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Thread 12109

Thread ID: 12109 | Posts: 117 | Started: 2003-07-27

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Mr. Tsun [OP]

2003-07-27 04:30 | User Profile

The National Alliance, Incorporated: A ZOG False Flag Combat Cell

by “Maguire”

The key to understanding the National Alliance (NA) is understanding the real structure of the NA. The National Alliance is a private for-profit corporation chartered by the Commonwealth of Virginia (not West Virginia). The NA has stockholders, officers, directors and customers. Dr. Pierce's 'chairmanship' was always chairman of the Board of Directors of this Virginia for profit corporation. The constant introduction of Dr. Pierce as 'Chairman' started in the days when the 'Chairman' of the Communist Party of the USSR was a political figure of importance. The listener was invited to conclude Dr. Pierce was a political figure with the title of 'Chairman', although his chairmanship was of a corporation he owned and operated.

The Virginia Secretary of the Commonwealth's corporate data website reports the current 2003 officers as:

OFFICERS/DIRECTORS DISPLAY FOR AR# 203-14-2156

LT NAME TITLE SIGN

B FRED GENE STREED PRESIDENT
B KATHERINE MOLZ VICE PRESIDENT
B ROBERT A DEMARAIS SECRETARY
B ERICH J GLIEBE CHAIRMAN

The National Alliance's publicly registered Virginia address is: 1330 GORDEN WALL CIR APT 402, RESTON, VA 20194. The true spelling is GARDEN WALL CIRCLE. The Fairfax County tax assessor's website reports this address is a condominium owned by NA Vice President Katherine Molz. This address is just outside Washington DC in Fairfax County. The NA's registered address in Fairfax County, Virginia gives it many famous neighbors, including the CIA.

This privately owned corporation is a media company. It has three major profit centers.

The foremost profit center is Resistance Records, a subsidiary the NA owns as Resistance LLC. Resistance Records markets "White Power Music" and related paraphernalia to young white males. This business is 'Chairman' Erich Gliebe's real focus. It's what he did before Dr. Pierce died and it's what he concentrates on now. The second profit center is National Vanguard Books. The NA's secretary, Dr. Robert DeMarais - a former professor of business -, continues to operate National Vanguard Books as he did before Dr. Pierce's death. The third profit center is 'membership dues'. For all practical purposes these National Alliance memberships are merely 'fan club' memberships in what we can fairly term the Dr. William Pierce Fan Club. This is identical to other fan clubs for famous celebrities. These memberships do not confer ownership (i.e. stock). Nor are the corporate officers and directors accountable to the 'members'. This is why the NA even solicits anonymous memberships. What the 'member' purchases is a false sense of belonging to something that is doing something.

The National Alliance, Incorporated, uses two principle forms of advertising to market to its target demographic of young white males. The major advertising channel is the "American Dissident Voices" radio broadcast. Since Dr. Pierce's death Kevin Strom has resumed doing the ADV broadcasts. The American Dissident Voices show was really Kevin Strom's creation. He organized the original shortwave and small town AM/FM network in the 1990s, provided the technical support and occaisionally stood in for Dr. Pierce.

The other 'advertisment' is the midnight 'literature distributions' conducted by the so-called 'Local Units' (i.e. the local Dr. Pierce fan club chapters). This involves spreading NA, Inc approved flyers in neighborhood driveways. The principle objective of these flyer distributions is to get people to contact the National Alliance's main e-commerce website.

**The National Alliance and the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith: A symbiotic relationship. **

The second morning after each literature distribution the local newspaper always runs an Anti-Defamation League written template article about 'hate'. This boilerplate article serves both the National Alliance and the Anti-Defamation League's fund raising goals. The ADL routinely hails the NA as the "most dangerous organization in America", even though ADL 'investigators' have long known about the NA's true structure. The entire transaction scares up more donations for the ADL from neurotic Jews while also recruiting still more customers for the NA. This mechanism is also the major reason the pro-white movement is teeming with so many criminals and borderline psychotics. The NA's only positive goal is to maximize its own profits, just like any other private corporation. In the furtherance of this profit goal the National Alliance, Incorporated has willingly allowed its ostensible deadly enemy, the masonic Jewish supremacists of B'nai B'rith, to define the pro-white cause for the American public.

With minor variations this business model has now been operating for three decades, ever since the National Alliance was incorporated in 1974.

Failure of the 'non-Movement'

There was never any possibility for the NA to progress beyond media operations into becoming a civil and political leadership cadre. The National Alliance, Incorporated collectively can no more participate in direct local politics than can Texaco or IBM. The corporation laws of the State of Virginia debar this. Those in editorial control of National Alliance can exert a background influence on the social and political environment. But this influence will always be proportional to their circulation. Since the NA's circulation is very broad in geographical scope, and the content irrelevant to local conditions or people, the resulting influence is also very superficial. Probably non-existent is a better term. Marc Moran in New Jersey recently discovered the illusionary nature of the existing 'non-Movement' when he attempted venturing into local politics.

Enter Vanguard News Network and ShopWhite.

The Vanguard News Network is currently in the final stages of opening an eBay clone called "ShopWhite". What Bill White and Alex Linder of VNN are doing is making a transparent move on Resistance Records' (the NA's major profit center) consumer base. Presently a White Power Band has very limited options open to it for marketing. They can market through Panzerfaust Records or they can sell through the NA subsidiary, Resistance Records.

White and Linder intend to use ShopWhite to capture Resistance Records' White Power music and paraphernalia market. As Bill White said recently, ShopWhite will be a sole proprietorship with himself as sole proprietor. We can add ShopWhite to his NORFED redemption center franchise and other commercial internet activities. There's a fair amount of money at stake here. The total revenue stream for White Power music CDs and paraphernalia is probably $3 mil to $5 mil per year. To this can added books, tapes and videos of various kinds. Bill White intends to snag 10% or so of this revenue stream for himself. Emphasis on 'so'.

This underlies all the recent smoke on [url=http://www.overthrow.com]www.overthrow.com[/url] about Kevin Strom, Erich Gliebe and others. The Kevin Strom flap is a secondary attack on the NA's major advertising channel (American Dissident Vocies) and an indirect attack on Eric Gliebe and Resistance Records. It is crucial to the success of this effort that it not be seen for the commercial ploy it really is. This is because the customers would be awakened to their own real status both with the NA and in under ShopWhite. White and Linder cannot openly admit they are now commercial competitors with Gliebe, Demarais & Company.

The immediate struggle is a fight over control of existing White Power paraphernalia consumers. It will not add more strength or organization to the unorganized pro-white population, advance them towards political power, or develop subordinate community leaders. Bill White says this will happen but what else could he say? Crucial to the endeavor is maintaining the illusion the 'Movement' as it presently exists is something other than a media marketing scheme.

Alex Linder (and Bill White to a degree) are more honest about what's up than Dr. Pierce ever was. So this may be a healthy puff of fresh air. We'll see how close White comes to eBay openess. Dr. Pierce always maintained a pretense that the NA was some sort of collective organization. The reality is the NA is and always was a private for-profit media company partly organized on the lines of Amway. But it was not as aggressive. Nor was it as effective in sinking in its roots locally for reasons seen above and below.

Neither VNN or its ShopWhite enterprise are going to 'overthrow' the NA, although it will probably reduce NA Inc's. The NA is a private corporation incorporated by the Commonwealth of Virginia. Any thinking person by now is wondering why the government has never taken the simple step of revoking the corporate charter of this 'dangerous terrorist organization', as it's called by the ADL and its agentur in the FBI and the Department of Justice 'Anti-Terrorism Task Force'. They've always had it in their power to do this but found it convenient not to do so for some reason.

The Political Persecution of Chester Doles.

Chester Doles occupied a unique place in the National Alliance. He was the most powerful 'NA leader' who was not actually an employee or director of the National Alliance, Incorporated. By his own efforts and dynamism he had raised his particular local unit in Georgia to several hundred members. Unlike the other delivery boy operations Doles' unit was acquiring real independent life and a community character. Most notable about this unit was its concentration in a small rural area. These 'members' were thus less useful to the NA's business model, while Mr. Doles himself was a dangerous potential competitor. Shortly before his arrest by the ADL lawyers occupying Department of Justice offices Mr. Doles was openly breaking with the National Alliance. He had complained on several occaisions about the large number of federal, ADL and SPLC informers within the National Alliance.

Following Dole's arrest the officers and directors of the National Alliance, Inc., tried to abandon Mr. Doles. Alex Linder and VNN initiated the Chester Doles/Goy Genius challenge to raise $50,000 for Mr. Doles defense. This succeeded and former US Congressman and district attorney Robert Barr has now undertaken Mr. Doles' legal defense against charges lodged by Michael Chertoff, a director of the ADL and Bush political appointee to the Department of Justice.

The National Alliance, Incorporated: A ZOG False Flag combat cell?

Political police in all regimes often use a tactic called a "False Flag" front or combat cell. This operation involves setting up a front organization that appears to be a real opposition group. The purposes of False Flag operations are to capture control of and thus disrupt and prevent any real political opposition from emerging. Potential dissidents are both identified by this means and their efforts and resources diverted into fruitless endeavors. Is the National Alliance, Incorporated a ZOG false flag? This charge has been hurled previously. Let us consider the evidence anew.

1. The private corporation structure and Dr. Pierce's explicit policies permanently foreclosed any attempts at participating in civil politics. Within the closed cult world of the NA that Day of civil participation and legitimacy always lies somewhere off in an undeterminate future. As with the 'Rapture' the precise timing is unknown, is inherently unknowable, but it is coming Soon. In practice the current corporate leadership's tenure always expires before that Day arrives. 'But it is coming Real Soon. And while you wait, buy cds, books and donate money.'

2. None of the real officers, directors, stockholders or employees of this 'dangerous terrorist group' have ever been arrested. They appear to possess a teflon immunity from police interference, even when they harbor international fugitives like Hendrik Moebus.

3. The simple method of destroying this 'dangerous terrorist organization', revoking its Virginia corporate charter, has never been used. The lawyers of the Deparment of Justice, the FBI and the ADL have long been aware of National Alliance, Incorporated. It's a matter of public record.

4. Chester Doles, the most effective leader outside the NA's corporate structure, was arrested. NA Incorporated first tried to abandon him. His defense fund was raised by a revolt among its fans.

Whether the officers, directors, stockholders or employees of NA Incorporated are conscious agents is really irrelevant. "By their fruits ye shall know them", said one Teacher. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck....

"Maguire"

** My Comments:** Maguire was kind enough to write this in response to some questions I asked him. He also told me that he has mixed emotions about all this. He thinks the true nature of the NA and its real track record should be more widely known. He doesn't think it's necessarialy bad that Alex and VNN supercede NA, Inc. as an outlet. After all, Alex Linder's editorial policy is much broader than that of "Pierce's totalitarian cult/regime."

Still, Maguire said he thinks people need to recognize the limitations to this particular aspect of pro-white, meaning media and advertising. He told me, "We need to have it, but we can't allow it to become a goy version of ZOG Media, Inc."

I (Tsun) agree with Maguire on the above. As for Bill White, some people say they trust him, others say they don't. However, the simple fact is that even if someone is entirely trust-worthy, it may be best not to leave him (or her) with the keys to your kingdom, or place all your eggs in that basket. My advice is to trust everybody, BUT... cut the cards. Many good friendships and business relationships have been spoiled when people have neglected to do that.

Regards, Tsun

P.S. If you want to know more about false flag operations and herders for the sheep, take a look at the following URLs:

Who Silenced the Outcry: (Phony Christian Conservatives) [url=http://www.sweetliberty.org//wolves2.htm]http://www.sweetliberty.org//wolves2.htm[/url]

Wolves in Sheep's Clothing: (How many names do you recognize?) [url=http://www.sweetliberty.org/wolves.htm]http://www.sweetliberty.org/wolves.htm[/url]

Also see Revilo Oliver's comments about how the John Birch Society was used for the same purpose: [url=http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/NetLoss/NetLoss-Oliver.html]http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/NetLoss/Ne...oss-Oliver.html[/url]

You could also take a gander at Joe Farah's "World Net Daily." That's a false flag operation aimed at conservatives, if ever there was one. Rush Limbaugh, too! As many of you know.

In my opinion, the most harmful thing the National Alliance has done is to help shape the perception that supporting one's race and heritage is "hateful" and means "murdering everybody," etc. The fact that most NA "members" (well, they imagine that they are members) are fine people of above average intellect has no bearing on this.

Okiereddust

2003-07-27 05:42 | User Profile

Originally posted by Mr. Tsun@Jul 27 2003, 04:30 * .......In the furtherance of this profit goal the National Alliance, Incorporated has willingly allowed its ostensible deadly enemy, the masonic Jewish supremacists of B'nai B'rith, to define the pro-white cause for the American public*............

...........The National Alliance, Incorporated:  A ZOG False Flag combat cell?

Political police in all regimes often use a tactic called a "False Flag" front or combat cell.  This operation involves setting up a front organization that appears to be a real opposition group.  The purposes of False Flag operations are to capture control of and thus disrupt and prevent any real political opposition from emerging.  Potential dissidents are both identified by this means and their efforts and resources diverted into fruitless endeavors.    Is the National Alliance, Incorporated a ZOG false flag?  This charge has been hurled previously.  Let us consider the evidence anew.

1.  The private corporation structure and Dr. Pierce's explicit policies permanently foreclosed any attempts at participating in civil politics. Within the closed cult world of the NA that Day of civil participation and legitimacy always lies somewhere off in an undeterminate future.  As with the 'Rapture' the precise timing is unknown, is inherently unknowable, but it is coming Soon.  In practice the current corporate leadership's tenure always expires before that Day arrives.  'But it is coming Real Soon.  And while you wait, buy cds, books and donate money.'

2.  None of the real officers, directors, stockholders or employees of this 'dangerous terrorist group' have ever been arrested.  They appear to possess a teflon immunity from police interference, even when they harbor international fugitives like Hendrik Moebus.

3.  The simple method of destroying this 'dangerous terrorist organization', revoking its Virginia corporate charter, has never been used.  The lawyers of the Deparment of Justice, the FBI and the ADL have long been aware of National Alliance, Incorporated.  It's a matter of public record.

4.  Chester Doles, the most effective leader outside the NA's corporate structure, was arrested.  NA Incorporated first tried to abandon him.  His defense fund was raised by a revolt among its fans.

Whether the officers, directors, stockholders or employees of NA Incorporated are conscious agents is really irrelevant.  "By their fruits ye shall know them", said one Teacher. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck....

"Maguire"

** My Comments:.............

In my opinion, the most harmful thing the National Alliance has done is to help shape the perception that supporting one's race and heritage is "hateful" and means "murdering everybody," etc. The fact that most NA "members" (well, they imagine that they are members) are fine people of above average intellect has no bearing on this.**

Very good investigatory article, Tsun. IMO opinion though the most inciteful comment is the > ****Whether the officers, directors, stockholders or employees of NA Incorporated are conscious agents is really irrelevant.  "By their fruits ye shall know them", said one Teacher. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck.... ** .

Really then therefore this general criticism of Pierce's organization can equally be applied to VNN. They certainly seem to have both similar rhetoric and similar competing financial goals, even if organizationally they belong to apparently competing factions, and if they differed on their approach to Chester Doles.

Thanks Tsun. By a very hard-to-explain (at least by normative types of occurrences) coincidence you just helped answer the question I had just asked.

**Also is their present dominance within the present dominance within the WN movement through the National Alliance and VNN just a natural result of WN politics, or could perhaps, as often happens in WN politics, outside forces be playing a role in centrifugal forces in WN/"White Supremacist" groups?      :ph34r: [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=9712&st=0#entry52921] A Interesting Review of "Culture of Critique"[/url] **

Certainly the NA appears to have been persecuted far less than other radical WN groups such as the Klan. Could the reasons for this be the ones Tsun suggests, that the NA's brand ideology is preferrable and less dangerous to the ADL and government than that of some of the other WN groups? With regard to Christianity, it certainly seems so, as most reviews of the ADL's attitude vis a vis the WN movement seems to indicate the ADL is particulary fixated on CI to the exclusion of all else (consonent with the ADL and Jewish groups general fixation on Christianity as the root of all evil (sound familiar).

Whether the religious stance of the NA was considered important by the ADL or not in its subterraneon deliberations on the NA, the overall determination that > the National Alliance, Incorporated has willingly allowed its ostensible deadly enemy, the masonic Jewish supremacists of B'nai B'rith, to define the pro-white cause for the American public

certainly likely seems deletorious for the WN movement from a number of other points as well and plausibly likely. One would think it prudent now in the WN movement to take a careful look both at the NA organization itself and the asumptions and prejudices inherent in the development of its ideology, as I have long argued.

Okiereddust

2003-07-27 13:34 | User Profile

Originally posted by wintermute@Jul 27 2003, 07:38 * > In my opinion, the most harmful thing the National Alliance has done is to help shape the perception that supporting one's race and heritage is "hateful" and means "murdering everybody," etc.*

Agreed. ** I'd agree to, with the caveat that the NA will probably say that when you are "supporting one's race and heritage" you will invariably be accussed of being "hateful" and really wanting to be "murdering everybody," etc. As will the rest of us.

Certainly there are some groups that act like provocateurs. But it is certainly rhetorically funny to borrow our enemies language and say we are looking for "hate groups" within the WN movement.

**> ** The fact that most NA "members" (well, they imagine that they are members) are fine people of above average intellect has no bearing on this. **

They would be better served by a new political/cultural model. Certainly Marc Moran would have been.** They would have been better served by a better political/cultural model. Is new necessarily better? Is VNN necessarily say better or even different than NA? Supposedly that's our whole point here, to discuss real alternatives. Do we do so, and have we come up with any? Our opinions here certainly differ.

> Certainly the NA appears to have been persecuted far less than other radical WN groups such as the Klan. **

I don't know that this is true. I may be mistaken, but the Klan (a somewhat disorganized operation) is involved in more attacks on property than the NA. Also, Chester Doles prosecution seems quite real.**

Read Tsun's explanation of Chester Doles prosecution vis the mainstream NA again. There are as David Dke said a multitude of Klans, but again Tsun describes the NA as doing and getting away with at least some of the things Klans elsewhere have been persecuted for.

> With regard to Christianity, it certainly seems so, as most reviews of the ADL's attitude vis a vis the WN movement seems to indicate the ADL is particulary fixated on CI to the exclusion of all else **

If this is true, then the rest of us have nothing to worry about. Your implicit defence of CI strikes a very odd chord indeed, Okie. I do not see how the 'Aryan Nations', a CI outfit, is somehow more 'lovey dovey' or good for the public image than the Klan or the NA. What's your interest in them?

** One would think it prudent now in the WN movement to take a careful look both at the NA organization itself and the asumptions and prejudices inherent in the development of its ideology, as I have long argued. **

I think the WN 'movement' should be looking beyond the NA, the Klan, and CI. Hate politics is a real cul de sac, with a limited audience. As for the CI folks, my attitude towards them is just as for other Jews: God has given you the lands between the Nile and the Euphrates. Go there and leave us in peace.**

Although I do not consider myself CI, I am not sure exactly if there is a coherent definition for CI or organized center, or if CI is just sometimes used as a perjorative. Everytime a WN mentions Christianity it seems in WN sounding terms he will probably be called CI.

Some (if not most) of CI's theology is undoubtedly silly, as with a great many small fringe Christian cults. But in general, the CI stance does not put the WN movement in the same cul de sac of demanding the renouncement/virtual internal abolition of Christianity before the WN movement can go forward. CI and CI's have its/their tics, but there's nothing in it that prohibits them from working with other WN of differing Christian beliefs, or even non-Christian beliefs. The NA's stance is pretty much the exact opposite.

Therefore as a basic to "move on" from (which I certainly agree with) CI I think offers a better base to build from. That really is all I am saying.

**Tsun - Good to see you again and welcome to the board.

Wintermute**

I very much agree. BTW Mr. Tsun, do you have a link for this article?

NeoNietzsche

2003-07-27 14:11 | User Profile

Originally posted by Okiereddust@Jul 27 2003, 07:34 * Some (if not most) of CI's theology is undoubtedly silly,...*

And the measure of silliness in theology is.... :huh:

Bardamu

2003-07-27 14:36 | User Profile

If anybody is a Fed it is Bill White. This is all a ploy to destroy the NA. Who is the new guy on the block? The fact that NA is a for profit company signifies nothing so far as a False Flag operation goes. Look at Bill White, and look who he attacks. There is a concerted effort to ruin the reputation of Kevin Alfred Strom. Think about this. KAS is the man who has the rights to Revilo Oliver's writings. Find someone who has better bona fides than that: Linder of Missouri, who is financed by a mysterious millionaire who is also shopping for a used aircraft carrier? What the Feds are doing, possibly, is manuevering to take over leadership of the patriot movement. While they do this they will destroy one by one real leaders with real bona fides. They will get rid of Stormfront -- which may have immature posters, some knuckledraggers, and so forth; but one thing it is is Legitimate, that's with a capital L. After they have dethroned patriotisms best leaders they will, uning the patriot act, do a sweep on rank and file members (you folks) who have compromised themselves in writing somehow; and finally, as icing on the cake, they will do what a huge public revelation of the method and expose themselves as the Feds they are -- thus permanently demoralizing the organized movement. Don't trust anybody that calls themselves patriotic but spends most of their time attacking other patriots, patriots that are bona fided, hear that Bill White? It stinks of co-intellipro.

