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The Khazar Theory ... Only a Theory? By Gabrielle LaFoote

Thread ID: 13415 | Posts: 22 | Started: 2004-04-28

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Gabrielle [OP]

2004-04-28 12:44 | User Profile

[url]http://www.regmeister.net/khazars.htm[/url]

R. Belser claims that the idea of most of today’s jewry being Khazars is merely a "Khazar theory" and “ridiculous” in her article, “Why the Khazar Theory is Absurd”. In the second paragraph of her write-up, where she states her proof, she makes the false assumption that today’s jews are the jews of the Bible (i.e. the twelve tribes of Israel); she is, of course, wrong. R.Belser’s entire argument basically comes from the jewish liberal author Jon Entine. Below are quotes from many different sources to prove that she is wrong about who the Israelites are as well as the “Khazar Theory.”

‘Abraham's seed were to be as "The sands of the sea" as promised in GENESIS 22:17, In GENESIS 24:60 Rebekah, Isaac's wife, was promised to be "mother of thousands of millions." At the time of the Exodus, Moses prophesied to Israel that Yahweh was t o make of them "a thousand times so many as ye are." (DEUT 1:11) There were over 3,000,000 Israelites then, and over 15,000,000 at the time of David, yet you insist that 15,000,000 jews today, 3000 years after David, are "all of Israel!"’ writes a Christian website, accurately.

‘In the book of Esther, when the king sent out the decree to protect the "jews" (who were the Judahites of the Babylonian captivity), "many of the people of the land BECAME jews: for the fear of the jews fell upon them." (ESTHER 8:17) This king ruled "from India unto Ethiopia" compassing the territory occupied by the Hittites, Hivites, Jebusites and Canaanites, so it is probable that tens of thousands of these people collectively known as "EDOM" professed the name "jew" to escape the king's wrath. They were NOT descendants of Jacob-Israel, though they had now become "jews." This was 500 years BEFORE Christ.

Coming down through history to near the time of Christ we find that Flavius Josephus states that the "Idumeans" (Edomites) became part of "jewry," as we have seen from the book of ESTHER. This would explain why some "jews" believed in Yahshua, and other "jews" hated Him. Those who believed were simply the ones of Israelite ancestry; while those who hated Him were of Esau-Edom! “

‘The BIBLICA ENCYCLOPEDIA, Vol. 2, Col. 1187, says that the Edomites are part of Jewry. The scientist and historian Dr. David Davidson wrote: "Indeed the Edomites later became completely absorbed in jewry and under their aggressive intrusion the jews became racially the medium of expression for the Edomite ideal for which Herod the Great had first given political formation. The Edomite intrusion into judaism AT EVERY HISTORICAL POINT OF CONTACT is fully discussed in the volumes of the Camb ridge Ancient History. The History of the latest phase of the intrusion (absorption or inter-marriage) is in the summary of the Encyclopedia Biblica, Volume 2, Col 1187 (he then quotes that). Even the fact that the Edomites have at length BECOME jEWS was soon completely forgotten by the exponents of jewish tradition." (It is this "tradition" which Christian ministers have been tricked into preaching instead of the truth.)’

‘The jewish ENCYCLOPEDIA, edition of 1925, Vol. 5, page 41, states "Edom is in modern Jewry."’

‘H. G. Wells, in his great OUTLINE OF HISTORY verifies what we have just read, that millenniums ago the Edomites became "jews." But then he goes on and gives us another trial to follow in correctly identifying the people today "who call themselves jews." He says that these "Idumeans" joined with a "Turkish" people of Southern Russia (the Khazars), who also "became jews," and BOTH make up the present day "jews." Mr. Wells concludes, "The main part of jewry NEVER WAS IN JUDEA AND HAD NEVER COME OUT OF JUDEA!" (emphasis added)’

‘Prof. Roland B. Dixon, of Harvard, wrote in 1923, "The most important single factor, however, in the differentiation of these jews of the Asiatic borderland...WAS THE CONVERSION TO judaism IN THE EIGHTH CENTURY OF THE KHAZARS. In these (Khazars )...We may in all probability see the origin of the great mass of the east European jews of today."’

‘Nathan M. Pollock, A Khazar-jew, spent 40 years researching the origin of his fellow "jews". He says that six out of ten in Palestine, AND NINE OUT OF TEN IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE (AMERICA) ARE NOT REAL jewS, BUT DESCENDANTS OF THE FIERCE KHAZ AR TRIBES WHICH ROAMED THE STEPPES OF SOUTHERN RUSSIA MANY CENTURIES AGO." He states that the names Halperin, Halpern, Alpert, Galpern, etc. are 100% Khazar. Also Kaplan, Caplon, Koppel, Kogan, Kaganovich (Russianized) and similar derivative names. (THE jewS THAT AREN'T, San Diego Union. Aug 28, 1966) His findings, and many others too numerous to list in this tract, corroborate the Khazar ancestry of most modern "jews."’

