← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · weisbrot
Thread ID: 12082 | Posts: 22 | Started: 2004-01-30
2004-01-30 17:29 | User Profile
I saw a CSPAN replay very early today wherein Brokaw was asking- in his role of debate moderator- what candidate Wesley Clark's view was of the importance of the "separation of church and state". Clark replied that he had been religious, that he had grown up going to church, that he had prayed, "and" (I quote), "...all that stuff." Then he went into a little homily about how all the poor Jewish kids sitting around him in his class had undoubtedly been offended by the Bible class he had been taught in elementary school. He ended up with a declaration that no one in America should be offended, that as President it would be his job to "defend" people of all faiths and that um, yes that "separation" was a good thing. Big grin.
I contrast that shallow display of a vapor-locked morality with Gibson's responses to Noonan, who in an earlier piece in the WSJ had implied that "antisemitism" is the greatest evil that exists in the world. Gibson must have had Noonan's thoroughly neoconservative ideology in mind, but still replied courageously, it seems, to Noonans questions.
In the right context, say, the full article, Noonan's questions could actually indicate that she is coming around a bit on the topic, and that she's giving Gibson some room. But his direct reply seems straight-up no matter the motivation behind the question. And his refusal to abandon his father and his father's beliefs is most admirable.
Clark's tossout about all that "stuff" is beneath contempt. Gibson's bravery in the face of the enemy is remarkable. This film will open many opportunities to converse with the NFL-watching couch spuds and the Gucci-bagged soccer moms we all know on a topic many of them might have avoided in the past.
[url]http://www.nypost.com/gossip/liz.htm[/url]
January 30, 2004 -- 'YOU'RE GOING to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" Peggy Noonan asks of Mel Gibson in the Reader's Digest for March.
Gibson: "I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
Gibson sat down with conservative Catholic writer Noonan to speak of his controversial film, "The Passion of the Christ," to explain his faith - which he says became a strong force in his life after years of being "a monster," having become "spiritually bankrupt" in the thrall of success. And Gibson admits his spiritual life is "nowhere complete yet. I'm still so full of flaws." Noonan pushed him about the Holocaust because of accusations that the actor's father questions the attempted extermination of all Jews by Hitler. Of his dad, Gibson says, "My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me. The man never lied to me in his life."
Gibson talks eloquently about his passion for "The Passion," the gospel and what he wants to do next - "something light and funny and nobody'll be angry at me!"
Noonan: "Give me the headline you want to see on the biggest paper in America the day after 'The Passion' opens."
Gibson: "War Ends."
2004-01-30 19:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=weisbrot]Gibson sat down with conservative Catholic writer Noonan to speak of his controversial film, "The Passion of the Christ," to explain his faith - which he says became a strong force in his life after years of being "a monster," having become "spiritually bankrupt" in the thrall of success.[/QUOTE]
Nothing short of miraculous how God can work in individual lives to shape men and women who come to the fore and rise up to lead at just the time it is needed. Amidst all the cultural and spiritual muck, I think sometimes we can become too short-sighted and lose perspective on the big picture and who has ultimate control. I know I do.
With regards to Clark, I continue to be amazed at the perpetuation of the "separation of church and state" myth that has taken such a firm hold on everyone's perspective here in this country. No doubt, the big lie among many, many other lies we have built around our national life.
2004-01-30 19:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE=weisbrot]
[url]http://www.nypost.com/gossip/liz.htm[/url]
January 30, 2004 -- 'YOU'RE GOING to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" Peggy Noonan asks of Mel Gibson in the Reader's Digest for March.
Gibson: "I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
[/QUOTE]
Perfect response. Love the little tidbit about the Ukrainians and Russians.
2004-01-30 19:25 | User Profile
Atrocities happened. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that statement. He didn't pay any homage to "The Holocaust".
2004-01-30 19:50 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian]Atrocities happened. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that statement. He didn't pay any homage to "The Holocaust".[/QUOTE]
From the usual suspects:
I have seen this so many times. "Yeah yeah some bad things happened to the Jews but the Soviets (wink wink) killed millions more."
Some people I respect have defended Gibson's film so I have a totally open mind about it, and will judge it when I see it.
I am far less impressed with Gibson's cynical PR campaign, and his less-than-convincing defense of his own lack of anti-semtism. His father is on record as a Holocaust denier...