Oklahomaman

2003-07-27 14:48 | User Profile

And the measure of silliness in theology is.... Nietzsche's utterance "God is Dead".

NeoNietzsche

2003-07-27 14:58 | User Profile

Originally posted by Oklahomaman@Jul 27 2003, 08:48 * And the measure of silliness in theology is....* Nietzsche's utterance "God is Dead".

What do you think Nietzsche meant by this?

The Skunk

2003-07-27 16:23 | User Profile

Mr. Tsun

The fact that these organizations passed over Moellemann (German politician assassinated by Mossad ) - or 9/11 - or USS Cole - has to make you wonder.

Nat Alliance hits me as way too professional - quite a bit of money invested - I wouldn't consider it out of the realm that these are jewish false flags

Bardamu

2003-07-27 16:54 | User Profile

Originally posted by The Skunk@Jul 27 2003, 10:23 * ** Nat Alliance hits me as way too professional - quite a bit of money invested - I wouldn't consider it out of the realm that these are jewish false flags*

Professionalism is now suspicious? Oh boy...

Bardamu

2003-07-27 17:12 | User Profile

I got it! Lets ruin Kevin Strom's reputation and replace him with Alex Linder. Alex Linder's tech guy will of course be none other than Bill White. Yes, lets give Bill White system administrator status on the National Alliance server. No problem there, since he can't be accused of being professional we needn't worry that he is a fed-ADL-Mossad plant.

Wayland

2003-07-27 17:26 | User Profile

Originally posted by Bardamu@Jul 27 2003, 07:36 * If anybody is a Fed it is Bill White. This is all a ploy to destroy the NA. Who is the new guy on the block? The fact that NA is a for profit company signifies nothing so far as a False Flag operation goes. Look at Bill White, and look who he attacks. There is a concerted effort to ruin the reputation of Kevin Alfred Strom. Think about this. KAS is the man who has the rights to Revilo Oliver's writings. Find someone who has better bona fides than that:  Linder of Missouri, who is financed by a mysterious millionaire who is also shopping for a used aircraft carrier? What the Feds are doing, possibly, is manuevering to take over leadership of the patriot movement. While they do this they will destroy one by one real leaders with real bona fides. They will get rid of Stormfront -- which may have immature posters, some knuckledraggers, and so forth; but one thing it is is Legitimate, that's with a capital L. After they have dethroned patriotisms best leaders they will, uning the patriot act, do a sweep on rank and file members (you folks) who have compromised themselves in writing somehow; and finally, as icing on the cake, they will do what a huge public revelation of the method and expose themselves as the Feds they are -- thus permanently demoralizing the organized movement. Don't trust anybody that calls themselves patriotic but spends most of their time attacking other patriots, patriots that are bona fided, hear that Bill White? It stinks of co-intellipro.*

Well said Bardamu. This article certainly has the stink of Bill White on it, as do most of the letters on the VNN letters page which praise Bill White while attacking the National Alliance.

And much of what "Maguire" wrote in this article stinks like the [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=9670&st=0&#entry52597]excrement il ragno dragged in here[/url] and wiped on the carpet, which then inspired wintermute, who must have decided we were suffering a shortage in outrageous, unsupported, defamatory accusations directed against the likes of Zundel and Duke, [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=9670&st=0&#entry52732]to promptly extend a warm welcome[/url] to all and sundry who might top us up in that department. Claims such as the one here that William Pierce really set up the National Alliance as a "false flag" operation for the government are just idiotic, but as we've seen time and again, there's no shortage of gullible readers on the white side of the racial fence.

Okiereddust

2003-07-27 20:06 | User Profile

Originally posted by Bardamu@Jul 27 2003, 17:12 * I got it! Lets ruin Kevin Strom's reputation and replace him with Alex Linder. Alex Linder's tech guy will of course be none other than Bill White. Yes, lets give Bill White system administrator status on the National Alliance server. No problem there, since he can't be accused of being professional we needn't worry that he is a fed-ADL-Mossad plant.*

Now all you guys have got me really conflicted. KAS, Linder, NA, VNN, Bill White, which do I choose? I just can't make up my mind, it's such a tough decision. :lol:

I could throw in another possibility. You know, besides the "false flag", scenario, there's another tack used by infiltrators - the false fight. That's when an organization, whose behavior is so monolithic its starting to arouse suspicion, creates a phony internal split and little pro forma internal wars to convey the appearance of individual initiative and originality. In fact, if you read Tsun's article, he sort of is hinting that this is what happening. Both Linder and the NA seem to basically be rather questionable, in their organization, methodology, and motives, at least from the standpoint of the purpose they are selling to their membership.

I agree with Tsun that we need not determine what the exact motives or agenga of the principles are.

Whether the officers, directors, stockholders or employees of NA Incorporated are conscious agents is really irrelevant. "By their fruits ye shall know them", said one Teacher. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck....

I'd like to advance my own metaphor. The French have a saying "as stupid as a customs agent". Maybe we should have a similar saying "acting as stupid as a provocateur".

Bardamu

2003-07-27 20:27 | User Profile

Now all you guys have got me really conflicted.  KAS, Linder, NA, VNN, Bill White, which do I choose?  I just can't make up my mind, it's such a tough decision. :lol:

There are only two choices from which to choose here since KAS works at NA and Bill White, and Linder work at VNN.

Reject the brat White because he looks, waddles, and quacks like an agent provocateur, and because he delights in attacking his own, ostensible, allies; so whether he is a zog agent, or just an asshole doesn't really matter.

You know, besides the "false flag", scenario, there's another tack used by infiltrators - the false fight.  That's when an organization, whose behavior is so monolithic its starting to arouse suspicion, creates a phony internal split and little pro forma internal wars to convey the appearance of individual initiative and originality .

This isn't an internal split such as was the case when Billy Roper was shown the door. In addition, there is no such thing as a monolithic organization in the patriotic movement, which is famously splintered into a thousand pieces, which is probably a strength, and certainly keeps things interesting.

It is not confusing at all, Bill White is a sh*t stirrer. Avoided the bastard. As well, respect and honor those intellectuals on our side who are bona fide. We have a few of them. Men who we know are legit. They should be honored not smeared. Anyone who smears them should be regarded with suspicion.

Ragnar

2003-07-27 20:46 | User Profile

*Originally posted by The Skunk@Jul 27 2003, 16:23 * ** Nat Alliance hits me as way too professional - quite a bit of money invested - I wouldn't consider it out of the realm that these are jewish false flags **

Mister Skunk,

Careful! I raised exactly this point here awhile back and I'm still digging the broken glass out of my toes.

People don't like their illusions broken. For American whites, the illusion is that if non-whites get too obvious about replacing them, there's always WHITE POWER. Sure there is, ducky. An almost invisible collection of flimflam artists and felons with a tiny audience on the internet and nowhere else.

Slender reed indeed, even if the whole thing is not an ADL-CIA production.

Bardamu

2003-07-27 21:59 | User Profile

Ragnar,

Any suggestions other than generalized hopelessness?

Hugh Lincoln

2003-07-27 23:01 | User Profile

So wait... Kevin Alfred Strom is Keyser Soze? Or Bill White? I'm confused. When the guy with the funny walk all of a sudden starting walking normally, that was Alex Linder all along? Man. Right up until the minute the lady who didn't talk drove past the building, I was convinced that Erich Gliebe was onto the whole thing. But I didn't see that one coming.

But seriously. That NA is basically a glorified book club-cum-Dr. Pierce cult has never been in dispute. From what I can see it does a fine job of selling books, has an erstwhile but quality magazine, good radio broadcasts and provides White nationalist fellowship. What's the big deal? That there is "tumult" within "far right circles" as might be reported is hardly surprising. There's "tumult" within the Democrats every day; few attribute it to cloak-and-dagger escapades. Consider that White nationalism is fringe to begin with and does not - even by the admission of most adherents - always attract the most stable personalities, and it becomes even less surprising. What's important is that the ideas, which are legitimate, get out there, and that believers act together to bring about change. I wouldn't shy away from White nationalism just because it appears to be falling apart at any given moment. What's to fall apart?

False flag is a tempting idea for the conspiracy theorist, but I kinda doubt it. That doesn't account for Chester Doles, who WAS arrested.

As for Bill White, the jury's still out and they've sent a note back with the court officer that they will be for some time.

Wayland

2003-07-27 23:56 | User Profile

Originally posted by Ragnar@Jul 27 2003, 13:46 * *People don't like their illusions broken.  For American whites, the illusion is that if non-whites get too obvious about replacing them, there's always WHITE POWER.  Sure there is, ducky.  An almost invisible collection of flimflam artists and felons with a tiny audience on the internet and nowhere else. 

Slender reed indeed, even if the whole thing is not an ADL-CIA production.**

Ragnar, your instincts are correct. Anywhere people with pro-White racialist views congregate, there will be people slithering in among them (us) with an anti-white agenda, people attempting to disrupt or manipulate the discussion, derail the agenda, and trying to break-up any white racial solidarity. It's a given. It's automatic. And it's all part of the larger campaign to destroy whites, the campaign led by the people who hate us. It's built in to the mass media, it's in the cultural messages we're bombarded with every day, and it's in our own fledgling pro-white media. There will always be somebody trying to deceive us, trying to drive as apart, somebody working to prevent us from ever coalescing into anything that can challenge their power. It's there all the time. We have to accept that fact and deal with it.

And that's why it's so important that we judge people by their actions. Just showing up isn't good enough. We always need to be asking ourselves "Is this person trying to deceive me? Are they trying to plant false ideas here? Is what this person is saying building or destroying white unity?" We'll encounter this every day and we need to be aware of it. And we need to refine our abilities to discriminate on these issues so we can make the best judgements possible when confronted with these campaigns designed to sow discord and discontent among our rank and file. Submit everything to scrutiny; look at the record, and as Bardamu says, go with those who have the "real bona fides".

When we see our best people being attacked we need to ask ourselves if, just possibly, the attacker(s) could be an enemy rather than a friend. Does that make sense?

Okiereddust

2003-07-28 00:07 | User Profile

Originally posted by Hugh Lincoln@Jul 27 2003, 23:01 * But seriously.  That NA is basically a glorified book club-cum-Dr. Pierce cult has never been in dispute.  From what I can see it does a fine job of selling books, has an erstwhile but quality magazine, good radio broadcasts and provides White nationalist fellowship.  What's the big deal?  That there is "tumult" within "far right circles" as might be reported is hardly surprising.  There's "tumult" within the Democrats every day;  few attribute it to cloak-and-dagger escapades.  Consider that White nationalism is fringe to begin with and does not - even by the admission of most adherents - always attract the most stable personalities, and it becomes even less surprising.  What's important is that the ideas, which are legitimate, get out there, and that believers act together to bring about change.  I wouldn't shy away from White nationalism just because it appears to be falling apart at any given moment.  What's to fall apart?*

I don't see you building confidence or inspiring hope Hugh. The NA's advertising don't depict it as just "glorified book club". If it's ideas aren't reliable with regard to itself, how can it legitimately asset the correctness of and sell its ideas on everything else?

**False flag is a tempting idea for the conspiracy theorist, but I kinda doubt it.  That doesn't account for Chester Doles, who WAS arrested.

**

Did you read the Tsun's article at all Hugh? His theory was quite convincing to me. A home office centralized clique, just selling books, doesn't worry anybody. When someone like Doles starts to make some serious headway though he's perceived as a threat, not only to the authorities, but to the obstructionists - people who really like things the way they are, and see activity outside their ranks as a threat to their own power, potential provocation to the authorities, and generally just something that wll cause them extra work - and they are relieved to see him out of the way.

Maguire's article doesn't connect all the dots, but here it makes a lot of sense. "Revolutionary" organizations, even if not overtly compromised (never something to completely rule out with anybody you don't know like your own brother) often develop tacit understandings with the authorities, and underneath blustery rhetoric, become very conservative in their activities and thinking.

Franco

2003-07-28 00:11 | User Profile

Naw, NA is not a false flag. I can "vouche for" [more or less] a person directly related to name #1 above. I can't comment further.

As far as Bill White goes, who knows?

Wayland

2003-07-28 00:15 | User Profile

[QUOTE]But seriously.  That NA is basically a glorified book club-cum-Dr. Pierce cult has never been in dispute.  From what I can see it does a fine job of selling books, has an erstwhile but quality magazine, good radio broadcasts and provides White nationalist fellowship.  What's the big deal?

Hugh, why don't you tell us what the big deal is. If the NA does some good things but is otherwise basically harmless, why all the attacks launched from VNN?

As for Bill White, the jury's still out and they've sent a note back with the court officer that they will be for some time.

The jury is in - Bill White was, is, and has always been an anti-racist, commie anarchist with no allegiance to anyone but himself. [url=http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=78265]http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=78265[/url] [url=http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=78584]http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=78584[/url]

Wayland

2003-07-28 00:17 | User Profile

Naw, NA is not a false flag. I can "vouche for" [more or less] a person directly related to name #1 above. I can't comment further.

As far as Bill White goes, who knows?

Get off the fence Franco, it's important.

Wayland

2003-07-28 00:28 | User Profile

Did you read the Tsun's article at all Hugh? His theory was quite convincing to me. A home office centralized clique, just selling books, doesn't worry anybody. When someone like Doles starts to make some serious headway though he's perceived as a threat, not only to the authorities, but to the obstructionists - people who really like things the way they are, and see activity outside their ranks as a threat to their own power, potential provocation to the authorities, and generally just something that wll cause them extra work - and they are relieved to see him out of the way.

Maguire's article doesn't connect all the dots, but here it makes a lot of sense. "Revolutionary" organizations, even if not overtly compromised (never something to completely rule out with anybody* you don't know like your own brother) often develop tacit understandings with the authorities, and underneath blustery rhetoric, become very conservative in their activities and thinking.

Okie, from the beginning Dr. Pierce set up some strict rules for the National Alliance: No crackpots or extremists and everything must be above board and 100% legal. Do you think this might go some way to explaining why the NA has survived without being taken down by the authorities?

For those interested in more information about the National Alliance and its founding I recommend the book [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759609330/ref=pd_sim_books_3/102-8106365-9844103?v=glance]Fame Of A Dead Man's Deeds[/url] by Robert S Griffin. And this is an excellent read for anybody interested in white nationalism in general.

And btw, I am not an NA member and have no contacts or affiliation with the organization. I just hate to see what to me are such obvious slurs against decent, honest, committed people go unchallenged.

il ragno

2003-07-28 02:21 | User Profile

Excrement-dragger-inner or not, I give you Linder, in today's VNN Reader Mail.

[color=red]The National Alliance has been around 30 years and has fewer than 2,000 members. [u]Something is not being done right[/u]. Something needs to be corrected. If we keep doing things the same old way, we're going to get the same old results. The fact is, the organization as a whole is in disarray. As a member who has put in thousands of dollars and hours promoting NA, I don't like that. I believe and sincerely hope the board is going to do something about this soon. Although KAS is a smart guy who does good editorial work, and is in that limited regard an asset to the cause, he simply does not believe criticism of himself or anything he does is valid. Since he considers himself essentially faultless in motive and action, he naturally concludes anything critical -- or merely different in approach -- is either stupidity, malice or COINTELPRO -- and must be censored, the editorial equivalent of shunning. This attitude, this paranoid, myopic insecurity, this fear of open discussion, is what has prevented the National Alliance from taking off in membership and media. I say bluntly to whomever is listening that Kevin Strom is not the man to take the NA in the direction it needs to go. I am. I and the team I've assembled at VNN can get the job done. Anybody on the Board of Directors who wants to get in touch and hear my plan for rollout, you've got my email. I'm ready, I know what to do, I want the job. "Media iz politics," and I know how to build media. VNN is the natural front end to an organization like the National Alliance, and I hope the Board of Directors recognizes that. There is no reason the NA, the White-defenders, can't have 25,000 members like PETA, the earwig-defenders -- en route to 200,000 and beyond. There is no reason itz sales shouldn't be in the millions. If what the NA has done for thirty years is good enough, then listen to Strom. If not, then listen to me.[/color]

Something tells me these guys see much bigger plums dancing in their heads than an aggregate 10% of the skinhead market, and I don't see that as a bad thing. After all, if you want martyrs, go to church. What bothers me about all this is Bill "Iago" White being the fulcrum enabling this Faustian bargain, if I may switch horses here, from Shakespeare to Goethe, in midstream. It's not that I fear Linder the Visigoth will wipe his barbaric bum with the proud tradition and high-minded intentions of the NA; the NA have neither. What they had was Pierce, who was a folksy (yet piercingly effective & accurate) canary in a very dark coalmine for many years till the rest of us caught up to what he'd been saying all along. Sans Pierce, they're a busted valise, end of story. Frankly, I fear the opposite: that Linder will become subsumed with organizational nonsense running the NA - when the momentum he'd built through VNN and related activities like Shop White could have blossomed into something much bigger than the NA on its own steam. And let's face it, nobody knows where the f*ck Bill White is coming from. Having that guy grandfathered into the WN hierarchy makes everybody nervous. He radiates Frank Nitti/Roy Cohn vibes and always has.

I also note despite all the sturm und drang of the last ten days - what with all of Bill White's "authorized" news bulletins - there has been no regime change at the NA. If Strom, Gliebe, Pringle, etc have been actually sacked, I haven't heard diddly about it. I do keep reading, unendingly, that it's all a done deal gonna happen any minute now. This is meatgrinder agitprop at its worst and most transparent. Incessantly reporting news that hasn't happened yet - because you want very much for it to happen! - isn't "news" and it isn't "reporting".

Bardamu

2003-07-28 02:28 | User Profile

I also note despite all the sturm und drang of the last ten days - what with all of Bill White's "authorized" news bulletins - there has been no regime change at the NA.

Hell, Strom is probably feeding White that information to make him look like the ass that he is.

Hugh Lincoln

2003-07-28 02:51 | User Profile

I'm not trying to destroy hope or tear down confidence. I just think looking at things with a clear eye is important. I never said I didn't wish NA wouldn't get bigger, faster and better. But for now, let's be realistic: Nobody anywhere answers a phone and says, "National Alliance, can I help you?" Whatever you think of how success is achieved, I can't shake loose the thought that you can't totally abandon The Rules of Society and get anywhere permanent. I know, I know: Jews set those rules. So what? We need to figure out ways to beat them at their own game, and I remain convinced it's possible. Every jail-builder leaves an escape hatch.

If NA has value, it's in getting men together and getting a message out. That is what's possible in 2003: Aggressively building a multi-platform media organization dedicated to uplifting Whites, exposing Jewish lies and cultivating the racial spirit we so badly need restored. Lighting brushfires in men's minds, as it was once put to me. Look, if we aimed a flamethrower at wet logs, it would just smoke. We need to dry out the tinder, and media messages do that. We need more Web traffic, more print stuff, more Internet radio stuff, more pro-White writing reaching the people, more streaming video, more cartoons, more chatrooms, more books and yes, even more fliers, however dismissable those may be.

THAT is what cannot be stopped: Getting the word out. It doesn't matter how many ADL/SPLC/feeb operatives are reading these words right now, and that's the beauty of it. "Mr. Director, it appears the White Nationalists are going to try taking over by speaking to the people. That's what we need to focus on stopping." Which they can try: by locking up the Bellingham Three, by scaring the crap out of Marc Moran in "The Trentonian," etc. But THOSE actions, I submit, are ZOG's bluffs. Real though the consequences may be, IT IS more in the head than anywhere else.

What I see in Alex Linder is a man who calls those bluffs, and that's why I think he's a winning horse, whoever he may or may not have inadvisedly associated himself with and whatever criticisms (often legitimate) of his approach have been made. He sees possibilities, and more importantly, WANTS TO SEE THEM HAPPEN. He's got the brains and the heart and I get the sense he's been waiting half his life for this. So I say, great. Go for it.

Bardamu

2003-07-28 03:10 | User Profile

il ragno> **The National Alliance has been around 30 years and has fewer than 2,000 members. Something is not being done right. **

Hmmm, people don't join up because most likely they see it as recklessly endangering their jobs and their families. I don't see it as necessary that the NA grow its membership base. What it needs to grow is its readership base. Get the word out there. You won't catch me being a card carrying anything.

The idea that Linder is going to attract more people than Strom is doubtful. Linder is an extremist. I like him like that, but I don't see how one can predict that the Linder style is going to attract fence sitters more effectively than Strom's gentlemanly style. We don't even know what Linder looks like. Strom has this boyish, non-threatening, media friendly face. He is perfect for the job. Really, if anybody I would elect Edgar Steele, at least the guy has manners. And finally, Strom helped create American Dissident Voices. He has proprietary rights.

Wayland

2003-07-28 04:01 | User Profile

You need to go back and read this again il ragno because it reveals plenty about Alex Linder's character. Let's look at the first part of Linder's polemic:

"I've sat back and watched over the past week as Kevin's put out a steady stream of disinformation aimed at discrediting VNN and ShopWhite in the eyes of National Alliance members and the White community at large. He is doing whatever he can to persuade NA members to believe the lie that Bill White controls the editorial at VNN, and to persuade folks that anything Bill White has any contact with should be "shunned," one of his favorite words."

