← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · wild_bill
Thread ID: 12298 | Posts: 43 | Started: 2004-02-13
2004-02-13 03:24 | User Profile
What Happens After Death
With death comes the separation of the soul from the body. The body returns to the earth from which it was taken. It decomposes but it is not lost. The time will come when it will be resurrected, spiritualized and made incorruptible, at the time of the just judgement. And then it will be united with the soul to be judged along with the soul. In the meantime, the soul which was separated, through death, from the body, lives in a middle state. It undergoes the particular judgement. "It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes the judgement"(Hebrews 9:27). This means that immediately after death the soul is judged individually. It remains after this particular judgement until the final judgement, at the second Coming of Christ, having a foretaste of paradise or of hell.
At the final judgement, which will take place at the Second Coming of Christ, all people will be presented before Him to be judged. The evangelist Matthew tells us the following: "Before Him will be gathered all nations"(Matthew 25:32). At the final judgement, the souls will not be the only ones to be presented. We will be presented wholly, with our body and soul--with all our personhood. Body and soul will be judged. St. Paul tells us: "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body" (2 Corinthians 5:10).
At the final judgement everyone will be judged according to their faith and their works. Christ will then separate the just from the unjust or sinners. "Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), and to the sinners He will say: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Then "they [sinners] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"(Matthew 25:46). This will be the final judgement. After the final judgement, there will either be eternal life or hell--eternal punishment. There will be no changes after the final judgement. The just will be grounded in their righteousness and will always be righteous, and will live eternally. The sinners will be stabilized in their sin. They will not be able to change. They will live in hell. They too will live. They will not vanish, as some fools say. The above verse makes that vividly clear.
This will occur to man after death. In order for this to happen, two things must come first: the resurrection of the dead by which the soul will be reunited with the body, and the Second Coming of Christ. We will write about this in the next sections.
Triune God, Who out of love created man, on whom in his disobedience and sin You had compassion, and out of love Your Son became man to save man, You, Lord, know our problems and weaknesses. You also know our love for You and our longing for our salvation. We do not want our condemnation. We want eternal life near You. And still, we continue to sin. Show, Lord, upon this also Your understanding and love. Now, help us to be stable in faith--to prove it with works of love. Give us a Christian ending to our earthly lives, a good defense at Your Second Coming. Do not allow any of Your creatures to be lost. We know that we are responsible for our future. We are not throwing the burden on You. We are not blaming You. We are not making You responsible for our mistakes. But we ask You, help us. All of us, without any exception. Help us to do works of repentance. How dreadful it would be for You to have prepared Your Kingdom, for us and then for us to inherit eternal punishment apart from You. Creator, do not allow such a thing for anyone. We thank You, our Creator.
2004-02-13 03:48 | User Profile
Hey Bill, what ever you are drinking, I want some of it...... it really makes your mind fly ..........
2004-02-13 04:17 | User Profile
Manifestations of goyische intellectual incapacity warm of the hearts of otherwise watchful Jewry.
On the other hand, manifestations of goyische irrationality arouse anxiety and uncertainty in the same element.
The overall effect of the mouthing of Christianity on Jewry is thus somewhat indeterminate.
2004-02-13 06:57 | User Profile
What happens to you Christians is that you get to spend eternty in "heaven" with God's Chosen, the Jews. For the rest of us, your heaven is our hell. Personally, I am staying here on earth were I belong.
2004-02-13 07:09 | User Profile
Hey Black Sun!
Interesting theory I've run into before: When you die you get what you expect you'll get (I think the Tibetan Bardo goes into this at great length.)
Point being that atheists who expect complete discorporation will get ... nothing, Christians who expect heaven will get a fantasy that incorporates harps & angels, etc.
My worries here would be for the old-time Hermeticists who believe the universe to be a great cosmic mind, and at death they are aware of it on all levels and not only the physical ones they percieve before death. For them to experience anything like this, something like it would have to be true.
