← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Hilaire Belloc

Are there any Christians in America?

Thread ID: 11847 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2004-01-11

Wayback Archive

Hilaire Belloc [OP]

2004-01-11 20:36 | User Profile

[url]http://www.serbianna.com/columns/weber/006.shtml[/url]

Are There Any Christians in America?

By T.V. Weber So many Orthodox Christians were martyred in the twentieth century that the number of those martyred in Roman times has become comparatively insignificant. That’s right: all of the human lion food, all of the human torches, and all of the other Christians executed, from the time of the stoning of Stephen until Emperor Constantine’s legalization of Christianity, are a mere drop in the bucket compared to those Christians who gave their lives in the twentieth century.

Americans have no concept of the price of faith. Overfed Baptists who condemn everyone who disagrees with them, secular Methodists who rationalize and condone just about every type of evil behavior, and Catholics who cheerfully deposit funds in the collection plate so that their bishop can pay off the victims of pedophile priests, have one thing in common: they simply do not get it.

Of course, there are those groups of adherents outside of mainstream Christianity, which the mainstream refers to as “cults.” They have their sacred books other than the Bible, or a Jesus who is not really the Son of God, or some leader who has had private revelations. By and large, with the exception of David Koresh’s Branch Davidians, these quasi-Christian organizations have been allowed to preach their take on life with little or no interference from the government or the communities where they reside.

What a complacent and naively romanticized view of Christianity we have here in America! While the focus may change from denomination to denomination, or from cult to cult, the common expectation is that “the living is easy”—that the need for sacrifice and courage is a thing of the distant past.

Thus, it is considered a major “persecution” when a boss suggests that an employee should not leave a Bible open—or even closed—on a desk at the office. A public school that lets the French club use a classroom after school, but won’t let a student-run Bible-study club do the same, becomes a major target of Christian scorn. And what torture it is when a local church is not allowed to put up its traditional Nativity display in the town square! Any of us can still place an entire reenactment scene in our own front yard!

I hasten to point out that I do not intend to demean solid American Christians of any denomination. My observations should not be interpreted in any manner that suggests I am looking for excuses to find fault with other Christians, so as to curry favor from a zealous Orthodox Christian readership. My intention is simply to point out the fact that however well intentioned other American Christians might be, they seem to be completely indifferent to the plight of their Orthodox brothers and sisters in faith.

Persecution of Orthodox Christians

When the subject of recent persecution is broached, American Christians are quick to think of Protestants in China, or Catholics in Southeast Asia and other parts of the world where there is a strong missionary presence, but somehow the plight of Christians in the Orthodox world fails to show up on the radar screen as religious persecution.

How is it that we view the Nazi holocaust against the Jews as religious persecution, but the massive Nazi exterminations of Orthodox Christians as a non-event—even when these Christians were slaughtered alongside the Jews in the very same death camps and killing fields? Over a million Serbs, Orthodox Christians, were executed by the forces of the Third Reich; approximately 700,000 of them perished at Jasenovac death camp. Auschwitz is preserved as a memorial to the Jews who perished there, and well it should be. Even prayer by a non-Jewish religious leader, such as the Pope, is viewed with suspicion. Yet, the world stood silently by when the Croatians took a bulldozer to the remnants of Jasenovac.

When we speak of Stalin’s mass murders, from the 1920s through the early 1950s, we rightly attribute it to the evils of Communism. But does anyone ever notice whom Stalin was starving to death? The Communists were, by definition, atheists. Atheism and materialism were key tenets of Soviet ideology. Thus, more often than not, their victims, in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and other Slavic lands, were Orthodox Christians.

The long and agonizing destruction of Yugoslavia, particularly the last two rounds of warfare in Bosnia and Kosovo, involved considerable religious overtones. Had the world press viewed this conflict in the same terms as it did other conflicts based on religion, the war in Bosnia would have been clearly portrayed as Islamic forces fighting against Roman Catholic forces, both of which were fighting against Orthodox forces. The war in Kosovo would have been viewed as radical Islamic forces battling Orthodox forces. Instead, the wars were cast in terms of racial struggles.

