← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · electrik
Thread ID: 12468 | Posts: 13 | Started: 2004-02-23
2004-02-23 15:17 | User Profile
Who Killed Christ? There's Nothing to Debate
Michael A. Hoffman II Feb. 22, 2004
According to the Rabbis of the Talmud
"On the eve of Passover they hung Jesus of Nazareth. The herald had gone forth forty days before [his death], (crying): 'Jesus of Nazareth goes forth to be stoned, because he has practiced magic and deceived and led astray Israel. Anyone who knows anything in his favor should come and declare concerning him.' But they found nothing in his favor."
Source: Tractate Sanhedrin 43a
According to Judaism's most esteemed halachic (legal) authority, Moses Maimonides
"Jesus of Nazareth... impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him."
Source: Maimonides, "Letter to Yemen"
According to the Bible
For ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
Source: I Thessalonians 2: 14-16
Case closed!
Judaism's Strange Gods
by Michael A. Hoffman II
Independent History & Research, Box 849, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho 83816 USA Copyright 2004 by Michael A. Hoffman II
Source: [url]http://www.hoffman-info.com/news.html[/url]
2004-02-23 15:32 | User Profile
Yes, all you good Christian morons, go kill the Jews because they killed Christ as God intended. The Jews will be back within a generation because you are too stoo-pid to govern your own affairs.
2004-02-23 16:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE=electrik]Who Killed Christ? There's Nothing to Debate[/QUOTE]
Indeed, there is nothing to debate.
To the secular world, the Romans killed Jesus. But, the Romans were nothing more than the instrument the Jews used. This should be clear to anyone even if the Jews were not explicitly blamed by the Bible.
To the zionist pseudo-Christians, Christians killed Jesus. Jesus died for the sins of Christians, but that doesn't make us guilty of His murder. If we killed Jesus then Christ's death makes us murderers; we would be condemned by Christ's death on the cross rather than washed clean.
If we apply the pseudo-Christian's reasoning to Judas then we would say that we're all guilty of betraying Jesus because Jesus had to be betrayed first. Yet, Jesus says of Judas "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Judas was not saved because of his guilt leading to the death of Jesus. We cannot be saved by Christ's death if we share the guilt of it.
Jesus repeatedly blames the Jews for His murder. Any real Christian would accept Jesus's accusation against the Jews.
Speaking in parable about Jews killing Him, Jesus said, "Having yet therefore one son [Jesus], his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen [Jews] said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.' And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard."
Jesus said, "God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all." Holding Jews corporatelyresponsible, just as God corporately blessed the jews by having Jesus come from their blood line, is solidly biblical, including when it comes to holding the Jews accountable for Christ's death.
Jesus said "Ye [Jews] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Jesus said, "We go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death." Jesus names those who unjustly condemn Him.
Jesus said, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." God takes vengeance on the Jews for killing Jesus, destroying Judea, the Temple, and killing or scattering all the Jews.
The Gospel writers concer with Jesus:
"When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing [in saving Jesus from the Jews], but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people [Jews], and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." The Jews accepted corporate responsibility and the Bible reports implies the validity of that acceptance.
"Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death."
This is just a sampling from the gospels, never mind the rest of the New Testiment that fingers the Jews or the Old Testament that also blames the Jews (via prophesy).
Any "Christian" who killed Jesus is going to Hell, where murderers go.
2004-02-23 23:36 | User Profile
My take on Christian philosophy is not going to be popular here, but I think the Biblical message is pretty straightforward: Christians are not to look down on Jews for their unbelief. Paul makes this clear in Chapter 11 of Romans (verses 7-32 quoted here):
Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The above verses state in no uncertain terms that God chose to use the Jews for the "ignoble purpose" (Romans, Chapter 9) of being the "dummies," so to speak, whose rejection of Christ would lead to the acceptance of Christ by the Gentiles. This means that the blindness that God allowed to come upon the Jews as a nation is only temporary, and one day they will come around to accepting Jesus. Whether or not this is actually the case is debatable (unless one's mind is closed to any debate about Biblical inspiration), but it's quite clear that that's what Paul is saying.
In any case, it makes no sense whatsoever to hold modern-day Jews responsible for what their ancestors might have done, just as it makes no sense to hold today's Christians responsible for the Inquisition. Nobody can be responsible for something that took place prior to his birth. If there's a God, then I'll leave it to Him to judge culpability for Christ's death.
On the other hand, it does make sense to hold present-day, organized Zionist Jewry responsible for their crimes and prevent them from continuing with them. Thus, I no longer think about the Jewish question in religious terms; I just want my country back, and I wouldn't mind seeing the long-suffering Palestinians get some justice as well. Jewish influence needs to be extricated from US government and culture, and Israel must no longer receive funding for its crimes against humanity.