Too bad the Tibetans and gnostics never got together on that.
2004-02-13 07:45 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SchwarzeSonne]What happens to you Christians is that you get to spend eternty in "heaven" with God's Chosen, the Jews. For the rest of us, your heaven is our hell. Personally, I am staying here on earth were I belong.[/QUOTE]
Well, If the Jews are really in Heaven (I really don't think so) then I'd rather go to Hell because Heaven is going to be worse than Hell,,,,,,, I feel sorry for Elah up there, having to put up with those people.
2004-02-13 08:30 | User Profile
I don't know what happens after death, since I've never died before. I do know of several friends and family members who have died, but they never bothered to come back and tell me about the experience. The nerve of those people! But maybe it's not their fault. They might have only taken enough pocket change with them into the afterlife to pay Charon for a one-way trip across the river Styx.
2004-02-13 09:12 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SchwarzeSonne]What happens to you Christians is that you get to spend eternty in "heaven" with God's Chosen, the Jews. For the rest of us, your heaven is our hell. Personally, I am staying here on earth were I belong.[/QUOTE]
I don't think many Jews will be in Heaven.
-
2004-02-13 09:14 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]I don't know what happens after death, since I've never died before. I do know of several friends and family members who have died, but they never bothered to come back and tell me about the experience. The nerve of those people! But maybe it's not their fault. They might have only taken enough pocket change with them into the afterlife to pay Charon for a one-way trip across the river Styx.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't it be better to be safe than sorry.
-
2004-02-13 10:34 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]Wouldn't it be better to be safe than sorry.[/QUOTE]That's a valid question, but it has a ready answer: Belief in any particular religion doesn't make a person safe from the afterlife. It's impossible to cover all the bases. If I believe in Catholicism (the faith I grew up with), then some Protestants maintain that I'll go to hell. If I follow Protestantism but Catholicism is the true faith, then I might be risking damnation for heresy. If I end up following any brand of Christianity, then I'll go to hell anyway if it turns out that Mohammed and the Muslims were right after all. Or maybe God really does favor the Jews, and maybe they really are destined to rule the world and enslave us. And what if all these religions are really just there to test human beings to see who will have the courage (not that Christians are cowards) to stick with reason and conscience even when faced with the possibility of eternal damnation? Maybe God actually values reason over faith and will reward and/or punish accordingly.
In any case, all of the above considerations are moot; belief is, for me and many other people, not a matter of choice. My belief is something is completely dependent on my reasoned assessment of the supporting evidence, as well as reasoning from basic moral axioms that seem self-evident.
My view is that if God is truly loving and just, then He must understand that human beings living in the modern world have NO real evidence on which to base a belief in the Bible. God has never revealed His presence to me personally; I have nothing to go on but the word of some people who lived centuries ago.
Christianity would actually be much more plausible to me if it did not threaten unbelievers with eternal misery. That threat smacks of human invention for power-grabbing purposes. To me, the idea that any mortal man is capable of deserving infinite punishment makes no sense whatsoever. Each of us men is a limited being, with limited awareness and limited understanding. We have limited control over our wills and our emotions. And our flaws are not ours by choice. So how can finite beings such as ourselves possibly be infinitely guilty in the eyes of a just God? Infinite guilt requires infinite malice and perfect awareness of the crime one is committing. Human beings never satisfy those requirements. That is why I can't believe in hell anymore and couldn't even if I wanted to.
On the other hand, maybe Jesus really was God's Son and really did die on the cross for sinners. Perhaps He rescued believers not from hellfire but from annihilation after death. Human beings do not deserve eternal torture, but neither do they deserve to exist, and God has a right to send into oblivion anyone He wishes, since He took them out of oblivion in the first place. Maybe God makes belief the prerequisite for escaping that oblivion. I still find this implausible and unsupported by any evidence, but at least it doesn't clash with my (supposedly God-given) sense of justice and morality.