Western reporters were astounded when Serbs in Kosovo would offer weapons or protection to their Shiptar neighbors, whom the Western press called “Albanians,” or even “Kosovars.” It never occurred to the reporters that there might be a reason why some of the Shiptars got along well with their Serbian neighbors in Kosovo, while others did not. The fact that Christian neighbors might offer one another protection from attack by Islamic extremists was well beyond the intelligence—in either sense of the word—of any American reporter prior to September 11, 2001.

But are there any Christians in America? Any Christian should have realized that the Kosovo War was a conflict between Christian Serbia and Muslim extremists who have slowly invaded Kosovo—the Serbian Holy Land—and claimed it as their own. Serbian Americans, Greek Americans, Macedonian Americans, Russian Americans, and so forth, seemed to be the only ones in this part of the world who “got it.”

So, a more interesting question would be: are there any real Christians in America, other than the Orthodox? If so, why did these Christians not object to Clinton’s war on Christianity in the Balkans?

What Happens During Other Religious Conflicts?

For many years, in the view of the American public, the “Troubles” in Northern Ireland represented the quintessential conflict based upon religious differences. But on a deeper level, it is not a question of religion, but a question of British occupation of Ireland, that has always motivated the conflict. Yet, as news reportage would have it, one side is described as “Roman Catholic,” while the other side is characterized as “Protestant” without any focus on denomination or on the tenets of their beliefs. This conflict is primarily a British problem, but it has become a big issue to the U.S. government, as well.

What does the “world community”—such as it is—do about the problem in Northern Ireland? They encourage the warring sides to make peace. How does the “world community” enforce the peace? It applies diplomatic pressure.

There never is any use of force by the—U.S. dominated—world community. And here’s why: There simply are too many Roman Catholics and too many Protestants in the United States to admit that possibility.

Another hot spot of religious war is Israel. The Western press seems to endlessly belabor the fact that the Israelis are Jews, but, at least until the September 11 attack, they barely seemed to notice that the vast majority of the Arabs who are claming status as “Palestinians” are Muslims. Of course, any remark to that effect invites critics to haul out a few dozen non-Muslims who side with the Muslim Palestinians. After all, whenever people choose sides, there are always exceptions. Every American who finished grade school should know that even the makeup of the opposing armies in American War for Independence was not that cut-and-dried. George Washington crossed the Delaware to defeat German (then known as Prussian and Hessian), not British, troops. It was the French forces, not American forces, who caused the British to “throw in the towel” after Cornwallis surrendered. So, spare me the tale about your uncle who claims to be a Unitarian or whatever, but who lives in Gaza and supports the Palestinians.

The “Middle East peace process” has been a major part of the agenda that American Presidents have been expected to “manage,” ever since the days when Jimmy Carter roamed the White House and complained that the U.S. Presidency was “too big of a job for one man to handle.”

Once again, do we ever threaten to bomb either the Israelis or the Palestinians into submission? No. For one thing, there are enough Jews in America to keep the government from bombing the Israelis. Similarly, there are a number of reasons why we don’t bomb the Palestinians into submission: there are too many anti-Semites in the U.S.; we are too devoted to protecting Islam, so that Muslim countries do not shut off the flow of oil; and too many of those “petrodollars” have found their way into American politics. Anyone who doubts that the latter is a factor should think back to “Abscam.” It is simply too easy to influence American leaders with campaign contributions. Of course, the Clinton presidency—and the Dole candidacy—are clear evidence that nobody cares all that much when American politicians are bought by foreign dollars.