‘The Khazar-jews of Europe and America have always had an affinity to their Mongol brethren of Asia. The jewish movie "czars" of filthy, corrupting Hollywood are often called "moguls," a term dating back to the Khan "Moguls," or "rulers," of Genghis Khan. It is simply a Mongol identification, NOT an Israelite one.’

‘In Harmsworth's HISTORY OF THE WORLD is a section on "The Hebrew Peoples" written by Dr. H. Winckler, L.M. King, Dr. R. G. Brandis, and H. R. Hall. On pages 1781-4, Vol. 3 they show that, "judaism was not evolved in Judah; it was in Babylon th at judaism first became that which it was and still is." In other words, judaism, rather than being the religion of ancient Israel, as you tell your flock, IS THE RELIGION OF ISRAEL'S ANCIENT, PAGAN ENEMY, BABYLON!’

‘In the same book above the same authors say the distinction between Israel and Judah "can best be expressed in the phrase, which may sound paradoxical, but yet aptly characterizes the true relationship of the two people: THE ISRAELITES WERE NOT jewS!" (emphasis added)’

Taken from Stormfront’s Theology section: ‘by a Jew himself, Mr Alfred M Lilienthal in his book "What Price Israel”:

"The Jewish racial myth flows from the fact that the words Hebrew, Israelite, Jew, Judaism, and the Jewish people have been used synonymously to suggest a historic continuity. But this is a misuse. These words refer to different periods in history. Hebrew is a term correctly applied to the period from the beginning of Biblical history to the settling of Canaan. Israelite refers correctly to the members of the twelve tribes of Israel. The name Yehudi or "Jew" is used in the Old Testament to designate the descendants of the fourth son of Jacob, as well as to denote citizens of the Kingdom of Judah, particularly at the time of Jeremiah and under the Persian occupation. Centuries later, the same word came to be applied to ANYONE, no matter of what origin, whose religion was Judaism." (Author’s emphasis).

The Khazar jews and their descendents today comprise 90% of all jews in Israel, the Shepardic jews being the other 10%. The Zionists after WWII conspired to allow for the term "jews" to be applied to any and all persons claiming a true heritage to Israel regardless of blood line or other qualification, the "right of return" could be based on essentially any claim -spiiritual, physical or religious. In other words a "jew" is anybody WE say a jew is and the WORLD bought it!

Today the duped and deceived continue to advance this mythology by buying into this outrageous claim, unfortunately many supposed Christians also advance it like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, to the great delight of the "jew" imposters themselves.

Abraham and his descendents were NOT "jews" nor was Moses nor King David or even all those so called "jews" during Jesus's time on the earth. Some members of the descendents of Jacob were called "jews" and this unfortunately became a slang word applied to any and all who embraced it's tenets.

The failure of modern educators and Christian theologians, (not to mention the followers of modern day Judaism) to illustrate this disception has allowed great confusion and even "blindness" to cloud all those who believe in the Zionist myth of a "jewish" origin to the Scriptures.

Of course having been informed of their erroneous thinking, and then to continue to base their arguments on THAT premise can lead to only one conclusion: They are willing lackeys of the jew deception and seem to even thrive on it.....’

The Jew Arthur Koestler wrote a very revealing book about the Khazar ancestry of today’s so-called jews. His book is “The Thirteenth Tribe,” and it is a must-read for anyone interested in the truth! (BTW, Koestler was counted a traitor amongst the jewish society, and he and his wife were mysteriously found dead, both shot in the head, in his London apartment a few years after the book was published…) His book proves, most excellently, that our modern day ‘jews’ have very little true Semitic blood in them at all!

Furthermore, in H.G. Wells, “The Outline of History,” on page 666, in the second paragraph, he states “Behind the Hungarians and Bulgarians thrust the Khazars, a Turkish people, with whom were mingled a very considerable proportion of Jews who been expelled from Constantinople, and who had mixed with them and made great settlements of Jews in Poland and Russia. Behind the Khazars again, and overrunning them, were the Petschenegs (or Patzinaks), a savage Turkish people who are first of in the ninth century, and who were destined to dissolve and vanish as the kindred Huns did five centuries before.”

Taken from the Khazaria Info Center ([url]www.khazaria.com[/url]), Jewish History in Eastern Europe: ‘Jewish Genetics: Abstracts and Summaries A collection of abstracts and reviews of books, articles, and genetic studies “This section is the most comprehensive summary of Jewish genetic data. In recent years, advances in genetic technology and the broadening in scope of genetic studies to encompass more ethnic groups have allowed scientists to come to more accurate conclusions. Nevertheless, not all questions have been answered fully, and followup studies are necessary. At the present time, it is known that Eastern European Jews have a significant Eastern Mediterranean element which manifests itself in a close relationship with Kurdish, Armenian, Palestinian Arab, Lebanese, Syrian, and Anatolian Turkish peoples. At the same time, there are traces of European (including Western Slavic) and Khazar ancestry among European Jews. Ethiopian Jews mostly descend from Ethiopian Africans who converted to Judaism, but may also be related to a lesser extent to Yemenite Jews. Yemenite Jews descend from Arabs and Israelites. North African Jewish and Kurdish Jewish paternal lineages come from Israelites. Additional research is necessary, and it will certainly take several more years to sort it all out. All existing studies fail to compare modern Jewish populations' DNA to ancient Judean DNA and medieval Khazarian DNA, and many of them focus on paternal ancestries rather than maternal ancestries, so the extrapolations and assumptions made by geneticists may not necessarily be correct. Studies that do take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally.’

