← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · SummersDay
Thread ID: 12194 | Posts: 29 | Started: 2004-02-07
2004-02-07 02:17 | User Profile
[color=red]The Number of Alleged Dead at Auschwitz[/color]
Source
[color=red]9,000,000[/color]
Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.
[color=red]8,000,000[/color]
The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.
[color=red]7,000,000[/color]
Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.
[color=red]6,000,000[/color]
Cited in the book Auschwitz Doctor by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.
[color=red]5,000,000 to 5,500,000[/color]
Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Hoess, based on his confession which was written in English, a language he never spoke.
[color=red]5,000,000[/color]
Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde reduced the figure to 1,433,000.
4,500,000
In 1945 this figure was cited by another witness at the aforementioned Hoess trial.
[color=red]4,000,000[/color]
Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995 (see below), The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 (see below) but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.
[color=red]3,500,000[/color]
Cited in the 1991 edition of the Dictionary of the French Language and by Claude Lanzmann in 1980 in his introduction to Filip Muller's book, Three Years in an Auschwitz Gas Chamber.
[color=red]3,000,000[/color]
Cited in a forced confession by Rudolf Hoess, the Auschwitz commander who said this was the number of those who had died at Auschwitz prior to Dec. 1, 1943. Later cited in the June 7, 1993 issue of Heritage, the most widely read Jewish newspaper in California, even though three years previously the authorities at the Auschwitz museum had scaled down the figure to a minimum of 1,100,000 and a maximum of 1,500,000. (see below).
[color=red]2,500,000[/color]
Cited by a famous "witness to the Holocaust," Rudolf Vrba, when he testified on July 16, 1981 for the Israeli government's war crimes trial of former SS official Adolf Eichmann.
[color=red]2,000,000[/color]
Cited by no less than three famous Holocaust historians, including Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in Harvest of Hate; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in The War Against the Jews.
[color=red]2,000,000 to 4,000,000[/color]
Cited by Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer in 1982 in his book, A History of the Holocaust. However, by 1989 Bauer revised his figures and determined that the actual number was lower: 1,600,000.
[color=red]1,600,000[/color]
This is a 1989 revision by Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer of his earlier figure in 1982 of 2,000,000 to 4,000,000, Bauer cited this new figure on September 22, 1989 in The Jerusalem Post, at which time he wrote' 'The larger figures have been dismissed for years, except that it hasn't reached the public yet."
[color=red]1,500,000[/color]
In 1995 this was the official" number of Auschwitz deaths announced by Polish President Lech Walesa as determined by the historians at the Auschwitz museum. This number was inscribed on the monument at the Auschwitz camp at that time, thereby "replacing" the earlier 4,000,000 figure that had been formally repudiated (and withdrawn from the monument) five years earlier in 1990. At that time, on July 17, 1990 The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph citing the "new" figure of 1,500,000 that had been determined by the authorities at the Auschwitz museum. This new figure was reported two years later in a UPI report published in the New York Post on March 26, 1992. On January 26, 1995 both The Washington Post and The New York Times cited this 1,500,000 figure as the new "official" figure (citing the Auschwitz Museum authorities).
[color=red]1,471,595[/color]
This is a 1983 figure cited by historian Georges Wellers who (as noted previously) had determined, writing in 1973, that some 2,000,000 had died. In his later calculation, Wellers decided that of the 1,471,595 who had died at Auschwitz, 1,352,980 were Jews.
[color=red]1,433,000[/color]
This figure was cited on September 1, 1989 by the French daily, Le Monde, which earlier, on April 20, 1978, had cited the figure at 4,000,000.
[color=red]1,250,000[/color]
In 1985, historian Raul Hilberg arrived at this figure in his book, The Destruction of the European Jews. According to Hilberg, of those dead, some 1,000,000 were Jews.
[color=red]1,100,000 to 1,500,000[/color]
Sources for this estimate are historians Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum (later of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum) in their 1984 book, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp; also Dr. Franciszek Piper, the curator of the Auschwitz Museum, writing a chapter in that book. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 thus remains the "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.
[color=red]1,000,000[/color]
Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.
[color=red]900,000[/color]
Reported on August 3, 1990 11, by Aufbau, a Jewish newspaper in New York.
[color=red]800,000 to 900,000[/color]
Reported by Gerald Reitlinger in his 1953 book, The Final Solution. This figure is notable, considering the fact that it reduces the Auschwitz death total from the 4,000,000 figure that was widely in vogue in 1953.
[color=red]775,000 to 800,000[/color]
Jean-Claude Pressac's revised figure, put forth in his 1993 book, The Crematoria of Auschwitz: The Mass Murder's Machinery, scaling down the figure from Pressac's 1989 claim of 1,000,000 dead. At this juncture, Pressac said that of the new number, 630,000 were Jews.
[color=red]630,000 to 710,000[/color]
In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.
[color=red]73,137[/color]
This figure was reported in The New York Times on March 3, 1991 and was based entirely on the wartime German concentration camp records that had been captured by the Soviets and just recently released. According to this figure, of those dead, 38,031 were Jews. These records state that the total of all persons who died in the ENTIRE German prison camp system from 1935 to 1945 were 403,713. To repeat: a total of 403,713 persons of all races and religions was officially recorded to have died (of all causes. typhus, old age, measles, etc.-and execution) in the entire prison camp system over a 10 year period. Of those 403,713 a total of 73,137 died at Auschwitz. Of those 73,137 who died at Auschwitz, 38,031 were Jews.