Clinton’s Balkans Policy Was a War Against Christianity

I recently attended a Christian writers’ conference, as much of my work is potentially salable in that area. I knew that the “where-do-you-go-to-church” type of question would come up. Having had considerable exposure to both the Evangelical and Roman Catholic worlds prior to marrying a Serbian-American and converting to Orthodoxy, I thought that I knew the Christian world fairly well. So, I expected that I would need to explain what the Eastern Orthodox Church was. While little else has changed in Evangelical Protestant circles, it seems that they now know that Orthodox Christianity exists.

It may have helped that a new Orthodox church building had been built across the railroad tracks from the Wheaton College Campus, where the conference was being held. Whatever the reason, but it was fairly refreshing so be recognized as an Orthodox without confusion. When the subject came up, I merely reached for the Orthodox cross around my neck and said “Orthodox.” No one mistakenly added the word “Greek;” as it had once been commonly assumed, throughout most of the U.S., that only Greeks could be Orthodox. They treated me like everyone else; one woman even commented, “That is the original Christianity.”

So, it appears that Evangelical Christians tend to know more about Orthodox Christians than typically did only a few years ago. While the American news media can confuse anything, those who follow world events tend to have a good idea what religions are practiced by various groups of people. This is especially true for those in government.

Reflecting back on the events of the Clinton presidency, it should be obvious exactly where he and Hillary have always stood on the issue of Christianity. In addition to Bill’s womanizing and Hillary’s efforts to make herself appear palatable to gay and lesbian voters, their record on Christianity is clear. Hilary’s defense has always been that she and Bill have been plagued by a “vast-right wing conspiracy.” It does not take too much deep thinking to translate “vast right-wing conspiracyââ��¬Â as a code word for the so-called “Christian Right.” While it is obvious that the Clintons are at war with the Christian Right, perhaps they are also at war with any Christian who is not pro-Clinton. So, with the exception of pro-adultery Christians and pro-homosexual Christians, the Clintons have no use for Christianity.

Orthodox Christians must pose a particular problem for the Clintons. There is no chance that Orthodox Christianity will alter its tenets to fit the leftist agenda sponsored by the Clintons.

So, what is the most politically expedient way for the Clintons to display the deepest possible contempt for Christianity? Had they gone any further to support anti-Christian policies in America, the so-called “Christian Right” would have had tremendous ammunition for opposing the Clintons and for raising money for Republican candidates. Elderly hypocrites who had been willing sacrifice all other principles to support Clinton because he would protect their Social Security payments—something they were in no danger of losing—would no longer be able to do so. There is a final type of retirement where Social Security, pensions, and other earthly assets are not needed.

But singling out and targeting one fairly small group of Orthodox Christians—including many who were more or less estranged from the faith as a result of Communist occupation—would be easy. There would be no major backlash at home; American Christians have no concept of the foundations of their faith. They have no understanding of persecution.

Martyrs often are persecuted for both religious and political reasons. Joan of Arc has been a popular topic for films in recent years. The Catholic Church executed her during the Middle Ages. In the early 20th century, the same Catholic Church decided to consider her a saint, as well as a martyr.

The Orthodox Church recently recognized two martyred saints who were murdered after Kosovo had been turned over to the KFOR occupation forces. KFOR has given the KLA free rein to persecute the Serbs who had been left behind. Without Clinton, there would have been two fewer saints, and, at least, two more living Serbian Orthodox priests in Kosovo. Of course, many other Serbs, Shiptars, and people of many other nationalities lost their lives due to Clinton’s actions.

While we are micro-inspecting George W. Bush’s reasons for invading Iraq, we seem to ignore the fact that Clinton’s reasons for the Kosovo War and ongoing occupation were, and are, completely bogus. During more than four years of occupation, we still do not have a shred of evidence that any Serbs did anything wrong to any of the Shiptars. Yet, there is no groundswell of opinion in American demanding an investigation, nor the withdrawal of our troops from the Balkans.

Clinton was able to condemn the Serbs—a Christian people—and virtually no one has come to their defense. He was able to use American resources to create an establishment of religion in Kosovo, namely Islam. Likewise, he has used American resources to prohibit the free exercise of religion in much of Kosovo, namely Christianity.