41 posted on 01/30/2004 10:09:16 AM PST by veronica **
[URL=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1068385/posts?page=41#41]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1068385/posts?page=41#41[/URL]
2004-01-30 19:59 | User Profile
If you don't have zhids screaming "anti-semite", then you do something wrong.
2004-01-30 20:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Recluse]I am far less impressed with Gibson's cynical PR campaign, and his less-than-convincing defense of his own lack of anti-semtism. His father is on record as a Holocaust denier...
41 posted on 01/30/2004 10:09:16 AM PST by veronica ** [/QUOTE]
Keep it up, veronica. The subversive jewish supremacists are in a very difficult position with this film. Believe me, they want to go after Gibson hard, but the more they do the greater the potential backlash from the Christians they are trying to keep deceived. Let us hope that veronica and her ilk cannot control their natural tendencies.
2004-01-30 20:25 | User Profile
Let's hope that the premier anti-semite factory Freak Republik is replicated globally with a global success.
I've been saying all along, that to create "anti-semites" zhids only need to speak up and be open about what they feel and think.
2004-01-31 01:43 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian]If you don't have zhids screaming "anti-semite", then you do something wrong.[/QUOTE]
I believe dear ol' Uncle Adolf said something to the effect that if der Jude isn't screaming for your blood every day, you've failed.
2004-01-31 03:57 | User Profile
[I]Am I missing something? We are discussing a movie, made by a man who grew up in a Jew-hating home, that shows the Jews killing Christ. What's more, I see message after message on this board by people who express fear that the movie might be "watered down," in other words that the responsibility of the Jews might be lessened.
It would be one thing if any of this were actual provable historical fact, but it is not. It is slander. There is no real evidence it ever even happened. Gibson is supposedly justified in showing the Jews killing Christ because certain people BELIEVE that it happened. Apparently no one is obligated to PROVE that it actually happened before making this vile accusation.
254 posted on 01/30/2004 7:16:31 PM PST by Inyokern[/I]
Where do you stand, white man?
Can it be any more obvious that nothing makes vampires flee in horror more than the sign of the Cross?
2004-01-31 05:05 | User Profile
Why would Mel Gibson get asked about the so-called Holocau$t (define "holocaust") in the first place? Has he ever spoken about it? No. His father allegedly has. No one should be held accountable for what a family member allegedly said or did. Noonan was obviously trying to ingratiate herself with her paymasters.
The effrontery of the Jews has no limits! Christians should't be allowed to quote their own holy texts in a movie about the Passion of Christ?
People should see this movie at least once, and make it a huge success. This will undoubtedly infuriate the Special People.
2004-01-31 14:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE=friedrich braun] People should see this movie at least once, and make it a huge success. This will undoubtedly infuriate the Special People.[/QUOTE]
I'll buy a ticket and then go to the arboretum.
2004-02-01 02:37 | User Profile
I wouldn't be surprised if by 2030, some portion of our tax money goes to every person in America who is a "Holocaust survivor" (and not the ones who lived through the war). Considering the on-going failure of the half-baked "reparations" movement by Negroes, unfortunately the Chosen's movement will be bought lock, stock and barrel.
2004-02-01 03:57 | User Profile
I am a non believer and I wasent even thinking of going to see that muvie but thanks to the Zionist Jews now I do want to see it...... by the way, the Jews did not kill Jesus but 3 of their Rabbis passed judgement on him and turn him over to the Romans in order for them to kill him....... as usual they have someone else do their dirty work.
2004-02-01 05:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ponce]...... by the way, the Jews did not kill Jesus but 3 of their Rabbis passed judgement on him and turn him over to the Romans in order for them to kill him.......[/QUOTE]
That don't work. If they arranged someone else to make the hit, it's still them that's culpable. Of course Pontuis Pilate deserves a lot of the blame for being a wussy.
In a Medieval "Everyman" play, Pilate's death at sea is mocked by sailors. As Pilate goes down for the third time, the sailors shout, "Die, thou stinkard!"
Everyone should get a copy of the Everyman plays. :king:
2004-02-01 06:14 | User Profile
It seems that with all the hell he's been catching Mr. Gibson has turned into a stronger man. This is [I]extremely[/I] rare for a Hollywood actor, much less a high profile one. It's amazing what adversity can do for the human spirit. Most, of course, give up or sell out but some act heroically. Let's hope he sticks to his guns.