[color=blue]From The Barnes Review, January / February 2001[/color]
[img]http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/ausplaq1948.gif[/img]
This was the plaque on display at the Auschwitz camp from 1948 until 1989 (note the "4 million" victims).
[img]http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/ausplaq1990.gif[/img]
This is the plaque currently on display at Auschwitz.
Note the dramatically reduced number of victims. Down to 1.5 million.
A casual reduction in the number of deaths by some 2.5 million.
Remember, if you did not believe the 4 million figure, you were a dirty, scum anti-semite. LOL.
[color=blue]NUMBERS INCOMPLETE.[/color]
It should be noted that the last figure of 73,137 quoted in The New York Times is based on incomplete (German concentration camp) records.
The forty-six so called Auschwitz death books, released by the Russians in 1989 cover the years 1942 completely, 1943 almost completely, and 1944 incompletely. The recorded figures and some extrapolations are recorded below.
The red entries are the actual recorded numbers from the Auschwitz death books.
The blue entries are numbers extrapolated from those in the Auschwitz death books (educated guesses).
1940
5/1/40 - 12/31/40 [color=blue]2,000[/color]
1941
1/1/41 - 8/3/41 [color=blue]4,000[/color] 8/4/41 - 9/10 [color=red]1,498[/color] 9/11/41 - 10/20/41 [color=blue]1,500[/color] 10/21/41 - 11/22 [color=red]1,490[/color] 11/23/41 - 12/31/41 [color=blue]1,500[/color]
1942
1/1/42 - 1/2/42 [color=blue]69[/color] 1/3/42 - 2/23 [color=red]1,500[/color] 2/24/42 - 3/21 [color=red]1,496[/color] 3/22/42 - 4/7 [color=red]1,490[/color] 4/8/42 - 4/30 [color=red]14,29[/color] 5/1/42 - 5/15/42 [color=blue]1,500[/color] 5/16/42 - 5/29 [color=red]1,473[/color] 5/30/42 - 6/13 [color=red]1,500[/color] 6/14/42 - 6/25/42 [color=blue]1,500[/color] 6/26/42 - 7/6 [color=red]1,499[/color] 7/7/42 - 7/15 [color=red]1,498[/color] 7/16/42 - 7/27 [color=red]1,460[/color] 7/28/42 - 8/5 [color=red]1,498[/color] 8/6/42 - 8/16 [color=red]1,472[/color] 8/17/42 - 8/21 [color=red]1,489[/color] 8/22/42 - 8/27 [color=red]1,498[/color] 8/28/42 - 9/1 [color=red]1,492[/color] 9/2/42 - 9/6 [color=red]1,498[/color] 9/7/42 - 9/10 [color=red]1,498[/color] 9/11/42 - 9/15 [color=red]1,492[/color] 9/16/42 - 9/21 [color=red]1,404[/color] 9/22/42 - 9/27 [color=red]1,488[/color] 9/28/42 - 10/1 [color=red]1,442[/color] 10/2/42 - 10/11 [color=red]1,438[/color] 10/12/42 - 10/21 [color=red]1,482[/color] 10/22/42 - 11/2 [color=red]1,484[/color] 11/3/42 - 11/12 [color=red]1,490[/color] 11/13/42 - 12/4/42 [color=blue]3,000[/color] 12/5/42 - 12/14 [color=red]1,230[/color] 12/15/42 - 12/31/42 [color=blue]1,500[/color]
1943
1/1/43 - 1/15 [color=red]1,492[/color] 1/16/43 - 1/28 [color=red]1,484[/color] 1/29/43 - 2/7 [color=red]1,486[/color] 2/8/43 - 2/15/43 [color=blue]1,500[/color] 2/16/43 - 2/22 [color=red]1,442[/color] 2/23/43 - 3/1 [color=red]1,442[/color] 3/2/43 - 3/6 [color=red]1,488[/color] 3/7/43 - 3/12 [color=red]1,498[/color] 3/13/43 - 3/17 [color=red]1,492[/color] 3/18/43 - 3/23 [color=red]1,460[/color] 3/24/43 - 4/1 [color=red]1,428[/color] 4/2/43 - 4/13/43 [color=blue]1,500[/color] 4/14/43 - 5/13 [color=red]1,480[/color] 5/14/43 - 6/16/43 [color=blue]3,000[/color] 6/17/43 - 7/1 [color=red]1,465[/color] 7/2/43 - 7/28 [color=red]1,480[/color] 7/29/43 - 8/29 [color=red]1,494[/color] 8/30/43 - 10/12/43 [color=blue]3,000[/color] 10/13/43 - 11/11 [color=red]1,490[/color] 11/12/43 - 12/10 [color=red]1,414[/color] 12/11/43 - 12/28 [color=red]1,500[/color] 12/29/43 - 12/30 [color=red]1,494[/color] 12/31/43 - 12/31 [color=red]970[/color]
1944
1/1/44 - 12/31/44 [color=blue]36,000[/color]
1945
1/1/45 - 1/18/45 [color=blue]1,500[/color]
[color=red]Totals [/color]
[color=red]67,227[/color] = Actual recorded numbers of deaths from the Auschwitz death books.