If Christianity turns out to be completely true, then at least I'll have Christ's words to fall back on: "The standard by which you measure others will be used to measure you." I honestly judge no human being as being even remotely worthy of hell; thus, by that standard, I must not be worthy of hell.
2004-02-13 16:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]That's a valid question, but it has a ready answer: Belief in any particular religion doesn't make a person safe from the afterlife. It's impossible to cover all the bases. If I believe in Catholicism (the faith I grew up with), then some Protestants maintain that I'll go to hell. If I follow Protestantism but Catholicism is the true faith, then I might be risking damnation for heresy. If I end up following any brand of Christianity, then I'll go to hell anyway if it turns out that Mohammed and the Muslims were right after all. Or maybe God really does favor the Jews, and maybe they really are destined to rule the world and enslave us. And what if all these religions are really just there to test human beings to see who will have the courage (not that Christians are cowards) to stick with reason and conscience even when faced with the possibility of eternal damnation? Maybe God actually values reason over faith and will reward and/or punish accordingly. [/QUOTE]
Of course, they all claim to be the way to Heaven, but as an Orthodox Christian, I believe Orthodoxy is the true Christianity based upon its preserved teachings and 2,000 year-old apostolic tradition. No other Church, except the Catholics, can even begin to make that very significant claim.
BTW, the Orthodox do not believe that ONLY Orthodox Christians will be saved, rather that we do not presume to know the mind of God on this matter. We accept that God may indeed allow some non-Orthodox to enter Heaven, but only through His mercy, not by their adherence to their non-Orthodox religions. Some people may gain God's favor despite their following of heretical or false teachings. For example, persons who never heard the true message of Christ.
Christ established His Church through the Holy Apostles, and based upon my studies, I believe the Orthodox Church is that Church - the only Church. Apparently I'll have to take my chances, since I can only base that decision on facts, reason, and prayer.
Becoming a member of the Orthodox requires an solemn oath before God disavowing any and all teachings contrary to those of the Orthodox Church. I took the oath with seriousness and I accept the responsibility of that oath.
-
2004-02-13 17:14 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wintermute]My own opinion, that the soul's trajectory through this world and others is determined by its own character and its interaction with divinity, applies also to Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Their affiliations will not 'save' them, but what they do, both mentally and physically, will determine their path.[/QUOTE]
Ephesians 2, my friend.
:)
2004-02-13 19:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wintermute] But then, nobody says the Bible is perfect. Or do they?[/QUOTE]
Plucking verses from the Bible without context and understanding proves nothing.
-
2004-02-13 19:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wintermute]I know, I know.
P.S. In this context, it bears repeating:
" The Abrahamic religions are unique by replacing behavior and self-cultivation with membership in a privileged group. As Julian the Blessed remarked to a Christian bishop: "there is only one word in your religion: believe!"
Contrarywise, damnation is threatened for those in the out-group, rather than for misbehavior. Thus the tyrant with bloodstained hands who accepts Christ on his deathbed, is expected, by Christians, to join in the divine Chorus upon death, whereas the virtous non-Christian is certainly hellbound."
OK, two points on this quote. There have been many miracles that serve to confirm God's work so its not just blind belief. Now I am a person that would normally have a problem with such claims since my higher education has been in engineering, but many of these miracles occurred in the presence of numberous witnesses and therefore cannot be casually ignored. Also I am not a fundamentalist that takes everything in the Bible literally. Many things in the Bible are allegorical or illustrative of a certain teaching, like the story of Adam and Eve.
Every Christian understands that any conversion, deathbed or otherwise, that is insincere is obviously worthless. As I understand it, the Orthodox hold that there are different levels of Heaven. So such a conversion by a person who led a wicked life, even if 100% sincere, would save him from hell, but might only get one in on the very bottom level of Heaven.
-
2004-02-13 21:06 | User Profile
wild_bill is Orthodox, so he'll go to Heaven too.