2004-02-01 06:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Europe Endless] This is [I]extremely[/I] rare for a Hollywood actor, much less a high profile one. [/QUOTE]
Yup, Mel Gibson is true to his own philosophy, which is almost unheard of in actors. Hell, even having a philosophy is nearly unheard of in actors. Lets face it, the post-Renaissance view of thespians as worthless trash, spiritually, is 99% accurate. MG is a one percenter.
2004-02-01 13:34 | User Profile
This entire Gibson thing -- Braveheart Defeating Longshanks in rabbi garb, again -- actually goes against the over-all to clean out the indigestible, rancid fat in America's national post-Reagan discourse.
Why didn't "Peggy" use her opportunity of getting it on with MG to clarify this, I wonder?
[B]"[/B] PEGGY NOONAN
'Passion' and Intrigue The story of the Vatican and Mel Gibson's film gets curiouser.
Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST
On the matter of the pope, "The Passion" and the famous papal quote, you are perhaps perplexed. You are not alone. This is a story marked by, among other things, a certain amount of intrigue, and some of it is like something out of "The DaVinci Code."
My Dec. 17 column reported that Pope John Paul II had seen Mel Gibson's movie on the crucifixion of Christ, "The Passion," and had offered a judgment on it: "It is as it was." The quote came from the film's producer, Steve McEveety, who told me that it was given to him by the pope's longtime private secretary, Archbishop Stanislau Dziwisz.[B]"[/B]
Did Mel Gibson even think he was trying to make a movie that would "show it as it was"? -- as opposed to splashing borderline soft-port bloody jeezus head across the Big Picture Screen he knows the sheeple will shell out the buck$ to see. So that, like good Greek theater-goers everywhere, the herd can graze fondly on the source of their beloved eternal soul's salvation, then criticize the acting and defend the charade against anti-semitism. If there seems to be something out of joint in this pictue, it isn't ( submit) in you. It's in the picture itself, and here is what it is.
Gibson's hyper condensation of the message of the light of two millenia, if the Christ in Jesus was that, into 24 hours; the compression of those 24 hours into 2-3 hours; the signature lead-in trailor to that condensed into the one word, "Passion". This is equivalent to dumping a wad of bloody MAd Cow cud into the pre-digestive track of American Christian communications. It fuels the fire that burns the oxygen the Spirit requires to nourish the blood of the soul.
Yes, it raises the lust-for-lust, spiritualized iby each in the way they must
calling up the freonic frisson between Judaophobics :yes: and the ADL
...and this is not just spiritual, but metaphysical ....
But in the end, when day is done (as if... )
the carcass of a bled-out, vacated human anatomical shell. on the Big Screen only Hollywood knows how to fill, will be seen waved above the heads of the awed audience, recoiling like terrified children in sunken padded seats below.
I do not think it is Holy. I think it uses contemporary state-of-the art hi-tech movie.filmmaking to create political braying on the haunches of dead christ. There is no more need for Gibson's twitchy jeezus flick that there was for JAWS JEW Jonah, raiding the Lost Ark, swiping Schindler's List and Saving :rivate Ryan, something fishy about Speilberg and ET's all along (I'm sounding like Van Impe! -- it's OK. As professor, I often defended him as having a degree of spiritual discernment many other's lacked, though limited, itself, imho.) Aren't Gibson and Speilberg two sides of the same coin? -- neither of which (side) can be spent for nourishment?
An this at a time when the deep Christian soul in all having it literally cries out for such nurishment -- Something .. in the milk they are being fed. This constant analogy between cultural content of communication, and blood flow in the sickened Mother organism, rigidifying and breaking the vessels from lack of Vitamin E vasodilator equivalent. (see my previous posts for references.) is based on the theory that, metaphysically, "diet" is intake-digested-output process in the organism proceeding at three different functionally cordinated levels: material (=conversion of molecules (proteins) into cell-part -- solid food required); emotional (=conversion of co-ordinated movements of the physical body into pleasure-filled, enoyable things in life -- as oxygen is taken throught he lungs from air for the blood; and spiritual (=conversion of lower, primary-process arousal ("passion") into knowledge, and energy for sustained accomplishments -- requiring ambient "Christ-" particles, as oxygens in the flow of ambient sign-uses to redden the soul's blue blood. That is whaat the red, white and blue mean. taken together: White stands for Light, Blue stands for the sky in the blood vessels; red is the color of the vital liquid exposed to air. Those are deep meanings whether desigers of the U.S. flag understood them or not. There are always residual, spill-over effects when the Spirit in the Blood is made into Spoken Word.