[color=blue]63,069[/color] = Numbers extrapolated from those in the Auschwitz death books (educated guesses).
[color=red]130,296[/color] = Guess at total number of Auschwitz deaths.
[url]http://www.air-photo.com/english/deathbooks.html[/url]
2004-02-07 02:28 | User Profile
Actually, there is a problem with the numbers presented above as Irving says that there are partial records for the year 1944, however, the above figures do not show this.
I will try to relocate the source for these numbers -- beware; they may be inaccurate.
2004-02-07 07:56 | User Profile
[color=blue]Some entries from the Auschwitz death books.[/color]
Josef Hoffmann, a Jewish butcher, was [color=red]89 years old[/color] when he died of "old age" on June 22, 1942.
Abraham Stieber, a Jewish salesman from Slovakia, was [color=red]79 years old[/color] when he died on July 2, 1942, of "old age."
Chaim Richter, a Jewish salesman, was [color=red]81 years old[/color] when he died in Auschwitz on March 1, 1942, of "weakness of old age."
Josephine Kohn, a Jewish inmate born in Hungary who had been living in Leipzig, was [color=red]69 years old[/color] when she died on February 10, 1943. Auschwitz camp physician Dr. Kitt reported "weakness of old age" as the cause of death.
Emil Kaufmann, a Jewish attorney deported from Germany, was [color=red]78 years old[/color] when he died of "old age" on February 15, 1943. "Weakness of old age" is given as the cause of death.
Julius Sonnenberg, a salesman from Germany, was [color=red]65 years old[/color] when he died on February 27, 1943, of "angina pectoris." His religion is cited as "non-believing, formerly Jewish."
Abraham Blok, a Jewish butcher from the Netherlands, was [color=red]70 years old[/color] when he died of "old age" on March 6, 1943.
Jettchen Fuld, a Jewish inmate, was [color=red]67 years old[/color] when she died on October 10, 1942. Old age and physical weakness is given as the cause of death.
Salomon Serlui, a Jewish laborer from the Netherlands, was [color=red]67 years old[/color] when he died in Auschwitz on October 16, 1942. Camp physician Dr. Kremer reported a stomach ulcer as the cause of death.
Renö Hirschfeld, a Jewish tailor born in Berlin in 1878, was [color=red]64 years old[/color] when he died on November 2, 1942. Camp physician Dr. Kitt reported "weakness of old age" as the cause of death.
Armin Horn, a Jewish salesman deported to the camp from Slovakia, died on August 19, 1942, at the [color=red]age of 70.[/color] Camp physician Dr. Thilo recorded the cause of death as "accumulation of fluid in the intestine and weakness of old age."
This Auschwitz camp death certificate reports that prisoner Josef Buck, a Jewish teacher from Kattowitz, was [color=red]65 years old[/color] when he died on August 1, 1941. "Weakness of old age" is given as the cause of death.
Josek [sic] Nisenkorn, a Jewish laborer, was [color=red]71 years old[/color] when he died in Auschwitz on August 11, 1941. "Weakness of old age" is given as the cause of death by camp physician Dr. Siegfried Schwela, who himself later died of typhus.
Samuel Mandel, a Jewish tailor, was [color=red]74 years old[/color] when he died in Auschwitz on March 26, 1942. Physician Dr. Entress reported the cause of death as "influenza with heart failure."
Ernestine Hochfelder, a Jewish inmate who had been deported to the camp from Slovakia, was [color=red]70 years old[/color] when she died in Auschwitz on June 4, 1942. "Physical weakness and old age" is cited as the cause of death.
David Reichman, a Jewish farmer, was [color=red]70 years old[/color] when he died on July 22, 1942, of "old age."
2004-02-07 08:07 | User Profile
[color=red]The Numbers Are Clearly Faked.[/color]
On looking at the numbers of deaths provided by
[url]http://www.air-photo.com/english/deathbooks.html[/url]
they are clearly faked. So many of them being 1,498 or some rearrangement thereof.
They also do not reflect the periods of known epidemics.
I suggest that John Ball is a FAKE.
Anyone know where the real numbers can be found?
2004-02-07 15:57 | User Profile
[sarcasm] When asked, "How many Jews died at Auschwitz?", the proper response is "millions". When you put a number in front of "millions", such as "3", "4", or "20" you just end up confusing people, and dishonoring the dead, too. You don't want to be anti-Semitic, do you? :hitler: [/sarcasm]
2004-02-07 17:54 | User Profile
Thank you for not posting the name and age of all "6 millions" dead Jews. Please dont bother to search for anything, after all, we all know that you Jews like to use the number of six millions only because it sounds good. All my research points to only 1.2 millions dead Jews, killed by the Herr Hitler. I wonder for how long more the world will be paying this so called "holocaust" funds.......... is time to stop it now.
2004-02-08 00:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE]All my research points to only 1.2 millions dead Jews, killed by the Herr Hitler.[/QUOTE]
I seriously doubt that there were 1.2 million jews killed my Hitler's war machine. Where is the sense in killing your labour force? I do believe that 10's of thousands died from disease and starvation caused by the allied bombing of railways, roads, shipping etc. If you cut off the supply of food and medicine, what do you think is going to happen?