2004-02-13 21:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wintermute]Here's a topical news item, confirming my point:
** Gibson, interviewed by the Herald Sun in Australia, was asked if Protestants are denied eternal salvation.[B] "There is no salvation for those outside the (Catholic) church," Gibson replied. "I believe it." [/B]
He elaborated: "Put it this way. My wife is a saint. She's a much better person than I am. Honestly. She's, like, Episcopalian, Church of England. [B]She prays, she believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that stuff. And it's just not fair if she doesn't make it; she's better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it." [/B] [/QUOTE]
I wouldn't fault Gibson for his belief since he is only repeating what is essentially Catholic doctrine. As a faithful Catholic, anything else would be heresy.
Likewise, I also have to support the doctrine of my Church, but I will say that saving myself from hell's fire was not in the front of my mind when I decided to become a Christian. Fear was not part of it. It was simply a desire that I would like to do the right thing. I figured that Christ may not knock at my door forever.
I would criticize Mel Gibson on one point. As husband, father, and head of his household, he has no small responsibility in getting his family on the same theological page, so to speak. The fact that his wife is not a Catholic indicates that she may be in rebellion against the authority of her husband and that's not good. I don't pretend to know their private lives, and I'm not advocating anyone become a Catholic, but from what I know virtually all religions take a negative view of a theologically-split family.
-
2004-02-13 21:39 | User Profile
After death we enter oblivion: the same oblivion we left at birth. We are transitory cells in a larger body that exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously in eternity. We will never meet our loved ones again.
2004-02-13 21:48 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Bardamu]After death we enter oblivion: the same oblivion we left at birth. We are transitory cells in a larger body that exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously in eternity. We will never meet our loved ones again.[/QUOTE]
How do you know?
-
2004-02-13 22:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]How do you know?
-[/QUOTE]
Because there is not such thing as disembodied spirit. Even this writing, which is coming from my spirit, is captured by the binary numbers of this program. When the body dies the spirit dies too. We are all part of God, who is a material being, at the very least a composite of all the life on this planet and probably the universe. But individually we are transient. This is brutally obvious by the fact that our bodies disintegrate. If spirit could exist outside of a body why would there be a body to begin with?
2004-02-13 22:23 | User Profile
Why does spirit need oxygen in our brain? Why does it need the brain? Where does it go when we sleep? etc. etc.
While there is no logical way to prove a negative, doesn't mean we should jump up and down and claim things for which there is little evidence but the accumulated multitudes of contradictory religions.
2004-02-13 23:16 | User Profile
wintermute:
Thanks for the link, I can now stop rummaging around for weekend reading material!
Michael Hoffman's explanation also merits some attention, and he's also just updated his site with gobs of new stuff (his treatment of the lyrics of rock music, especially Led Zeppelin, is splendid.)
The Ego Death site:
[url]http://www.egodeath.com/[/url]
Likewise, Hoffman's take on "the afterlife" mirrors my own fairly well; that in religion it is strictly a metaphor and does not refer in any way to what happens after physical death, and whenever it does it simply reflects the error of the carnal mind grappling with a concept that was never carnal.
Or as Hoffman examines it:
[QUOTE]...There are two conceptions of afterlife: metaphorical and literal. After spiritual ego death, one's mortal corruptible self has been sacrificed and has died, and one is by definition in the afterlife, in the kingdom of god, ascended, beyond the last judgment.
That type of death and immortal life after death is certain and is the ultimate experience for which we have evidence. What about literal bodily death and some literalist type of eternal life in heaven? There's little support for it in Biblical scripture. Scripture lends itself more to the mystical, "awakening to the kingdom of god" approach, with "death" and "last judgment" interpreted first mystically per mystery religion, and only weakly in the literal sense.