Note this statement: He is doing whatever he can to persuade NA members to believe the lie that Bill White controls the editorial at VNN. In fact Strom, to my knowledge, has never claimed that Bill White was controlling the [u]editorial[/u] at VNN. What he has done is simply repeat what Bill White himself has said, namely that he, Bill White, owns and controls the VNN web site and VNNforums. By inserting the word editorial Linder attempts to discredit Strom for a claim he's never made. Dishonest by Linder. And remember, Strom has only been responding, and in an extremely restrained manner, to a steady torrent of attacks from Bill White and VNN. But Linder tries to make it look like Strom is the one responsible for the conflict:

*"Kevin Strom is real big on shunning anything or anybody who doesn't do things his way. The kind of dictatorial control over the National Alliance media he seeks would hobble the National Alliance."

"After talking to Kevin and Elisha after the conference in St. Louis, and observing his behavior on the Internet, my impression is that he feels threatened by both VNN's growing stature and internal developments within NA, and is intent on maintaining absolute control over anything he possibly can using any means at his disposal."

"...he simply does not believe criticism of himself or anything he does is valid. Since he considers himself essentially faultless in motive and action, he naturally concludes anything critical -- or merely different in approach -- is either stupidity, malice or COINTELPRO -- and must be censored, the editorial equivalent of shunning. This attitude, this paranoid, myopic insecurity, this fear of open discussion, is what has prevented the National Alliance from taking off in membership and media."*

This is simple character assassination. A collection of smears and innuendoes with nothing to back them up.

Ragnar made an excellent statement earlier in this thread: "People don't like their illusions broken". Although I think he meant it in reference to the NA, in fact it applies perfectly to Linder and VNN. People have created an attachment to VNN because they see good things there and they see the potential for something worthwhile to come out of it, but that attachment blinds them to the bad effects that will emerge if Linder and White continue to implement their plan to destroy what they see as their competition. Everybody needs to keep their eyes wide open.

There are a couple of good threads on StormFront discussing Linder's coming out: [url=http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=79318]Linder has spoken[/url] (General Rants) [url=http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=79317]Linder has spoken[/url] (Lounge)

Wayland

2003-07-28 04:04 | User Profile

I'm not trying to destroy hope or tear down confidence.  I just think looking at things with a clear eye is important.  I never said I didn't wish NA wouldn't get bigger, faster and better.  But for now, let's be realistic:  Nobody anywhere answers a phone and says, "National Alliance, can I help you?"  Whatever you think of how success is achieved, I can't shake loose the thought that you can't totally abandon The Rules of Society and get anywhere permanent.  I know, I know:  Jews set those rules.  So what?  We need to figure out ways to beat them at their own game, and I remain convinced it's possible.  Every jail-builder leaves an escape hatch. 

If NA has value, it's in getting men together and getting a message out.  That is what's possible in 2003:  Aggressively building a multi-platform media organization dedicated to uplifting Whites, exposing Jewish lies and cultivating the racial spirit we so badly need restored.  Lighting brushfires in men's minds, as it was once put to me.  Look, if we aimed a flamethrower at wet logs, it would just smoke.  We need to dry out the tinder, and media messages do that.  We need more Web traffic, more print stuff, more Internet radio stuff, more pro-White writing reaching the people, more streaming video, more cartoons, more chatrooms, more books and yes, even more fliers, however dismissable those may be.

THAT is what cannot be stopped:  Getting the word out.  It doesn't matter how many ADL/SPLC/feeb operatives are reading these words right now, and that's the beauty of it.  "Mr. Director, it appears the White Nationalists are going to try taking over by speaking to the people.  That's what we need to focus on stopping."  Which they can try:  by locking up the Bellingham Three, by scaring the crap out of Marc Moran in "The Trentonian," etc.  But THOSE actions, I submit, are ZOG's bluffs.  Real though the consequences may be, IT IS more in the head than anywhere else.

Many good points here Hugh. And the message is getting out like never before - we shouldn't lose sight of that.

What I see in Alex Linder is a man who calls those bluffs, and that's why I think he's a winning horse, whoever he may or may not have inadvisedly associated himself with and whatever criticisms (often legitimate) of his approach have been made.  He sees possibilities, and more importantly, WANTS TO SEE THEM HAPPEN.  He's got the brains and the heart and I get the sense he's been waiting half his life for this.  So I say, great.  Go for it.

Alex Linder has talent and he has something to say, no doubt about it. But he's lacking in one essential characteristic that makes it impossible for me to trust or respect him: He has no honor.

Texas Dissident

2003-07-28 08:28 | User Profile

Alex Linder has talent and he has something to say, no doubt about it. But he's lacking in one essential characteristic that makes it impossible for me to trust or respect him: He has no honor.

With the caveat that I am not, nor ever have been, a member of the NA and even almost completely unknowledgeable of their history, my limited exposure to the various parties involved from the administration of this board has shown me that there is definitely a marked difference in the demeanor, manners and style of presentation of Mr. Strom, Mr. Linder and Mr. White. For those in the know, this may well be common knowledge, but many here like myself, have no real knowledge of what all this is about. But I am learning and following it all with growing interest. I have formed some opinions already, but as a relative outsider to this controversy I can't see any need for me to state them publicly at this juncture.

Alex Linder

2003-07-28 08:44 | User Profile

Challenging someone's honor under a fake name. Aint the Internet grand?

But forget that, not why I'm writing.

I'd like Maguire to tell us whether or not he was aware that NA was essentially FORCED to establish itself as a for-profit corporation in the wake of a court decision preventing it from obtaining 501c status. That kinda changes the whole picture radically.

If you were aware of that, Maguire, that is exceptionally disingenuous, almost to the point of lying, to withhold it.

il ragno

2003-07-28 12:38 | User Profile

I don't care about conspiracy theories because basically I don't care about alphabet-soup organizations, whether FR or the NA. I started visiting VNN because of your writing, which has proven to be a more effective weapon than all the acronyms & pseudonyms out there in the WN world. You had a outsider/gadfly candor in every spintro and reader-mail reply you wrote, and while that candor certainly pissed off a few people, it drew many times that number into bookmarking VNN for daily visits just to see what you might say or do next.

But the past few weeks have seen VNN bogged down in intramural politics - the choosing up sides, and rumor-mongering, and things are happening but I'm not at liberty to divulge anything yet type of petty intrigues that are part and parcel of jockeying for position as the homestretch approaches. If, after the dust clears, you get what you want - at the cost of VNN's iconoclastic, beholden-to-none editorial tone - I wonder if that will be a net plus. Need I remind you, Alex, that nobody was reading you because they didn't like Kevin Strom or "Maguire" or whomever but because they dug you. There are a million 'organizations' out there, some capable and some inept, but only one authentic Alex Linder. There being only so many hours in the day, is it worth muting (or losing) that voice so that people get their National Vanguards on time? F*ck no!

If this NA thing pans out for you, I wish you well with it - but if it all goes kablooey I don't necessarily see that as a setback. You already have the readership, and the momentum, with VNN that all the alphabet-soup guilds combined wish they had. They need you, not the other way around.

Bardamu

2003-07-28 12:57 | User Profile

il ragno

What you have is a bad case of literary infatuation. God knows, I hope I am not talking to another 20 year old.

Ruffin

2003-07-28 14:52 | User Profile

Linder, on VNN RM page:

VNN is multilevel. Strom is unilevel, aimed at the upper middle class, the editorial reader. VNN has always printed Strom's ADVs, because they are good. He hits his target market hard and persuasively, and his words are an asset. But Strom-the-editor would never tolerate any kind of Fitz cartoon or RaZoR cartoon, or silly movie review because he thinks they're substandard. He is driven entirely by his private aesthetic, not by what is objectively needed to gin up the people to produce a revolution. As for "coups," the NA is run by a board that can hire and fire who it wants. Neither Kevin nor I are on that board. Putting myself forward as a candidate to run NA media, by which I do not necessarily mean ADVs, is a fair and honorable thing to do. I would not be suggesting change if the NA were healthy and headed in the right direction. I would in that case be looking at what the NA was doing better than VNN was so that I could copy it. That kind of mental flexibility and openness to new tactics tracks very highly with success in the kind of editorial and political battles we're engaged in. I stick firm on getting rid of jews and the negroes they use to wreck us; those are the principles, the essential principles, from which no deviation is allowed. All else is immaterial. Whites getting back on top of jews is where we can afford to brook no disagreement without slitting our own throat. But I know for a fact that NA, the premier organization devoted to this goal, is objectively not doing well, and so I believe it is reasonable that I suggest a new direction, given that VNN is healthy and headed in the right direction. If I see a group of which I'm a member faltering, and I know a way to save it, I'm definitely going to speak up. Dr. Pierce always said men these days are too passive. Not me. I'm precisely the medicine NA needs. I'm not talking, I've done it, and I'm going to do a lot more of it, regardless of how things turns out. What NA needs is a first-class front end that can stir up excitement and feeling, get readers coming back daily and hourly, and get them to funnel that excitement into membership, and have something for that membership to do beyond throwing fliers. Now, all of that doesn't happen overnight, but three years later VNN has built a community that appeals to people, and it is a natural front end to NA or another organization. NA has assets that could be used to expand White media, which in turn will ratchet up our efforts to recruit. With time and continued success, we can lay the basis for a new political vehicle, however that might legally have to be arranged. I really don't care about the personalities involved in this whole debate, but here's why I think WN's are smarter to bet on my model than the fliers-and-black-box model. Kevin has a long track record. He is a proven commodity. He is going to keep on doing what he has always done -- producing good editorial, at a certain level. He will also keep on shunning anything that doesn't meet his particulars, no matter its success, and he will keep on pulling strings and manipulating behind the scenes to undercut any other approach, no matter how successful that approach has proven itself, in order to secure his income and position. If a different approach succeeds in spite of him -- a la the Chester Doles campaign -- he will complain that the big money the other guy, the other approach, was able to attract nevertheless should have been funneled through him! The presumptuousness is staggering, but thatz our Kevin. Father doesn't know best, Kevin does. Kevin Strom, the record is clear, feels threatened by approaches and people he doesn't understand and can't control. I don't. And neither does Bill White. I can see Kevin Strom and his talent for exactly what they're worth. He has no idea what I'm worth or what I can do, and so he blocks the way, any way he can. But not publicly, just behind the scenes, trashing my name and anybody I choose to work with. Publicly he's all about nobility and honor. Now the fact is, as has been written, that I did not hire Bill White. It does not follow, however, that I want to fire Bill White. In rough terms, here's what happened. I have produced VNN for three years, as of this coming August 9. I produce it out of circumstances that are personally difficult in terms of space and money. Those are objective facts. Subjectively, doing VNN has been a complete and abiding joy, thanks to the many great people I've met and gotten to know, and the progress we all together have made. Thatz why I'm always so happy, and never bore you with talk of sacrifice, like some people! And great things are ahead of us... After two years of hard work and building up a tight core of trusted writers and huge and growing mob of readers, I came across someone who, coming to VNN as a Bush conservative, was outraged, transfixed, and then transformed by our truths. So much so that he wanted to invest to help VNN get to the very top. Yes, a convert of our own making wanted to invest the money to build the infrastructure to be able to handle and support VNN even if it went to the very top and edged out Google or Yahoo on the Alexa rankings. Now, at the point this help was offered, I'd had to switch servers five or six times in the two years we'd been online. I'd been canceled off hitbox, paypal, Cafe Press, and other services I had every right to use. My partner had bowed out, and I'd had to learn html on the fly. Suffice it to say, there were challenges. It seemed to me that an investor who could handle some of the burden -- and wanted nothing in return, no editorial control or money, who simply wanted to help -- was a wise choice to make. So I made it. And if you want to hold me guilty of anything, THAT is what I'm guilty of: allowing a rich investor to help build the infrastructure we objectively needed to take VNN to the very highest level. Remember that National Alliance is the only body in White Nationalism with substantial assets, and it had never offered me a dime. I'm not saying it should have, just pointing out an objective fact. So, I had to raise resources on my own, given substantial and rising costs, and the backer was the first supporter with substantial means I had come across. I made that choice then to accept his help, and I would make that choice again today. Good and bad things have happened to VNN subsequently, but I still believe it was the correct thing to do. Keep in mind that all this time I and my writers had and have promoted National Alliance as the group of groups. We have, as you can tell if you frequent the letters page, gotten a good number of people to sign up with NA. NA, for its part, put up our link for awhile until for some reason it came down. At this point none of that matters, but it serves at least to show that the flow of help and traffic has been pretty much one way. NA is within itz rights to do whatever it thinks appropriate, and I personally take things easy until something new has proven itself, but at some point along the way we passed that point, and I don't think NA leadership ever really acknowledged it, certainly not in terms of material support. Individual members certainly proved what they thought of us by their donations to the Doles campaign, which I am truly humbled by, whenever I sit back and think about it. They reposed great trust in us, and I take that seriously. Of course, there is a huge overlap between NA members and VNN readers, so they are impossible to separate, for the most part. As Strom's letter to Collins shows, VNN lives in certain NA employees' minds in some sort of half-state; grudgingly accepted for the members and money it stirs up, but never to be seated at the adult table or introduced to company. My question is: who died and left Kevin Strom in charge? Nobody. Strom is simply too myopic to see what VNN and itz success mean. I hope others are not. In my professional opinion, what the NA needs going forward is to get rid of the tiresome preaching of nobility and sacrifice, all too often combined with low, scheming actions, and replace it with a culture of cheerful doggedness, patience and resilience, and flexibility in tactics. Loyalty is a two-edged sword. Those who say you are being disloyal to them if you find a better way to do something are abusing loyalty in its name. The fact is that the NA needs to get its house in order and take advantage of its assets by producing profitable and professional media. VNN has a whole body of content just waiting to be turned into profitable books, magazines, etc., but which can only be done very slowly in-house while we are cramped for money and time. NA has some of the money and press assets needed to make these products happen. The rational thing to do is to try to work out a marriage between our editorial and NA's money. With me in control of NA media, we can get out many more profitable products, an even better daily VNN site, and expand membership at the same time, which would lead to a ratchet effect in every sector. This would help everybody in the whole movement. What I'm saying is just common sense if you look at the matter objectively. It really has little to nothing to do with Kevin Strom at all. I went after him because he went after someone I work with very closely and have come to trust; someone who has helped VNN prosper -- and I don't let my friends down when they're under attack. Not to mention that, as his letter to Collins reveals, Strom is going after me behind the scenes while pretending in public he's some kind of high-minded White knight. Well, letz fight it out in the open, let readers and members and the world decide; let them draw their conclusion based on what they see and hear. I have nothing to fear and everything to gain by that. I disagree, Irvin, that public disagreements between members of the same team don't have their place. Letz hash it out. The problem is not that disputes are aired, the problem is that they aren't aired. Where should the NA go from here? Should it follow the model that says we should smooth over problems, pretend they don't exist, and censor any words or ideas that don't have certain parties' seal of approval? Or should we take a free-discussion road, an open-management route, and let people know exactly what is going on and why we're doing it? Should the NA do regular PR and develop an internet-based VNN-style front end, or should it do weekly radio, irregular bulletins and occasional magazines? Should management and leadership be open or black-box? I maintain that openness is the way to go. The black-box option leads to more of what we've already had, and that is not good enough. We -- all of us NA members and VNN readers -- have to do better. And we can, and fairly easily. ... Now, getting back to the story... I accepted backing. In very short order, and without consulting me, our backer signed up Bill White to do the database. I was a bit surprised at this precipitate decision, since I had assumed we would discuss it first. I believe our backer had heard about Bill White through VNN, back when Bill was running his campaign. Our backer had made a contribution and gotten to know Bill, and so he felt comfortable making this decision. Now, the bottom line here is that while I was shocked, the fact that our backer, who I trusted, felt White was right, carried some weight. The fact that I didn't know anybody who could do technical database adminstration clinched it. As an aside, I never then had any word from NA HQ about any kind of technical help whatsoever. It takes all my waking hours to keep VNN smooth and running forward editorially, and I have little time to mess with technical stuff. So having Bill White devise a new and improved technical platform seemed like a pretty good deal, on the whole. A few months later, the new site was ready, and we were up and running. It was not easy. But eventually we got the main kinks worked out. There are still some things that are not perfect, but that's life: you make your decisions and go forward, try to correct what you can, try to do the best you can. That is what I and Bill White have done. I think the results have been and will continue to be impressive. Life has gone on, and our numbers continued to rise. We kept the site up in spite of all opposition, and with the aid of increasing amounts of help and money, and by now are at the 10,000 level on alexa, and poised to go higher. WE ARE REACHING HUGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE. KAS is too much of a priggy little sht, put off by our proclivity for tits and profanity, to recognize that objectively that is the "nut" of VNN. He's too myopic to see how that gross fact could and ought to be used to help National Alliance, which would certainly include helping him personally. And thatz where we stand today. But there's more to the story. Our backer wanted to put VNN on a self-sustaining basis. He came up with the idea of "ShopWhite," a sort of White auction site that anybody could use, but that Whites only would benefit from. Ebay, after all, is one of the most profitable sites on the Internet, so perhaps a "ShopWhite" would be able to find a market and -- the main point -- give White people a means of keeping their money within the White community, thereby strengthening all of us. ShopWhite was envisioned as a way not only to pay VNN's and the new VNN Forum's costs, but salaries to the VNN staff, and with plenty of money left over to invest in expanded media. Bill White would build the system, along with keeping VNN and associated sites up and running - in addition to running Overthrow, itself a highly popular site, and one of very few sources for information about the National Alliance, something of great interest to members. If not for Overthrow, nobody right now would know that NA is in rough straits. Those of you who want to jump on Bill White ought to realize that Bill White's printing the truth about the problems NA has is not an "attack," as Kevin calls any criticism whatsoever, it is helpful truth. If you didn't have Overthrow and VNN to bring problems to the surface, you wouldn't have any idea things were operating at NA any differently than normal, would you? Perhaps some of you are dubious right now that what I say is true. Well, time will reveal what Kevin Strom would hide. Anyway, suffice it to say that tens of thousands of dollars have been invested in VNN's and ShopWhite's infrastructure. And I want to say that it hurts me to see people taking shots at it. It really does. I follow an in-group / out-group model derived from what Kevin MacDonald has written about the Nazis and their development of a mirror strategy to the jews. I try not to criticize people on our side unless absolutely necessary, and to do it in even terms where I possibly can. My vicious hostility is reserved for the out-groups: most particularly the jews who are the taproot of evil in the White West. That said, I'm going to take the wraps off right here because I've held my tongue, and silence is no longer appropriate. To see a beggar like Halevangelist Turner take a chickenshit swipe at what I've put together, I can only emit a sick laugh. VNN was hosted by Turner for roughly two months. We were down about half the time. My backer paid Hal a year in advance, and threw a big donation on top of that. I'm sure he didn't see a penny of that back when we were forced to move because Hal couldn't keep us up. Now Hal's licking his lips over this contretemps, and gleefully hoping ShopWhite will fail? Hey, Hal: fck you.... Now, enough about that, it doesn't matter. We can talk and blabber and write cute words for ten thousand years, but the fact remains that actions matter more than words. The potential of ShopWhite is great. If you don't trust me or Bill White to run it responsibly, smoothly, openly, and profitably, then by all means DON'T USE IT. If you do trust me, then do use it. When I say, as I do in every speech, that I started VNN to create a political revolution, not just some media, I mean it. Well, a revolution costs money. There are not huge numbers of wealthy investors throwing money at us. NA has money but to date hasn't invested a penny. No worries, mate. We do it our ownself, the VNN way, and hope that others catch on and come along. ShopWhite is a way to make that money -- and a way that costs you nothing, but actually provides a service for users -- and one that you yourself can use to make YOURSELF money. Good for you, good for me, good for US. It is intended to strengthen ALL OF US. Those of you who come to me and tell me I must stop using Bill White, and surely there are other people, let me say this to you. 99/100 of you have no money or technical expertise. You have, to tell you the blunt truth, no idea what you're talking about. You don't know anybody who could do what Bill White is doing, let alone build a ShopWhite out of nothing. You have nothing on the line except words, and you want to tell me how to run my business. Grow up. This isn't a joke. For too long White Nationalism has been a puerile, costume-goofy, and suffused with constricted-bowel mentality. Those days are over. We're going overtly, unashamedly public in as big a way as humanly possible. If you wanted to stay cramped and small, hey, I'm more than certain you can find tiny clowns to mislead you. If you're a mental adult and you want to go big, take my hand, because thatz where I'm headed. ... Now, the conclusion of the story. Our backer chose to get involved in politics just about the time ShopWhite was preparing to go live. The pressure was too much for him, he resigned his position and chose to renounce all ties to VNN and National Alliance. Very disappointing, as he was a man of means and honor, and had an extremely strong point to defend, and certainly could have carried the day against the feculent, hypocritical, crybaby Jews. Some have claimed that Bill White set up Marc Moran in order to steal VNN and ShopWhite. That is a lie. White actually advised Moran not to accept appointment to the town council but, if he wished, to run when the position came up in November. At that point his baby would have been born, and he would have been squared away. Funny, isn't it? People who won't use their real names will say almost anything about anybody. Bill White did the best he could to draw pressure from Moran, to help him to stay firm, but it was to no avail. I think Bill was as surprised as I was that Moran withdrew and said what he did, given that his beliefs have not changed, and he had a position that was all but completely impregnable. But thatz human nature; there's no predicting how people will act under pressure. Our backer withdrawn, VNN nevertheless surges forward. Nothing will stop us because our motto is REFUSE TO BE BLOCKED AND YOU'LL GET THE JOB DONE. Our other motto is, RAISE BOTH MIDDLE FINGERS AND KEEP ON GUNNIN'. Now, Bill White has printed some sh*t and some puerilities that I never would have, and don't think were advisable, but he shares my kick-ass attitude, and frankly I think that attitude is what is most necessary to eventual success. Bill White may not call himself a White nationalist, but he is willing to stand up in public alone with a banner denouncing jews, and he is willing to harass the press and politicians harrassing Moran, and he has actual political experience pressing the flesh in public -- so he qualifies for physical guts. His actions show that he is, in fact, on our side. He names the jew, and he publicly calls himself White, and acknowledges that Whites have interests that deserve protection. If he prints stuff about Strom that leaves him crying, well, maybe Strom doesn't have the thickness of skin to be a revolutionary. Anyway, if you don't like whatz printed on Overthrow, talk to Bill, not me. Same goes for any of you complaining about what Bill has said or done to you. Deal with it yourself, don't come crying to me. I don't control what goes on there, just as he doesn't control what goes on here. That should be completely comprehensible to any grown adult, but the Strommies can't grasp it because their entire M.O. is not based on freethinking, freestanding adults, but on whispers and titters and shunning. Pitiful, itz. So there we are. VNN had a backer, he backed out. We need a certain amount of juice to keep the engines running. That's why we've got ShopWhite ready to blast off, and thatz why I'm suggesting to NA a possible coordination of interests. What you the reader need to know is that I alone am responsible for VNN, and I'm going to keep driving forward as quickly and professionally as possible, and, as always, we're on the lookout for talented readers and writers. Join us.