This whole notion of gas chambers, soap made from jew fat, human skin lamp shades etc. is absurd. Under scrutiny, most of those absurdities have been dismissed. It's time the gas chamber myth was also laid to rest, once and for all.
Dan
2004-02-08 02:12 | User Profile
What happened to the Nazi records of inmates? All the prisoners had those famous numbers right? Some where there is, or was, a linear account of each and every one of them.
2004-02-08 05:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ponce]All my research points to only 1.2 millions dead Jews, killed by the Herr Hitler.[/QUOTE]
[color=red]This statement makes it clear that Ponce is Jewish.
This is the latest number that the Jews have agreed to push.[/color]
2004-02-10 14:02 | User Profile
Here is a link to a small forum where both Revisionist and Jewish holocaust scholars post.
[url]http://pub86.ezboard.com/brodohforum[/url]
Here is a bigger forum, where the best of the Revisionist scholars, Michael Mills posts
[url]http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=6[/url]
They are probably the best of the WW2 warcrimes forums.
The current figures for Jews killed at Auschwitz is 750,000 give or take a couple hundred thousand. This general figure is unlikely to change unless further evidence is either found, or (as I suspect) made public.
The other large killing places are Treblinka, with roughly the same numbers, who were said to have been killed with CO gas, unlike the Zyklon-B fumigant used at Auschwitz.
The largest numbers killed are said to have been by special forces called the einsatzgruppen.
Total number of Jews believed to have been killed by mail line historians goes from Reitlinger's 4.6 million on up.
Mills, for whom I have the greatest respect, says Jewish deaths from all causes, including millitary casualties and reduced birth rate about 4 million.
2004-02-10 14:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE]All my research points to only 1.2 millions dead Jews, killed by the Herr Hitler. [/QUOTE]
You're joking, right?
2004-02-10 15:20 | User Profile
The best revisionist site:
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org[/url]
There's no evidence for homicide "gas chambers" anywhere:
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=338&highlight=numbers[/url]
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=827&highlight=holocaust+deaths[/url]
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=662&highlight=numbers[/url]
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=53&highlight=numbers[/url]
alleged Zyklon-B use for mass murder made no sense:
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=215&highlight=numbers[/url]
Data base of inmates who died at Auschwitz:
The Auschwitz 'Museum' posted the roughly 68,000 names of persons registered in the Auschwitz Death Books (Sterbebücher) with Name, Date of Birth and Death, Place of Birth, and Place of Last Residence as well as religious affiliation on the Internet.
To retrieve information, one has to enter a person's name, and the search result is restricted to 40 records.
Ofcourse, no information about the cause of death is given....that would blow their cover.
The search option is currently in Polish only.
[url]http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/szukaj/[/url]
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=433&highlight=numbers[/url]
Treblinka and Ground Penetrating Radar:
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=798&highlight=treblinka[/url]
This Mr. Mills cannot substantiate his 'four million' anymore than someone can substantiate the fabled '6,000,000'. We would really like to see him try.
[url]http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=691&highlight=holcaust+deaths[/url]
2004-02-10 15:46 | User Profile
What a bunch of spam! The problem with Revforum is that the little twit Johnny Hargis, AKA "Hannover" bans anyone who he takes a disliking to, when he's not deleting their posts. He is a little worm who works at UCLAs library where he nurses his little obsessions.
The first forum I provided a link to was set up for just that reason, people that know something about the holocaust aren't allowed to post by Johnny. The means that basically only little kids and dumb conspiricy types post there.
So, the site I linked to was set up for people to post from both sides of the debate without banning or censorship.
Other killing centers than Auschwitz and Treblinka are said to have killed with CO also, generated by several types of diesel engines. The numbers are impossible to discern, and I think they are mostly exaggerated, but one would have to be fairly ignorant of WW2 to deny that homicidal gas chambers existed, as for example the 4 euthanasia centers set up in Germany for the implementation of the T4 project, or the gas vans used for killing Soviet mental patient during 1413f.
I will gladly answer specific questions, or refer anyone to an expert, but a bunch of SPAM doesn't further debate.
2004-02-10 16:05 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Oliver Cromwell]What a bunch of spam! The problem with Revforum is that the little twit Johnny Hargis, AKA "Hannover" bans anyone who he takes a disliking to, when he's not deleting their posts. He is a little worm who works at UCLAs library where he nurses his little obsessions.
The first forum I provided a link to was set up for just that reason, people that know something about the holocaust aren't allowed to post by Johnny. The means that basically only little kids and dumb conspiricy types post there.
So, the site I linked to was set up for people to post from both sides of the debate without banning or censorship.
Other killing centers than Auschwitz and Treblinka are said to have killed with CO also, generated by several types of diesel engines. The numbers are impossible to discern, and I think they are mostly exaggerated, but one would have to be fairly ignorant of WW2 to deny that homicidal gas chambers existed, as for example the 4 euthanasia centers set up in Germany for the implementation of the T4 project, or the gas vans used for killing Soviet mental patient during 1413f.
