we call America is. Although sometimes circumstances call for clarification. Therefore, I do intend to make cameo appearances from time to time here in order to "clarify."

il ragno

2004-05-29 04:22 | User Profile

[QUOTE]I'm still largely in the grip of the notion that there's not much I can say of consequence at this point in our national life.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I feel the same sobering weight of ugly reality.

Still, if they're going to take all the candles and all the matches away from us, and we [I]don't [/I] curse the darkness....how will anyone know that we were ever [I]here[/I]?

Walter Yannis

2004-05-29 05:22 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]Well, let's be honest: ever since the 60s, [I]opium[/I] is the opium of the people.[/QUOTE]

Here's a big opium bump! :thumbsup:

Walter Yannis

2004-05-29 05:24 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]Yes, I feel the same sobering weight of ugly reality.

Still, if they're going to take all the candles and all the matches away from us, and we [I]don't [/I] curse the darkness....how will anyone know that we were ever [I]here[/I]?[/QUOTE]

Right.

They can't say they have a monopoly so long as Tex keeps us online.

We deny them that.

It's a little candle in a dark void to be sure, but that's no reason not to let it shine.

Walter

Texas Dissident

2004-05-29 10:18 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ruffin]Think about John Brown. Then look around at a Bush campaign rally (or a Kerry one, for that matter).[/QUOTE]

Think about atheist communism or nazi eugenicists.

Texas Dissident

2004-05-29 10:24 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]Yes, I feel the same sobering weight of ugly reality.[/QUOTE]

Believe me, I know what y'all are saying. One is torn between raging at the dying of the light and the oppressive fact that politically speaking, it's all been said, there is no debate and no one's mind is really ever changed.

Ride the snake.

Ruffin

2004-05-29 13:33 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Think about atheist communism or nazi eugenicsts.[/QUOTE]

You seriously think these are comparable?

madrussian

2004-05-29 13:42 | User Profile

As if communism was science and rationality-based. Equating anything that's not Christian with 'science and rationality' in the attempt to discredit them doesn't make much sense.

Walter Yannis

2004-05-29 14:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Believe me, I know what y'all are saying. One is torn between raging at the dying of the light and the oppressive fact that politically speaking, it's all been said, there is no debate and no one's mind is really ever changed.

Ride the snake.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I dunno.

My opinions have certainly developed over the years.

And my many coversations here on OD influenced me greatly. Lotsa smart guys here, I love it.

But I think that Ygg's right that we'll need something approaching a collapse before most people are willing to listen to us.

Walter

Texas Dissident

2004-05-29 16:21 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ruffin]You seriously think these are comparable?[/QUOTE]

Yes, both deny God and the soul of man.

Ruffin

2004-05-29 16:43 | User Profile

Yeah, they both probably wear pajamas when they go to bed, but one of them ain't what's breathing down our neck now.

Texas Dissident

2004-05-29 16:50 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ruffin]Yeah, they both probably wear pajamas when they go to bed, but one of them ain't what's breathing down our neck now.[/QUOTE]

Not so sure as one of 'em is a subset of an ideology that has snuffed out the lives of over 40 million Americans since 1973.

I'm trying to fight on both sides.

Ruffin

2004-05-29 16:55 | User Profile

May I assume you're not trying to assign feminism or "a woman's right to choose" as the subset of the one that is out of power?

Walter Yannis

2004-05-31 05:00 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ruffin]Yeah, they both probably wear pajamas when they go to bed, but one of them ain't what's breathing down our neck now.[/QUOTE]

That's right, but as I pointed out that's because we took one of them out in 1945.

Then we managed to take the other one out in 1989 without another devastating conflagration, thanks be to a very Merciful God.

Neither Nazi Germany nor Soviet Russia are "breathing down our necks" precisely because we won WWII & WWIII.

Had we lost, we certainly wouldn't be having this discussion now. So, let's be thankful for what we've got.

And now we're dealing with the blowback from all that.

It's like peeling the onion. We're now facing squarely the spiritual threat that lie at the root of both of the Communist and Nazi action and reaction, respectively.

This thing isn't over yet. But we'll win, I don't doubt that. Just as soon as we put our spiritual house in order, ousting the Marxist and Nazi squatters from our holy land.