Basically, her entire flawed argument is easily proven wrong, from the very beginning of, and all throughout, her article, as she wrongly asserts that today’s so-called Jews are the twelve tribes of the Bible, i.e. God’s chosen ones.

Of course, the fake jews love to mix with white women, and have for centuries. CI is not saying that today’s jews are all Khazars. For the most part, they are a mixed blooded people, but they are not the true Israelites or the Biblical tribe of Judah, which is one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

God’s people hear His voice and they follow Him. Who has been following Christ for the last two thousand years? White Christian Israelites.

[url]http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/sfexaminer_winokur.htm[/url]

And, as far as Entine, Belser’s major source, he is a self-proclaimed ‘mild mannered Jewish liberal.’ Scott Winokur says, when interviewing him about his book, Taboo, “I asked Entine if he regretted anything about his controversial book. Tears came to his eyes; they seemed genuine. "I learned about the insensitivity I have naturally as a white man," he said. "I don't think the book is sensitive to the nature of being a minority and being put into a box to what it means, every day, to be black in America. You can be a brain surgeon or basketball player, and people treat you the same way." ” Entine also states "What I'm saying is that the success of any athlete comes from hard work, but I want to acknowledge the evolutionary advantages of blacks...” And, "Science does not support the notion that blacks are less intelligent."

Please note that Miss Belser is quite confident and comfortable with the words of a liberal JEW who had genuine tears in his eyes for the ‘poor Negroes,’ and who plainly states ‘science does not support the notion that blacks are less intelligent...’ But notice what she has to say about sincere white people – who, if she were correct (which she is not), would be simply mistaken in what they believe.

Below are two of Miss Belser’s quotes, showing her rather strange prejudices towards CI.

“The appeal of the theory to die-hard Christians is easy enough to understand; it permits them to eat their metaphysical cake and have it, too: i.e., they can oppose the Jews -- since the Jews of the last 1300 years are supposedly not the "real" Jews -- while keeping Jesus (who was a Jew but not a "Khazar," etc....)”

“In fact, such people often inadvertently class themselves with outright cranks, such as those in the Christian Identity camp, whose take on such questions would be amusing if it weren't tarring us by association.”

If it were not so sad, it truly would be laughable that R. Belser stakes her whole argument, and slanders sincere white Christians, on the words of a liberal Jew who assures us with genuine tears in his eyes that science does not support the notion that blacks are less intelligent!

Mr. Entine says, "I learned about the insensitivity I have naturally as a white man"; let us hope Miss Belser realizes (no tears necessary) her insensitivity towards her white kindred

Another article worth reading on this subject can be found here:

[url]http://www.dowz.net/letters/29feb04steven.html[/url]

Ponce

2004-04-28 16:30 | User Profile

Thanks Gabrielle, lots of good leads for me to follow,,,,,, I love to learn more about those people who call themselves "Jew" and thanks to the Internet I am doing so.

I like the part where someone says that Jew is a "slang" word for anyone who wants to be a Jew.

Only by learning can we unveil the lies of those who try to make us believe that which is not.

"When the truth comes into the light, the lies will hide in the dark",,, Ponce

Petr

2004-04-28 18:11 | User Profile

I have been planning a quite large project on this matter, to prove that Ashkenazi Jews are to a very large degree - though not 100 % - descended from Khazars.

My main proof will be one that I believe almost everyone else has missed.

The strongest point against Khazar-theory is probably that Ostjuden spoke German-derived Yiddish. In order to prove that Ashkenazim are really Khazars, you've got to prove that they have some remainders from their Turkic past, and I believe that I've found "the smoking gun."

It is quite easy, really. Many of the most common Ashkenazi surnames are pure Turkish - not Hebrew, German, Slavic or any other origin.

I plan to make a really long list, but here you have some examples:

[COLOR=Blue]Arik

Alper

Kagan (Kaganovich)

Kaplan

Karluk

Karman

Kattan

Kurgan

Balaban

Bashe (as in Isaac Bashevis Singer)

Balint

Berke (Berkowitz)

Balkan (The Balkan peninsula was named by Turks)

Baiker (Pauker, Peker)

Baskin (as in Baskin-Robbins)[/COLOR]

Besides personal names, the word "yarmulka" is a Turkic word, and the skullcap itself is of Turkish origin - Uzbek Muslims wear the same kind of caps even today, and it is also noteworthy that Sephardic Jews didn't use yarmulka until last century, when they moved to Israel and came under Ashkenazi influence.

Once you study it a little bit, you learn to recognize that Turanian Central Asian sound...

Here's a test: take this list of Ashkenazi surnames from a Minsk area and try to recognize how many of them are Turkic.