I will gladly answer specific questions, or refer anyone to an expert, but a bunch of SPAM doesn't further debate.[/QUOTE]
:yawn:
Hannover doesn't "ban" anyone since he isn't a moderator or part of the staff on the Revisionist Forum and has no authority to ban (Mr. Cromwell is lying). Secondly, Believers regularly post on the Revisionist forum and aren't banned, so that's just another scurrilous lie (have you been banned, Mr. Cromwell?). I invite interested persons to access the board and see for themselves. Thirdly, the level of stupid hostility and invective in the previous post is indicative of Mr. Cromwell's mind-set and of where he's coming from.
The links that I've posted thoroughly de-bunk Mr. Cromwell's inane and ignorant assertions contained in his previous post; hence, his obvious displeasure. A casual perusal of the forums linked by Mr. Cromwell clearly indicates that they're run by the Holocau$t Industry and their mouth-pieces and agents and assorted liars (especially the first one).
Again, I invite those who are interested to access the abovementioned fora and decide for themselves.
2004-02-10 18:22 | User Profile
[QUOTE]The links that I've posted thoroughly de-bunk Mr. Cromwell's inane and ignorant assertions contained in his previous post; hence, his obvious displeasure. A casual perusal of the forums linked by Mr. Cromwell clearly indicates that they're run by the Holocau$t Industry and their mouth-pieces and agents and assorted liars (especially the first one).[/QUOTE]
Who is the moderator then?
But let's start with 1413f. Do you deny it?
2004-02-10 19:15 | User Profile
According to world Almanac, the population of European Jews decreased by 500,000 during the war years.
40,000 legally entered the U.S. and an estimated 60,000-100,000 entered illegally.
It's also safe to say that 50,000-100,000 died fighting in pro-soviet militia groups across Eastern Europe.
Of the Jews who died in camps, the vast majority died at the end of the war due to disease and starvation. At the same period the German public was also dying in alarming numbers as well.
2004-02-10 20:55 | User Profile
So based on your careful research, you believe the numbers to have been around 300,000?
2004-02-10 22:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Oliver Cromwell]So based on your careful research, you believe the numbers to have been around 300,000?[/QUOTE]
Curious, this is half the number David Irving has alleged. If I recall his statement was the "six million" number is too high by a factor of 10.
Rarely does this sort of thing get anywhere or convince anybody of anything. The trouble always seems to arrive when we try to factor in the numbers of Jews who fled to the Soviet Union.
Most sources indicate the numbers from the old USSR were totally wrong for ideological reasons. If this has changed since the berlin Wall came down, I am not aware of it made public anywhere. (Which means I'm curious if anyone does have any useful information on this!)
2004-02-10 23:48 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Curious, this is half the number David Irving has alleged. If I recall his statement was the "six million" number is too high by a factor of 10.
Rarely does this sort of thing get anywhere or convince anybody of anything. The trouble always seems to arrive when we try to factor in the numbers of Jews who fled to the Soviet Union.[/QUOTE]
Irving is up to about 1.5 million, at least as of the trial. But your statement is basically what I hold to, in general. As I said, I imagine there are some records out there. Irving said that the key to understanding a German is that he's a bureaucrat, so there are probably lots of records somewhere.
It's an interesting subject, and people like the weenie Hannover and this character posting here now mess it up for reasonable people. Hannover banned several of us on the old CODOH forum after David Thompson (who was a very good moderator) left, and Hannover (Johnny Hargis) took over. I wasn't banned, but after he deleted a bunch of my posts and lied about it, I left and helped found the site I first linked to. As to who the current moderator is, I have reason to believe it will come out soon.
The second forum I linked to has nothing to do with Jews, and as far as I know there aren't any Jewish moderators there, not that this should automatically make it part of a conspiricy.
I think one has to conclude that there were indeed homicidal gassings, especially in the East, but that they have been, and continue to be, greatly exaggerated. As to what the true number is, with the information currently available, it's IMHO as much guess work as anything else.
2004-02-11 01:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SummersDay][color=red]This statement makes it clear that Ponce is Jewish.
This is the latest number that the Jews have agreed to push.[/color][/QUOTE]
I been called many things in my life but never a Jew (Zionist) and i'd rather be called anything else (even an SOB) but a Jew. And if I say 1.2 millions is because I done my research and the only way that you can fight the lies is with the truth...... "When the truth comes into the light, the lies will hide in the dark",,, Ponce
2004-02-11 01:53 | User Profile
Well, let's see a good argument for your figure.
2004-02-11 03:00 | User Profile
[color=red]Jews at this forum argue both sides of all arguments that they dare argue (which means that they avoid any real discussion of 9-11 (since Jews were responsible for 9-11))
What we see here is the Jew Oliver Cromwell engaging in damage control.[/color]
[QUOTE=Oliver Cromwell]The current figures for Jews killed at Auschwitz is 750,000 give or take a couple hundred thousand. [/QUOTE]
[color=red]The current figures for the total that died at Auschwitz is about 150,000.