Regards,

Walter

Hilaire Belloc

2004-05-31 05:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Johnathan]I have two points:

1) National Socialism will never be a Christian ideology. No matter how much CI adherents want it to be.
[/QUOTE]

I suggest you read the recent book out titled The Holy Reich Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919Ã¢â¬â1945 by Richard Steigmann-Gall.

** [url]http://books.cambridge.org/0521823714.htm[/url]

Analyzing the previously unexplored religious views of the Nazi elite, Richard Steigmann-Gall argues against the consensus that Nazism as a whole was either unrelated to Christianity or actively opposed to it. He demonstrates that many participants in the Nazi movement believed that the contours of their ideology were based on a Christian understanding of GermanyÃ¢â¬â¢s ills and their cure. A program usually regarded as secular in inspiration - the creation of a racialist Ã¢â¬ËpeopleÃ¢â¬â¢s communityÃ¢â¬â¢ embracing antisemitism, antiliberalism and anti-Marxism - was, for these Nazis, conceived in explicitly Christian terms. His examination centers on the concept of Ã¢â¬Ëpositive Christianity,Ã¢â¬â¢ a religion espoused by many members of the party leadership. He also explores the struggle the Ã¢â¬Ëpositive ChristiansÃ¢â¬â¢ waged with the partyÃ¢â¬â¢s paganists - those who rejected Christianity in toto as foreign and corrupting - and demonstrates that this was not just a conflict over religion, but over the very meaning of Nazi ideology itself. **

And an article explaining more: [url]http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2003/08/17/the_christian_nazis/[/url]

The Christian Nazis? By Christopher Shea, Globe Correspondent, 8/17/2003

RECENT DECADES HAVE seen endless interpretive battles over the Nazis. The Holocaust was an evil genius's long-prepared scheme, or an improvised response to developments during World War IIone of several possible ``Final Solutions.'' German soldiers were only willing to commit genocide after participating in brutal warfare on the Eastern front, or they were eager killers from the start. Churches resisted the Third Reich, or they legitimated it.

Until now, though, one piece of conventional wisdom has gone unchallenged: that the Nazis disliked Christianity. The standard view has been that while Hitler and his deputies may have feigned respect for religion during their ascent to power, they essentially believed, with Nietzsche, in the ``death of God.'' They were as anti-Christian as the Soviets, but with a pagan twist: Some of them hoped to turn mutant versions of dormant Germanic and Norse legends into a state religion. In the place of the cross, think Wagner and Wotan, swords and horned helmets.

Richard Steigmann-Gall, an assistant professor of history at Kent State in Ohio, thinks otherwise. In his new book, The Holy Reich (Cambridge), he argues that many Nazis and their followers were sincere Christian believers. Nazism was the opposite of atheistic: It was a singularly horrific attempt to preserve God against secular society.'' Indeed,the battles waged against Germany's enemies constituted a war in the name of Christianity.'' The modern tendency to paint Hitler and his allies as anti-Christian ``kooks,'' he explains in an interview, is just another way to put an artificial distance between them and us and thereby to avoid the toughest questions about our own susceptibility to evil.

There were a handful of self-styled pagans in the Nazi regime, notably Heinrich Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg. But many other Nazis thought their religious views were ridiculous,'' Steigmann-Gall says.Hitler didn't hesitate to mock their ideas behind their back.'' Additionally, the 1939 book Hitler Speaks,'' in which the Fhrer was quoted as saying that his future plans includedstamping out Christianity in Germany, root and branch,'' is now widely viewed as a fraud.

Though Hitler did view Roman Catholicism as a threat to German nationalism, Steigmann-Gall points out, his hope until the late 1930s was to unite Protestants under one state church. Plenty were willing to go along, but dissenters, including Martin Niemller and his ``Pastors' Emergency League,'' fended off the plan. Imprisoned for his efforts, Niemller was lauded as a hero after the war.

Steigmann-Gall emphasizes that Niemller and his peers were far more concerned with preserving their churches' autonomy than with opposing the regime's ideology. In fact, Niemller voiced vicious anti-Semitic sentiments of his own. Moreover, Steigmann-Gall argues, historians have failed to come to grips with the tight interweaving of Protestantism and German identity. In the 1920s, one of Hitler's intellectual mentors, Dietrich Eckart, talked up parallels between Christianity and muscular nationalism: ``In Christ, the embodiment of all manliness, we find all that we need.'' In 1933, after the Nazis assumed power, ministers argued from the pulpit that it was fitting that this social revolution had come on the 450th anniversary of Martin Luther's birth.