[url]http://www.jewishgen.org/belarus/minsk_uyezd_surnames.htm[/url]

Petr

Smedley Butler

2004-04-28 19:16 | User Profile

This thread is solid Gold-stein... Good work.

Petr

2004-04-28 20:09 | User Profile

And yes Gabrielle, I also often wonder how these anti-Christian WNs, who usually tend to sneer at all Holocaust claims made by Jewish scholars, suddenly completely, uncritically, accept the Talmudic "party line" how that HUGE concentration of of "Ostjuden" in the Pale of the Settlement came to be.

The fact is, it is a sheer STATISTICAL IMPOSSIBILITY that few wretched Jew refugees from the West (Germany and France) could have alone spawned the Ashkenazi population that rose to many millions at the end of the 19th century. Those fearless Holocaust-skeptics are quiet on THIS numerical preposterousness.

The obvious motivation for this denial is the same as with all skeptics: the Khazar-Ashkenazim connection would look uncomfortably like the complete fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-39, and skeptics hate to think that the Holy Bible is correct even on some detail - it makes them wonder whether they have "backed the wrong horse."

Anyways, here you have a scholarly article by Finnish scholar Antero Leitzinger, where he more or less accept Koestler's thesis, and adds some extra details of his own.

Leitzinger is a mainstream scholar with neocon tendencies, and not a Christian. (He is not Jewish either - many Finns have Jewish-sounding surnames like Silverberg...)

[url]http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~aphamala/pe/issue2/kazar.htm[/url]

"The Heritage of the Khazars in Europe

By Antero Leitzinger

In this excerpt Leitzinger comments on that statistical anomaly that I mentioned before:

[COLOR=Blue]"In the historical documents, after the destruction of the Khazar Empire, individual Jews are mentioned in Hungary (1154), Kiev (about 1160) and Chernigov (1181). About in this time the Jews had been expelled from England (in 1096), and in Germany they only lived in the cities along the Rhine, in Magdeburg and Merseburg on the Elbe (from the 900s on), and in the Bavarian city of Regensburg.

[COLOR=Red]Although Merseburg had some importance in populating Bohemia, and the Magdeburg court ruled in many Polish cities from the 1200s onwards, the Jews would not seem to have had such a role and settlement that it would explain the massive Jewish settlement in Poland-Lithuania. As Koestler has pointed out, there was an anxiously large vacuum between the West European Sephards and the East European Ashkenazies, considering Jewish immigration."[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Hope this helps,

Petr

Franco

2004-04-29 02:43 | User Profile

I once believed the Khazar theory. I no longer do. That theory allows some Jews to say, "we do not all act alike and think alike, because some of us are not Khazars."

Jews are Jews are Jews. Modern DNA tests show that.

Walter Yannis

2004-04-29 07:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Franco]I once believed the Khazar theory. I no longer do. That theory allows some Jews to say, "we do not all act alike and think alike, because some of us are not Khazars."

Jews are Jews are Jews. Modern DNA tests show that.

---------[/QUOTE]

Could you please link to the modern day tests?

I seem to be getting conflicting information on this point.

On one hand there indeed seems to be a common "Jewish" genetic marker that is common to both Ashkenazi and Sephardim.

But on the other hand, if you look at the genetic distance calculator you'll see that Ashkenazi Jews, Armenians, Georgians, and Greeks bunch up pretty closely, which would indicate an origin in Khazaria. The Turks were a mixed race group from the beginning - Eurasians. Look at the modern day Uzbeks, for example. I'll bet that the Khazars were more of a Caucasian group like the Armenians and Georgians (which would make sense since Khazaria is located north of there, with the Russian city of Belogorod at its center). I'm speculating, of course.

Maybe one of our more enlightened interlocutors could set me straight on this.

Walter

Petr

2004-04-29 09:43 | User Profile

Your attitude smacks as irrationalism to me, Franco.

Personally, I wouldnt let some DNA tests come between me and common sense. Those millions of "Ostjuden" couldn't have all entered the Pale of the Settlement from the West - they had to be there already.

I believe there is a lot of pseudo-science involved in genetic testing, and their results are easy to explain in one way or another - especially when they are performed by Jewish scientists intending to prove the purity of their race.

But anyways, the latest DNA test supports the Khazar hypothesis!

[url]http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-cohen-levite.html[/url]

Excerpt:[COLOR=Blue]

"Nicholas Wade. "Geneticists Report Finding Central Asian Link to Levites."