[color=red]Ed. Note: That Il Ragno is a very smart fellow and I do pay attention to what he says. The big picture most certainly will not be lost, and the big picture is to keep VNN improving and reaching more people. I am committed to those goals no matter what happens with regard to NA or any individual. Very careful consideration of all relevant points will be given before any agreement with any party is reached. There simply isn't time to do anything less.[/color]

edward gibbon

2003-07-28 18:17 | User Profile

[color=blue]Mr. Tsun[/color] (Posted: Jul 27 2003, 05:30)

** The National Alliance, Incorporated: A ZOG False Flag Combat Cell by “Maguire” ** The Gods have smiled and blessed us with the presence of Mr. Tsun. Your presence has been awaited by me for some time.

Perhaps with Maguire, Linder, il ragno, yourself and me we can really stir people up. I have been stewing about a public approach for our needs for some time, but have yet to satisfy my desires. If Warren Buffett gets struck with lighning and sees the light, then I will have a couple of billions of dollars to direct much of our needed effort. Most certainly, I would need your assistance.

Gaius Marius

2003-07-28 22:35 | User Profile

Alex Linder,

You know I've supported VNN since its inception and have supported the NA in the past. But "Maguire" has raised important issues that most of us, including myself, have not been made aware of. "Maguire" has not been disingenuuous. - Euroman, aka GoVnn

In defense of "Maguire":

Disingenuity has been the hallmark of natvan.com and natall.com. Look at the ‘recruiting’ pages. No where do they state that the National Alliance is a privately owned corporation chartered by the Commonwealth of Virginia and always has been. The authors of those pages were careful to remove "Inc." from "National Alliance."

Sure, Dr. Pierce tried and failed to secure 501© status for the National Alliance back in the seventies. So what? Maguire’s point is that the NA ‘program’ has always been the personal program of one man – the original owner of the National Alliance, Inc.

The contrast between a program issued by a privately owned corporation (NA) and the NSDAP meeting that produced the 25 Point platform, the Constitutional Convention of 1787 and subsequent ratification effort, and the Continental Congress that produced the Declaration of Independence…further comment on why the National Alliance has not made more headway in 30 years is unnecessary.

The people who control National Alliance, Inc. are its legal owners, officers and directors. The legal owners are constrained by state and federal law regarding the political activity of private corporations. They are further constrained by legal fiduciary requirements to maximize the corporation’s return on investment. Legally, the NA Board’s first responsibilities are to these two groups. After them in pecking order are the wages of the employees, contractors and trade debt. Thus the National Alliance, Inc. ‘membership’ has no legal standing or existence. The ‘members’ are former customers who have already received goods and services in exchange for payment. Many of them will be repeat customers in the future. This is the only relationship the ‘membership’ can ever have to National Alliance, Inc.

The current legal owners (i.e., investors) of National Alliance, Inc. remain unknown. Unknown, too, are its creditors. Who are they? The fact is, we don’t know. We should know. The NA ‘membership’ should also know that they are supporting a private corporation, and that corporation is constrained, BY LAW, in what it CAN or CANNOT accomplish in the political arena.

The political 'policy' of the National Alliance, Inc., was set by the Virginia House of Burgesses and the US Congress. The most National Alliance, Inc. can do outside of selling books and creating media is to organize a N.A. Political Action Committee (PAC) - that is, collect money from employees and stockholders and then contribute that money to White nationalist candidates - just like other private corporations are allowed to do.

It is time for some crystal clear speaking by the National Alliance, Inc. as to what it really is, what it does and what it CANNOT EVER DO because of Virginia state and federal law.

jack_boot

2003-07-29 00:04 | User Profile

Alex beat me to it. The NA had to legally constitute itself somehow, there isn't much choice. We deal with money, of course, and we have to pay taxes, of course, and there has to be some kind of legally recognized structuring. Nothing sinister or devious about it.

And certainly the National Alliance isn't going to refer to itself as "Inc.", don't be an ass.

Occam's Razor:

Chester Doles was arrested because Chertoff succeeded in getting a rat in next to him. Same as Hale. Doles making critical noises about the NA at the time was merely coincidence.

When it comes to political arrests, where there is no rat there is no bust. Pierce avoided arrest because he avoided rats. As far as "hiding international fugitive" Hendrik Moebus at National HQ, Hendrik was not actually a fugitive until the federal paperwork went through, at which point the feds promptly showed up on the mountain, beat the snot bubbles out of him, broke his arm, and dragged him off in chains, SOP. And that's that. Took time, that's all. They always knew where Hendrik was, nobody was hiding anything.

I could go on, but you get the point. It's easy to characterize opposition leaders as cynical moneygrubbers or spies or whatever you want. All you need is a glib tongue.

"I don't see it as necessary that the NA grow its membership base. What it needs to grow is its readership base. Get the word out there. You won't catch me being a card carrying anything."

Now you'll notice Don Black, probably the top WN leadership figure not doing time, does not belong to any organization either. Don doesn't get talked about a lot because he doesn't do a lot of talking. He's a lot sharper than he generally gets credit for; when he does talk, it pays to listen. Really listen. He is a man with the rare talent of few words. Do a search for his posts on Stormfront, it'll pay off.

Lastly, a poster here insulted Alex Linder as a man of no honor. That is low. We are talking about a man who just handed Theresa Doles a check for close to eighty grand, a man who does what he does in the broad light of day and at the top of his lungs, a man with guts enough for any ten.

Say what you must about him otherwise (I do), but spare your base insults.

Alex Linder has honor, all right.

Gaius Marius

2003-07-29 00:09 | User Profile

If you have to destroy a few good people while executing your plan to take over the world, I'm sure there's an ethical system somewhere that can fit that in.

Alex can not take control of National Alliance, Inc. from its owner - whomever he is (see post above). Alex will not be made Chairman. Perhaps Alex will become the NA equivalent of "Vice President of Media Operations"?

Bardamu

2003-07-29 00:14 | User Profile

The problem with patriotism in America is not the style of Kevin Strom's leadership at the National Alliance. Does anyone really think that there is a glorious revolution waiting to happen if we just remove Kevin Alfred Strom and replace him with Alex Linder (and Bill the shill White)? The problem is not with the leadership of the patriotic movement. The problem is with the masses. It is interesting that Linder has to proceed with his leadership over the bones of another leader. And where does Bill White enter into all of this? That fellow is about as trustworthy as a weasel.

Gaius Marius

2003-07-29 00:22 | User Profile

And certainly the National Alliance isn't going to refer to itself as "Inc.", don't be an ass.

No, of course the National Alliance is not going to do what every other corporation does and admit that it's a corporation - in this case, a limited liability corporation. How very idiotic of me to think so, eh? :sleep:

No, I guess the National Alliance, Inc. wants its 'members' thinking it's something other than a profit-seeking organization, politically and financially constrained by Virginia state and federal laws. Like, maybe, well, a real underground revolutionary organization! Like in The Turner Diaries, pehaps?

Bullsh*t.

You know, I support Linder but I think openness on the part of the NA could help it and him - that is, unless there is something to hide.

Gaius Marius

2003-07-29 00:26 | User Profile

This wide ranging public discussion of movement structures is way long overdue.

ACCOUNTABILITY.

There is no reason under the sun for NA, Inc. not to provide public copies of its tax returns for the 'members'. Who are these being kept secret from? ZOG? ROFLMAO!!!! They were filed with the IRS! After what we saw in the Clinton era r.e. IRS does anyone in his senses think these aren't slipped to the ADL?

Ditto for the rest of the Incs, LLCs and sole proprietorships. Unless they publicly state they are for-profit merchants. Bill White has pretty well done this.

In my opinion balance sheets and statements of income ought to be published. This transparency exists with Jim Giles. In 'The Movement' he is alone in this respect - go to www.fec.gov and check it out.

PERFORMANCE MEASUREMENT

What was accomplished for the resource inputs? Here again Jim Giles is visible in the election returns. In the case of Internet media independent website trackers are available and can be made publicly visible. Birdman does this, or used to. Why not others? There are far too many ways Alexa stats can be gamed. Turner did this early on. Alexa is not too useful outside the Top 500 or so.

Anyone soliciting money who is not willing to subject themselves to the above ought to be - to borrow one of Mr. Strom's terms - shunned. The financial accountability and performance aspects helped persuade me independent candidacies ought to become a prime vehicle for us.

I'm sure the wide ranging adoption of these kinds of transparent measurements will break loose a lot of money now sitting on the sidelines.

Wayland

2003-07-29 00:43 | User Profile

Originally posted by jack_boot@Jul 28 2003, 17:04 * Lastly, a poster here insulted Alex Linder as a man of no honor. That is low.*

Don't talk to me about what's low jack_boot. I'm not the one trying to destroy the reputation of somebody who has proven himself dedicated and committed to fighting our enemies in a very public way just because I want his job. Alex Linder is. What could be lower than that?

jack_boot

2003-07-29 00:53 | User Profile

Originally posted by Wayland+Jul 28 2003, 18:43 -->

QUOTE (Wayland @ Jul 28 2003, 18:43 )