Is Steigmann-Gall's argument fair? Several critics have pointed out that the conception of Christianity held by most National Socialists was far from a conventional one. As Jack Fischel, a historian at Millersville University, argued in The Weekly Standard last month, ``By eliminating the Old Testament from the biblical canon, reinventing Jesus as an Aryan, and depicting the struggles of Christ as the archetype of the eternal battle between the Aryan and the Semite . . . the Nazis altered fundamental Christian doctrine.''

John S. Conway, author of The Nazi Persecution of the Churches'' (1968), agrees:The kind of Christianity they thought they believed in was so diluted of orthodoxy that it was just a mishmash which even the most liberal Protestant would find difficult to swallow.''

Yet many did swallow it, Steigmann-Gall counters. To say Nazis weren't Christians because their views were a mishmash is too convenient,'' he says.It doesn't explain Nazi conceptions of Christianity. It explains away Nazi conceptions of Christianity.''

Christopher Shea's column appears in Ideas biweekly. E-mail: [email]critical.faculties@verizon.net[/email].

Franco

2004-05-31 06:42 | User Profile

Not so sure as one of 'em is a subset of an ideology that has snuffed out the lives of over 40 million Americans since 1973.

That's pretty fancy footwork, Tex, but Uncle Franco ain't buying it.

Jews invented, and run, the abortion movement: [url]http://wsi.matriots.com/abortbiz.html[/url]

Yer Uncle Frankie is very upset that you attempt to pin the abortion industry on the Nazis...

:nerd:

Walter Yannis

2004-05-31 08:09 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Franco]That's pretty fancy footwork, Tex, but Uncle Franco ain't buying it.

Jews invented, and run, the abortion movement: [url]http://wsi.matriots.com/abortbiz.html[/url]

Yer Uncle Frankie is very upset that you attempt to pin the abortion industry on the Nazis...---------------[/QUOTE]

Margaret Sanger was of Irish extraction. Catholic too, I think. I think that her husband may have been Tribal, but I'm not sure of that.

She was an open Nazi sympathizer, and edited a journal that featured Nazi eugenicist ravings in the 1930's.

Sanger wanted to lock away or sterilize all people, including whites, who didn't meet her exacting standards for racial health. She wanted to create large camps for our fellow citizens who didn't meet her exacting expectations. She wanted to outlaw child birth absent a state license for everybody. Nazi notions, all. Planned Parenthood - the organization founded by Margaret Sanger herself - refuses to renounce Sanger's Nazi views, and thus remains a Nazi organization, at least by way of covert ideology.

Yet, Planned Parenthood is filled with Jews. Now here's a curious fact for you, good brother Franco. The Nazis and Jews are in the same movement, working toward the same ends! They feel right at home together. That simple fact destroys your argument.

Your "Nazis good, Jews bad" theory fails utterly on that point. You can't explain why in the world so many Jews would feel so at home in a Nazi organization, and a Nazi-inspired industry, inasmuch as you insist that the Nazis and Bolsheviks are somehow ideological opposites.

But the view Tex advances does explain that obvious fact, by simply pointing out that the two ideologies are in accord on the most fundamental question and in addition largely overlap in regard to goals and methods. Your position that the two are somehow diametrically opposed is in the teeth of the clear facts.

Tex's view (and I don't mean to put words in your mouth, Tex) is that the German Nazis and the Jewish Bolsheviks are flip sides of the same coin. They both proceed from a hatred of humanity and the Gospel. Both are terrible spiritual diseases.

Nazis like Sanger thought that half of us gentiles are unfit to live and should be sterilized and imprisoned. By simple extrapolation one arrives from that hideous position to that of the Jewish Bolsheviks, who believe that none of us gentiles are fit to live. It is therefore NO SURPRISE AT ALL that our own Marxist Jewish abortionists should find so much in common with Nazis like Sanger and her followers.

Neither ideolodgy accepts man, qua man. Neither ideology looks at God's creation and says with God "it is good."

To repeat, there is little difference between the Nazis and the Bolsheviks. They both share a taproot in Hell, and both are equally the enemies of Christ and His Church.

Your heart is ill, brother. I beg you to open your heart to the Great Physician, who will heal your soul without fail. Give up this Nazi thing, brother Franco. It's ugly.