The New York Times (September 27, 2003): A2. Excerpts:

"A team of geneticists studying the ancestry of Jewish communities has found an unusual genetic signature that occurs in more than half the Levites of Ashkenazi descent. ... The genetic signature occurs on the male or Y chromosome and comes from a few men, or perhaps a single ancestor, who lived about 1,000 years ago... The new report, published in the current issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics, was prepared by population geneticists in Israel, the United States and England... They say that 52 percent of Levites of Ashkenazi origin have a particular genetic signature that originated in Central Asia, although it is also found less frequently in the Middle East. The ancestor who introduced it into the Ashkenazi Levites could perhaps have been from the Khazars, a Turkic tribe whose king converted to Judaism in the eighth or ninth century, the researchers suggest. Their reasoning is that the signature, a set of DNA variations known as R1a1, is common in the region north of Georgia that was once occupied by the Khazar kingdom. The signature did reach the Near East, probably before the founding of the Jewish community, but it is still rare there. ... The present descendants of the Khazars have not been identified. ... If the patrilineal descent of the two priestly castes had indeed been followed as tradition describes, then... all Levites [should be descended] from Levi, the third son of the patriarch Jacob. ... But the picture among the Levites was less clear, suggesting that they had a mixed ancestry. Dr. Hammer and Dr. Skorecki returned to the puzzle for their new report, based on data gathered from nearly 1,000 men of Ashkenazi and Sephardi origin and neighboring non-Jewish populations. ... The paternal ancestry of the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Levites is different, unlike the Cohanim from the two branches... "[/COLOR]

And:

[COLOR=Red]Neil Bradman, Dror Rosengarten, and Karl L. Skorecki. "The Origins of Ashkenazic Levites: Many Ashkenazic Levites Probably Have a Paternal Descent from East Europeans or West Asians." Proceedings of the 6th International Conference on Ancient DNA and Associated Biomolecules, July 21-25, 2002. Abstract excerpt:

"...Levite haplotype distributions were compared with distributions in Israelite Jews and candidate source populations (north Germans and two groups of Slavonic language speakers). The Ashkenazic Levites were most similar to the Sorbians, the most westerly Slavonic speaking group... Comparisons of the Ashkenazic Levite dataset with the other groups studied suggest that Y chromosome haplotypes, present at high frequency in Ashkenazic Levites, are most likely to have an east European or west Asian origin and not to have originated in the Middle East." [/COLOR]

Petr

Petr

2004-04-29 11:15 | User Profile

And hey, speaking of names of Turanian origin, let's not forget an old friend of ours!

Has anyone seen the Akira Kurosawa film where Russian officer befriends a Mongolian hunter named DERSU UZALA in Siberia?

( [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303196543/inktomi-videoasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/103-4953162-1308604[/url] )

[COLOR=Blue]ALAN DERSHOWITZ = ALAN, SON OF DERSU[/COLOR]

Petr

grep14w

2004-04-29 12:27 | User Profile

There was a DNA test a while back that showed that Palestinian Arabs and Jews were closely related. Jews tried to censor the academic publication that published the research.

What does it matter anyway?

Even if they have no "Khazar" ancestry at all, does not mean that the Jews of today are the same people as the ancient Israelites. Jews prior to the triumph of Christianity and then Islam, found converts all over the ancient middle east. The real center of ancient Judaism was Babylon, not Jerusalem.

There's no proof that any Jew can show that his ancestors once lived in ancient Palestine/Israel, and in any case Judaism has always been a dispersed religion, with more adherents outside of Palestine/Israel, than in it.

Whereas, if you want direct lineal descendants of the ancient Israelites, they are probably still there, in the Palestinian Arab Christians and Moslems. Jews have no "peasanty", have had none since the Roman period. What happened to them? They converted to Christianity, and many (but not all) later converted to Islam. In other words, they changed their "nation" in religious terms, but not their race/lineage.

People who naively believe myths think that the ancient Israelites/Jews were "exiled"/dispersed. Untrue. The vast majority of people were farmers living off the land; they could not be moved en masse without causing starvation and mass death (think of the Cherokee and the Trail of Tears for what would happen). Moving large numbers of people dependant on farming to survive isn't easy without modern technology.

Don't accept the Biblical myths about "exile". At most this was a small elite of aristocrats who were exiled to Babylon. The "people of the land" so despised by the Talmudic Jews were in fact the real, original inhabitants of ancient Israel/Judah. That's why they made up all kinds of lies and calumnies about them: to convice people that they, the "returning" exiles from Babylon, were the "real Israel", and not the people who had been there all along.

In a sense, today we are seeing not the first, but at least the second, attempt by Jews to ethnically cleanse the native inhabitants of Israel/Palestine - maybe the third time if the Bible stories can be believed.

Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from their land in the name of a religious myth; as such it isn't necessary to refer to the Khazar theory to question Zionist agendas. Whatever the modern Jewish racial makeup, it proves nothing at all about who the ancient Israelites were, nor would it justify what Jews were doing today even if their myth were in fact true.

Worse, the Khazar theory is used by some to postulate a "Sephardic/semitic/good Jew vs. Ashkenazi/turkic/bad Jew" dichotomy, which is ridiculous. Jews don't split that evenly into two groups, and for purposes of their behavior towards non-Jews, there is no difference at all. They act the same towards us, and always have done (as the Persians, Greeks, and Romans understood, long before anyone heard of Khazars), and as such these attempts to make distinctions based on alleged Khazar ancestry are pointless.

Walter Yannis

2004-04-29 13:18 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr]And hey, speaking of names of Turanian origin, let's not forget an old friend of ours!

Has anyone seen the Akira Kurosawa film where Russian officer befriends a Mongolian hunter named DERSU UZALA in Siberia?