2004-02-23 23:47 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]My take on Christian philosophy is not going to be popular here, but I think the Biblical message is pretty straightforward: Christians are not to look down on Jews for their unbelief. Paul makes this clear in Chapter 11 of Romans (verses 7-32 quoted here.[/QUOTE]
Several Church Fathers would disagree with you. For example, St. John Chrysostom had much bad to say about Jews - called them "miserable" and that was one of his nicer comments.
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2004-02-24 05:09 | User Profile
Angler, like it or not, God does deal with groups corporately. Even in the text you quoted, this is clear. And, God has judged the culpability for Christ's death. This I know for the Bible tells me so.
As long as Jews reject Christ, it makes complete sense to hold them culpable for Christ's death. I don't hold the culpable in the sense that they should be dragged to court and convicted of conspiracy to murder.
And, yes, God chose for the Jews to not believe. We do not choose God. God chooses us.
2004-02-24 05:48 | User Profile
[QUOTE=NeoNietzsche]Yes, all you good Christian morons, go kill the Jews because they killed Christ as God intended. The Jews will be back within a generation because you are too stoo-pid to govern your own affairs.[/QUOTE]
Well Neo, the cockroaches have survive for over 5 millions years (or more) that doesn't mean that we have stopped killing them. Some animals are harder to kill than others but we do what we can in order that they don't multiply to fast, they are keep under control,,,,,,,
2004-02-24 06:36 | User Profile
Quoting the VNN Terror Timeline:
"30 AD -- Jews murder Jesus Christ, or rather, have him killed, as some prefer. The event in sum: Jesus is brought before Pilate charged with various crimes. Pilate declares him innocent. The crowd of Jews angrily demand his death. "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." (Matthew 27:24-25)"
2004-02-24 08:00 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]Angler, like it or not, God does deal with groups corporately. Even in the text you quoted, this is clear. And, God has judged the culpability for Christ's death. This I know for the Bible tells me so. Okay, but...how do you know the Bible is true? Because it says so in the Bible? I still don't understand the logic of the "argument from the Bible."
And, yes, God chose for the Jews to not believe. We do not choose God. God chooses us.[/QUOTE]If that is the case, then God can't justly hold anyone responsible for not believing. If God doesn't want someone to believe, then that person is doing God's will by not believing, and thus it makes no sense for God to punish that person for doing His will. This could not possibly be more obvious, and to deny it is to thoroughly purge oneself of rationality.
2004-02-24 08:34 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]Several Church Fathers would disagree with you. For example, St. John Chrysostom had much bad to say about Jews - called them "miserable" and that was one of his nicer comments.[/QUOTE]Well, then they're not disagreeing with me so much as with that passage I quoted from Romans. Its meaning is plain.
As for the Church Fathers I've read, they have little credibility with me anyway because much of their teaching is not only immoral, it's sick. For example, Augustine came to the conclusion that babies who die prior to baptism end up in the flames of hell. That's utter blasphemy against God, since even the Devil could not be more cruel, and anyone who believes that God tortures dead infants is warped beyond measure. (To the Church's credit, they rejected Augustine's insane view on that issue.) As another example, Aquinas claimed that the happiness of the souls in heaven will be increased by their awareness of the tortures suffered by the damned. What a sick, sadistic notion. Anyone who could actually derive pleasure from watching someone else burn like that is as hateful and wicked as any devil could ever be.
I just cannot believe that God is evil. If He were, then I wouldn't worship Him no matter what sort of threats He made.
2004-02-24 08:46 | User Profile
Did the Sheckies kill Jesus? Yea, verily. But I hate them because they're murdering us - right now. Hey - it's not like God has made our demise a requirement for the salvation of mankind, so the scum don't have that convenient excuse.
2004-02-24 12:36 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]Well, then they're not disagreeing with me so much as with that passage I quoted from Romans. Its meaning is plain.
As for the Church Fathers I've read, they have little credibility with me anyway because much of their teaching is not only immoral, it's sick. For example, Augustine came to the conclusion that babies who die prior to baptism end up in the flames of hell. That's utter blasphemy against God, since even the Devil could not be more cruel, and anyone who believes that God tortures dead infants is warped beyond measure. (To the Church's credit, they rejected Augustine's insane view on that issue.)[/QUOTE]
The writings of the Church Fathers have authority, but these men were fallible just like anyone. The idea that babies who die before baptism are condemned, is an opinion not really based in Scripture. I think the present opinion of the Orthodox Church is that we would have to trust the baby's soul to God's mercy. We're not really in a position to know.
Having said that, in regards to the Jews, we do have Scripture and some general agreement by the Church Fathers and Tradition on the Jews. For example, take this comment by Chrysostom:
"But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who say so? The Son of God say so. For he said: "If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father". Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God?"
Its obviously a scripture-based opinion, not taken out of thin air.