The current figures for Jews who died at Auschwitz is 50,000.[/color]
[QUOTE=Oliver Cromwell]The other large killing places are Treblinka[/QUOTE]
[color=red]Not true. Treblinka was a transit point. The legend (from the Nuremberg trials) has it that hundreds of thousands of were steamed to death at Treblinka. Everyone just laughs at this (evidence from the Nuremberg trials) now.[/color]
[QUOTE=Oliver Cromwell]who were said to have been killed with CO gas[/QUOTE]
[color=red]It was also claimed (Nuremberg trials) that hundreds of thousands of were gassed to death, at Treblinka, by the emissions of large diesel engines. However, diesel engines do not produce the quantity of CO that petrol engines produce (diesel engines burn more efficiently and thus produce very little CO) so this proves to be scientifically impossible.[/color]
[color=blue]Oliver Cromwell knows this. That is why he lies and says CO.[/color]
[QUOTE=Oliver Cromwell]The largest numbers killed are said to have been by special forces called the einsatzgruppen.[/QUOTE]
[color=red]This is just false and is the Jews way of topping up numbers which are falling everywhere else.[/color]
2004-02-11 03:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE]The current figures for the total that died at Auschwitz is about 150,000.
The current figures for Jews who died at Auschwitz is 50,000.[/QUOTE]
Yawn. Another minimum wage earner high school drop out who is resentful. But nevertheless, let's see your source. yawn.
2004-02-11 03:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Oliver Cromwell who were said to have been killed with CO gas
It was also claimed (Nuremberg trials) that hundreds of thousands of were gassed to death, at Treblinka, by the emissions of large diesel engines. However, diesel engines do not produce the quantity of CO that petrol engines produce (diesel engines burn more efficiently and thus produce very little CO) so this proves to be scientifically impossible.
Oliver Cromwell knows this. That is why he lies and says CO.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps your command of our language? I said "said" and have held forth the option of further evidence. DUH.
2004-02-11 05:02 | User Profile
I think I'm going to like it here. :cool2: Historically accuracy is important, but should I care how many jews died? :unsure:
2004-02-11 05:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE=cosmocreator]I think I'm going to like it here. :cool2: Historically accuracy is important, but should I care how many jews died? :unsure:[/QUOTE]
Welcome Cosmo,,,,,,, but don't worry, the Jews keep a low profile here, they don 't like to talk about the truth so they try to talk about something else. " When the truth comes into the light, the lies will hide in the dark",,,Ponce
2004-03-03 01:46 | User Profile
Antiseeemitees should like this one.
But the Jews here want to let this one die a quiet death.
2004-03-03 03:13 | User Profile
You two are working together. Good luck. OD isn't VNN.
2004-03-03 15:41 | User Profile
Yggdrasil has a few good pieces on this subject.
On the topic of diesel engines, one of the revisionists sites has a good article on the topic. I forget which one at the moment, but if you research the topic you will discover indeed that diesel engines are very poor choices for killing people with CO.
It's why diesel engines were used in submarines: diesels eliminated the possibility of accidently killing the submarine's crew. The Germans did have some mini-submarines, one man submarines, late in the war, that used gas engines (diesels were scarce and were earmarked for use by the larger ocean going subs), and the allies frequently found these subs floating in the English Channel, the minisub's pilot having been killed by CO in spite of the hatch being open, thanks to their gasoline engines.
Diesels were so scarce (in terms of military allocation), in fact, that the Germans had to use gasoline engines for their tanks, instead of the diesels that made the Russian T34s so effective. Diesels are better for tanks, since they don't burn as easily as gasoline engines when hit by enemy fire.
Germans would be unlikely to deprive their submarines of much needed diesel engines, when gasoline engines were more plentiful, and much more deadly, had they wanted to use this method of execution.
So for these reasons and others, "eyewitness" accounts of Germans killing large numbers of Jews with CO from diesel engines (in porous wooden buildings, no less) are highly dubious. These stories have the odor of being spun rapidly by various hucksters, who were unfamiliar with the technology and thus made ludicrious claims unknowingly. These stories really are ad hoc and of an "urban myth" or a deliberate slander campaign in nature.
[url]http://home.ddc.net/ygg/rj/rj-01.htm[/url]
YGGDRASIL
[url]http://home.ddc.net/ygg/rj/rj-10.htm[/url]
YGGDRASIL
Tender Hearts of The SS
[url]http://home.ddc.net/ygg/rj/rj-14.htm[/url]
YGGDRASIL
YGGDRASILL'S HOLOCAUST FAQ
On the topic of Jewish population statistics, read here about some of the implications of Jewish population transfers, not only for understanding the Holocaust, but also understanding the issue of Jewish influence both within the former USSR and currently in the USA. The ability of the USSR to move Jewish populations out of "harms way" during WWII not only depresses the numbers of potential Jewish holocaust victims, it also opens a window to understanding how Jewish elites work to maintain their power in diverse societies.
[url]http://home.ddc.net/ygg/rj/rj-32.htm[/url]
Yggdrasil
Princeton Tries to Explain a Drop in Jewish Enrollment; or "What is Communism?"
Folks, as you can tell from the title, this post is about the "inner party." For an explanation of "inner party." see "What It Would Take to Cleanse Serbia"
Specifically, it is about the durability of the inner party. Can it keep its power? Can it last? (............) But by way of introduction, I must discuss the three basic strategies of the inner party for coping with exposure.
If the facts underlying the exposure are wrong, the media will quickly carry stories from the university professor contingent of the inner party and demonstrate that the facts are false.