Gregz

2004-05-31 17:02 | User Profile

Walter Yannis

Some suggest that National Socialism was inspired by talmudic Judaism and is a Jewish project gone wrong. Or like Bolshevism a ideological 'red herring' designed to undermine Christian Nationalism's hold on Europe. Both ideologies are certainly elitist enough to have the same co-author at least at conception.

Hitler despite his political genus was constantly at war with himself and full of self loathing. Apparently he often referred to his quarter Jewish blood as a sickness within him polluting his other wise heathy Aryan blood.

Whilst both National Socialism and Christian Nationalism have their short comings. I am glad that I am in the latter camp and not the former.

The sectarian divisions which plagued Europe in the past between Protestants and Catholics where little more than inane power and theological struggles between greedy secular elites.

Europe once comprised of culturally and ethically insular societies. Due to the strength of the church's influence upon the state. These societies where extremely religious, indeed often repressive so. However they accomplished far more than simply promoting a sense of community and group identity among people but a strong sense of national identity.

The greatest enemy of Christian Nationalism is Jewish, neo-liberal, secular humanism. A strong Christian state or a fundamentalists Islamic society is not a place where the godless, amoral, secular, anti-Christ, Jew wishes to live.

Gregz

"The fight in Ireland has been one for the soul of a race - that Irish race which with seven centuries of defeat behind it still battled for the sanctity of its dwelling place." - James Connolly, 1915

Johnathan

2004-06-02 04:27 | User Profile

[QUOTE=perun1201]I suggest you read the recent book out titled The Holy Reich Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919Ã¢â¬â1945 by Richard Steigmann-Gall.

[url="http://books.cambridge.org/0521823714.htm"]http://books.cambridge.org/0521823714.htm[/url]

And an article explaining more: [url="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2003/08/17/the_christian_nazis/"]http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2003/08/17/the_christian_nazis/[/url]

The Christian Nazis? By Christopher Shea, Globe Correspondent, 8/17/2003

Christopher Shea's column appears in Ideas biweekly. E-mail: [email="critical.faculties@verizon.net."]critical.faculties@verizon.net.[/email][/QUOTE]

I don't buy this. If Hitler and the party elite (save for the Himmler/Rosenberg faction) were committed to Christianity, why did the NSDAP not look more like Franco's regime in Spain or the Romanian Iron Guard? Why did they invoke Pagan imagery on a constant basis? Why did they introduce their own "arcane" program instead of falling back on Christian doctrines?

And finally, you can disagree with me, but Christianity is a renegade sect of Judaism that was imposed on Germanic peoples by force. National Socialism was an atavistic response by Aryan peoples against an alien regime...it returned Germany to "business as usual", historically speaking.

Walter Yannis

2004-06-02 17:15 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Johnathan]And finally, you can disagree with me, but Christianity is a renegade sect of Judaism that was imposed on Germanic peoples by force. National Socialism was an atavistic response by Aryan peoples against an alien regime...it returned Germany to "business as usual", historically speaking.[/QUOTE]

Germany was largely pre-historical before the Church brought civilization to them. Much like the Irish, Poles, Lithuanians, Russians.

It is therefore incorrect (or at least extremely misleading) to call Germany's pagan past part of its "history."

Paganism was Germany's pre-history, and Christianity was the nearly whole of Germany's great history, until around 1850, a short time even by historical standards.

Thus, historically speaking, as you say, Germany didn't return to "business as usual" by embracing Hitler's neo-paganism, but rather attempted to re-enter its barbaric pre-history.

I say "attempted" because as C.S. Lewis pointed out, the project is doomed from the start. You can't return to the past. You can't re-enter that pagan world, too much has changed, both in the world and in the German soul. The attempt entails catastrophe, as Jung prophesied and as Hitler made manifest.

Let me ask you, Jonathan, why are you here? You know that this is a Christian forum, and yet you write things as above that can only serve to provoke the Christians here.

What purpose does your presence here serve? What do you hope to accomplish?

I think that these are fair questions.

Walter

Johnathan

2004-06-02 17:28 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Germany was largely pre-historical before the Church brought civilization to them. Much like the Irish, Poles, Lithuanians, Russians.

It is therefore incorrect (or at least extremely misleading) to call Germany's pagan past part of its "history."

Paganism was Germany's pre-history, and Christianity was the nearly whole of Germany's great history, until around 1850, a short time even by historical standards.

Thus, historically speaking, as you say, Germany didn't return to "business as usual" by embracing Hitler's neo-paganism, but rather attempted to re-enter its barbaric pre-history.