The "mystery" of the scriptures is set up through deliberate, playful conflation of literal with mystical death. I have yet to check the concordance, but there is much more about the kingdom of god, than the conventional heavenly afterlife in the scriptures.
Mystically, it is certain that we can awaken to timelessness, learning to think of time as essentially illusory. This kind of eternal life is certain. Literal eternal life is entirely speculative, conjectural, needed to prop up the illusion of conventional freewill moral agency, and is motivated by wishful thinking rather than evidence, so I formally reject it as groundless...[/QUOTE]
Much more at his site, all loaded with lots of thought-food.
2004-02-14 00:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wintermute]
If you can exist outside of your car, then why would you have a car to begin with?
Wintermute[/QUOTE]
Why indeed? Since we know most people on the planet have no car it demonstrates the nonessential quality of cars. Now in turn you demonstrate to me an example of spirit disembodied?
What material is spirit made of? The closest analogy to spirit that I can think of is thought. Thought cannot exist seperate from a physical brain. Whatever else God is he comforms to natural law. Natural law is the best description of God that I can think of, otherwise we would have to say that God conforms to laws outside himself, which makes him a lesser God, which is more or less a contradiction in terms.
2004-02-14 01:29 | User Profile
As an experienced pagan shaman, I actually know what happens after death of the body. I wonââ¬â¢t tell you, something about pearls before ... Sorry! wrong metaphor.
OK, Iââ¬â¢ll tell you this much. You will continue, you will know who you are, you will be in community with those who have gone before. It will be mostly lots better than here.
Hereââ¬â¢s the kicker --- Not one of you has anything to worry about --- take my word for it.
Damn! I shouldnââ¬â¢t have had that fourth pint of micro brew this afternoon.
Anyway, what I said it true.
Enkidu
Wintermute,
Iââ¬â¢m committed to going to Burning Man this year.
2004-02-14 05:07 | User Profile
I just lost all respect I had for Gibson.
If he thinks I"m going to hell b/c I'm a protestant Christian, he can rot in hell. Literally. I'm boycotting the passion if he really spit up that bile.
2004-02-14 05:54 | User Profile
Perhaps religion isn't a unifying factor then?
2004-02-14 09:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wintermute]I'll warn you right now: Langan's material is very disturbing. The more math you know, the more freakish it is. There are some very detailed arguments with hard science types on that site, where the hard science people have to leave licking their wounds. I don't have any doubt about this fellow having a 195 IQ. He discusses Spinoza and Godel with the ease that you or I might have with, say, a television sitcom.
And just to underscore: the Hermetic view of Kosmos as Mind is one that I wholeheartedly subscribe to. For some reason seeing any religious worldview brought into the realm of the measureable and provable is extremely alarming, even if wholly agreeable to my existing beliefs.
Let me know how you do with it.[/QUOTE] Chris Langan is undoubtedly one of the smartest people on earth, and people would do well to take him very seriously. I have not yet had the chance to really dive into his CTMU, but I'm aware that it's not exactly light reading. My math background is pretty substantial, but I'm shaky on the cognitive/linguistic side of things. It's going to take a strong effort....
2004-02-14 15:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=jay]I just lost all respect I had for Gibson.
If he thinks I"m going to hell b/c I'm a protestant Christian, he can rot in hell. Literally. I'm boycotting the passion if he really spit up that bile.[/QUOTE]
I've seen Protestant preachers who don't even consider Catholics as being Christians or they use Christian in quotations when referring to Catholics.
-
2004-02-14 15:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Enkidu]As an experienced pagan shaman, I actually know what happens after death of the body. I wonââ¬â¢t tell you, something about pearls before ... Sorry! wrong metaphor.[/QUOTE]
Surely you realize that whatever afterlife you expect is not what Christians will have. All paganism is demonic anyway.
-
2004-02-14 16:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]Surely you realize that whatever afterlife you expect is not what Christians will have. All paganism is demonic anyway.