The important point, I think, is the Jewish issue hasn't really been contested until recent times since Jews have gained significant power to censor and punish criticism. Its not that Christians have suddenly found a need to disavow or ignore traditional Christian opinion on Jews. No, its political. They have been intimidated into it.
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2004-02-24 15:13 | User Profile
[QUOTE]If that is the case, then God can't justly hold anyone responsible for not believing. If God doesn't want someone to believe, then that person is doing God's will by not believing, and thus it makes no sense for God to punish that person for doing His will. This could not possibly be more obvious, and to deny it is to thoroughly purge oneself of rationality.[/QUOTE]
That's a great argument, and one that I still struggle with.
Here are my two bits on the subject.
Your argument is false, because it assumes incorrectly that God is somehow subject to the Natural Law that governs the universe. But that's not right. God stands utterly outside of Creation. He is the Creator of this universe. In fact, as far as we know He may very well be the Creator of an infinite number of other universes. God is Great beyond all imagining.
The point is that God made the Natural Law to govern His universe and it's inhabitants, and it is in no way binding upon Himself. You might as well say that Bill Gates is subject to the laws of Windows. That is, your argument is in effect that since Gates invented the laws of Windows, he is subject to the all the keyboard commands. You can turn him off by alt+cntrl+del.
Now, like any analogy about God, this is of necessity a poor one. It's misleading because we don't live in a computer program, we live in Reality, for when God makes something from nothing it is REAL and in no wise merely virtual. But I think you get the point. God is outside Creation. The moral law that you cite to condemn His actions is correctly applied only to creatures; it cannot be held to bind the Creator.
This is a very hard lesson. It is in fact the first and perhaps the only lesson. It's the lesson of Job.
The simple and unpalatable fact of our existence is that we are little tiny specks of dust in an unimaginably large void containing an unimaginably large number of galaxies. We're soooooo small that we couldn't continue to live if we really accepted it.
"Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" has a really cool idea where scientists invent a machine called the Total Perspective Vortex, which is a sort of booth that you can sit in and perceive on an deeply intuitive level your real size in relation to the universe. The idea was to help people attain wisdom and insight, but it turned out that this was the most horrific torture imaginable. Nobody could stand it more than a few minutes and not go completely insane. People were given tiny doses of the TPV as punishment for crimes.
I think that Moby Dick gets at this, too. Pip the cabin boy is lost adrift in the sea and he sees how small he is - he FEELS his insignificance - and he goes completely mad.
That gets at the central fact of our existence. We're small in comparison to the Universe, but the Universe itself is but the merest baubel for God. The problem with monotheism is its insistence that man stare up into that agonizing sun, and naturally men tend to look down to the Universe and prefer to worship that. That's called paganism. Paganism is a sort of averting of the eyes from the sun, and it's the most natural thing in the world.
Anyway, the point is that you have no tools or standards - not even the Natural Law itself - by which to judge the Creator, for like the Natural Law you are but a creature and, objectively speaking, you are a thoroughly insignificant one at that (like the rest of us mortals). If there is any value in our lives it is only because God has willed it. There is nothing - and by definition there can be nothing - above the Will of God.
As C.S. Lewis might have put it, God isn't in the dock, Angler. We are in the dock. We are subject to the laws He wills through His absolute freedom, He is not subject to them. God is not subject to the Natural law, we are. Our judgements are puny and I think if you really think about it you'll see that your (and my) presumption of judging God by a standard He invented is ludicrous in the extreme.
So, yes, God hardened the hearts of the Jews against Jesus and softened the hearts of us gentiles for Him. But as St. Paul writes, do we as pots have the right to question the decisions of the potter? Clearly not. Where was Job when Yahweh spanned the oceans? Where was Angler when God snapped His fingers and caused the Big Bang?
This is in my opinion the first lesson in spirituality. Actually, I think it's the only lesson. It's the one that nobody ever really gets, although a few saints like Francis have gone very far indeed. It is the beginning of all wisdom - the fear of the Lord.
The good news, however, is that God loves us. In fact, God so loved the world that He Himself suffered and died to save us. The good news is that in doing so He revealed that He is three persons, and that at the very heart of Being is Relation. We Christians do not believe in the lonely Allah of the desert as do the Muslims, but rather we know Him as Abba - Daddy. We are not alone - to the very core of our Being, we are at one with the One Who is wholly Other.
"Hey," said the Infinite, "why not just call me Dad?"
Amen to that. I just call him "the Popster."
So, Angler, I got some good news and I got some bad news.
The bad news is that you're a speck of dust on an insignificant planet with no idea where you came from and where you're going and you're burdened by the certain knowledge that you're insignificant and can judge nothing. The good news is that you have a Father in Heaven who, for reasons we will never understand, loves you beyond all earthly wisdom.
Accept it. Say "hi, Dad!"
I guarantee that he'll respond in kind.
Walter