Let me ask you, Jonathan, why are you here? You know that this is a Christian forum, and yet you write things as above that can only serve to provoke the Christians here.

What purpose does your presence here serve? What do you hope to accomplish?

I think that these are fair questions.

Walter[/QUOTE]Well, I don't think that the Vikings were wallowing in a "prehistoric" state when they were conquering the known world, but I do agree with much of what you say.

RE: Why I am here:

Every White Nationalist site except for OD is staffed by mentally retarded malcontents, white trash cultists, vulgar perverts, hollywood Nazis, clowns in halloween costumes, and racketeers who are trying to separate the aforementioned riff-raff from their money. So...I choose to spend my time here because I can learn things from you guys and I see something positive developing here.

I don't dislike Christians. I was raised Lutheran. However, I don't think that the Papacy or the Protestant leadership are doing anything to aid us in our struggle. In fact, I see an awful lot of cynicism and sabotage coming from their end.

Futhermore, you are not going to get people on board with a movement to preserve America's Germanic heritage by cloaking your message in the language of Christianity...you are going to get people on board (especially young people) by cultivating a tribal identity within them and by making them realize that Germanic/Aryan culture is nothing to denigrate or take for granted. The way to cultivate such an identity (IMO) is to emphasize the warrior ethos and volk origins of their ancestors.

Personally, when I was a lad in Church, I used to wonder why it was important for me to learn about the lineages of a bunch of Jews and Arabs. I'm not a Hebrew and I'm not a Bedouin. On some level, every White youth who is at all racially/culturally aware goes through this.

Please stop thinking that I am trying to antagonize you.

il ragno

2004-06-02 18:00 | User Profile

Good for you, Johnathan!

Welcome to the board, and don't think you're alone here - you're not, and your contributions are appreciated.

madrussian

2004-06-02 18:02 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Johnathan] Futhermore, you are not going to get people on board with a movement to preserve America's Germanic heritage by cloaking your message in the language of Christianity...you are going to get people on board (especially young people) by cultivating a tribal identity within them and by making them realize that Germanic/Aryan culture is nothing to denigrate or take for granted. The way to cultivate such an identity (IMO) is to emphasize the warrior ethos and volk origins of their ancestors. [/QUOTE] Oh my God, you sound just like triskelion :smoke:

Ruffin

2004-06-02 19:56 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]That's right, but as I pointed out that's because we took one of them out in 1945.

Then we managed to take the other one out in 1989 without another devastating conflagration, thanks be to a very Merciful God.

Neither Nazi Germany nor Soviet Russia are "breathing down our necks" precisely because we won WWII & WWIII.

Had we lost, we certainly wouldn't be having this discussion now. So, let's be thankful for what we've got.

And now we're dealing with the blowback from all that.

It's like peeling the onion. We're now facing squarely the spiritual threat that lie at the root of both of the Communist and Nazi action and reaction, respectively.

This thing isn't over yet. But we'll win, I don't doubt that. Just as soon as we put our spiritual house in order, ousting the Marxist and Nazi squatters from our holy land.

Regards,

Walter[/QUOTE]

Are you a very old vet, Walter, or do you write for WND?

madrussian

2004-06-02 20:18 | User Profile

Walter is hallucinating, as usual.

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 01:48 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Current93]Heinrich Himmler was a Catholic his whole life. Rudolf Hess a Christian. Adolf Hitler a Roman Catholic.

You get the idea.

All this hocuspocus that the National Socialists were occultic pagan devil worshippers was cooked up by Jews.

If you swallow that Adolf Hitler was a Faustian figure then don't forget to take the tour at Auschwitz.[/QUOTE]

Wait a moment. You may not be aware of your own title. :tongue:

I would be [I]very[/I] much mistaken, if that 'Aquarian' thingie wasnÃÂ´t made up by Aleister Crowley, 20th centuryÃÂ´s most infamous occult-pagan devil worshipper. :blow:

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 01:53 | User Profile

[QUOTE=friedrich braun]The ideals of National Socialism will never die and are timeless...[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://members.aol.com/elvers/undead.jpg[/IMG]

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 01:58 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Current93] I think my signature line tells it like it is, a man facing the wrath of the jews at Nuremberg and had nothing to lose. [/QUOTE]

Hitler was dead at Nuremberg. :blow:

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 02:01 | User Profile

[QUOTE=friedrich braun]Alright. What's your point?