Clearly, the war in Kosovo was, and still is, a war against Christianity. Yet, no major Christian organization other than the Orthodox has taken a stand against the Kosovo War and the continued occupation of Kosovo, a province of Serbia, by KLA and KFOR forces.

Therefore, I must ask again: Are there any Christians in America?

Oliver Cromwell

2004-01-11 21:21 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Over a million Serbs, Orthodox Christians, were executed by the forces of the Third Reich; approximately 700,000 of them perished at Jasenovac death camp.[/QUOTE]

Another ridiculous exaggeration as bad as the Jewish exaggerations about Auschwitz.

Franco

2004-01-12 00:04 | User Profile

The only Christians oppressed by the Nazis were the ones who had the stupidity to speak out against Nazism in public.

Since Nazism was the only hedge against out-of-control Marxism in Europe, you might think that those Christians would have remained silent....who else was opposing Marxism? No one. Heck, the U.S. was aiding the Soviets, if you recall! In fact, FDR's official recognition of the Soviet state as legit opened them up to world credit [$$$] which they did not have before.

:hitler: :hitler:

[edited]

Leveller

2004-01-12 01:24 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Franco]The only Christians oppressed by the Nazis were the ones who had the stupidity to speak out against Nazism in public. [/QUOTE]

Oh that's alright then.

LlenLleawc

2004-01-12 02:07 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Franco] Since Nazism was the only hedge against out-of-control Marxism in Europe, you might think that those Christians would have remained silent....who else was opposing Marxism? No one. Heck, the U.S. was aiding the Soviets, if you recall! In fact, FDR's official recognition of the Soviet state as legit opened them up to world credit [$$$] which they did not have before. [edited][/QUOTE]

True; regardless of how one judges Nazism, Hitler may very well have singlehandedly prevented the global domination of communism; communism was even strong in America before WWII. I've always seen the rise of Nazism as an inevitable result of poor judgements from western governments and western leaders who were willing to throw Germany to the wolves, so I don't blame Germans for doing what they could to resist.

Yet there is no way Nazi doctrine can be called Christian. Hitler did not go out of his way to attack the church, but he did try to undermine it by, for example, having Hitler youth meetings on Sunday mornings to draw the young away from the churches. Hitler did want to replace the church with a new state religion.

As for the Serbs, they were brutalised by the Nazis because they were Slavs and not specifically because of their faith, so the above article is only half-right.

The larger point of the article though, is timely. Operation "Allied Force" in Kosovo was a war to project international power into the Balkans at the expense of Christian Serbs. One of the things that causes disgust for me is to see leftists who spout out that quote by Pastor Niemuller(sp?), you know the one that goes something like, "I didn't stand up for the jews, gypsies, homos, etc... when they were taken away and then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me." I don't understand how leftists can repeat this ad naseum and then not see it unfolding right in front of their own eyes. Clinton's actions in Kosovo paved the way for Bush; it was a war justified on false premises and skirted international law (and set back US-Russian relations- but most leftists are too internationally ignorant to see that). If they didn't complain when Clinton hijacked the law to fulfill the UN's global vision, by what right do they complain when Bush pursues the neocon global vision? How can they claim to care for Iraqis when Serbian families are still suffering from radiation poisoning? Hypocrites.

wild_bill

2004-01-12 02:13 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Franco]The only Christians oppressed by the Nazis were the ones who had the stupidity to speak out against Nazism in public. [/QUOTE]

What were the nazis doing in Serbia? Am I to presume that if the nazis invaded a country, its people should just shut up and like it?

How were the nazis fighting communism by killing Christians?