( [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303196543/inktomi-videoasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/103-4953162-1308604[/url] )

[COLOR=Blue]ALAN DERSHOWITZ = ALAN, SON OF DERSU[/COLOR]

Petr[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Dersu Uzala is a great film.

But is it one for Ygg's classics list?

BTW, Dersu Uzala wasn't a Mongol, he was a Goldi - one of the small indigenous peoples of Siberia. There still are Goldis around Khabarovsk. I don't know if their language is related to Mongol.

Walter

Your points are well taken.

Should Dersu Ozala be on Ygg's classics list?

Directed by the great Akira Kurasowa, the cinematography was great, the acting brilliant, and the themes were all about the relationship between an extremely civilized Russian Army officer and the indigenous woodsman, Dersu.

What do you think?

Petr

2004-04-29 14:22 | User Profile

Well, "Dersu Uzala" is a perfect Turkish name.

The name of the president of Turkey in 1989-93: Turgut Özal (Uzala)

And "Dersu Uzala" was played by Soviet actor named Maksim Munzuk - Attila the Hun's father's name was Mundzuk.

Many Ashkenazim have simply "Turk" (or Turkel, Studs Terkel) as a surname, in spite of them or their ancestors never having lived in the Ottoman Turkey (that was a Sephardim-dominated area).

This website confirms this, and then pathetically denies the obvious implications:

[COLOR=Red]"TURK is a very common surname among Ashkenazi Jews. This name first appeared in Germany in the 16th century. "A Historical Atlas of the Jewish People", editor Eli Barnavi, Schocken Books, NY: 1992, is the source of the following excerpts:

Legends trace the origins of Polish Jewry to a Turkic people – the Khazars; however, there is no historical evidence to corroborate such theories."

[url]http://www.turkgenealogy.com/content/dna_results.htm[/url][/COLOR]

Then there is a grudging admission:

[COLOR=Red]"While there is no historical evidence tying the Khazars into Polish Jewry, there is acceptance that something less than 10% of Eastern European Ashkenazim have a Khazarian ancestry. The R1a1 haplogroup, which is associated with 54-60% of Eastern Europeans is possibly the consequence of genetic influences from Central Asia. These could be the same influences that resulted in 12.7% of Ashkenazi Jews belonging to this same haplogroup. "[/COLOR]

They are all related, you see.

God, I love linguistics!

Petr

Petr

2004-04-29 17:58 | User Profile

[COLOR=Red]"Don't accept the Biblical myths about "exile". At most this was a small elite of aristocrats who were exiled to Babylon. The "people of the land" so despised by the Talmudic Jews were in fact the real, original inhabitants of ancient Israel/Judah. That's why they made up all kinds of lies and calumnies about them: to convice people that they, the "returning" exiles from Babylon, were the "real Israel", and not the people who had been there all along."[/COLOR]

You are yourself repeating pro-Palestinian tall tales about them being original inhabitants, descendants of Philistines and such (hint: I don't necessarily have any particular sympathy for Muslims just because they are against Jews).

It was exactly those materialistic Jews that would centuries later puke out Talmudic literature that stayed in the wealthy Babylon and got infected by its ideas. The idealistic, Bible-believing Israelites obeyed the Lord and "came out of Babylon".

And as for Khazars, how do think that mass of many millions of "Ostjuden" came to be? Where did they come from? They had actually lower birthrates than the main population, and as you may have heard, were often massacred and forcibly converted.

As this New York Times article quoted by Michael Hoffman II puts it:

[COLOR=Blue]""...Even more troublesome are demographic studies indicating that during the Middle Ages there were no more than 25,000 to 35,000 Jews in Western Europe. These figures are hard to reconcile with other studies showing that by the 17th century there were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe."[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]http://www.hoffman-info.com/khazars.html[/COLOR]

Petr

Petr

2004-04-30 11:40 | User Profile

I consider this to be an advanced form of Jew-spotting: not only do I “spot a Jew”, but I also spot whether he/she carries a Turkic name inherited from his/her Khazar ancestors.

Let’s face it, Eastern European Jews had no economic or political motive whatever to “Turkify” their names – all name-changes were made towards German and later to English.

Our second case of “scratch-an-Ashkenazi, find-a-Tatar” is the not-so-sorely-missed Canadian media mogul Israel Asper.

Ukrainian Archive has a nice mug-shot of Asper here:

[COLOR=Red]http://www.ukar.org/asper/asper07.html

(Take notice how WHITE he looks like – no point in denying it. Khazar theory also neatly explains how so many Ostjuden happen to blond and blue-eyed, unlike Sephardim – Khazars forcibly converted many of their Slavic subjects[COLOR=Red].)[/COLOR]

(This article also shows nicely how quickly a convert to Judaism can be infected of its psychotic superiority complex...)[/COLOR]

But anyways, “Asper” may sound Germanic, but I believe it is not. Correct me if I’m wrong, but “Asper” doesn’t mean anything in German, the English “asp” being “die Natter” in German.

On the other hand, there is a common Turkic name “Aspar”.