No, he wrote 'Wotan' in 1936. He was in depression because he foresaw the disaster.

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 02:05 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]So we should rally behind the camp the is largely afraid to discuss one our biggest problems (Jewish Influence)?

The Christian/paleo camp has the right image. But that alone will not move our side forward.

And unfortunately, the people who are most willing to talk about the main problem have the worst image.

Maybe this is why we're not getting anywhere.

If the Christian/paleo camp would adopt the Nazi tactic of naming the problem, we could wed the right message to the right image.[/QUOTE]

IÃÂ´d say recapturing the Christian Churches would be sufficient, particularly in America. I donÃÂ´t think Nazi tactics would be helpful with this. :yucky:

Valley Forge

2004-06-03 03:03 | User Profile

Of course.

But remember Jews control the opinion shaping institutions throughout the West and have no intention of allowing traditional Christians to lead a revival of our faith.

How do you propose we solve this problem without using the Nazi tactic of challenging and confronting Jews?

[QUOTE=Paleoleftist]IÃÂ´d say recapturing the Christian Churches would be sufficient, particularly in America.[/QUOTE]

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 03:51 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]Of course.

But remember Jews control the opinion shaping institutions throughout the West and have no intention of allowing traditional Christians to lead a revival of our faith.

How do you propose we solve this problem without using the Nazi tactic of challenging and confronting Jews?[/QUOTE]

Hmmm. A local Church is a pretty close-knit community, no? Converting your friends, one person at a time, is very different from marching around the city in uniforms, or even martial public speeches or Linderite propaganda pamphlets (which were the actual Nazi tactics in Weimar).

Valley Forge

2004-06-03 03:56 | User Profile

Do you agree we wouldn't have to go one person at a time if we could get the Christian message into the opinion shaping institutions?

[QUOTE=Paleoleftist]Hmmm. A local Church is a pretty close-knit community, no? Converting your friends, one person at a time, is very different from marching around the city in uniforms, or even martial public speeches or Linderite propaganda pamphlets (which were the actual Nazi tactics in Weimar).[/QUOTE]

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 03:59 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]Do you agree we wouldn't have to go one person at a time if we could get the Christian message into the opinion shaping institutions?[/QUOTE]

Of course. But thatÃÂ´s daydreaming, no? :confused:

Valley Forge

2004-06-03 04:03 | User Profile

Why is it day dreaming?

What, exactly, makes the idea impractical?

Here's a hint, my friend -- the Nazis had something to say about them.

[QUOTE=Paleoleftist]Of course. But thatÃÂ´s daydreaming, no? :confused:[/QUOTE]

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 04:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Valley Forge]Why is it day dreaming?

What, exactly, makes the idea impractical?

Here's a hint, my friend -- the Nazis had something to say about them.[/QUOTE]

You believe you could spread the Christian message with Nazi tactics? Either I donÃÂ´t get you, or you are pulling my leg. :lol:

Walter Yannis

2004-06-03 05:00 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Paleoleftist]You believe you could spread the Christian message with Nazi tactics? Either I donÃÂ´t get you, or you are pulling my leg. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Why not?

It's not like it hasn't been done before. The Holy Inquisition springs to mind. There are other precedents.

Have you seen Andrei Rublev, by the way?

It's on Ygg's classic list. One of the themes in there are the Nazi tactics used by the Orthodox Church vis a vis Russian pagans.

Regards,

Walter

Walter Yannis

2004-06-03 05:03 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ruffin]Are you a very old vet, Walter, or do you write for WND?[/QUOTE]

I was speaking of America in general and the Yannis clan in particular. So the use of the first person plural pronoun was quite appropriate.

But this was of course clear from the context of the conversation, and so your question would appear to imply that you do not identify with America in those actions. I can relate to that. Certainly America's imperial actions since the end of the Cold War are hard to justify, and I personally don't want to identify with them.

But do you not identify with the America that fought WWII? Was the landing on Normandy not something you would use the pronoun "we" to describe?

More generally, what group - what "we" - do you identify with?

Madrussian: you aren't an American, but it's a question I'd like to pose to you as well. Do you consider yourself to be a Russian patriot?

Walter

Ruffin

2004-06-03 05:27 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]I was speaking of America in general and the Yannis clan in particular. So the use of the first person plural pronoun was quite appropriate.