-

wild_bill

2004-01-12 02:16 | User Profile

[QUOTE=LlenLleawc]Yet there is no way Nazi doctrine can be called Christian. Hitler did not go out of his way to attack the church, but he did try to undermine it by, for example, having Hitler youth meetings on Sunday mornings to draw the young away from the churches. Hitler did want to replace the church with a new state religion. [/QUOTE]

Probably why Germany got its butt whipped and Hitler ended up blowing his brains out.

-

LlenLleawc

2004-01-12 02:32 | User Profile

[QUOTE=wild_bill]Probably why Germany got its butt whipped and Hitler ended up blowing his brains out.

-[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Ultimately Hitler was a failure and I did not mean to imply I was a fan of Nazism, only that it must be seen objectively, with both its accomplishments (i.e. resisting communism) and failures (devastating Christian Slavs) in balance.

-Llen

Smedley Butler

2004-01-12 03:58 | User Profile

Pardon me, but in light of our attack on Serbia, for no dam good reason,and many more willful crimes like Waco, it makes the Nazi's look like angel's.... Perhaps? Hey, yes the Reich made a tactical mistake with the Slav's.. Point is personally I was in shock that Congress and even Clitooooon basher's with beer gut's were supporting Clitooon when he and " Clark I am Jew Now" attacked Serbia. I knew then that whites would have no safety in any dual citizenship lead country and with Itsalie allowed to have nukes it's looking ugly, and it is no accident that the feral hiring of alphabet agents are heavily schewed against straight white males, and with the fact that Hmoongs are constantly being flown in to the U.S. along with African's and then the foot traffic from Mexico, and Asian's Canoe in to Washington state from Canada etc. If I was from another planet and saw the industrial base removed from U.S. and the savages being brought in I would say that the whites of this country are under full attack.....The troops may never come home, we being put in a trap, perhaps. Hope I am completely wrong...

wild_bill

2004-01-12 05:08 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Smedley Butler]Pardon me, but in light of our attack on Serbia, for no dam good reason,and many more willful crimes like Waco, it makes the Nazi's look like angel's.... Perhaps? Hey, yes the Reich made a tactical mistake with the Slav's.. [/QUOTE]

Two points related to this story. First is how the utterly miserable evangelicals like Falwell and Robertson didn't utter so much as a peep of protest when Clinton bombed the Serbs, who were only fighting off a Muslim invasion of their territory.

Second: An article appeared a couple days ago telling how German nazis were selling arms to the Muslims in Kosovo! Let me see. Oh, yes. Hitler was allied with the Albanian Muslims against Serbia back in WW2, so that means today's nazis must also be allied with the Muslims. Doesn't matter if it makes any sense. Just as long as Hitler did it, they must imitate it. Morons.

-

Okiereddust

2004-01-12 05:09 | User Profile

[QUOTE=perun1201]Clearly, the war in Kosovo was, and still is, a war against Christianity. Yet, no major Christian organization other than the Orthodox has taken a stand against the Kosovo War and the continued occupation of Kosovo, a province of Serbia, by KLA and KFOR forces. [/QUOTE] Well I don't want to defend the Klinton admin, but clearly, from a Christian standpoint, the action against Kosovo suffered a cetain lack of credibility from being associated with Slobadan Milosovich. After all the Orthodox Church in Serbia did not trust him or support him, for one thing. That makes it hard for any other religious groups to support him.

Also, from a far-rightist perspective, its hard to really understand this love for Milosovich and the Serbs, when the Serbs were constantly playing PC politics themselves, claiming the war between themselves and their enemies in the former Yugoslavia hearkened back to the days of the warfare between Serbian Communism and the ethnic's opposition Nazi alignment.

wild_bill

2004-01-12 05:19 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Well I don't want to defend the Klinton admin, but clearly, from a Christian standpoint, the action against Kosovo suffered a cetain lack of credibility from being associated with Slobadan Milosovich. After all the Orthodox Church in Serbia did not trust him or support him, for one thing. That makes it hard for any other religious groups to support him.[/QUOTE]

Nobody says Slobodan was the perfect leader, but he was the elected leader of Serbia. The point is US attacks were against Christians in support of Muslims. Now the Muslims have all but ethnically-cleansed Kosovo and have now gained an important toe hold into Europe.