Really: all it takes to comfirm these similarities is a little bit web-surfing.

An item on Turkic Bulgar Khan named “Asparukh”, fighting with his close Khazar relatives:

[COLOR=Blue] “In the early 70s of the 7th century khan Asparukh, khan Kubrat's successor, was already ruling over the realms between the Dnepr, the Donets and the Danube. After desperate defensive battles, he managed to drive the Khazars back across the Dnepr and to utterly defeat them, thus stopping their offensive westwards.”

[url]http://www.bulgaria.com/history/bulgaria/aspar.html[/url][/COLOR]

And a news item from Turkey:

[COLOR=Blue]http://www.hri.org/news/turkey/anadolu/2002/02-01-10.anadolu.html

“A passenger train derailed at Temelli station near Ankara. Sergeant Mustafa Kemal Aspar, 28, was trapped under one of the cars of the train….”[/COLOR]

Another fake Semite busted!

Petr

Walter Yannis

2004-04-30 14:23 | User Profile

Petr:

Mrs. Yannis has been reading me extracts from Solzhenitsyn's book "200 Years Together" and it's clear that Alexander Isayevich believes the Khazar theory.

Walter

Petr

2004-04-30 15:31 | User Profile

Really, Walter? Is your better half born Russian?

If I may humbly propose: would you be able to sacrifice some of your time to a worthy cause, and post here some nice translated samples from this book – like those supporting the Khazar hypothesis?

Not anything too long, just some hard-hitting excerpts.

I would appreciate much.

///////////////////////////////////

To return to the subject of Ashkenazi crypto-Turks, I believe that many obviously Turkic Ashkenazi names “pass our radar” because German and Turkish happen to have some superficial similarities – like usage of letters ü and ö, plus words ending with –er and -man.

Thus, when average Westerner sees a name like Berman, he thinks that it is simply Germanic, even though I understand “Ber” doesn’t mean anything by itself in German.

Here, in a Turkish national football team, (I took a random pick from the Net), you can find players like “Ahmet Berman” and “Candemir Berkman”:

[COLOR=Blue]http://www.angelfire.com/nj/sivritepe/6162/znta.html[/COLOR]

Or take a name like Beider – it doesn’t mean anything in German, except “both” or “either”.

(Ironically, one Alexander Beider composed a celebrated list of Ashkenazi surnames, which I should read someday.)

But what do you know, one of the commanders of Mongol army that attacked Europe in 1241 was named “Baidar”.

[COLOR=Blue]“The smaller force, 20,000 men jointly commanded by Baidar and Kaidu, the grandson of Ogadei, started off first at the beginning of March 1241 and went north into Poland to draw off any support for Hungary that might be found there.”

[url]http://www.thephora.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6600&highlight=baidar[/url][/COLOR]

And have you seen “The Midnight Express”? There is one really repulsive Turkish prisoner named “Rifki”.

Rifki (or Rifkin, Rivkind) is a very common Ashkenazi surname.

Or let’s take names like Ralph Bakshi or Leon Bakst – they contain the Turkic title of “bek” (beg, bey), meaning chieftain.

Or even a name like Acker or Ackerman (this is a bit of a stretch, but hey, isn’t this how hypothesis is built!).

You could say that it comes from “acker”, which in German means “an acre, a field”, thus referring to farming. But as we know, “Ostjuden” were not exactly famous for being into agriculture, so you could reasonably think that that name came from elsewhere.

And so it happens that Akkerman is also a Turkish surname. (“Ak” means “white” in Turkish.)

A Turkish soprano Nilgun Akkerman performing in ”Aida”:

[COLOR=Blue]http://www.bakupages.com/pubs/ai/7708_en.php[/COLOR]

From this article about Turkish choreographers, you can easily find many, many names common to Turks and Ashkenazim, like “Umit Karabel”: (Kara means “black” in Turkish). [COLOR=Blue] [url]http://interactive.m2.org/Dans/jak.html[/url][/COLOR]

(Madeleine Albright’s maiden name was “Korbel”, or so I’ve heard. Karabel – Korbel… HMMM.)

The head of the Las Vegas Hillel:

[COLOR=Red]“We debate where we stand as Jews, and think of our journey ahead. As children of Hashem [God], the students do not see themselves as tourists but as brothers and sisters in our homeland.

Abraham Karabel - University of Nevada, Las Vegas”

[url]http://cms.hillel.org/Hillel/Israel/Trips+and+Opportunities/Notes+from+the+Road/Winter+2003/Student+Journal/January+6%2C+2003.htm[/url][/COLOR]

And one more obscene Jewish media mogul put to a proper context:

[COLOR=Red]“Haim Saban is half-owner of Fox Family Worldwide, a company that produces and broadcasts programming via the Fox Family Channel and Fox Kids' Network. His own company, Saban Entertainment, is best known for producing the children's show "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers." Saban is a long-time financial supporter of the Democratic Party, as is his wife Cheryl, who is a writer and producer for Fox Family Worldwide.”