But do you not identify with the America that fought WWII? Was the landing on Normandy not something you would use the pronoun "we" to describe?

More generally, what group - what "we" - do you identify with?[/QUOTE]

The overemphasis on "we" reminded me of something out of a Horowitz publication.

I'm a white man without a country.

Walter Yannis

2004-06-03 06:32 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Ruffin]The overemphasis on "we" reminded me of something out of a Horowitz publication.

I'm a white man without a country.[/QUOTE]

I don't think my use of the pronoun "we" overemphasized the matter - I simply identify very strongly with America until very recently.

The question of identity is something I urge you to think about in terms of Catholic teaching. You say that you are a "white man without a country."

Okay. But "white man" isn't a national identity. "White man" is only a single component of a national identity.

Nations are defined by the indicia of blood, culture (and all culture flows from "cult"), and sovereign territory. Each of these defines and prop up the others.

The American nation is a Europe, Christian and English-speaking society occupying the large middle swath of the North American continent. That's who we are.

If you feel that you don't have a country, I beseech you to ask youself whether your rejection of the Christian relgion - which forms the CULTural matrix within which our European bloodlines adhere - is the very thing that cost you your country.

Join us, Ruffin. We need you. Leave aside these destructive foreign notions that have naught to do with our American identity. If you can't embrace the Gospel, at least embrace the idea of an overwhelmingly Christian America.

That, my friend, is sure to bring you home to us, where you belong.

Walter

Ruffin

2004-06-03 07:02 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]I don't think my use of the pronoun "we" overemphasized the matter - I simply identify very strongly with America until very recently.

The question of identity is something I urge you to think about in terms of Catholic teaching. You say that you are a "white man without a country."

Okay. But "white man" isn't a national identity. "White man" is only a single component of a national identity.

Nations are defined by the indicia of blood, culture (and all culture flows from "cult"), and sovereign territory. Each of these defines and prop up the others.

The American nation is a Europe, Christian and English-speaking society occupying the large middle swath of the North American continent. That's who we are.

That, my friend, is sure to bring you home to us, where you belong.

Walter[/QUOTE]

No, arrogant zealots who reject, or kill all who don't embrace their government, in lands not their own, are what cost me my country.

I do think it's interesting that someone who rejects the self-governing principle of secession prescribes divorce for a "movement".

Join us, Walter. Leave aside these divisive notions that have naught to do with our European heritage. Discard this dangerous semitic hocus-pocus that imprisons your soul and separates you from seriousness.

That, my friend, is sure to bring you home to us.

Edmund

(Franco, where's that 'Feelings' tape?)

il ragno

2004-06-03 07:03 | User Profile

[QUOTE]This is the Brave New World of proud faggotry, abortion rights, eugenics, genetic engineering, and cool witchcraft specials on MTV. It's time to accept Reality[tm] or get left behind. [/QUOTE]

As long as it ain't [I]your [/I] behind, I think I'll take my chances.

Franco

2004-06-03 07:06 | User Profile

(Franco, where's that 'Feelings' tape?)

Can't find it. I'll just hum it...

Walter Yannis

2004-06-03 07:08 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Wintermute's BoyToy]Walter,

 Aren't you ready to join the New Order? Christianity is pass[size=-1]ÃÂ©[/size]; get enlightened already. You see, the Founding Fathers were fighting for the right of Christ-killers, tree worshippers, witches and pagans of all stripes to worship in peace. But not Christians, because you're just too damn intolerant. Diversity is what America needs. This is the Brave New World of proud faggotry, abortion rights, eugenics, genetic engineering, and cool witchcraft specials on MTV. It's time to accept Reality[tm] or get left behind.

 Wintermute's BoyToy[/QUOTE]

That was weak.

I can't believe the very formidible Wintermute would find you in the least way attractive.

Wintermute is a pagan, but he's a pagan with lots of class.

You have no class, and I just can't believe Wintermute - even in his cups - would have slummed it with the likes of you.

No offense intended, of course.

Warmest regards,

Walter

Walter Yannis

2004-06-03 07:11 | User Profile

QUOTE[/QUOTE]

That's an appropriate choice for your side, actually.

Barry Manilow could be your court poet.

He writes the songs, man.

Walter

il ragno

2004-06-03 07:31 | User Profile

Why not PM Wintermute himself, O Pasha of the Poop-Chute? He's on the board right now, and I'm sure he'd like to hear from you.

Or do you prefer sullying people's names only when their backs are turned?