"Boy, you are going to carry that weight a long time." If there is any time left. Systemic breakdown at all functional levels -- non-conversion of porteins into living biological cell; non-conversion of tittilating stream of pleasing fantasy stimuli into real feelings; and non-converstion of lust (great as it is) into lust for all life is, completed from the outside by development
usign communication, would bring almost immediate cessation of function, notably characterized by hypoxic brain disintegration.
: confronting the cause of American Mad Cow (=goyim = Christian/Muslim = Jewish "Mother"-containers, whom they hate as fetuses hate the Poisoned Placenta).... --Not fueling it. Not daring to use up the oxygen needed for the white blue flame of deep Christianity. Mel Gibson is standing too close to that. He should now remove himself Aussie land, forever. Down under, where Murdoch is Sky King. Cell-mates, making wrongly-folded, indigestable, misshapen protein-Sign-use strings in blood/communication, killing the flame in the soul that ignites the fire in the belly.
2004-02-01 19:16 | User Profile
Obviously, as a Christian, I'd go see the "Passion" regardless of who was in it or how much the ADL yips.
But one concern I do have is the fact Gibson is doing this with $50M in the bank already. I'm not going to assail him, of all people, but I do wonder if he would risk his career as a nobody.
It's easy to be courageous (in any aspect of your life) when you have unlimited cash already. I do hold a bit more reverence for guys who hold the line, when they have everythign to lose.
-Jay
ps: and of course, Gibson is now my favorite actor by far.
2004-02-01 19:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Recluse]From the usual suspects:
I have seen this so many times. "Yeah yeah some bad things happened to the Jews but the Soviets (wink wink) killed millions more."
Some people I respect have defended Gibson's film so I have a totally open mind about it, and will judge it when I see it.
I am far less impressed with Gibson's cynical PR campaign, and his less-than-convincing defense of his own lack of anti-semtism. His father is on record as a Holocaust denier...
41 posted on 01/30/2004 10:09:16 AM PST by veronica **
[URL=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1068385/posts?page=41#41]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1068385/posts?page=41#41[/URL][/QUOTE]
The excelent public relation that Gibson is getting for "The Passion" is thanks to the Zionist Jews and no one else. Gibson could have paid 50 million bucks for a PR campaing and in no way it would have been as good as the one that the Jews are giving him for free. As far as his "lack" of anti-semitism? he feels the same way as I do, and that is, SO WHAT? Oive, Oive, Holocaust, Holocaust, give me money, give me money, poor me, poor me.
2004-02-06 18:39 | User Profile
I am an atheist, but I will go to see Gibsonââ¬â¢s movie because:
I hope and expect that it will be well made and well directed. I expect it to be historically accurate.
I believe these things ââ¬âapart from Gibsonââ¬â¢s talents and commitments- because a well made, historically accurate theatrical rendering of the conditions surrounding the death of Jesus will need to illustrate the hatred and fanaticism that lies at the core of Judaism, which is the kind of thing that would cause the fear and anger amongst Jews that is now evident: Jewish organizations are telling me that this is a good movie.
If one casts their imagination back into the ancient lands of the Jews, following the many narratives that have been served up in popular works, one can see many things to indicate the political and religious divisions in those times. But the true face of Judaism ââ¬âits essence- is never shown. That essence is a megalomaniacal bigotry and ethnocentric hate, deluded and fixated on its own importance to the exclusion of all other values and concerns, that amounts to a genuine insanity. It has become muted in the majority of Jews spread across the earth ââ¬âa necessary condition for it to survive- but this amounts to little more than a sublimation of the essence itself, which has survived.
Even so, the very insanity and mind-boggling arrogance that lies at the core of the Jewish tribe can still be witnessed undiminished in the ultra-orthodox community in Israel now. This is the community of fanatics that slavered in rage and called for the death of Jesus, a member of their own community who called upon them to transcend themselves and take the next spiritual step in the evolution of humanity.