<!--QuoteBegin-jack_boot@Jul 28 2003, 17:04 * Lastly, a poster here insulted Alex Linder as a man of no honor. That is low.* Don't talk to me about what's low jack_boot. I'm not the one trying to destroy the reputation of somebody who has proven himself dedicated and committed to fighting our enemies in a very public way just because I want his job. Alex Linder is. What could be lower than that? ** Point taken. I too condemn the scurrilous and baseless slander directed at Kevin Alfred Strom. I was not defending that; and in a more civilized day, Linder and Strom would certainly be facing off at twenty paces by dawn tomorrow. I would have said White but I doubt he'd show up. Linder would. I hope you understand the difference - that is what I meant. Wayland 2003-07-29 00:53 | User Profile Gaius Marius, why should we give a damn whether the NA is a for-profit corp or not? Personally I couldn't care less, but if they are, I hope they make lots of money. That way they can hire more people, pay them more, and get more done. Or do you think everybody working there should work for nothing? Okiereddust 2003-07-29 01:12 | User Profile Originally posted by Bardamu@Jul 29 2003, 00:14 * The problem is not with the leadership of the patriotic movement. The problem is with the masses.* Whine whine whine. Sounds like the Pharisee's famous jeremiad "this multitude who knoweth not the law is accursed." Maybe the masses haven't been given any leadership they can trust. We don't trust them, how do you expect people outside the movement to? Maguire's article and elsewhere on this thread I think points to a real problem why the "masses" aren't joining with is. There is no real viable organization to follow, which is really trying to get people to join and establish local chapters, which is the only way a movement will really grow. Instead you seem to have people, all nearr Washington D.C, who mainly just seem to sell books, collect dues, and sell CD's - things that won't threaten them with lawsuits from real flesh and blood members doing real flesh and blood things. That's what the significance of the Chester Doles affair is now I see. Linder's agenda might not be above reproach itself, but at least he recognized the significance of it and did something to help with the real flesh and blood problems members in the heartland will experience if they get off their arses and modems and actually do something. That's one of the things a national organization has got to do if it expects anyone to concretely put out for it, rather than just arguing among themselves or otherwise just blowing off steam. Bardamu 2003-07-29 01:34 | User Profile Originally posted by Okiereddust@Jul 28 2003, 19:12 *   Sounds like the Pharisee's famous jeremiad "this multitude who knoweth not the law is accursed.* What are you trying to do, bore me to death? **Maguire's article and elsewhere on this thread I think points to a real problem why the "masses" aren't joining with is. ** I'm happy the NA turns a profit. I'm glad it's incorporated. Okiereddust 2003-07-29 02:18 | User Profile Originally posted by Bardamu+Jul 29 2003, 01:34 --> QUOTE (Bardamu @ Jul 29 2003, 01:34 ) <!--QuoteBegin-Okiereddust@Jul 28 2003, 19:12 *   Sounds like the Pharisee's famous jeremiad "this multitude who knoweth not the law is accursed.* What are you trying to do, bore me to death?.... I'm happy the NA turns a profit. I'm glad it's incorporated.** Check this heathen's Bible knowledge - the temple doesn't matter then, just the gold in the temple? Gaius Marius 2003-07-29 06:05 | User Profile Originally posted by Wayland@Jul 28 2003, 18:53 * Gaius Marius, why should we give a damn whether the NA is a for-profit corp or not? Personally I couldn't care less, but if they are, I hope they make lots of money. That way they can hire more people, pay them more, and get more done. Or do you think everybody working there should work for nothing?* The fact that the National Alliance, Inc., is a for-profit organization is NOT a issue. Never has been. One of the issues "Maguire" raises is why hasn't the NA been open and out front about its status and stockholders, just like any other profit-oriented corporation? Another is why hasn't the NA been up front with its 'members' about their legal standing within the corporation? The press and ADL insinuate that the NA is a terrorist organization. What better way to dispel this bullsht in the public mind than to remind people that the NA is an entirely legal and above-board corporation under charter by the state of Virginia and subject to state and federal laws? Why would a legal and above-board* corporation allow its reputation to be tarnished so easily? Why can't the National Alliance, Inc., provide its 'members' with the same information it is probably providing to the ADL via the Internal Revenue Service (e.g., Clinton)? How many investors are likely to sink money into what appears to be a 'sleazy' enterprise? Think about it. These are just a few reasons why YOU should care. jack_boot 2003-07-29 12:02 | User Profile Gentlemen, I wrote clumsily last night. It would seem that I let a little stress get the better of me. A moment of weakness, if you know what I mean. I hope you'll overlook it. Gaius makes a couple of good points about the NA's public relations, sure, but there is no way I'm buying into the idea that it's a false flag operation. Pierce lived as an ascetic. If he was interested in personal enrichment, he'd have cooked up a better moneymaking scheme than a White Nationalist political organization. Money equals power, and Pierce certainly knew that; he had his motives when it came to fundraising, but a new BMW was not among them. jack_boot 2003-07-29 12:42 | User Profile By the way, permit me to introduce Godless, a wine-and-cheeser from the discussanything forum. Not a bad sort, but apparently unaccustomed to the company of men. He is shocked - shocked - at the very idea that warfare might be the only alternative to our own racial destruction. As a non-White, he doesn't consider our suicide/genocide such a big deal. Okiereddust 2003-07-29 14:25 | User Profile Originally posted by Gaius Marius@Jul 29 2003, 06:05 * *Think about it. These are just a few reasons why YOU should care.** I agree with you. Anyone who gives their money to an organization without a complete breakdown bein available of where it's going to is a fool. And anyone who doesn't think the need for money doesn't affect people's actions is equaly a fool. Look at the history of any political organization. And look at the constant atacks the NA/VNN themselves make on the rest of the right for selling out to ZOG, i.e., currying favor with the establishment by not being forceful and forthright enough about the problems facing our country. Okiereddust 2003-07-29 15:16 | User Profile Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 29 2003, 14:51 * *But that's only because many/most of you don't know that the general taboo on public discussions of race is going to be broken very soon. ** Oh really? I'll believe that when I see it. Say when Kevin MacDonald starts appearing on O'Reily and Phil Donohue. **In the end, what you guys want is something very simple: you want the standard of living for Americans to continue to be high, you want our national security preserved, and you want to improve our economy. You would not care about your "race" if you did not feel that your standard of living was at stake. You have as little in common with the 30 million sub-85 IQ American whites as you do with the 15 million sub-85 IQ American blacks.  True or false? ** Firstly here GC, when you talk about us not liking those sub 85 IQ whites, are you trying to divide our forum :lol: Seriously, your categorizations are very materialistic. These don't get to the heart of the issue, cultural dysfunction and disunity, caused by multiculturalism The thing is - immigration reform is a legitimate issue. BUT - to reform immigration means that the sails are taken out of white nationalism. Can you accept that? Do you want immigration reform, or do you want racewar? There may be a few blusterers here, but obviously no one of the keyboard warriors on this forum really wishes for war. I don't think however even a hypothetical end to mass immigration will get to the direct problem, which is the dominance of multiculturalism and its apparatus. Especially if the dynamics driving such a pause are just seen as a ruse by the multiculturalist establishment to stay in power. After all as long as this establishment is in power, it can resume mass imigration just as quickly as it ended it. The Skunk 2003-07-29 15:39 | User Profile When a jew runs a false flag - 99% of the organization doesn't know it On 9/11 - 8:13 --- FAA knows 1st hijacked 8:22 --- Stews are calling telling of killings 8:25 --- FAA knows 2nd jet hijacked The strange part At 8:40 the 3rd jet is hijacked - flies for 9:42 and hits pentagon Washington is the most heavily protected area in the world - no jet could have hit the pentagon. [img]http://home.att.net/~whitesox/israel/trbfv.jpg[/img] The point is 9/11 was masterminded by the jews - the fact that jets being shot down - explosives in the WTC - NORAD - and a million other things were never investigated. All these ' Supposed Anti Semetic' sites ( National Vanguard ) never said sh*t - they play their nonsense about negroes and mexicans Oklahoma City - That was hatched in Cour de Leon Idaho - where the great anti semite Hoffman is from. Jews create this crap - it serves as a pool ( mecca )for dissidents ** How does it work** All you need is one Shabbot Goy to instigate the fools like McVeigh. In israel the jews set up the Hamas - the arabs join - and one person sets the wheels in motion ** I made websites - David Irving link to them - within 4 hours they were pulled Real threats to the jews don't last 5 minutes Okiereddust 2003-07-29 16:01 | User Profile Originally posted by The Skunk@Jul 29 2003, 15:39 * *When a jew runs a false flag - 99% of the organization doesn't know it Oklahoma City - That was hatched in Cour de Leon Idaho - where the great anti semite Hoffman is from. Jews create this crap - it serves as a pool ( mecca )for dissidents ** How does it work** All you need is one Shabbot Goy to instigate the fools like McVeigh. In israel the jews set up the Hamas - the arabs join - and one person sets the wheels in motion ** I made websites - David Irving link to them - within 4 hours they were pulled Real threats to the jews don't last 5 minutes** I can't buy into all your theories Skunk, but I certainly see the need for suspicion. You're right, real threats are often dealt with very quickly. When we see something that claims to be a real threat to Jewish interests and power, and yet hangsaround forever, like the NA national headquarters and its organization, we ought to at least take a very close look at it. I wonder, what has I really done, besides put out radio broadcasts ad sell a few tapes and records? NA/VNN members write of Buchananism and paleoconservatism on the same criteria - not enough active results - yet they whine like hyena's when we subject their orgaization, ideology, and methods to the same type criticism they level at everyone else. jack_boot 2003-07-29 16:47 | User Profile Hold on there, Godless. MacDonald calls himself a psychologist, not a biologist. Psychology is his science and he sticks to it - observe and report; no bogus "diagnoses" or "therapies", quackery which has so tattered the reputation of psychology. At least read Culture Of Critique, for crying out loud. There is more to social engineering than genetics. And for my part, I intend to jump on your site at the next opportunity, I am intrigued. All racialists are greatly encouraged by the fresh breeze of serious racial, biological, and genetic research which will blow the cultural anthropologists off the campus like dandelion fuzz. While you may stratify the social order by intellect, which as Murray and Herrnstein demonstrated is perfectly valid, we speak of kinsmanship and loyalty - a dimension missing from your vision of a perfect social order, perhaps, but not ours. More later, I'm pressed for time. jack_boot 2003-07-29 16:50 | User Profile Damn. Not one of your "originaldissent" links worked. Let's cut to the chase - paste a link to your site, please? If you don't mind a layman poking about. Okiereddust 2003-07-29 16:55 | User Profile Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 29 2003, 16:05 * Kevin MacDonald won't appear on those forums, but a * real * scientist will - one who actually knows some genetics.* Duh right. Probably someone like Stephen Gould. Seriously, your categorizations are very materialistic.  These don't get to the heart of the issue, cultural dysfunction and disunity, caused by multiculturalism ** Sure, but why is multiculturalism bad? It's only bad to the common man if it means crime/lost jobs/lowered standard of living. In Hawaii, the Northwest, Silicon Valley, etc. multiculturalism (at least between whites and Asians) seems to work ok. I have yet to hear of white-Asian race riots, or high Asian criminality, etc. ** You really have no understanding of the effect of culture and cultural cohesiveness versus cultural fragmentation do you? Unfortunately its one of the things we can't really discuss in this society, where multiculturalism rules, and thus people ike you know little about it. I doubt I have the time to reeducate all the people like you. **Let me put it another way: if we bordered China, those illegal immigrants would actually be succeeding in the US, and no one/few people would complain about multiculturalism b/c antiracism would actually work. ** Again, the defects of oriental societies ad culture are one of the things we are not allowed to discuss in our society because of muliculturalism, and I don't have time to educate you. Suffice it to say, oriental socities, while better than more primitive cultures such as Indian/hispanic and african cultures, are no panaceau. You've been miseducated - how you will have to figure out in some part by yourself. ** There may be a few blusterers here, but obviously no one of the keyboard warriors on this forum really wishes for war. I don't think however even a hypothetical end to mass immigration will get to the direct problem, which is the dominance of multiculturalism and its apparatus. ** Ok - I'm happy that we agree that race war is undesirable. Though I think jack_boot might protest a bit, I doubt he wants a racewar either. He's just romanticizing the idea, but it would really mean the end of the US and possibly the end of civilization, given that it would quickly become nuclear. I said it is undesirable, not that it won't happen. Indeed by some standards it already happening, but we just aren't talking about it (when it involves colored vs. whites, as in South Africa, Rhodesia, or the barrios of America for that matter). Oh yeah, and Skunk - you are truly a strange guy. Israel set up Hamas??? :rolleyes: Nevermind, I don't want to know...i'm sure it's all a "jew plot"... :rolleyes: Actually its true, believe it or not. It's an interesting story. They basically set it up as a rival to Al Fatah, but it got out of hand. Okiereddust 2003-07-29 17:29 | User Profile Originally posted by godlesscapitalist+Jul 29 2003, 16:56 --> QUOTE* (godlesscapitalist @ Jul 29 2003, 16:56 ) <!--QuoteBegin-jack_boot@Jul 29 2003, 10:50 * ** Damn. Not one of your "originaldissent" links worked. Let's cut to the chase - paste a link to your site, please? If you don't mind a layman poking about. ** jack: Sorry bout that - the ellipsis broke the link. They're all in the Science and Tech forum. ** Good. Look forward to your Kevin MacDonald reply, especially if it gets beyond the "he doesn't have enough graphs, figures, and mathematical equations" type of penny antiesm. Gaius Marius 2003-07-29 17:49 | User Profile > The press and ADL insinuate that the NA is a terrorist organization.  ** I wonder why. [url=http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/6634]http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/6634[/url]** If the National Alliance, Inc. was a genuine terrorist organization, its charter would have been revoked years ago. You know this, of course, but facts are irrelevant to non-Whites and self-hating/traitorous (w)hite scum. You can deny it all you want, but a lot of you white nationalist types do want to overthrow the government/kill Jews & blacks/etc. You can deny it all you want, but a lot of you self-haters/traitors and non-White types do support the government's anti-White policies - denying White freedom of association, self-determination, independence, etc. - and want to kill Whites (quickly or slowly, as the case may be). So back off, jack off. Okiereddust 2003-07-29 18:35 | User Profile Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 29 2003, 18:17 * It's easy to fantasize about racewar and revolution during surreptitious coffee breaks at work, isn't it? Still, it's not like the NA doesn't want to overthrow the government...they're just not as organized or as competent as Al-Qaeda. Beaten by a buncha Ay-Rabs! :lol: :lol:* Or Hamas. It's just those damn Jews again. Not only do their multiculturalist policies destroy the country, it also keeps them from giving good patriotic terrorist organizations their rightful fair share of Mossad's terrorism organization loot. Of course from this thread we might disagree if that applies to the NA or not. Some say they just are spoiling the prospects for WN in this by country precisely by supporting, at least surriptitiously, organizations like the NA ;) That Arabs are harder to deal and manage for Mossad than American beer-swilling, TV boobs - I don't know. Gaius Marius 2003-07-29 19:08 | User Profile *You would not care about your "race" if you did not feel that your standard of living was at stake. You have as little in common with the 30 million sub-85 IQ American whites as you do with the 15 million sub-85 IQ American blacks.  True or false?* False. For a geneticist (of all people) to admit the reality of race (extended kinship) but claim that high IQ Whites have more in common with high IQ non-Whites is disingenuous to the extreme. This is simply a new argument (originating, perhaps, from one of AmRen or Upstream’s Jewish/shabbas goy cliques) to justify continued multiracialism, continued Jewish supremacy and the gradual extinction of the White racial family. Folks, anti-racist Libertoons use the almighty dollar as the hook to atomize Whites. The hook this so-called racialist uses is IQ. What he wants us to do is voluntarily support the replacement of the Jewish red (egalitarian) boot that is presently pressing upon our collective throats with the Jewish black (racialist) boot! 85 IQ Africoons have more in common with our 85 IQ children than we, the children's 100 IQ parents? Pardon me while I… ROFLMAO Gaius Marius 2003-07-29 19:18 | User Profile **> ** If the National Alliance, Inc. was a genuine terrorist organization...[snip] ** ...it would have actually done something by now. Instead it's full of impotent netnazis who "lack the testicular fortitude" to actually kill anyone or do anything. It's also full of idiots who make statements about running "planes into buildings" just days after the 21st century Pearl Harbor. And of course it's full of spineless fellows like Marc Moran :D :D :D So: impotent + stupid + spineless = ? (hint: :clown:)** We're on to you. Nothing...not one thing...in your reply can refute the fact that if the National Alliance, Inc. was a terrorist organization its charter would have been revoked years ago. You couldn't refute this fact, so you snipped it and replied with stupidities. Stick your tongue back in your mouth, scumbag. No one with a modicum of intelligence is convinced by your repititious use of emoticons. Gaius Marius 2003-07-29 20:01 | User Profile For a geneticist... ..."Godless Capitalist" is pretty stupid. Come on Capitalist, prove your love for Whites by demonstrating your support of: **1. White freedom of association. White self-determination. White independence.** 'Cause if you don't support these things, then you're an anti-White hater/traitor or just a frickin' (w)hite coward with $$$$$ riding on your continued support of the Jewish regime. By the way, Capitalist, to which ethno-racial group do YOU belong? The Skunk 2003-07-29 21:11 | User Profile Originally posted by Okiereddust@Jul 29 2003, 10:01 * ** I can't buy into all your theories Skunk, but I certainly see the need for suspicion.  You're right, real threats are often dealt with very quickly. When we see something that claims* to be a real threat to Jewish interests and power, and yet hangsaround forever, like the NA national headquarters and its organization, we ought to at least take a very close look at it.  I wonder, what has I really done, besides put out radio broadcasts ad sell a few tapes and records?  ** I guess I am just stunned that all these ' National Vangard ' type websites passed on obvious stuff 9/11 --- Arabs had the brains to do that - No way Egpytair 990 --- That was a mossad bomb Uss Cole ---- That was a ' Shape charge ' ( Bodine and Tommy Franks ) Waco ---- Was the SPLC and it's Militia Watch This list is endless. So Okie - When I come across a site like Nat Van - got to be suspicious - Kevin Strom may be real - but the rest of the place - Who knows ? **Take a Zundel ** I got to think he is for real. [color=red]Remember - the jews got away with the USS Liberty - I am sure that could put up a few BS hate sites[/color] Gaius Marius 2003-07-29 22:17 | User Profile > Stick your tongue back in your mouth, scumbag.** Sometimes, when the last bump of crystal meth is wearing off, we are all bound to say things we might regret, or which might violate the terms of service. For these occasions, there is - the edit button.** Got the message, Wintermute. I'll leave so you can continue being civil to the bstrds (note the asterisks) who despise us all. Besides, there's a line of powder on my desk that looks mighty inviting...or shall I go for that case of Bud in corner? Damn, I need a new tat! Decisions, decisions... > ..."Godless Capitalist" is pretty stupid.** Actually, he isn't.** Actually, he is. I checked him out. But do continue treating him with the 'respect' he 'deserves,' okay? See ya in a few months! Okiereddust 2003-07-30 01:13 | User Profile Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 30 2003, 00:13 * Doesn't bother me.  White "independence" in the US is a much dicier matter. While I don't support the cause of white nationalism, I do agree with some of the people here on some* of the problems facing America - particularly the threat posed by unskilled immigration and the criminal underclass. ** As I understand it, part of the problem of "white nationalism" in the US, as an imposition of alien colonialism, is similar to problems you've faced in your own realm. The situation of the Tamils in Sri Lanka for instance is very similar - an alien (to Sri Lanka) race and culture, brought in as part of the British colonial policy of playing one race off against the other. Now what to do about the Tamil's in Sri Lanka? As you must now, there seem to be no simple answers. ** think it's foolish in the extreme to make people like Billy Roper, William Pierce, Alex Linder, Matt Hale, and the like the public spokesmen for your group, and then to complain when they're classified as "domestic terrorists". I would not have to look hard to find calls from them to overthrow the US government. If you're me (or 99.999% of the American population), you react to that with just as much disgust as we react to the Islamic fundamentalists. Well they aren't my spokesman personally, but just because someone theoritically advocates revolution doesn't make them a "terrorist". There has to be an explicit and aggravated call to violence. We went through that with the Smith Act vis a vis the Commnist Party, as I'm sure India did also. As a nonwhite (and I've never hidden the fact that I'm nonwhite), I would not want/allow any of them near a microphone...for the simple reason that they're calling for my murder! Jared Taylor, on the other hand, is a guy that I might meet half way. He's a guy that understands the political process and isn't seeking emotional catharsis through unrealistically vitriolic rhetoric. Well we have Taylor, Francis, and Buchanan backers on this forum on the VNN peole you talk about "squinty Pat" and "canny Sammy". Some think these are just honest people thinking a more radical tack is necessary. Others think it is not beyond the realm of possibility that some of the more extreme rhetoric comes, not from sincere activists, but from government provocateurs planted and paid by the government. That is exactly what happened in Germany with the NPD. Do you ever read the whole thread? Because that's what it boils down to. Are you guys really interested in achieving your goals, ** some of which are more reasonable than the mainstream press allows? ** Or are you interested in daydreaming about the day of the rope while America careeens downhill? As I said above, if you work towards immigration reform, the standard of living of much of this country will be preserved, though it will have taken a hit. But immigration reform takes the sails out of white nationalism. Are you from the "gets worse before it gets better" school of thought? Briefly, as you will note in a search on this forum, we have a difference of opinion on this in some respects, although not quite to the extent you suggest. Look for any thread on Samuel Francis, Pat Buchanan, or American Renaissance/Jerod Taylor. You may wonder of course with people like Taylor around, why so many people here continue to supprt VNN/NA and their type approach. Briefly, to summarize it, its because of the government and its powerful supporting multiculturalist NGO's like the ADL, who continue to treat people like Buchanan, Francis and Taylor litle differently than they do Hale, Pierce, and Linder. When that happens, as usually happens when moderate dissent is quashed, aspirations for legitimate dissent are channeled into more radical channels. In other words we do not just have an immigration problem in the USA right now. We also have a democracy problem. Hugh Lincoln 2003-07-30 14:34 | User Profile Because that's what it boils down to. Are you guys really interested in achieving your goals, some of which are more reasonable than the mainstream press allows? Or are you interested in daydreaming about the day of the rope while America careeens downhill? Little o' both, my friend. See, when you watch White men shredded to meat strips in the Middle East to keep it safe for Jews, your son rejected from law school despite a high LSAT and your sister pelted with rocks thrown by lil' burrheads in the park, you get mad. Very mad. Then you read John Podhoretz, and it makes you even madder. The fantasies are healthy. I know I love mine. What do you fantasize about, godless? But the quiet work goes on, and that's good too. Letters to editors. Internet discussions. Meeting folks. Yes, I fantasize about race war during coffee breaks at work. But that doesn't stop me from working in lawful ways to wake White people up to their dispossession. Really, I don't know why "race war" sounds so radical. We have a race war right now, and blood is being spilled. Or "revolution." The Jews had their revolution, and it lead to the physical, mental and group consciousness death of a lot of Whites, and nobody made a peep. Excuse us while we peep. And wish we could roar. Mr. Tsun 2003-08-02 02:11 | User Profile Originally posted by Okiereddust@Jul 27 2003, 07:34 * > Tsun - Good to see you again and welcome to the board. Wintermute* ** Hello Wintermute, Excuse the delay getting back here; I've been busy. In a day or two, I will have a "groundbreaking" presentation covering some of the very topics discussed on this thread. The information comes from someone who, I think, is a friend of yours from an earlier Forum venue. Another reason for the delay is to see what would shake out after I posted the article that Maguire sent me. No, I have no link to it because he wrote it after several of us asked him some questions on the subjects covered. FAEM is not being updated at this time, so I volunteered to spread that paper around. But what follows are my own comments on the situation, with a bit of a diatribe at the beginning that, I hope, will be long enough to make a bad impression on the undesirable :-) For the sake of brevity, I'll (try to) keep things short; and also because many things will become clear when you and the other good folks have a look at our upcoming Presentation. Ok, then. Hello all... Someone asked why I (a "hater") complain about a "Hate" group. I guess if the "Hate" group actually accomplishes something useful, then I'd not complain too hard, though it's very unlikely that a "Hate" group ever will accomplish anything useful. The original KKK, of example was very useful, but it was not a "Hate"group -- not along the same lines as Pierce's NA, which has accomplished absolutely nothing in 30 years, except to acquire a few acres out in the boondocks and a pole-barn and house trailer or two, etc. We tend to become what we hate. Thats one reason why "Hate Suckz." Some things should be hated, but it is unwise to dwell upon them. Pierce certainly developed a very Semitic Modus operandi. Didn't he? The worst aspect of it was his insistance that, because he couldn't accomplish his stated goal, because his hands were tied by the legal status of his organization (and