Texas Dissident

2004-06-03 08:01 | User Profile

I think we've had enough of the sideshow now.

Sorry BoyToy, but based on what I explained to you was not acceptable previously (and of course your current screen name which is only meant to inflame and insult), you've got to go. I will say that at times it seemed you had something substantive to offer the discussions taking place, but you will have to come back in a more subtle manner and toned way down. Just for one thing, AntiYuppie is a long-time personal acquaintance and close confidant of mine and no member here is going to try and drive a wedge between that.

Just in case you feel unduly singled out, please be sure I will be requesting the same of some on the "other side", as well. Though you seemingly supported traditional Christianity, we have to make double sure we conduct ourselves in a manner above reproach.

il ragno

2004-06-03 17:17 | User Profile

[QUOTE]I will say that at times it seemed you had something substantive to offer the discussions taking place, but you will have to come back in a more subtle manner and toned way down. [/QUOTE]

This is "Wintermute's Boy Toy"/"Jeanne d'Arc"/"Raina" you're referring to.

Can I presume that Fade the Butcher and Friedrich Braun are [I]also [/I] encouraged to return "in a more subtle manner"? I don't recall either of them posting AY's home address or making endless references to being buggered by forum members. Would they have to "tone it way down" too?

il ragno

2004-06-03 18:10 | User Profile

Yeah, well....[I]irony[/I], and all that.

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 22:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Why not?

It's not like it hasn't been done before. The Holy Inquisition springs to mind. There are other precedents. [/QUOTE]

I still have an inkling that, at this point in our history, taking back the Churches using a slightly less rambo-style method may work better.

Inquisitors may be needed in an emergency, but itÃÂ´s the Saints (and the Diplomats) upon which the ChurchÃÂ´s long-term succcesses have been built.

And when the Churches, both Catholic and Protestant, have been taken back, what support will there be left for Zionism?

Valley Forge

2004-06-03 22:31 | User Profile

That wintermute boy toy jerk posted AY's home address?

Damn that makes me angry.

Can there be any doubt the ADL/SPLC is behind this?

[QUOTE=il ragno]This is "Wintermute's Boy Toy"/"Jeanne d'Arc"/"Raina" you're referring to.

Valley Forge

2004-06-03 22:35 | User Profile

AY, not to joke about a potentially serious matter (having one's personal info posted), but since it looks like the enemy regards your writings as enough of a threat to warrant keeping tabs on you, I want to offer my congratulations. This is just more proof that ideas are our best weapons. Maybe you'll make the ADL's 40 people to watch list next.

[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]Even making the comparison is an insult to both Fade and Friedrich.[/QUOTE]

Paleoleftist

2004-06-03 22:46 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Current93]The signature I had at the time of posting the message was this:

**"Whatever the verdict of this court I shall be held innocent before the Judgment Seat of Christ." --RUDOLF HESS **

The signature was then changed to: **We wish to fill our culture once more with the spirit of Christianity -- but not only in theory. --A. Hitler **

So to alleviate any future misunderstanding by other jew trolls I will once again, finally, change the signature back to the original Hess quote.[/QUOTE]

Explanation accepted. But would you kindly stop flaming me? I am neither one of the above nor the other, and I didnÃÂ´t flame you.

I am still intrigued by the inconsistency between your new age title and your claim that the proponents of your worldview are Christians. Do you mean "Christians" in some obscurantist sense where Buddhists, occultists and whatnot would count as Christians, or do you mean Christians in the sense of the Nicaean Creed? While we are at it, have you ever heard of the Nicaean Creed? :unsure:

il ragno

2004-06-04 21:11 | User Profile

[QUOTE]AY, not to joke about a potentially serious matter (having one's personal info posted), but since it looks like the enemy regards your writings as enough of a threat to warrant keeping tabs on you, I want to offer my congratulations. [/QUOTE]

Are you kidding? Anti-Yuppie's the best there is. If he's on Tribal Radar, it's likely because he's that rarity in WN circles - someone who's universally liked and respected.

Valley Forge

2004-06-04 22:29 | User Profile

I don't disagree. Now that William Pierce has passed on, I think AY is leading intellectual of our movement.

[QUOTE=il ragno]Are you kidding? Anti-Yuppie's the best there is. If he's on Tribal Radar, it's likely because he's that rarity in WN circles - someone who's universally liked and respected.[/QUOTE]