-[/QUOTE]
You believe in demons? Like epilepsy, schizophrenia, depression are caused by invading terrestrial intelligences? The domain of priests not doctors? How about lesbianism -- are these cases of witchcraft as opposed to hormones? I'm just trying to get a bead on what you mean by demons? Can you explain a little more?
2004-02-14 16:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Bardamu]You believe in demons? Like epilepsy, schizophrenia, depression are caused by invading terrestrial intelligences? The domain of priests not doctors? How about lesbianism -- are these cases of witchcraft as opposed to hormones? I'm just trying to get a bead on what you mean by demons? Can you explain a little more?[/QUOTE]
I believe there are evil or demonic forces. Paganism is a manifestation of these evil forces as it seeks to confuse people away from Christ.
Most pagans I've encountered are anti-Christian. Anything that denys Christ is anti-christ. That includes paganism and anything else.
-
2004-02-14 17:08 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]I believe there are evil or demonic forces. Paganism is a manifestation of these evil forces as it seeks to confuse people away from Christ.
Most pagans I've encountered are anti-Christian. Anything that denys Christ is anti-christ. That includes paganism and anything else.
-[/QUOTE]
Paganism was traditional long before Christ appeared in history, so how could the purpose of paganism be to draw people away from something that didn't exist?
You use the word anti-christ the same way the inner party uses anti-semitic. Anyway, religiously to each his own is my philosophy. Unless of course the adherents prove themselves political enemies.
2004-02-14 17:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Bardamu]Paganism was traditional long before Christ appeared in history, so how could the purpose of paganism be to draw people away from something that didn't exist?
God has always existed. Man was just too spiritually blind to realize this, and satan created a myriad of false religions to further confuse people.
[Quote] You use the word anti-christ the same way the inner party uses anti-semitic. Anyway, religiously to each his own is my philosophy. Unless of course the adherents prove themselves political enemies.[/QUOTE]
So why are you posting to a Christian forum section?
-
2004-02-14 17:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]
So why are you posting to a Christian forum section?
-[/QUOTE]
Is there a rule against non-Christians posting to this forum? If there is please pardon my transgression, and I won't do it again.
If there is no rule against it, which is what I believe, then quit being so constipated and change your name to [I]scared_bill[/I].
2004-02-14 18:23 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Bardamu]Is there a rule against non-Christians posting to this forum? If there is please pardon my transgression, and I won't do it again. [/QUOTE]
Just wondering. I mean you come in and right away tell us we're wrong. Do you realize how little criticism from a pagan means to a Christian? From a Christian perspective, a pagan can know nothing about the Godly afterlife about which to comment. You may know about a demonic afterlife, but that is all. Nobody gets to the Father except through Christ.
-
2004-02-14 19:17 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill] I mean you come in and right away tell us we're wrong. Do you realize how little criticism from a pagan means to a Christian?[/QUOTE]
I'm not a pagan.
[QUOTE]From a Christian perspective, a pagan can know nothing about the Godly afterlife about which to comment. You may know about a demonic afterlife, but that is all.-[/QUOTE]
You have me confused with the self-described shaman priest fellow.
2004-02-14 19:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Bardamu]I'm not a pagan.
You have me confused with the self-described shaman priest fellow.[/QUOTE]
My apologies.
-
2004-02-14 19:41 | User Profile
My apologies as well. It is not my intent to ridicule Christianity, as this is a Christian nationalist house, or at least that's what I think of it as.
2004-02-14 21:29 | User Profile
Man in his insecurity of of dying came up with the idea of Heaven and the after life. I myself have being dead 3 times and 3 time was brought back to life, there was no light or tunnel or angels, I was asleep and I woke up and that was it, I din't feel a thing. You people are so worried about the after life that you don't enjoy the "here life". Heaven and Hell is what you make out of your own life here on Earth in the now. Like I stated before, man don't need another man to tell him what is good or what is bad, your conscience and your common sense should tell you that. ...... read what others have to say but let your heart be your guide. We are not born being a Christian, Jew or Muslim but become so according to where we are born.