Below is a link to an organization in Israel that seeks to constrain the ultra-orthodox. Under the title Shocking but True, you can find reports of these fanatics attacking a woman who used her electric wheelchair on the Sabbath, members of the Knesset calling for the expulsion or extermination of Reform Jewry, and Rabbis slinging human excrement at synagogues. If we were allowed to see this, the images that Gibson will portray in the Passion would not be at all controversial; and we would have a much better understanding of Judaism as a whole. The essence survives, and is bound to nothing but its own tribe.
What I am beginning to see in Judaism is not that there are ultra-orthodox fanatics and Jews in favor of assimilation or universal rights, but a composite entity that is in a perpetual state of dynamic tension within itself, like the left brain talking to the right brain ââ¬âas a culture, this is but one brain that cannot allow itself to see itself as just one entity amongst others. The other brains are the other cultures and peoples of the world, who, amongst the Jews, are collectively the [I]other [/I] ââ¬âthe gentilesââ¬â all of which are lesser in value and significance.
This culture needs to be exposed, opposed, and confined or destroyed. The linkage between the Jewish lobby in the US and Israel is such that the world can have no peace, nor take the next step to develop a balanced agenda to salvage this planet, and Israel must me made to die or survive on its own. Considering the critical support that Zionism receives from dispensationalist and millenarian Christians, one step in this direction can be Gibsonââ¬â¢s portrayal of the fanaticism in the slayers of the evangel.
[url]http://www.hemdat.org/expelled.htm[/url]
2004-02-07 00:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Gibson: I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union.[/QUOTE]
This is indeed a perfect answer given present political reality; as perfect as can be made by a public figure, who, though resourceful and wealthy, is badly outgunned by people who command monetary and political capital poised to crucify him. Fortunately, their control over public opinion is not total. In fact, depending on the subject, it can be quite dicey and few things are as galling as meddling with one's religion. So itââ¬â¢s a game, not unlike politics, where they exaggerate, obfuscate and bait him while he counters with historical accuracy and a sense of duty to further the words of his Lord. How they must hate him with a passion.
Gibson: "I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms.
He knows people and people who know people!
ââ¬ÅThe guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France.ââ¬Â
The guy (grandfather) who taught me chess -- but not poker, despite many pleadings -- also worked in a work camp, or if you prefer [I]konzentration lager[/I] in Osterreich. Some people there were rude and of course the ubiquitous ââ¬Åschnell!ââ¬Â was tiresome, but the experience was hardly life-defining. The chow too left something to be desired but being a superb poker player he found means to make up some of the worst deficiencies. Most imprinting event: losing to a Frenchman in the final round of a poker tournament where different ethnic groups selected their champion to uphold their nationsââ¬â¢ honor.
ââ¬ÅYes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible.ââ¬Â
Yet more gratuitous revelations! Shows restraint and copes remarkably well given that heââ¬â¢s forced to resort to a level of conversation best had with six-year-olds.
ââ¬ÅThe Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps.ââ¬Â
Restates the obvious, but makes plain that Jews were but one group to be aversely impacted. Though a rudimentary concept it is not always apparent, especially to those who learn by associating casualty numbers with memorials, museums and volume of media coverage. The War killed people, including people situated in camps, but there is no attempt to get into numbers, methodology of killing, or even who did the killing. What does the scorecard read for each of Zyklon B, firing squads, diseases, starvation, 8th Air force/Bomber Commandââ¬Â¦?
ââ¬ÅMany people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
Only now does Mel talk figures. The point being that regardless of what version of Jewish casualties you happen to believe in, the number falls well short of what happened in the Soviet Union when held in vice by Judeo-Bolsheviks. The real ââ¬Åcrime of the twentieth century,ââ¬Â at least in the West, but alas, seldom acknowledged as such. Nor is there a Soviet equivalent of the stocked interrogation technique ââ¬ÅYouââ¬â¢ll have to go on record, the Holocaust happened, right?ââ¬Â backed by force capable of ascribing social pariah designation if the answer is deemed lacking.
If web activity is any indication the film seems poised to be a success, but the internet was also tagged as being instrumental for the perceived success of the onetime frontrunner for the Democratic presidential nomination. He will soon depart for oblivion. Let us hope that buying tickets is less challenging than marking them and that the man and his creation meet a different fate.