If the facts underlying the exposure are true, then the inner party will use its anti-defamation forces to demonize the one doing the exposing. The argumentum ad hominem is the most important visible tool in the inner party's defensive arsenal.
However, the most damaging forms of exposure typically are those that would threaten the cooperation of the elites of the outer party and thus endanger inner party' control over these elites. The inner party has a strategy for handling such exposures. They are ignored. I call it the "blackout" strategy.
Thus, the most interesting and important facts about the inner party are those which are unmentioned and ignored. Truly dangerous critics of the inner party are routinely subjected to the blackout. Gore Vidal slipped down the memory hole a long time ago.
And indeed, the most important intellectual quality that we can develop - the most important for the long run survival of our people - is to detect a "blackout " and pursue its mysteries until the underlying riddle is understood.
And the "holy grail" - the mother or all inner party blackouts - is the utter void of information or meaningful commentary about the process by which the members of the inner party were maneuvered out of the top ranks of the Soviet Hierarchy from 1928 through about 1940.
How could the inner party, who's members occupied 90% of the top positions in the Soviet Union in 1924, including virtually all the top positions in the secret police, concentration camp system and intelligence agencies ever be displaced by Stalin and his badly outnumbered allies?
Enquiring minds want to know. (............) In frustration, and as if by fateful accident, I picked up Walter Sanning's revisionist classic "The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry," a book I have owned for some time but never read, to see if it contained any clues.
Sanning's essential thesis is that, because of the well documented evacuation of Jews from Western Soviet territories prior to their occupation by Germany following Germany's attack in 1941, Germany never had more than about 3.5 million Jews under its control from 1938 through 1945. Given the 900,000 to one million Jews alive in the camps at the end of the war, the maximum number that could have been killed appears to be about 2.5 million and not six million. Sanning then goes on to produce a number of very complex estimates and calculations in an attempt to show that the number unaccounted for after the war was far less than 2.5 million.
To my surprise, I found buried within Sannings work the "holy grail" - hard statistical evidence of how communist society actually worked - its very core and essence exposed for all to see! Surprisingly, Sanning himself apparently missed its true significance.
In preparation for war with Germany, Stalin build huge factories in Siberia - half of them empty - to supply his war effort if Germany should thrust into Russian territory and capture it. In addition, he developed plans for the movement of manufacturing equipment and the evacuation of key industrial personnel in the event that the industrial cities in Poland,Belarus, Ukraine, the Baltic republics and Western Russia should be captured. The publicly stated idea was to preserve Soviet industry in the event of successful attack and to deny that industrial capability to the Germans if the Western Russian territories and republics should be overrun.
But, of course, there was a second unspoken purpose to this evacuation program as well. In this evacuation approximately 55% of the urban or city population was evacuated along with the industrial machinery.
The entire rural or agricultural population was left for the Germans to capture along with about 45% of the urban population.
Ok, so who stays and who goes?
Answer that question and you have captured the essence of communist society - its actual deeds and not its words. From page 81:
"Ukrainians were a minority in their own cities; only 47.4% of all city people in the SSR Ukraine were Ukrainians and the remaining 52.6% were largely accounted for by Russians (25%) and Jews (23%). Both of these latter two nationalities occupied most of the important positions in industry, party and administration; in the eyes of the Ukrainians they represented the long and heavy hand of Moscow. The entire grotesque situation is depicted in the professional structure of the Ukraine's pre-war population:" (............) When the Germans "liberated" the Ukraine, they found a decapitated society, largely incapable of producing the essentials of civilized life, or indeed, of feeding themselves. In the words of a German officer responsible for performing a quick census [page 62]:
"The Russian and Jewish upper classes withdrew together with the Red Army. The leading Ukrainians have been partially deported and, if they held leading positions in administration and industry, they were also forced to move east of the Dnieper. Numerous tractor and other specialists on the countryside met the same fate. In June, many young men were called up and put in garrison in the interior of the USSR.... Because of this development there is a tremendous scarcity of people capable of assuming responsible positions in administration, industry and agriculture in the Ukraine..."
Similar patterns of packing minorities into the upper middle classes of the ethnic republics can be seen in the Baltic Republics (Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia) as well as Belarus.
Indeed, it appears that the very essence of Communism is ethnic manipulation and population transfer. It is a pattern that holds true even at the top of the communist party structure. In the early days following the revolutions of 1917-1918, none of the top officials in Moscow were ethnic Russians. In fact, a large number grew up in New York. Most of the top leaders felt compelled to change their names to conceal their ethnic origins. Among the first politburo, inner party members like Leon Bronshtein (Trotsky), Hirsch Apfelbaum (Zinoviev), and Lev Rosenfeld (Kamenev) felt compelled to change their names. Lenin himself was a mix of German, Swedish, Jewish, Kalmyk (Asian) and Russian ancestry - the very poster boy for a world in which nationality had been abolished - or so it would seem. Nevertheless, the inner party had a compelling need to cover up his ancestry and paint him a pure-bred Russian (instead of the grandson of a well-to-do Jewish Doctor).
At the center in Moscow it was Georgians (Stalin, Beria), Latvians (Berzin) and Ukrainians (Kruschev) supported by a large cast of inner party members who shape party decisions by controlling the information flow. In the ethnic provinces the local administration consisted of ethnic Russians along with the inner party members.