2004-02-14 21:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Enkidu]As an experienced pagan shaman, I actually know what happens after death of the body.[/QUOTE]
I am the Lizard King I can do anything
Jim, that you?
2004-02-14 22:22 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]I am the Lizard King I can do anything
Jim, that you?[/QUOTE]
Nope, in fact, I never even much cared for his music. The Doors had a few interesting tunes, ââ¬ÅWhiskey Bar,ââ¬Â ââ¬ÅCrystal Ship,ââ¬Â but I rarely listened to their stuff ââ¬Åback in the day.ââ¬Â
Everybody knows what happens when the body dies. Some people forget (for a while,) and others are bullied into refusing to believe what we all naturally know. We all know, thatââ¬â¢s why no one who isnââ¬â¢t too propagandize is really very afraid of death. If we were, weââ¬â¢d all be pissing ourselves, all the time.
When I read about the life extensions nutters, not the scientists who are trying to cure disease, but the lunes who are trying to contrive a way for people to live 200 years, they seem like recruits in boot camp, trying to figure out how they can extend boot camp another twelve weeks. --- OK sorry, clumsy metaphor, but the best I can come up with.
Pagan Shaman! I donââ¬â¢t talk to the trees, and they donââ¬â¢t talk to me. They talk to each other, and I can hear them. They never say anything nice, either. Makes you kinda want to come inside, have another micro brew.
Enkidu
2004-02-14 22:42 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]I believe there are evil or demonic forces. Paganism is a manifestation of these evil forces as it seeks to confuse people away from Christ.[/QUOTE]If "demons" are responsible for leading people away from Christ, then the people who are thus misled cannot be justly blamed for their failure. After all, it was not their choice to be born insufficiently wise or strong to overcome the temptation.
This relates to the story of Adam and Eve and their fall from grace. As the story goes, God created them "defective" in the sense that they were created insufficiently wise to see through the deceit of the talking snake -- even though God knew they would be tempted. And God also allowed the talking snake into the Garden of Eden in the first place, which He did not have to do; neither did He have to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil within reach of Adam and Eve. So, if the story of the fall of Adam and Eve is true, then those two were set up for failure by God. He knew that if He created Adam and Eve a certain way, and then put them into a certain situation that He created, then they would fall from grace -- yet He made it all happen anyway, even though He had no need to do so. Therefore, the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible makes God responsible for the existence of sin. That is why I know the book of Genesis to be false, at least in a literal sense. (And then there's the ironclad fact that the Genesis account of creation makes zero sense in light of what modern man knows from objective scientific inquiry, which is nothing more than logic itself applied to the acquisition of new knowledge about nature.)
2004-02-15 00:06 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]If "demons" are responsible for leading people away from Christ, then the people who are thus misled cannot be justly blamed for their failure. After all, it was not their choice to be born insufficiently wise or strong to overcome the temptation. [/QUOTE]
People are still responsible for their actions whether those actions are due to temptation and influence of demonic forces. Christ gives us the strength to subdue them.
If a person is following a pagan or false religion and they are informed of that fact, then the responsibility is theirs.
-
2004-02-15 00:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ponce]Man in his insecurity of of dying came up with the idea of Heaven and the after life. I myself have being dead 3 times and 3 time was brought back to life, there was no light or tunnel or angels, I was asleep and I woke up and that was it, I din't feel a thing. You people are so worried about the after life that you don't enjoy the "here life". [/QUOTE]
I'm not afraid of the afterlife.
I've done some unusual things, defied death numerous times, and had much enjoyment. But I find that doing such things are like buying a new car. Once you buy it, the thrill disappears fairly quickly. Knowing that such earthly activities are always anticlimactic, I finally decided that at this stage of my life, its not worth the bother.
-Bill