by the rules regulating it).... then, by God, nobody else would be allowed to accomplish his stated goal either. Really very sad. Pierce claimed his group was a "National Vanguard," but he sucked in many serious and sincere people and turned them into cabal of second rate litter-bugs, all while rendering symbiotic aid and comfort to his (stated) enemy. Again, more will become clear when you view the upcoming Presentation. I don't think that Maguire was so positive that Bill Pierce was willfully nefarious; I imagine that's just the way things worked out. Pierce was willfully ignorant, but he should not have been indulged or encouraged. My own pet peeve about the man is that while he claimed to be "dedicated" to the White race, he actually cared nothing about that race's traditional body of law and custom, which is, of course, an outgrowth of those people's genetic inheritance. He "hated" the fact that White people have certain individualistic tendencies and characteristics, yet those are the very things that have allowed us to attain all our greatest achievements. Where the heck did that idiot get off imagining he'd be allowed to pull the wool over our eyes like that? (!) Pierce stated again and again that "we don't need too many people who can think for themselves." He also stated often that we have "too many Rights." William Pierce was a Kook. Sure, if he'd been a bit more wealthy and influential, we might call him a mere "eccentric" without wincing, but he didn't fit that...err... "Bill," did he? Thus, Kook it is! Think about it. Pierce was a teacher, at the very highest levels. Yet he refused to teach. He could have set up educational programs, but that would have gone against his "no thinking for you honkies" agenda. He could have worked for legal reform and education, but he didn't really, deep down, believe that people should have Rights, so when the feds queered is original request for setting up a Non-profit organization, he offered only the mildest resistance, then slunk off into loserhood, albeit very noisily! Besides, he cared naught about the traditional Rights, Laws, and Custom of the race that he (dishonestly) said he supported and loved. Nice guy! If William Pierce was not actively lying to you good people, then he was doing something far, far worse: lying to himself! It has been said: Self-justification is worse than the original offense! No doubt! Also, William Pierce was prone to moan about the "jewish fascination for filth and scatological topics," yet Our Bill, was, himself, quite anal-retentive (that is, he was if there really is such a thing... better ask the nearest jew head shrinker, ha ha)! Now... the man is dead and gone (and good riddance). However, many people still see "The Struggle" in the wimpy, attenuated, dumbed-down form and format that William Luther Pierce popularized. That must change! You people need to be doing many other things; you have no more time for the type of willful, angst-filled kiddy games that William Pierce tricked you into becoming so addicted to! I suspect that nearly all the people reading this are much more -- I don't want to say "intelligent," for he was pretty bright, so I'll just say "effective" -- than William L. Pierce ever was or ever hoped to be. Those who revere this man seem to do so in direct proportion to their own sense of insignificance. So stop being that way! You are not the weak little people the jews (and William Pierce) claim you are. You are the great and mighty people you read about in the History books! Perhaps that's one reason why History is no longer much taught, and why Pierce was not much interested in it. If you really insist upon idolizing this willfully Kooky man, please don't let it distract you any further from your Duty. Try to become what you are meant to be... work hard to step into your Destiny! If you succeed -- then, if you still want to memorialize William Luther Pierce, maybe we can stick his likeness upon the Two Dollar "Bill." Of course, for someone so Kooky, we'd be much better served by issuing a Three Dollar "Bill!" Bottom Line: William Pierce was an ignoramus. He was willfully ignorant of the very simple cures to all his problems. That ignorance was caused by his hatred for everything White. Pierce's willful ignorance was reinforced every time he opened his silly, impotently scolding mouth to moan, "Now, look what they're doing to us," and then discouraged you from taking any action except indulging him and joining in his circle-jerk of incompetence and ineffectual whining; obnoxious threats (that he wasn't man enough to back up); and buffoonish posturing, (kitty cat in hand). Do you really want to be that way? I bet if you'll think about it for a while, you'll decide that you do not! Any questions? No? Oh.... the man taught you well, then! You might have begun by asking me what Pierce could have done about being turned down in his "quest" to establish a non-profit religious group. The equivalency of "Right of Conscience" and "Freedom of Religion" is a very legal powerful weapon. Whites are being denied Rights based upon their RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS. Whites are being singled out for harassment and persecution, based upon their CONSCIENCE (religious beliefs). Here's what one State constitution has to say about Rights of Conscience: ** "§ 07 Rights of conscience; education; the necessity of religion and knowledge (1851) All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience. No person shall be compelled to attend, erect, or support any place of worship, or maintain any form of worship, against his consent; and no preference shall be given, by law, to any religious society; nor shall any interference with the rights of conscience be permitted. No religious test shall be required, as a qualification for office, nor shall any person be incompetent to be a witness on account of his religious belief; but nothing herein shall be construed to dispense with oaths and affirmations. Religion, morality, and knowledge, however, being essential to good government, it shall be the duty of the general assembly to pass suitable laws to protect every religious denomination in the peaceable enjoyment of its own mode of public worship, and to encourage schools and the means of instruction."      Source: The Ohio Constitution [url=http://tinyurl.com/iiga]http://tinyurl.com/iiga[/url] ** This very well explains what the Founders had in mind when they spoke on that subject, though the corresponding clause in the federal document is much shorter (Bill of Rights, Article One). Readers ought to look up their own State's constitution and find the equivalent wording. This is one issue that can be fought and won! If you people will just fight! It's most important and it SHOULD be the first goal of any organized White effort in America. Look at all the money William Pierce pissed away over the years, after he tucked his tail between his legs, decided that he could live as a loser if he just whined and scolded loudly enough to distract his "marks" from the facts; and if he entered into a state of symbiosis with the Big Time jewish "hate" organizations, which allowed him to live and appear to "thrive," while he allowed them to use his name and the good name of All self-respecting White people to rake in a cool 60 million sheckles each and every year. If Pierce had been any kind of man at all, he'd not have given up -- especially if he knew he was right. Of course, he may not have realized he was right. Pierce knew nothing about, and cared noting for the idea of Law and Rights, maybe he really didn't know about the things I've divulged above. Perhaps William Pierce was just trying to lie his way into an exemption. You never know. But you do know this: The best way for White Americans to launch the fight to reclaim their inalienable Rights is to dissolve the NA (or laugh it off the face of the earth) and move to establish real White "Groups of Conscience" -- local groups that everybody will support, aid, and fight for. Then, link up and use that real Alliance to raise money for the Mother of All Legal Fights; and make the courts enforce the Bill of Rights! I guess if day dreaming of the day you can punish the guilty and the traitors helps you focus, then we can't complain too much about that. But... just try to combine the daydreaming with some useful activities. What say ye? And don't forget the upcoming Presentation, which will make many things clear. Regards, Mr. Tsun (American Anglo-Celt) judea delenda est Disclaimer: I realize that many people reading this are not members of Pierce's National "Alliance" (so-called). I understand that many of you don't have any interest in the fellow. But some do! They should step fooling themselves. il ragno 2003-08-02 04:12 | User Profile Good, meaty thread. with one truth worthy of being carved in stone: [color=purple][SIZE=3][font=Impact]Real threats to the jews don't last 5 minutes [/font][/color][/SIZE] In ten foot high letters, on the side of a mountain. Okiereddust 2003-08-02 12:53 | User Profile Originally posted by il ragno@Aug 2 2003, 04:12 * > [color=purple][SIZE=3][font=Impact]Real threats to the jews don't last 5 minutes [/font][/color][/SIZE]* ** Pessimism sounds witty. But I think discouragement is counterproductive. Doesn't this mean serious opposition to jewry and jewish organizations is imposssible? Okiereddust 2003-08-02 13:02 | User Profile Originally posted by Mr. Tsun@Aug 2 2003, 02:11 * *And don't forget the upcoming Presentation, which will make many things clear. Regards, Mr. Tsun (American Anglo-Celt) judea delenda est Disclaimer: I realize that many people reading this are not members of Pierce's National "Alliance" (so-called).  I understand that many of you don't have any interest in the fellow. But some do! They should step fooling themselves.** I look forward to your presentation and hope it does indeed make things clear. I do wonder though if your inciteful critique of Dr. Pierce and his methods wouldn't have been of better effect while he was still alive. As it is now, I'm sure there will be many who say what's the point? The man is dead, R.I.P. Which is a pity, because I think the criticisms you make of Pierce are not just of him personally, but are generic to those of NS aligned organizations in general, NA, VNN, whatever. It is not just a matter of personality, it is a matter of ideology, as you quite rightly point out. jack_boot 2003-08-02 15:48 | User Profile I've read through Mr. Tsun's plan for a truly effective White Nationalist organization, which took me about 0.0 seconds. Because he doesn't have one. He's got bile and slander, innuendo by the megabyte, but that's it. Thanks a heapin' helpin', Mr. Tsun. Of course, I realize that any constructive thought would be off-topic in a thread dedicated to stabbing a dead man in the back, and sneering at those of us who put any value on his legacy. jack_boot 2003-08-02 16:28 | User Profile ** My own pet peeve about the man is that while he claimed to be "dedicated" to the White race, he actually cared nothing about that race's traditional body of law and custom, which is, of course, an outgrowth of those people's genetic inheritance. He "hated" the fact that White people have certain individualistic tendencies and characteristics, yet those are the very things that have allowed us to attain all our greatest achievements. ** A claim flying in the face of the truth about Pierce's philisophical attitude about Aryan individualism, which anyone who cares to peruse the Alliance archives can see for himself. ** Where the heck did that idiot get off imagining he'd be allowed to pull the wool over our eyes like that? (!) Pierce stated again and again that "we don't need too many people who can think for themselves." He also stated often that we have "too many Rights." ** I personally have never heard him say such a thing even once, much less again and again. William Pierce was a Kook.** Sure, if he'd been a bit more wealthy and influential, we might call him a mere "eccentric" without wincing, but he didn't fit that...err... "Bill," did he? Thus, Kook it is! Think about it. Pierce was a teacher, at the very highest levels. Yet he refused to teach. He could have set up educational programs, but that would have gone against his "no thinking for you honkies" agenda. ** He left behind a body of work that could fill a small library. He spent every waking hour teaching. You lie like a jew, Tsun. **He could have worked for legal reform and education, but he didn't really, deep down, believe that people should have Rights, ** ...says you, with nothing but your own assertions to support this nonsensical and bald-faced lie... **so when the feds queered is original request for setting up a Non-profit organization, he offered only the mildest resistance, then slunk off into loserhood, albeit very noisily! Besides, he cared naught about the traditional Rights, Laws, and Custom of the race that he (dishonestly) said he supported and loved. Nice guy! If William Pierce was not actively lying to you good people, then  he was doing something far, far worse: lying to himself! It has been said: Self-justification is worse than the original offense! No doubt! Also, William Pierce was prone to moan about the "jewish fascination for filth and scatological topics," yet Our Bill, was, himself, quite anal-retentive (that is, he was if there really is such a thing... better ask the nearest jew head shrinker, ha ha)! ** I can think of a scatological reference for you right now, which you richly deserve, but I don't think the administrator will permit it, so let it pass. ** Bottom Line: William Pierce was an ignoramus. He was willfully ignorant of the very simple cures to all his problems. That ignorance was caused by his hatred for everything White. Pierce's willful ignorance was reinforced every time he opened his silly, impotently scolding mouth to moan, "Now, look what they're doing to us," and then discouraged you from taking any action except indulging him and joining in his circle-jerk of incompetence and ineffectual whining; obnoxious threats (that he wasn't man enough to back up); and buffoonish posturing, (kitty cat in hand). Do you really want to be that way? I bet if you'll think about it for a while, you'll decide that you do not! Any questions? No? ** Yeah. Are you a jew? You spew like a jew. **Oh.... the man taught you well, then! You might have begun by asking me what Pierce could have done about being turned down in his "quest" to establish a non-profit religious group. ** Consider it asked, and here's Tsun's breathtaking answer: ** The equivalency of "Right of Conscience" and "Freedom of Religion" is a very legal powerful weapon. Whites are being denied Rights based upon their RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS. Whites are being singled out for harassment and persecution, based upon their CONSCIENCE (religious beliefs). Here's what one State constitution has to say about Rights of Conscience: (SEE ABOVE) This is one issue that can be fought and won! If you people will just fight! It's most important and it SHOULD be the first goal of any organized White effort in America. ** Holy lawbooks, Batman, why didn't anybody think of that before now??!! ** The best way for White Americans to launch the fight to reclaim their inalienable Rights is to ... move to establish real White "Groups of Conscience" -- local groups that everybody will support, aid, and fight for. Then, link up and use that real Alliance to raise money for the Mother of All Legal Fights; and make the courts enforce the Bill of Rights! I guess if day dreaming of the day you can punish the guilty and the traitors helps you focus, then we can't complain too much about that. But... just  try to combine the daydreaming with some useful activities. What say ye? Regards, Mr. Tsun (American Anglo-Celt) judea delenda est ** Oops. Tsun does have a plan after all. I missed it. But who could blame me, tagged on to the end of a gossipy, baseless, lie-packed screed like it was? And it's not all that bad an idea - as I have edited it here. Now let's see Tsun put it into action. If he's half the man Pierce was. If he has half the balls Pierce had. If he has half the dedication, energy, focus and vision of the leader he excoriates post mortem. Mr. Tsun 2003-08-03 04:50 | User Profile Originally posted by Okiereddust@Aug 2 2003, 07:02 * *I look forward to your presentation and hope it does indeed make things clear. I do wonder though if your inciteful critique of Dr. Pierce and his methods wouldn't have been of better effect while he was still alive. As it is now, I'm sure there will be many who say what's the point?  The man is dead, R.I.P. Which is a pity, because I think the criticisms you make of Pierce are not just of him personally, but are generic to those of NS aligned organizations in general, NA, VNN, whatever. It is not just a matter of personality, it is a matter of ideology, as you quite rightly point out.** Nice pun there! ("inciteful.") I'm not aware that anyone was allowed to just waltz in and criticize William Pierce while he was alive. I never met the man. I assume that his words are to be taken at face value. 95 percent good stuff, wrapping 3 percent inert filler and 2 percent totally kooky nonsense, that also serves as a poison pill. But, you're right, my criticism is mostly aimed at those who are now, or may become influenced by the "Piercism" that currently infects America's White Preservation and Survival movement. It's also for the benefit of people who might tend to shy away because they think the National "Alliance" is running the show, or whatever. Although there are other useless groups, the National Alliance -- which actually has more in common with the "Federal" Reserve, than it does with the sort of effort that might be of real use to us -- Pierce's corporation (BTW, do you imagine that you could become a "member" of Sears Roebuck or Alcoa :-) is taken far more seriously than its record warrants. That's mainly because the jewish "Hatewatch" rats are prone to whine about it, all the better to frighten the good "little jews" into sending in their 60 million sheckles every year. If the NA was not taken overly seriously, I wouldn't bother to "pierce" it. In fact, there'd be little wrong with it. After all, is something "wrong" with Odd Fellows (which probably has many more members than the NA)? No! However, William Pierce, and those who aid and abet him, tout their silly little club as the One panecea for the current White Condition. Then, they go out of their way to make it totally impossible for their group to amount to a hill of Boston baked beans, (the morning after you ate them). Thus, those of good conscience ought to lance that boil. I see that La Kevin has an exceptionally excellent essay this weekend. Something about decapitation. There's nothing like threat of losing one's job to smack one back into the real world, eh? It also tends to make one produce better work and that's just what the Stromster has done. I approve of what he wrote 95+3 percent! There remains the usual 2 percent poison pill and here it is: Strom mentions "hierarchy." First he tell us that it means the best people prevail and get the job, etc. That's true, at least it should be true (it once was true here). Next, he moves along to name the National "Alliance" as Dr. Pierces Great Gift to His People. Kevin implies that the National "Alliance" is at the top, or belongs at the top, or you are to perceive it at the top of the White Sufferage Movement (or whatever you care to call this show). Kev also implies that there should be a hierarchy, and the NA should be at the top. Yet to put this silly little corporation in that position would be an even more blatant exercise of "Affirmative Action" than hiring Aunt Jemima as your anesthesiologist. Ha ha; the results would probably be about the same, too! I, on the other hand, often rail against "hierarchical organizations." Does that mean I want some scullery negress sticking hoses up my nose while "Uncle Ben" removes my "apprendix?" No way! It's very obvious that the best man (or maybe woman) for the job should get the job (but ya gots ta DO da job, toots). What I am against is setting up (or trying to set up, as it's actually impossible) some group to save our bacon, that is structured after what you see on the back of the one "dollar" bill. A group like that is pretty easy to derail, co-opt, behead, rat out, or in hundreds of other ways thwart. What you honkies actually need, is a large and ever-growing network of local nodes, all connected together synergetically. This way, you won't need to "clear things with West Virgina," etc., and there will be no bottle necks (nor red necks, nor pencil-necks). Nobody will know much that he or she doesn't need to know, but the whole thing (most of it, at least) can be pretty openly carried out. You will draw other people (e.g. "new blood") into the "movement" because they will be attracted to good people, who have common sense, skills, honesty, ACCOUNTABILITY, and all the rest of the traits that set REAL PEOPLE apart from KOOKY MINI-FUEHRERS. These local nodes will also have proven track records, that will be public record in their areas. At least some of them will, because simply anybody may start a node in any area where there are 2-3 White people available. And any given node may cooperate in any way its members decide best, with any other node or nodes. Some of the groups will work wonders, others will do "OK," yet others will poop out and fail, but their members will probably join other existing nodes or will try again, and again, until they have things right. If you don't like the way this group is doing things, work with that group. Thus, the local quasi-autonomous node paradigm will allow us to do whatever needs to be done, faster and better than the same things can be accomplished (if they can be accomplished at all) by a regularly-touted "hierarchical" organization. Better still, this movement will exist and flourish in plain sight, but at the same time will be "underground," because there will be no "Head" and nobody will know who all the members are, or know all areas in which there are or are not local nodes. Yet all will be working for the common cause, in the best way they can possibly do that, or in a way that will allow them to quickly correct their actions via the feedback they receive, so that they may adapt and change their behavior and protocols to match exsiting conditions (which also change, sometimes rapidly). This, in my opinion, is the only thing that will save y'all from being down-graded; further enslaved; misogynated back to a pre-human state of existance; or even hunted for sport by the various pets and sabbos goys of the jews. Picture, if you will, that infamous Jew, Michael Chertoff. Why, blamed if he ain't the spittin' image o' ol Lucifer incarnate. Do you people really want to see this Satanista and his henchmen driving around your town at night in a Death Van, rounding up people on the famous Red and Blue Hit Lists? Of course you don't! So get busy! Note. There are two other reasons I sometimes write this type of negative "criticism." 1.) I find it heart warming and amusing. So do many others! Humor has a way of "seeping in," sneaking past all those censors we erect to screen out the unorthodox. Of course, everything I've said is also true (that's also necessary for this to work). Mr. K.S. ought to try it sometime. It probaby beats those coffee enemas all to heck! 2.) People tend to remember better, those things that shock and scandolize them and piss them off to no end. So if that's your reaction to this, just keep it in mind (you won't be able to help it, you kooky kultist, you :-) and perhaps one day real soon you'll witness something that will cause something I've typed above trigger in your memory. 3.) People also tend to remember better the things that bore them to tears. So, you see, I've got all the bases covered here! Now, for those of you who are (really) members of the (true) intellectual Hierarchyâ„¢ (you know who you are), please take a look at what you'll find on this page and ponder it in your minds (and hearts): [url=http://www.reciprocality.org/Reciprocality/add.html]http://www.reciprocality.org/Reciprocality/add.html[/url] madrussian 2003-08-03 05:27 | User Profile I would put it simpler that no "movement" will succeed until the ideas become accepted at the mass level. Internet has played orders of magnitudes bigger role than all the organizations like NA combined. Communication, education and comparing notes is done very efficiently via online communications. Mr. Tsun 2003-08-03 15:32 | User Profile Das jack_boot wrote: ** Oops. Tsun does have a plan after all. I missed it. But who could blame me, tagged on to the end of a gossipy, baseless, lie-packed screed like it was? And it's not all that bad an idea - as I have edited it here. Now let's see Tsun put it into action. If he's half the man Pierce was. If he has half the balls Pierce had. If he has half the dedication, energy, focus and vision of the leader he excoriates post mortem. ** Jack, yer all right! I've got a warm spot in me heart for anyone who uses the word "screed." Call me a soft-touch, mate! I can understand that you don't like to see one of your heroes trashed. However, I read at least three of his weekend essays, in his last several years, in which he did say we don't need too many people who can think for themselves. But that's really beside the point. He had a chance and he blew it. Maybe not entirely... or maybe he blew it in such a large way that we'll never know what he could have accomplished, but didn't. Anyhow, you ask me how I will acomplish "my plan?" Easy, it's not "my plan," it's your plan, so you'd better get moving. We need people like you to convince their family, friends, and neighbors (White, that is) to organize locally. I can't do that for you. I'm working on it in my own area, and you're right to think it might be a bit of a slow, drawn-out process. At first. But lay the foundations right, and use the tools that people are creating for this venture right now, and you'll prevail. When we have enough local groups in America -- **real ** local groups (not local subchapters of some out of town clique), then, and only then can we amount to much. But, as they say on VNN: "Itz coming. Oh, as for Pierce not teaching, well, technically you are correct. He tried to teach those around him. But come on! Here's a man who had earned a Ph.D. Sure it often does stand for "Piled higher, Deeper," yet a Ph.D is supposed to know how to use.... teaching assistants! So, maybe the man didn't know how to delegate. And then he got in way over his head and was too busy working to keep the money flowing to have any time to set things up as he might have. I'll agree that it is possible. Still not good for the Cause, though. Attention Okieredrust: You seem to have an uncommon amount of common sense (which isn't all that common, as you probably know all too well). VNN supplies a very needed resource. Hope, relief, and all the news and insight anyone can digest, all wrapped up and held together with some of the most wickedly hilarious commentary and wry wit you're likely to find anywhere. All that and... it names the enemy! VNN's not for everybody, at least not right away, maybe. Personally, I can no longer read the likes of Sam, Lew, Jarod, Pat, et al. Yet the Jews call them "nazis!" Don't you do a double-take when some liberal type, or jew, calls Bush a "nazi." Well, no, maam.... not exactly. You see, the Nazis were racial nationalists who tried to boot out the Usurious Jewish Banksters and who worried so much about their borders that they tried to put them back where they'd been before the end of the last war. Bushy? A "nazi?" That's just too funny for words! It's difficult to put up with those conned-servatives who downgrad the Nazis (and the Klan, too), once you know the truth. In this case, the truth is the fact that conservative mouth pieces were behaving exactly as they are now, back in the Fifties. They absolutely refused to Name the Jew. They are even worse, now for these days, they usually refuse to name themselves as White. You know, the jews and their liberal pets don't really see someone as a danger if he or she is patriotic, loves the constitution, wants to own a gun or twelve, and so on. Oh, they'll call you a racist anti-semite, but they won't even try to get you kiked off Usenet, etc. As you know, as long as conned-servatives are willing to swallow that one, eensy-teensy poison pill... you know, that bit about "We'z all equal and they's only One race 'pon dis heah Eardt!" As long as de ole conned serbatib swaller dat bull pucky, den ole massah jew, he jes grin and grin, fo' he know dat de conned-serbatib an all his race am gwine jes die out an leab de whole plate ob citterlins to de Lawd's chosen co-pilots. An das a fac!" Do you know what really finished my long stint as a reader and supporter of conservatives (and libertarians, too)? I read George Lincoln Rockwell's autobiography, in which one follows a WWII hero's initial awakening to America's political problems and their jewish cause... follow this man as he joins the cause and tries to help, even dedicating all his time, energy, and spare money.... even costing him his first marriage. And for too many years, all he found was a bunch of conned-servatives trying to out jew the jew at trying to be dishonest and sneaky and effect change without using the name of the enemy. Well, you can't fool the jews that way. After all, that's the way the jew operates; it's how he jewed you out of your country and onto the fast track to extinction. Rockwell finally realized that there was only one way out: through the Jews. Anyone who hasn't read this fascinating and well-written account of the early post WWII conservative movement in America will be shocked to find how much the modern conned-servative efforts resemble those of the past. They just refuse to learn. Only things are not the same now, because the jews are closing in for the kill, having finally succeeded in getting rid (they claim) of the Bill of Rights. We have no more time for canny games, though they may have served a purpose at one time (offering a very elementary introduction to reality, until the student could learn enough to understand the real situation (as someone once put it: "The apparent is the bridge to the Real." So read Commander Rockwell's book, This Time the World online and free. If you're a skeptic, try just the very first chapter. Hell, man, the following words hooked me for life! ** ** How does an American who fought the Nazis in World War II, who has a college education and is utterly dedicated to his country, wind up in jail after being attacked by a mob of Jews? How does a man who was looked upon for years as just a 'good guy', become a fanatical Nazi who stands up in public and advocates gas chambers for Jewish or any other kinds of traitors -- and admits he estimates about 80% of adult Jews will be found guilty of treason and have to be gassed? Why me? How had events turned me into such a one, but few or none of my fellows? Was I indeed 'nuts' and 'sick' as the Jews so feverishly insist? ** ** Here's the URL: http://www.faem.com/rockwell/ Bardamu 2003-08-03 16:06 | User Profile Originally posted by Mr. Tsun@Aug 3 2003, 09:32 * ** Attention Okieredrust:* You seem to have an uncommon amount of common sense (which isn't all that common, as you probably know all too well).  ** The internet does bring out amusing things. Okie flatters you up a bit :wub: so he has an uncommon amount of common sense yet you must not be aware that Okie is a bible thumper who despises, as he calls them, the NS types on this board. :P But you have a good writing style and good ideas so more power to you Mr. Tsun. :th: jack_boot 2003-08-03 16:30 | User Profile All right. I'll grant Tsun's sincerity, and he does have workable ideas - ideas long espoused by the National Alliance, such as community action. White Nationalism, right now, is a plague ship, with no captain, the crew at each others' throats, screaming madly about the Maelstrom engulfing us, as we go round and round and down and down. Tsun skewers me for being a chump and a Pierce cultist. I skewer him back. The VNN types vilify the Stormfront types; everybody points fingers, everybody's a fool, everybody's a jew tool. Our enemies are fat and rich and powerful. They have hijacked American foreign policy to conquer the Mideast for Israel. They have armed themselves with nuclear weapons. They have seized control of the media and successfully demonized us. They have opened the borders and we are aswarm with third world lowlife. To object is to "hate". They and the supercapitalists of all races are enthusiastically offshoring the entire American industrial and technical sector, a policy guaranteed to pauperize the White man in what's left of his homeland. They have cut our balls off, gentlemen. And Tsun and I come in here and yell "asshole" at each other. The Nosen Ones are laughing their kosher asses off; they've won, big time, and they know it. Even war may not solve the problem for us, it's that bad. Well, Tsun's right about one thing, we better get to work. I, for one, withdraw from this argument about the NA. Form your own conclusions. Then, get to work, do what you think is right, whether NA or not. Okiereddust 2003-08-03 17:40 | User Profile Originally posted by jack_boot@Aug 3 2003, 16:30 * *And Tsun and I come in here and yell "asshole" at each other. The Nosen Ones are laughing their kosher asses off; they've won, big time, and they know it. Even war may not solve the problem for us, it's that bad. Well, Tsun's right about one thing, we better get to work. I, for one, withdraw from this argument about the NA. ** Originally posted by Bardamu+Aug 3 2003, 16:06 --> QUOTE (Bardamu @ Aug 3 2003, 16:06 ) <!--QuoteBegin-Mr. Tsun@Aug 3 2003, 09:32 * ** Attention Okieredrust:* You seem to have an uncommon amount of common sense (which isn't all that common, as you probably know all too well).  ** The internet does bring out amusing things. Okie flatters you up a bit :wub: so he has an uncommon amount of common sense yet you must not be aware that Okie is a bible thumper who despises, as he calls them, the NS types on this board. :P But you have a good writing style and good ideas so more power to you Mr. Tsun. :th:** Glad to see some NAer with an Indian rban type avatar is willing to put in a timely NA type reminder that sentimental shows of WN unity musn't distract them from their primary goal of burning all the Churches and barbequing all the Christians preparatory to announcing the movement as the rightful savior and unifyer of "western man". True WN's must keep their priorities - this "all go back to fighting our common enemy" is fine, just as long as we don't forget who it is - "renegade" or "pseudo" WN's. And what's more Barmudu, at least in your case, you're very convincing. <_< Okiereddust 2003-08-03 21:13 | User Profile *Originally posted by wintermute@Aug 3 2003, 21:04 * ** Naturally, this consideration applies to Christians as well. ** What! No human sacrifices? :rolleyes: Bardamu 2003-08-03 22:33 | User Profile Call someone a bible thumper and they accuse you of wanting to barbeque Christians and burn churches. Sheesh. B) Mr. Tsun 2003-08-04 05:04 | User Profile Wintermute is correct about no destination yet. I'd say we haven't even laid the keel! I'm doing my part by whittling up a nifty-looking dragon's head to stick on the prow. :th: Okiredrust does have an uncommon amount of common sense. It's just that Bible thumbing sometimes tends to neutralize common sense in Homo sapiens. I've nothing particularly against Christians, though I think if there were no Christians, there would be no jews today. I also agree that what's good in Christianity isn't new and what's new in it is not always so good. Sadly, many Christians, when they find out you are not drinking from their cup of tea, immediately take offense. If that's their choice. So be it. I think we should keep the First Amendment, also known as Article One of the Bill of Rights. jack_boot 2003-08-04 11:57 | User Profile Well, at least we've agreed on an analogy: the ship. It's a start. Bardamu 2003-08-04 13:03 | User Profile Originally posted by Mr. Tsun@Aug 3 2003, 23:04 * ** I think we should keep the First Amendment, also known as Article One of the Bill of Rights.* Freedom of religion is an ancient Aryan value. I support it 97%. That extra 3% I reserve for self-chosen alliances of cultural destruction that kill healthy national organisms. Freedom of speech is also an ancient value. I like the saying, a slave is he who cannot speak his mind. The mass media, now there is an entity that needs a shake-up. Mr. Tsun 2003-08-04 17:10 | User Profile Bardamu, The current mass media has nothing to do with free speech. The federal government effectively made it that way when it licensed use of the public airwaves. I don't think you'd need to dig too deeply to find out who thought that one up. If airwaves are not to be licensed, no problem. But if they are, then they should not be given into the hand of enemy aliens. It's that simple. And they may be taken back from those enemy aliens, without any monetary compensation being made. Most of those aliens, 'tis true, deserve to be executed, after due process of Law. But if they agree to "hand it over and scuttle to safety beneath some rock in "Israel," who knows: maybe they'll be allowed to live. Also, if any group, either real or imagined, may be labeled a terrorist organization, and banned, and its members rounded up and persecuted (or merely deported with the clothes on their backs), then that surely holds true for that terrorist organization, calling itself "the jewish people." jack_boot Every boat begins with a plan, either on paper or in the head of someone who has build one before. "Boat" is a great analogy because you can't just grab some wood and build one. The compound curves involved make it more tricky than that. People need to be told certain things, so these things will be seeded and implanted into their gray matter. For instance, the truth about Rights would be a good start, for those Patriots, "Christian Patriots, etc., who are not currently very helpful to the struggle. The most basic Right is the Right of Conscience. This was once known as Freedom of Religion, but it has nothing to do with what's normally known as "religion," especially State-chartered "churches," which must also be controlled by their Creator, the State. Freedom of Conscience means you may not be coerced into, or prevented from doing, various things that your conscience tells you to do or not do. The line here is drawn at "does it hurt someone else, or destroy their property. You can't sacrifice your neighbor, for example, or dump your crap upriver from him. Hurting someone's feelings, of course, does not count. Conscience is, of course, that tiny small voice that was once known as "a particle of the Deity, that dwells within each man and woman. You lost the Right of Conscience long ago, at the point of a federal bayonet. Next comes the Right of Free Association, so that people of similar conscience may associate together and work on mutually beneficial things. You lost that Right long ago, at the point of a federal bayonet, Next comes freedom of Speech. This allows people who practice the first two Rights to communicate to themselves and others. It allows others to communicate too. You have nearly lost that right, because all you're allowed to say now is "Tits, sht, ass, and fck;" or you may exclaim over any ball team in the league, or over any "issue" the jew newspapers mention ( usually these are fake issues). However, you can't say anything about what is troubling your Conscience. True, the justice system will not (yet) round you up and send you to the gulag, but the justice system will not file charges against those who fire you, based upon your exercise of speaking your Conscience. The jewstace system also won't use Racketeering (RICO) laws against those people and organizations who openly ** conspire do deny you a livelihood by seeing to it that you are harassed or fired, etc. Thus, the federal and state governments are engaging in persecution, that negates several Articles in the Bills of Rights in both state and federal constitutions. They do this by selective enforcement of their various rules. The proper solution to this is probably some kind of law suit. Maybe a writ of mandamus would be useful. One thing for sure: any lawyer who promotes himself as a "patriot" ought to be very interested in this. ** This simple knowledge must be spread and also put into more simple terms, so that everyone can understand it without needing to think long and hard, or read several lengthy court cases, otherwise people will not understand it or give it the time of day. I'd call this "Laying the Keel." Everyone must do this on his or her own, discussing the issue with family, friends, and neighbors, co-workers, etc. There is no need to mention "jews" or "negroes," here, except perhaps in passing and only after you have their attention and basic understanding. And only after you have gotten them to say, "Yes" to several initial and elementary statements or to answer a few simple and leading questions. Nearly every day, opportunity comes up in the news, etc., for these things to be discussed. Especially nowadays, with the jews becoming so open and the feds making so many (fake) claims that they are negating various Articles of the Bill of Rights. For all the comments made either way (pro or con) in regard to William Pierce, he seriously neglected (if not totally ignored) these very simple foundation steps. Then he went on to rail against "lemmings." Well, many people behave like lemmings, but it's also true that if people don't believe you, and you are telling them the truth, then it's your problem because you haven't explained yourself well enough. Also, who was Pierce to imagine that total strangers would pay any attention to anything he wanted to tell them or wanted them to think about.... when these things are so different from what they have been told by "real" authorities. No, it's necessary to explain things in terms the people will understand. That tends to cange with current events and with the fluctuating wisdom-to-ignorance ratio of a given demographic. At some times, you can't probably get people to understand anything. At other times -- often in what the Chinese call "Interesting Times," it's much easier, because the people's very existance and social foundation is changing and hit by constant attacks. Regards, Tsun Bardamu 2003-08-05 02:48 | User Profile Mr. Tsun Good words. I especially liked that about Freedom of Conscience. I had forgotten the concept. Powerful it is -- and truly western. I also like another expression you used, I think it was "the White survival movement", as a descriptive term for what we are. Regards, Okiereddust 2003-08-05 04:57 | User Profile Originally posted by Bardamu@Aug 5 2003, 02:48 * *Mr. Tsun Good words. I  especially liked that about Freedom of Conscience. I had forgotten the concept. Powerful it is -- and truly western. I also like another expression you used, I think it was "the White survival movement", as a descriptive term for what we are. Regards,** Powerful and truly Western it is. Whether it is NS of course is another story. NS's always had trouble with it, and Pierce style NAers and like with their fuehrerprinzep seem to have the same trouble today, something Mr. Tsun is pretty clearly alluding to. An example of criticism from within the 3rd Reich was Papen's delivery of a speech written for him by Edgar Jung (highly rated today within some Strasserite circles). **While accounting for the alliance between the conservatives and the Nazis which led to the revolution Papen redefined conservatism as the philosophy of freedom. There was no longer any trace of the ambiguities of Moeller's style when Papen attacked the "rule of the catchword" ".......There are .......people who speak no single sentance without misusing the word "liberalistic". They are of the opinion that genuine humanitarianism (Humanitat) is liberalistoic whereas in reality it is a fruit of the classic and Christian tradition. They call freedom a liberal concept, wheras in reality it is an old German tradition. They attack equality before the judge, denouncing it as a liberal degeneration, whereas in reality it is the basis of every just verdict. Those people suppress that very fundamental of state which at all times, not only in liberal ones, has been caled justice.  Their attacks are directed against the security and freedom of the private sphere of life......." (Rede des Vizekanzlers von Papen vor dem Universitatsbund, Marburg am 17 Juni 1934)** (Klemens von Klemperer, Germany's New Conservatism)** MadScienceType 2003-08-05 15:32 | User Profile **I'd call this "Laying the Keel." Everyone must do this on his or her own, discussing the issue with family, friends, and neighbors, co-workers, etc. There is no need to mention "jews" or "negroes," here, except perhaps in passing and only after you have their attention and basic understanding. And only after you have gotten them to say, "Yes" to several initial and elementary statements or to answer a few simple and leading questions. ** I find that the Wichita Massacre is a great opener for fence sitters on the racial issue. I usually don't even mention the races at first, but ask why the person I'm talking to has never heard of it. Later, I reveal the ethnicity of the participants and contrast it with the hysteria going on at roughly the same time about the Jasper incident. Works like a charm. Valley Forge 2004-02-02 01:21 | User Profile [SIZE=5]The National Alliance, Incorporated: A ZOG False Flag Combat Cell[/SIZE] by Colonel "Maguire" 7-30-2003 The key to understanding the National Alliance (NA) is understanding its true structure. The National Alliance is a private for-profit corporation chartered by the Commonwealth of Virginia (not West Virginia). The NA has stockholders, officers, directors and employees. And it has 'customers'. Dr. Pierce's 'chairmanship' was always chairman of the Board of Directors of this Virginia for profit corporation. The constant introduction of Dr. Pierce as 'Chairman' started in the days when the 'Chairman' of the Communist Party of the USSR was a political figure of importance. The listener was invited to conclude Dr. Pierce was also a political figure with the title of 'Chairman'. The Virginia Secretary of the Commonwealth's corporate data website reports the current 2003 officers as: OFFICERS/DIRECTORS DISPLAY FOR AR# 203-14-2156 L T NAME TITLE SIGN B FRED GENE STREED PRESIDENT B KATHERINE MOLZ VICE PRESIDENT B ROBERT A DEMARAIS SECRETARY B ERICH J GLIEBE CHAIRMAN The National Alliance's publicly registered Virginia address is: 1330 GORDEN WALL CIR APT 402, RESTON, VA 20194. The true spelling is GARDEN WALL CIRCLE. The Fairfax County tax assessor's website reports this address is a condominium owned by NA Vice President Katherine Molz. This address is just outside Washington DC in Fairfax County. The NA's registered address in Fairfax County, Virginia gives it many famous neighbors, including the Central Intelligence Agency. What does the NA do? This privately owned corporation is a media company. It has three major profit centers. The foremost profit center is Resistance Records, a subsidiary the NA owns as Resistance LLC. Resistance Records markets "White Power Music" and related paraphernalia to young white males. This business is 'Chairman' Erich Gliebe's real focus. It's what he did before Dr. Pierce died and it's what he concentrates on now. The second profit center is National Vanguard Books. The NA's secretary, Dr. Robert DeMarais - a former professor of business -, continues to operate National Vanguard Books as he did before Dr. Pierce's death. The third profit center is 'membership dues'. For all practical purposes these National Alliance memberships are merely 'fan club' memberships in what we can fairly term the Dr. William Pierce Fan Club. This is identical to other fan clubs for famous celebrities. These memberships do not confer ownership (i.e. stock). Nor are the corporate officers and directors otherwise accountable to the 'members'. This is why the NA even solicits anonymous memberships. What the 'member' purchases is a false sense of belonging to something that is doing something. This is no different from the official Jennifer Lopez Fan Club The National Alliance, Incorporated, uses two principle forms of advertising to market its wares to its target demographic of young white males. The major advertising channel is the "American Dissident Voices" radio and internet broadcast. Since Dr. Pierce's death Kevin Strom has resumed doing the ADV broadcasts. The American Dissident Voices show was really Kevin Strom's creation. He organized the original shortwave and small town AM/FM network in the 1990s, provided the technical support and occaisionally stood in for Dr. Pierce. The other 'advertisment' are the midnight 'literature distributions' conducted by the so-called 'Local Units' (i.e. the local Dr. Pierce fan club chapters). This involves dropping NA, Inc approved flyers in residential neighborhood driveways. The principle objective of these flyer distributions is to get people to contact the National Alliance's main e-commerce website. A symbiotic relationship: The National Alliance and the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith. The second morning after each literature distribution the local newspaper always runs an Anti-Defamation League written template article about 'hate'. This boilerplate article serves both the National Alliance and the Anti-Defamation League's fund raising goals. The ADL routinely hails the NA as the "most dangerous organization in America", even though ADL 'investigators' have long known about the NA's true structure. The entire transaction scares up more donations for the ADL from neurotic Jews while also recruiting still more customers for the NA. The NA's only positive goal is to maximize its own profits, just like any other private corporation. In the furtherance of this profit goal the National Alliance, Incorporated has willingly allowed its ostensible deadly enemy, the masonic Jewish supremacists of B'nai B'rith, to simultaeously define the pro-white cause for the American public and to delegitimate it. With minor variations this business model has now been operating for three decades, ever since the National Alliance was incorporated in 1974. Failure of the 'non-Movement' There was never any possibility for the NA to progress beyond media operations into becoming a civil and political leadership cadre. The National Alliance, Incorporated collectively can no more participate in direct local politics than can Texaco or IBM. The corporation laws of the State of Virginia debar this. Beyond this it has no existence at local levels and cannot operate without registering to do business in each area. Because of this eschewal of political participation the National Alliance has directed the pro-white movement up a blind alley. The abandonment of the political arena led to a huge relaxation of pesonnel standards. The simple expedient of requiring activists to have a voter identification card would screen out the most egregious felons who have been responsible for 99% of the unproductive incidents used to delegitimante the pro-white movement. Meanwhile the commercial profit imperative led to active appeals to a highly unstable group of individuals. These parallel mechanisms, combined with the tacit working relationship with the ADL, are the major reasons the pro-white movement is teeming with so many convicted felons and borderline psychotics. Those in editorial control of National Alliance media can exert a background influence on the social and political environment. But this influence will always be proportional to their circulation. Since the NA's circulation is extremely limited, diffused over a large geographical area, and the content irrelevant to local conditions or people, the resulting influence is also very superficial. Non-existent is a better term. Marc Moran in New Jersey recently discovered the illusionary nature of the existing 'non-Movement' when he attempted venturing into local borough politics. Those private corporation leaders personally profiting from the Movement are always quick to point to such events as confirmation of their thesis that the political process should be avoided. Enter Vanguard News Network and ShopWhite. The Vanguard News Network and Bill White are currently in the final stages of opening an eBay clone called "ShopWhite". What Bill White and Alex Linder of VNN are doing is making a transparent move on Resistance Records' (the NA's major profit center) consumer base. Presently a White Power Band has very limited options open to it for marketing. They can market through Panzerfaust Records or they can sell through the NA subsidiary, Resistance Records. White and Linder intend to use ShopWhite to capture Resistance Records' White Power music and paraphernalia market. As Bill White said recently, ShopWhite will be a sole proprietorship with himself as sole proprietor. We can thus add ShopWhite to his NORFED redemption center franchise and other commercial internet activities. There's a fair amount of money at stake here. The total revenue stream for White Power music CDs and paraphernalia is probably $3 million to $5 million per year. To this can be added books, tapes and videos of various kinds as well as militaria. Bill White intends to snag 10% or so of this revenue stream for himself. Emphasis on 'so'. This underlies all the recent smoke on [url]www.overthrow.com[/url] about Kevin Strom, Erich Gliebe and others. The Kevin Strom flap is a secondary attack on the NA's major advertising channel (American Dissident Vocies). It's also an indirect attack on Eric Gliebe and Resistance Records. It is crucial to the success of this effort that it not be seen for the commercial ploy it really is. This is because the customers would be awakened to their own real status both with the NA and in the future under ShopWhite. White and Linder cannot openly admit they are now commercial competitors with Gliebe, Demarais & Company. The immediate struggle is thus a fight over control of existing White Power paraphernalia consumers. It will not add more strength or organization to the unorganized pro-white population, advance them towards political power, or develop subordinate community leaders. Bill White says this will happen but what else could he say? Crucial to the endeavor is maintaining the illusion the 'Movement' as it presently exists is something other than a media marketing scheme. Alex Linder (and Bill White to a degree) are more honest about what's up than Dr. Pierce ever was. So this may be a healthy puff of fresh air. We'll see how close Mr. White comes to eBay openess. Dr. Pierce always maintained a pretense that the NA was some sort of collective organization. The reality is the NA is and always was a private for-profit media company partly organized on the lines of Amway. But it was not as aggressive. Nor was it as effective in sinking in its roots locally for reasons seen above and below. Neither VNN or its ShopWhite enterprise are going to 'overthrow' the NA, although they will probably greatly reduce NA Inc's revenue and profit stream. The NA is a private corporation incorporated by the Commonwealth of Virginia. By this point any thinking person is wondering why the government has never taken the simple step of revoking the corporate charter of this 'dangerous terrorist organization', as it's called by the ADL and its agentur in the FBI and the Department of Justice 'Anti-Terrorism Task Force'. They've always had it in their power to do this but found it convenient not to do so for some reason. The Political Persecution of Chester Doles. Chester Doles occupied a unique place in the National Alliance. He was the most powerful and successful 'NA leader' who was not actually an employee or director of the National Alliance, Incorporated. By his own efforts and dynamism he had raised his particular local unit in Georgia to several hundred members. Unlike the other delivery boy operations Doles' local unit was acquiring real independent life and a community character. Most notable about this unit was its concentration in a relatively small rural area. These 'members' were thus less useful to the NA's business model (and its symbiotic relationship with the ADL) while Mr. Doles himself was a dangerous potential competitor. Shortly before his arrest by the ADL lawyers occupying Department of Justice offices Mr. Doles was openly breaking with the National Alliance. He had complained on several occaisions about the large number of federal, ADL and SPLC informers within the National Alliance. Following Dole's arrest the officers and directors of the National Alliance, Inc., tried to abandon Mr. Doles. Alex Linder and VNN initiated the Chester Doles/Goy Genius challenge to raise $50,000 for Mr. Doles defense. This succeeded and former U.S. Congressman and district attorney Robert Barr has now undertaken Mr. Doles' legal defense. This defense is against charges lodged by Michael Chertoff, a board director of the ADL, a Bush political appointee to the Department of Justice and former chairman of the 'Anti-Terrorism Task Force'. The National Alliance, Incorporated: A ZOG False Flag combat cell? Political police in all regimes often use a tactic called a "False Flag" front or combat cell. This operation involves setting up a front organization that appears to be a real opposition group. The purposes of False Flag operations are to capture control of and thus disrupt and prevent any real political opposition from emerging. Potential dissidents are both identified by this means and their efforts and resources diverted into fruitless endeavors. Is the National Alliance, Incorporated a ZOG false flag? This charge has been hurled previously. Let us consider the evidence anew. The private corporation structure and Dr. Pierce's explicit policies permanently foreclosed any attempts at participating in civil politics. Within the closed cult world of the NA that Day of civil participation and legitimacy always lies somewhere off in an undeterminate future. As with the 'Rapture' the precise timing is unknown, is inherently unknowable, but it is coming Soon. In practice the current corporate leadership's tenure always expires before that Day arrives. 