← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · friedrich braun
Thread ID: 13682 | Posts: 9 | Started: 2004-05-13
2004-05-13 20:17 | User Profile
And please state your reasons.
My vote goes to Luther because, [I]inter alia[/I], he was a superior theologian.
2004-05-13 20:23 | User Profile
Luther still allowed images of Christ in his church, no?
2004-05-13 22:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=xmetalhead]Luther still allowed images of Christ in his church, no?[/QUOTE]
Correct--Luther was not an iconoclast. Also, the Lutheran version of the Ten Commandments is the same as the Augustinian/Roman Catholic one.
[url=http://messiahkenosha.org/beliefs/crucifix.htm]On Crucifixes[/url]
As for why I chose Luther:
1) Luther's doctrine of single predestination--that God predestines the elect to salvation, but does not preordain anyone to damnation. The only reason men are able to have faith is through the work of the Holy Spirit. (Calvin preached double predestination, which I believe has had a detrimental effect in the worldviews and evangelization efforts of some Calvinists.)
2) Luther's belief in the Real Presence in Communion ("This is my body....") . Calvinists believe the Sacraments are only "symbols" of God's grace.
3) Luther's "Two Kingdoms" doctrine: Chrisitans are both citizens of Heaven and citizens of earth under temporal authority and with civic responsibilities. When Lutheranism is properly practiced in a "free" church (one not yoked to civil government as in a state church), Lutherans properly discern the Biblically-defined roles of Church (saving souls) and State (maintaining order). When these roles are confused, as is often the case among Calvinists and American Evangelicals, the results are counterproductive. When the Religious Right confuses the Bible's roles of Church and State, spending all that effort, time, money and energy to pass laws to make people behave in a more moral manner, it still does not make a country any more "Christian" and compromises the Great Commission. Real moral change can only happen when the Holy Spirit changes the hearts of men.
4) Luther's lower view of the Moral Law than Calvin's. A "bad fruit" as I see it in Reformed/Evangelical/Fundamentalist circles is "fencing the law" with all sorts of do's and don'ts that aren't even in Scripture. The net effect is that the Gospel is reduced to Law, which flies in the face of Sola Gratia. Ironically, even though the history books often paint Calvin as some sort of dour, pious man, he was considerably more liberal than some of his modern adherants with respect to enjoying earthly pleasures such as alcohol.
Some good reading on the Lutheran perspective of Law and Gospel:
[url=http://www.faithlutheranchurch.org/00sermons/03-26-00.htm]The V-Chip [/url]
[url=http://www.higherthings.org/imgs/content/ReformedText.htm]Resting in Christ / Why the Reformed think Lutherans are second-class Christians[/url], By Dr. Gene Edward Veith
If anyone ever wanted a brief summary of what confessional Lutherans believe, I can think of no better document than the [url=http://www.lcrusa.org/brief_statement.htm]Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod[/url], (c) 1932, Concordia Publishing House
2004-05-14 06:09 | User Profile
Thank you Centinel for a very informative post.
2004-05-14 21:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=friedrich braun]Thank you Centinel for a very informative post.[/QUOTE]
If you don't mind me inquiring, friedrich, what exactly were you looking for with this thread?
I thought your interest in such matters went, shall we say, in the opposite direction.
2004-05-14 23:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]If you don't mind me inquiring, friedrich, what exactly were you looking for with this thread?
I thought your interest in such matters went, shall we say, in the opposite direction.[/QUOTE]
Well, I am very much interested in theological questions and I am fascinated by religious leaders -- especially Luther. I am also Lutheran and I would like to learn more about that particular tradition, and I think Centinel can help me. I have also been attending Sunday services for the past 2-3 months and I am enjoying it.
2004-05-15 00:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=friedrich braun]Well, I am very much interested in theological questions and I am fascinated by religious leaders -- especially Luther. I am also Lutheran and I would like to learn more about that particular tradition, and I think Centinel can help me. I have also been attending Sunday services for the past 2-3 months and I am enjoying it.[/QUOTE]
That's oustanding, friedrich. Based on past exchanges we've had, I have to honestly say that I'm shocked. Pleasantly shocked, but shocked nonetheless. Praise God.
I'm always thrilled to come across another Lutheran brother here, so if you need anything at all please don't hesitate to ask me. You've made a good contact if you're consulting with Centinel. He's helped me on numerous occasions as I transitioned into the LCMS and is a quite knowledgeable fellow in these matters. I know that I am in his debt. Having one's eyes opened to the pure Gospel of the Reformation is a glorious experience and please know that my prayers will be with you. Best regards and God bless.
2004-05-15 05:33 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]That's oustanding, friedrich. Based on past exchanges we've had, I have to honestly say that I'm shocked. Pleasantly shocked, but shocked nonetheless. Praise God.
I'm always thrilled to come across another Lutheran brother here, so if you need anything at all please don't hesitate to ask me. You've made a good contact if you're consulting with Centinel. He's helped me on numerous occasions as I transitioned into the LCMS and is a quite knowledgeable fellow in these matters. I know that I am in his debt. Having one's eyes opened to the pure Gospel of the Reformation is a glorious experience and please know that my prayers will be with you. Best regards and God bless.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the kind words.
Yes, I have already printed out several articles posted by Centinel and I even emailed a few to my pastor. I plan to get the Works of Luther soon as well (I saw them at a second hand bookstore today, they were in perfect condition -- although the price was fairly steep). I'm also looking for a good, respectful biography.
2004-05-15 06:20 | User Profile
Calvin, of those two--though as a Traditional Anglican, I'd have chosen Cranmer...and, my next reading will be The Principles of Theology by WH Giffith Thomas on the 39 Articles, which my bishop directed me to.
I know more about Calvin, and his influences on the South and those I've been 'listening' to lateley--Dabney, Knox, C. Greg Singer, etc. and SermonAudio.com. I know far less about Luther and less about his theology. I'm reading through Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and find little fault with it, though my priest finds Calvin a bit 'legalistic' as one post noted above. As a Southron Nationalist, I'm keeping for my catching up and de-brainwashing from the Secular Humanist state religion of the Evil Empire's public schools with the Anglo-Celtic Tradition for now, though in future I definitely want to study more on Luther, and my church library has Bondage of the Will, if that is the correct title by Luther...
:D