The entire Communist system was based on manipulation of race and national origin for control - and the central mechanism for maintaining that control was decapitation - the extermination or the mass transfer of the leaders of an ethnic group, and the total dependence of the remaining native population upon imported or native minorities who managed the government and the business enterprises and dominated the learned professions.
The important point is that all forms of inner-party communism, the violent Bolshevik variety and the newer "democratic socialist" variety invented by the Frankfurt school, direct their demographic engineering effort at the elites - not the ordinary working people.
The sine-qua-non of inner party power is a multi-cultural elite alienated from its tribal and racial kinsmen.
It is the native elites - the indigenous leaders who might resist the inner party's drive for power - that are always the target.
To the inner party, the masses of any nation are at all times totally irrelevant to their goal of acquiring and keeping power. The masses of the nations were important in the Soviet Union as labor, a fungible factor of production in an economic system focused on output. The Marxist concept that each hour of their labor was of equal value tells you all you need to know about the inner party's regard for them.
And in war time, the masses were readily abandoned, as the real nation proved to be a relatively small and mobile alliance of minorities and uprooted majority careerists.
For the reform version of communism developed by the Frankfurt School that now dominates the ââ¬Ëliberal democracies" and the NWO, the masses of the nations are important as consumers - cogs in the machinery of debt creation and credit card impulse purchases. The masses of the nations are to be manipulated by television and opinion polls - Annie the Analyzer of Radio Project fame and focus groups to pre-test manipulative messages.
What remains relevant to the inner party are the inner party's potential competitors, the native national elites with community ties to their brethren.
In the Soviet Union, the inner party elites (using Lenin and Stalin as their cover) resorted to murder and forced resettlement to remove the native national elites, a fast, direct and brutal form of decapitation.
In the "liberal democracies" the inner party uses a slower and less visibly brutal method of decapitation. Thus, in the liberal democracies of today we have "affirmative action" - a set of laws that places tremendous pressure on private businesses to displace native elites at the top with minorities who will be less plausible targets of discrimination lawsuits. These laws exist everywhere in the European world, and with the exception of the U.S. were enacted long before any significant minority constituencies (other than the inner party itself) existed to lobby for their passage.
The entire program of displacement and decapitation within the liberal democracies was carefully drawn up and explained in "The Authoritarian Personality" by Theodor Adorno, et. al.(1947). It is a prescription for identifying any person who displays any bond of obligation to his own kind and the will to resist those who threaten the interests of his kind.
Such "authoritarian personalities" are to be denied university admission and consigned to low status occupations, which is precisely what the laws of affirmative action and social rules of political correctness accomplish.
Indeed, as I read the tables from the 1939 Soviet census published in Sanning's work I recalled my own research showing that the inner party, representing 2.4% of the U.S. population comprises 28% of the student body at Harvard, while the descendants of European Christendom comprising 70% of the population supply only 18% of the students. The American Majority has been effectively displaced at Harvard. Relative to their share of the Population, they have 2.4 times fewer students than do the inner party's Afro-American coalition partners.
In the top 15 national universities in the 1997 ranking by U.S. News, the results are similar. The inner party has 22% of the students, while the descendants of European Christendom have only 32% - roughly half of their share of the population.
The United States Department of Labor has maintained a tracking study of 12,000 young people who were between the ages of 14 and 22 in 1979 known as the National Longitudinal study of Youth ("NLSY"). The CD Roms with all the data can be purchased from Ohio State University. These data show that at each given level of IQ (all participants were tested) the income and educational attainment of the descendants of European Christendom is much lower than for Blacks, Hispanics and Inner party members of the same IQ.
In what will surely be a surprise to most middle and upper middle income Euro-Americans, the effects are most pronounced at the highest IQ levels. In other words, it is the majority elite that suffers the widest disparity in income and education when compared with Blacks, Hispanics and Inner Party members within the same IQ range. When the effects are broken down by sex, we find that among males the disparity is most pronounced in the highest IQ ranges and disappears entirely by the time you descend to the 50% mark. The widest disparity exists among the top 2% of the population (those with IQs above 130).
Majority males with IQs below 100 earn the same or slightly more than their Black, Hispanic and Inner Party counterparts.
It is among the female descendants of European Christendom, those most likely to support "affirmative action", "women's liberation" and the other demographic engineering efforts of the inner party, that we find the widest and most shocking income disparities. Among females, the disparity is not confined to the top half of the IQ spectrum, but persistsfrom top to bottom at consistent levels at each IQ range.
Indeed, if one were to view these data as the result of a purposeful system, then the object of the multi-culturalist enterprise is clearly two fold - first to displace and disadvantage majority males at the top of the IQ spectrum and second, to exploit majority women from top to bottom. At each level of IQ they are paid dramatically less than their Black, Hispanic and inner party counterparts with the same IQ.
Displacement of majority elites might not be as complete in the U.S. in 1999 as it was in The Soviet Union in 1939, but the trend is clear and runs in the same direction.
Indeed the most important data reproduced in Sanning's little book are tables setting forth the demographic composition of towns and cities in Central and Eastern Poland and statistics on the distribution of occupations from a 1931 Polish census: (............)