'But it is coming Real Soon. And while you wait, buy cds, books and donate money.' None of the real officers, directors, stockholders or employees of this 'dangerous terrorist group' have ever been arrested. They appear to possess a teflon immunity from police interference, even when they harbor international fugitives like Hendrik Moebus. The simple method of destroying this 'dangerous terrorist organization', revoking its Virginia corporate charter, has never been used. The lawyers of the Deparment of Justice, the FBI and the ADL have long been aware of National Alliance, Incorporated. It's a matter of public record. Chester Doles, the most effective leader outside the NA's corporate structure, was arrested. NA Incorporated first tried to abandon him. His defense fund was raised by a revolt among its fans. Whether the officers, directors, stockholders or employees of NA Incorporated are conscious agents is really irrelevant. "By their fruits ye shall know them", said one Teacher. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck.... "Maguire" [url]http://www.dowz.net/maguire/maguire4.html[/url] Franco 2004-02-02 01:55 | User Profile Oh, yeeeaaahhhh....suuuure.....the NA's book catalogue has been published for years, and they have sold MANY WN books to MANY people, but yet somehow.... [B]Oh, come on!! Gimme a break!...[/B] 1 Patriot 2004-02-02 03:17 | User Profile Your Post about the National Alliance is filled with all sorts of lies, and deceptions. You are trying to say it's run by zog, yet we don't do anything illegal so who cares? Infact if it is that's great if they want to help. What we are is an organization of patriots working together to inform our people of their plite, and we invite them to join in our legal efforts. You focus on money, yet every dollar that goes into the Alliance goes to building the Alliance. You talk about politics, yet you don't seem to understand that we are a media organization which also knows we're not going to get the black and hispanic vote in this current government system. You call us terrorists and claim we have members who are felons, There are very few members of our organization who have ever been involved with crime. You can't join unless you have a clean record. And please explain the terrorist part because no one in our organization has ever been involved in any sort of terrorist activities. We are an organization of winners not loosers. If you were to attend one of our meetings and no one told you who we were, you wouldn't know if you were at a rotory meeting or attending a church group once you meet the great people in our organization, and see the acomplishments we have made. The Vanguard News Network is not part of the National Alliance But- National Vanguard News [url]http://www.nationalvanguard.com[/url] -is About Chester Doles, he was an outstanding member who was with us right up until he was arrested because his wife owned a .22 riffle and Doles had gotten into a fight with a black and won years before he became a member. At that time he was held on a misdemeanor charge and sat in county prison for a year. The law there says if you are in jail for more than a year you are classed as a convicted felon, and felons are not alowed to own guns. He never actually owned a gun. His wife is still a good friend who keeps us informed on how he's doing. "The private corporation structure and Dr. Pierce's explicit policies permanently foreclosed any attempts at participating in civil politics." Right we are not out for your vote "Within the closed cult world of the NA that Day of civil participation and legitimacy always lies somewhere off in an undeterminate future. As with the 'Rapture' the precise timing is unknown, is inherently unknowable, but it is coming Soon. In practice the current corporate leadership's tenure always expires before that Day arrives. 'But it is coming Real Soon. And while you wait, buy cds, books and donate money." What a bunch of freaked out bull shit. We are ordinary people with different views, and what we have in common is we are all working toward the same goals. People join because they want to be with people with similar views "None of the real officers, directors" There are no dictators. If people didn't like what they saw or heard then they wouldn't have anything to do with us. "stockholders or employees of this 'dangerous terrorist group' have ever been arrested. They appear to possess a teflon immunity from police interference, even when they harbor international fugitives like Hendrik Moebus." Maybee that's because they haven't commited any crimes. Hendrik Moebus." never commited a crime either, and that's why we give attention to such people. "The simple method of destroying this 'dangerous terrorist organization', revoking its Virginia corporate charter, has never been used. The lawyers of the Deparment of Justice, the FBI and the ADL have long been aware of National Alliance, Incorporated. It's a matter of public record." Well the NA has never been involved in any crime or conspiracy, BUT the ADL has. Problem is, the Jews are in control of the government, not us, and I'm sure you are on their side or you wouldn't be posting these lies and deceptions in order to block the truth from being known to the people "Chester Doles, the most effective leader outside the NA's corporate structure, was arrested. NA Incorporated first tried to abandon him." An absolute lie. He was in contact with us the whole time until he was arrested. "His defense fund was raised by a revolt among its fans." Another bunch of purposeful slanderist crock "Whether the officers, directors, stockholders or employees of NA Incorporated are conscious agents is really irrelevant. "By their fruits ye shall know them", said one Teacher. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck...." They are all the coolest people you'll ever meet, but if you believe what the Jewish media WHICH WE EXPOSE and this ZOG agent here is saying, then you are about 180 degrees misinformed. Sincerely, 1 Patriot 1 Patriot 2004-02-02 03:38 | User Profile If you read the information here which the Jews have a monopoly on hiding from you, then it will all come clear to you just WHY they are trying to stop us. If Mother Teresa was telling you this, then they would be calling her a "Dangerous Hater" WHITE EDUCATIONAL LINKS NO WAR FOR ISRAEL [url]http://www.nowarforisrael.com[/url] The American led War against Iraq is a Jewish Led War National Alliance [url]http://www.natall.com[/url] Toward a New Consciousness: a New Order: a New People National Vanguard Books: [url]http://www.natvan.com[/url] Over 600 Books, Tapes, and Videos that the Jewish Controlled Media doesn't want you to see National Vanguard News [url]http://www.nationalvanguard.com[/url] News for People of White European descent Listen To: American Dissident Voices [url]http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio[/url] A weekly Informational, and Educational Program for People of White European Descent - A gold mine of knowledge WHO RULES AMERICA: (Documented Facts) [url]http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america[/url] Exposing the Alien Grip on Our News and Entertainment Media Disney and the Jews [url]http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs959a.html[/url] Walt Disney the man is not the Disney of today. Jews have slowly taken control of the Hollywood and Movie industries durring the past 70 years, and this is the reason WHY you are seeing such degeneracy on TV these days Listen to: "How It Fits Together [url]http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/ts/070602.mp3[/url] Download, Listen and Learn how and why Jews do what they do, and why their domination of our society is so destructive to our very existance The ADL: America's Greatest Enemy [url]http://www.natvan.com/american-dissident-voices/adv052993.html[/url] A secret Israeli espionage and "dirty tricks" agency operating with impunity in communities across the United State GUN CONTROL: Not what it seems [url]http://www.natvan.com/american-dissident-voices/adv012994.html[/url] There is a great temperamental and ideological divide between those who believe in self-defense and those who believe in surrendering and begging for mercy. What Is Racism? [url]http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs953c.html[/url] A speech by Dr. William Luther Pierce Institute for Historical Review [url]http://www.ihr.org[/url] Uncovering true history, and exposing the lies made by the multi-million$$$ dollar "Holocaust" industry Political Prisoner [url]http://www.freechesterdoles.com[/url] The Freedom of American Citizen Chester Doles will be the Deciding factor for the Freedom of All of Us Political Prisoner [url]http://www.zundelsite.org[/url] Who is Ernst Zundel? and Why is he in jail for Free Speech? JEWISH SUPREMACY EXPOSED [url]http://www.davidduke.org[/url] David Duke tears the mask off the real supremacists, and provides a gold mine of facts on Jews and Race. "Jewish Supremacism" is also in the National Vanguard Books catalog [url]http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_main.html[/url] Truth Tellers [url]http://www.truthtellers.org[/url] Learn how "Anti-Speech" and "Anti-Hate" Laws make Prisoners of Christians, and You're next on their list !!! JEW WATCH [url]http://jewwatch.com[/url] Learn Here about Jews & Jewish Organizations, Criminals, and Jewish Corruption Worldwide RESISTANCE RECORDS: [url]http://www.resistance.com[/url] The Voice of Our Racialy Aware White Youth. Want to know what racialists realy think? Well get on the "Board" and ask us a few questions, or just view the posts Bardamu 2004-02-02 03:39 | User Profile National Vanguard is way too good to be a false flag operation. [url]http://www.nationalvanguard.org/[/url] Now VNN's discussion forum... What an embarrassment. That is what a black media op would look like. Sertorius 2004-02-02 04:22 | User Profile False flag (I doubt this) or not, I know this. They have a damn good book selection. Okiereddust 2004-02-02 07:11 | User Profile Seems to me I saw this article posted here before, but right now I can't locate it with this new-fangled search engine. ;) Kevin_O'Keeffe 2004-02-02 07:32 | User Profile "4. Chester Doles, the most effective leader outside the NA's corporate structure, was arrested. NA Incorporated first tried to abandon him. His defense fund was raised by a revolt among its fans." This second sentence is patently and demonstrably false; the National Alliance was very active in assisting Mr. Doles and his family, as they have already attested. The fact that some others were also assisting them is great, but it (obviously) in no way constitutes evidence that the National Alliance had attempted to "abandon" Mr. Doles. Its very instructive that the purveyor of these lies has to hind behind the "Colonel MacGregor" alias. What speculative, unfounded, nonsensical drivel. Okiereddust 2004-02-02 10:22 | User Profile [QUOTE=Okiereddust]Seems to me I saw this article posted here before, but right now I can't locate it with this new-fangled search engine. ;)[/QUOTE] Here's the previous thread. [url=http://forums.originaldissent.com/showthread.php?t=8489&highlight=National+Alliance]National Alliance: A ZOG False Flag? (Posted by Tsun)[/url] BTW, I've clarified my thinking on this somewhat. It is pretty far-fetched (although not inconceivable) that the NA is a bona-fide false front, ther is a possibility that they could have, in their own National Socialist way, started to yield to pressure from their persecutors and chanfe their tactics somewhat. Emphasizing literature over establishment of local chapters probably could have been one such concession, as could be measures differentiating it from other WN groups like the Klan, such as its anti-Christian stance. (Quite possibly these measures were taken to reduce the possibility of being included in Dees originated vicarious liability lawsuits, instigated upon some boneheaded violant acts by CI's). Bardamu 2004-02-02 13:03 | User Profile [QUOTE=Okiereddust]It is pretty far-fetched (although not inconceivable) that the NA is a bona-fide false front, ther is a possibility that they could have, in their own National Socialist way, started to yield to pressure from their persecutors and chanfe their tactics somewhat. [/QUOTE] Yielding to pressure is not the definition of false front. Okiereddust 2004-02-02 17:06 | User Profile [QUOTE=Bardamu]Yielding to pressure is not the definition of false front.[/QUOTE] Actually it could be. It's a matter of opinion and degree. If you yield so much as to be forfeiting your sovereignty, i.e. your basic autonomy and right to determine your own organization's direction, it certainly is becoming one. But I personally at those moment don't think it is completely necessary for this to have happenned in the case of the NA. I.e. I don't think the organization has to be purely a Mossad front, and that the Jewish leadership has to be completely comfortable with its existance and the way its going. But what I think is a possibility is that the ADL and gov't might have figured out a way to control the WN movement the way the communists in Russia controlled the Church. Although ideologically they were dead set against the continuing existance of any Churches, they figured out it was better if they left a small, closely watched and heavily infiltrated remnant Church, as long as the Church was institutionally, organizationally, and attitudally set up in such a way it was completely neutralized and impotent. The NA certainly appears to have some of the signs to me of such inherent ineffectiveness and malaise, such as their in their dcision to organize as a for-profit corporation and thus eschew political activity. Ditto VNN. There was never any possibility for the NA to progress beyond media operations into becoming a civil and political leadership cadre. The National Alliance, Incorporated collectively can no more participate in direct local politics than can Texaco or IBM. The corporation laws of the State of Virginia debar this. Beyond this it has no existence at local levels and cannot operate without registering to do business in each area. Because of this eschewal of political participation the National Alliance has directed the pro-white movement up a blind alley. golfball 2004-02-02 17:19 | User Profile When White oriented organizations act in professional a manner, they do not attack other Pro-White organizations. It just is not so. Here is where we find the [B][COLOR=Red]agent provocateur[/COLOR][/B] at work. Creating dissension and division amongst Pro-White organizations. As I read the threads on these forums, it becomes plain to see who supports White concerns and interests, and who denigrates other groups to cause division and dissension. Sometimes saying "We are all on the same side, we just share different faith" does not make connection, or is not allowed to. The presence of [B][COLOR=Red]agent provocateur[/COLOR][/B] makes for an almost impossible force through cohesive effort. It would be well for so called "Pro-White" organizations to not cut down other Pro-White efforts. That does nothing but look bad. Centinel 2004-02-02 20:01 | User Profile [QUOTE=AntiYuppie]A Federal/ADL front would be manned by intentionally uncouth low-lives and its pages would be filled with illiterate rants filled with racial slurs and no information.[/QUOTE] Something along the lines of VNN? Angler 2004-02-02 20:07 | User Profile I agree with AY. I'm not a member of the NA and never have been one; but at least from the outside it appears that they are sincere. And I have very little doubt that Dr. Pierce was genuine, even though I don't necessarily agree with everything he espoused. It wouldn't make sense for a false front to do too good of a job at concealing their true nature by actually making good arguments for the pro-white cause. A Jew-sponsored false front is not going to risk inadvertently waking up more whites just for the sake of keeping their cover. If the NA were truly a false front, they'd deliberately make themselves look like buffoons, just as the mainstream media tends to limit its interviews with pro-white activists to those who are unbathed, missing teeth, obese, and -- above all -- lacking in the brains department. Angler 2004-02-02 20:13 | User Profile [QUOTE=Centinel]Something along the lines of VNN?[/QUOTE] LOL! I actually considered saying that myself, but didn't. I will admit to indulging in VNN once in a while as a guilty pleasure, as I do find a lot of Linder's remarks to be quite funny. Do I really think VNN is a false front? Hell, no -- that site provides too many good links to offsite news reports and articles that, when explored over time, tend to paint a "big picture" of what the Jews are up to. I can certainly understand people being suspicious about Linder and his "DEATH TO THE JEWS" approach, but I do believe he's sincere. What Linder needs to realize is that while there's nothing wrong with naming the Jew per se, there are better ways to do it than to unleash a torrent of profanity and seething hatred every time you open your mouth. madrussian 2004-02-02 20:40 | User Profile One important property of a false flag operation must be kooky conspiracy theory rants. VNN is to the point and simple as far as their ideology is concerned. The UFO are us and similar web sites are much more suspect and damaging to the image as far as I am concerned. Everyone has seen and thought about things that VNN is writing about. It resonates with the basic instincts. Ragnar 2004-02-02 22:47 | User Profile [QUOTE=madrussian] Everyone has seen and thought about things that VNN is writing about. It resonates with the basic instincts.[/QUOTE] True and the last half-year has resolved some of this too. Since we last were on this subject, the Linder-White blowup occurred at VNN, which proved it was a real -- if perhaps too human -- organization. What with Moran's departure and White's gyrations, VNN's readership went into the dumper. No way a slick operator would have let that happen to a real false flag operation. Valley Forge 2004-02-02 22:59 | User Profile I find it suspicious that the NA chose to set itself up as a private, for profit corporation. Is VNN a for profit enterprise too? Ragnar 2004-02-02 23:00 | User Profile [QUOTE=Okiereddust]But what I think is a possibility is that the ADL and gov't might have figured out a way to control the WN movement the way the communists in Russia controlled the Church.[/QUOTE] They sort of admitted this. The silent treatment is a method of control. Jewish groups have never for a moment denied they marginalize and push people like Dr. Pierce out of the public debate. As a method of control this is near-perfect as far as the white majority is concerned. The only whites that even know the WN movement exists (aside from Hollywood-cartoon nazis) will be those who make a fairly good effort on their own part to seek it out. This strategy rules out all but a few (geniuses and nuts, for the most part.) Since white lethargy is always a given, keeping the political structure and mass media doing what it's doing is all the other side has to do. Maintenance is easier than creation. Broad-based white movements along the lines of the Klan in the 1920s has not been possible since... well, the 1920s. Without vigorous public debate it simply is not possible. Okiereddust 2004-02-03 00:47 | User Profile [QUOTE=AntiYuppie]I also think that VNN is the genuine article. While some of the rants there do indeed seem like perfect material for an ADL plant, the fact that Linder always links his diatribes to news stories (often from "mainstream" sources) allows the reader to put the pieces together himself. The linked stories often speak for themselves (unwittingly) about Jewry and the Coloreds. Why would a false front set up by the Feds or the ADL go through such an effort? The documentation only makes VNN and its case look better in the eyes of the reader. [/QUOTE] Genuine article of what? I agree that they, like the NA, seem to have a genuine National Socialist line of sorts (although the NA is a lot more serious sounding). What I'd question is if their NS rigidity really has anything to offer conservative, white America as a whole. Even from a NS standpoint they seem to have a sort of curious way of doing business if they're trying to create the political success they so seek after. Just because they aren't an out and out false front operation doesn't mean they are competently led or make any sort of reasonable accounting in terms of results of the resources they receive. That of course can be said about a god percentage of other non-profits. When you give your money, or donate your time, to an organization, who are you really giving it to, and what are you getting. It strikes me that the general thrust Mr. Tsun makes about the NA's ineffectiveness is true, even if he may go a little overboard in accusing it of being an out and out false front. Their organization and tactics seem to make it quite likely it and VNN are as Mr. Tsun says, nothing but a media organization which may in fact have set up a subtle symbiosis with the mainstream press which it uses to stay at the top of the WN heap. The point about Chester Doles seems very well taken. If WN is going to succeed in this country it will be through the Chester Doles of this country, and the NA's headquarters apathy toward the Doles and other local efforts is quite revealing and damning if it is as Mr. Tsun says it is. madrussian 2004-02-03 01:48 | User Profile It's a war of attrition and any fight against ZOG will be a war of thousand cuts in the beginning. Before ZOG is weakened enough and people are emboldened enough to organize and speak up more effectively. VNN has its small role in this fight. Whether they have anything to offer "conservative white America" is beside the point. One convert at a time, and they've made, or set on a path, quite a few. golfball 2004-02-03 02:26 | User Profile [QUOTE=Ragnar] ................. Broad-based white movements along the lines of the Klan in the 1920s has not been possible since... well, the 1920s. Without vigorous public debate it simply is not possible.[/QUOTE] Public debate is NOT what makes the Klan. Christianity is. Jews know this and so do negroes and other non-whites. This is why they pushed the integration of the races so hard, to destroy the Christian church and place pro-communist despots in the pulpits of churches along with government pressure for churches to step away from a God of Segregation. This what has lead to the decline of White American values and the Klan. But before the government (Marshall Court - 1954) was allowed to push integration, (i.e. Eisenhower) there was a movement to destroy the Segregationist Churches by the so called "God is Love and God loves everyone" crap. Everytime I see that John 3:16 being used to justify integration and racial amalgamation, I see Jews and their father at work destroying the lives and souls of those that follow after foolishness. They and their children will ultimately find out that our God is a God of Segregation, JUST AS THE BIBLE SAYS. God separates, God segregates. Fools and the damned integrate. Only foolish men and women go against thy Holy God of Segregation and use the name of Jesus Christ to lead the ignorant to racial amalgamation and damnation. They will suffer the wrath of God for this thing. It is an everlasting wrath. The rise of Judeo-Christianity and the Apostate church has been the primary downfall of White Christian civilization and the Klan, not debate or lack there of. Ragnar 2004-02-03 03:11 | User Profile [QUOTE=golfball]Public debate is NOT what makes the Klan. Christianity is. [/QUOTE] My point was that in the Roaring Twenties, a free press and for that matter free association hadn't been eroded to the point where a tiny number of media barons (might as well call 'em commissars) decide literally everything the public sees, hears and debates. Organizations were able to take their case to the public. Not only the Klan and political groups. Even the old Knights of Labor had daily papers in major newspapers to offset the corporate press. Nothing like that now. Under current conditions even National Review conservatism wouldn't have gotten off the ground. Okiereddust 2004-02-03 04:26 | User Profile [QUOTE=Ragnar]They sort of admitted this. The silent treatment is a method of control. Jewish groups have never for a moment denied they marginalize and push people like Dr. Pierce out of the public debate. As a method of control this is near-perfect as far as the white majority is concerned. The only whites that even know the WN movement exists (aside from Hollywood-cartoon nazis) will be those who make a fairly good effort on their own part to seek it out. This strategy rules out all but a few (geniuses and nuts, for the most part.) Since white lethargy is always a given, keeping the political structure and mass media doing what it's doing is all the other side has to do. Maintenance is easier than creation. Broad-based white movements along the lines of the Klan in the 1920s has not been possible since... well, the 1920s. Without vigorous public debate it simply is not possible.[/QUOTE] I don't really know if all your complaining is justified. True, it is difficult, but there are opportunities. People like Jared Taylor do in fact appear on TV quite a bit, and books that subtly push the moderate WN line, like The Bell Curve and Pat Buchanan's books do quite fine. Any shriller than that of course though and you're consigned to the dim corners of the internet and other alternative media. Which means if you adopt that tone you're going to have to have some sort of grassroots organizing strategy to get the word and troops out. That's where the NA and VNN seem so impotent - like any old time preacher who rails hellfire and damnation to his small flock of the faithful in their little gatherings every Sunday morning and is basically content at that. Whether their ineffectiveness is just due to incomptence or something more maelovelent of course can never be fuly known. But I do suspect agents deliberately, and very skillfully, try to feed bad information and advice to the bona-fide members of the organization. Often, when you take a hard look at the organizations achievements, the success at somebody in manipulating things is quite evident. Kevin_O'Keeffe 2004-02-03 08:28 | User Profile "If WN is going to succeed in this country it will be through the Chester Doles of this country, and the NA's headquarters apathy toward the Doles and other local efforts is quite revealing and damning if it is as Mr. Tsun says it is." That's the point; it isn't. The National Office was very supportive of the Doles family, as they have attested. Okiereddust 2004-04-17 20:05 | User Profile See [url=http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_philosophy&Number=1421306&page=&view=&sb=&o=&part=1&vc=1&t=-1]The National Alliance, Incorporated: A ZOG False Flag Combat Cell? - Liberty Forum Thread[/url] for Newswatcher & Co's take on this. wild_bill 2004-04-17 21:23 | User Profile [QUOTE=Bardamu]If anybody is a Fed it is Bill White. This is all a ploy to destroy the NA. Who is the new guy on the block? The fact that NA is a for profit company signifies nothing so far as a False Flag operation goes.[/QUOTE] As I recall the NA had their non-profit exemption revoked due to ADL pressure. Kevin_O'Keeffe 2004-04-18 04:52 | User Profile [QUOTE=wild_bill]As I recall the NA had their non-profit exemption revoked due to ADL pressure.[/QUOTE] The National Alliance fought for years to obtain tax-free status as an educational foundation (which is what they, in point of fact, actually are, and are thus duly entitled to that status) but the Feds never approved it at any stage of the process. They lost in court, but not because the legal facts weren't on their side, but simply because the courts won't issue a decision the Jews don't like. Davey Crockett 2004-05-02 18:09 | User Profile [QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]"If WN is going to succeed in this country it will be through the Chester Doles of this country, and the NA's headquarters apathy toward the Doles and other local efforts is quite revealing and damning if it is as Mr. Tsun says it is." That's the point; it isn't. The National Office was very supportive of the Doles family, as they have attested.[/QUOTE] The National Alliance is only supporting Chester Doles because they can get some mileage out of him. What about the hundreds of other whites who are being locked up on false charges of ethnic intimidation? I was locked up for two days for ethnic intimidation. There is no basis for the charge and I asked National Alliance for some help. They told me to cut up my membership card because of my "illegal activities." Never mind that no evidence has been presented yet and the charges are being fabricated by political hacks working for the City of Detroit. The National Alliance was never interested in hearing my side or defending me. All they are after is my monthly dues of $10.00 and for me to over glorify them. The National Alliance is either a front created to siphon our efforts and money, or a group of opportunists using our plight as a way to make money. If you disagree with my opinion, just look at their track record. Name another organization with the same amount of support over the last 30 years that showed worse results. I can't. Valley Forge 2004-05-02 21:25 | User Profile Even though I've admired Dr. Pierce's writings for years (his ignorant anti-Christian babblings aside), I've always been ambivalent about the NA itself. On the one hand, the NA is only pro-White group I've ever seriously considered joining. On the other hand, however, I don't think I will ever give them my money -- I've seen too many credible posts on the Internet detailing what appears to be extensive corruption and incompetence within the new, post-Dr. Pierce NA.