[url]http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/mojo_400/5_saban.html[/url][/COLOR]

Compared to:

[COLOR=Blue]“Hüseyin Saban

One of the finest oilwrestlers in the Netherlands. Euro Champ of the 3rd and 4th Amsterdam Kirkpinar. ”

[url]http://kirkpinar.50megs.com/saban_huseyin.htm[/url][/COLOR]

//////////////////////////////

I have carefully sought not to present any examples that might derive from Arabic on the Turkish side or Hebrew on the Jewish side – just pure Turanian examples.

Am I beginning to convince you, Walter?

(I would also appreciate if someone knowledgeable in German could confirm my claims.)

Petr

Ruffin

2004-04-30 18:52 | User Profile

What a silly thing to debate. Those of you who can't stand the thought that our modern-day Jews might be related to the people of the book, hell, read the old testament! If that wasn't written by ancestors of Baruch and Kaganovich, I don't know what. Those of you who think our modern-day Jews originated of Russian or Greek or Turkish or pure anything other than semite stock, look at a map of that part of the world! People have migrated and neighbors have interbred.

So the answer is that they are both, as DNA tests will confirm (and I'm guessing). If any mass conversions took place, they were probably done similarly to the way many Americans have converted, whether they know it or not. And there's always room for forced conversion too. Not unheard of among any* people.

It seems that Jews were the scourge of the planet when they were entirely semitic, and remain so with the infusion of much European blood over many centuries.

Petr

2004-05-01 00:10 | User Profile

Kevin Alan Brook is the most noted mainstream Khazar scholar today. I believe he more or less believes that Ashkenazim are mostly their descendants, but for career reasons doesn’t say it out too loud.

Here is his learned article on the issue, and in it you can see some quite significant admissions – scholarly code expressions, if you only can interpret them.

[COLOR=Red]“Are Russian Jews Descended from the German and Bohemian Jews?

by Kevin Alan Brook

[url]http://www.khazaria.com/westernjews.html[/url][/COLOR]

He begins with this statement:

[COLOR=Blue]”My argument, based on extensive research, is that the Russian Jews are descended from a mixture of Central European Jews and Khazarian Jews. Since I have devoted a separate essay to the Khazar contribution, I have decided to create this essay to examine the evidence to support the contention that Russian Jews descend largely from Central European Jews. In providing both of these essays, I hope to counter the faulty either-or extremism which contends that Russian Jews could be either Khazarian Jews or German Jews but not both. I say that they are both.”[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]“There were a small number of Jewish refugees from France who arrived in Hungary, as I mentioned in Chapter 11 of my book in the section "Jews in Hungary", but overall French Jews have no connection to the vast majority of Eastern European Jews.”[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]“The majority (over 50%) of Jews in Poland descend from German, Moravian, and Bohemian Jews, as I state on pages 282 and 289 in my book, The Jews of Khazaria. Page 289 reads, in part, "The Jewish populations in Poznan, Kalisz, Krakow, and Wroclaw were probably in the main descended from German, Moravian, and Bohemian Jews." However, I also think that the Khazarian Jewish elements are worth studying. Only by studying both the Western Jewish and the Khazarian Jewish ethnic contributions can be we completely objective. Weinryb's book confirms my assertion that Krakow and Wroclaw were major areas of settlement for Western Jews. Separate research by other prominent historians and linguists has shown that the early Jews of Kiev and Chernigov may have descended largely from the Khazars.”[/COLOR]

Like I said, Brook represents the respectable mainstream, is a leading scholar on his field, and so these admissions of his are all the more valuable.

[COLOR=Blue]"Kevin Alan Brook is the author of The Jews of Khazaria, the most recent general history of the Khazars in English. "[/COLOR]

Petr

Gabrielle

2004-05-01 19:16 | User Profile

Thanks, Petr, for all the great information. You are a smart cookie! :)

Petr

2004-05-07 00:07 | User Profile

Bump!

Mr. Yannis, sir, I repeat my humble request: could it possible to get some short and hard-hitting quotations on what Solzhenitsyn thinks about the Khazar question in his latest book?

It would help me in future debates!

Yours,

Petr

Faust

2004-11-17 00:26 | User Profile

THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE by ARTHUR KOESTLER

Editorial Reviews

Traces the history of the ancient Khazar Empire, a major but almost forgotten power in Eastern Europe, which in the Dark ages became converted to Judaism. Khazaria was finally wiped out by the forces of Ghengis Khan, but evidence indicates that the Khazars, themselves migrated to Poland and formed the cradle of Western Jewry.

Product Details:

* Paperback: 255 pages
* Publisher: Random House; 1st American ed edition (July 12, 1976)
* ISBN: 0394402847
* Product Dimensions: 0.8 x 5.5 x 8.5 inches
* Shipping Weight: 10.4 ounces. (View shipping rates and policies)
* Average Customer Review: based on 29 reviews. (Write a review)
* Amazon.com Sales Rank in Books: #27,148
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[url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0394402847/[/url]

Blond Knight

2004-11-17 03:42 | User Profile

Check out the bookstore and other excellent info at We Hold These Truths:

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