[QUOTE] Also, from a far-rightist perspective, its hard to really understand this love for Milosovich and the Serbs, when the Serbs were constantly playing PC politics themselves, claiming the war between themselves and their enemies in the former Yugoslavia hearkened back to the days of the warfare between Serbian Communism and the ethnic's opposition Nazi alignment.[/QUOTE]

Even the NA backed Serbia despite their having been an enemy of Germany back in WW2. William Pierce wasn't living in the past and was solidly in support of Molosevic.

In the conflict between the Catholic Bosnians and the Serbs, I think your point would stand, but not when the Muslims were involved.

-

Okiereddust

2004-01-12 06:20 | User Profile

[QUOTE=wild_bill]Nobody says Slobodan was the perfect leader, but he was the elected leader of Serbia. Under what circumstances. In any event, Klinton was also the elected leader of Amerika. What's the point?

The point is US attacks were against Christians in support of Muslims. Now the Muslims have all but ethnically-cleansed Kosovo and have now gained an important toe hold into Europe. Reducing the conflict to a oly War really makes little sense to me. Especially when the supporters of such are the notoriusly atheistic NA, etc.

Even the NA backed Serbia despite their having been an enemy of Germany back in WW2. William Pierce wasn't living in the past and was solidly in support of Molosevic. You expect me to view the support of something by Pierce and the NA as a selling point?

In the conflict between the Catholic Bosnians and the Serbs, I think your point would stand, but not when the Muslims were involved.-[/QUOTE]

Do you think it really made any difference to the Serbs?

Oliver Cromwell

2004-01-12 13:48 | User Profile

Slavs were the big losers during the 30's and 40's, but there is still lots of propaganda concerning them.

First of all, Nazi Germany had 3 Slavic nations among it's 8 allies, Croatia, Slovakia and Bulgaria, so one has to take the story about Germany wanting to enslave the Slavs with a grain of salt.

As to why the Germans invaded Serbia, this should be taken in the context of traditonal Russian alliances with the Serbs. There is virtually no genetic difference between Serbs and Croats, and the Croats welcomed the German invasion.

wild_bill

2004-01-12 16:42 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Under what circumstances. In any event, Klinton was also the elected leader of Amerika. What's the point?[/QUOTE]

You insinuated that Milosevic wasn't the legitament leader of Serbia.

[QUOTE] Reducing the conflict to a oly War really makes little sense to me. Especially when the supporters of such are the notoriusly atheistic NA, etc. [/QUOTE]

It is a religious war to a large degree. The Albanian Muslims are comrades of all Muslims - 99% of which are non-white.

Serbia has traditionally acted as a kind of bulwark against Muslim expansion into Europe. With Kosovo now all but under the control of the Muslim KLA, this provides a direct corridor for Muslim illegal immigrants into white Europe. And you see no problem with that?

[QUOTE] You expect me to view the support of something by Pierce and the NA as a selling point? [/QUOTE]

Many Hitler worshippers operate under this idiotic mindset where any ally of Germany during WW2 should be thier ally today. We see this in Kosovo where ex-officials of the NDP of Germany have set-up a weapons business with the Muslims in Kosovo. William Pierce, who was an admirer of Hitler, still didn't allow that to cloud his mind to the realities of today, namely that if Serbia lost in its effort to reclaim Kosovo, which is historically part of greater Serbia, that this would be a serious loss for Europe and the white race. Even a non-Christian like Pierce understood that.

[QUOTE] Do you think it really made any difference to the Serbs?[/QUOTE]

What made a difference? The fact that Bill Clinton prevented them from defending their territory and enabled the Muslims to ethnically cleanse Kosovo of Christians?

-

jay

2004-01-12 17:02 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Leveller]Oh that's alright then.[/QUOTE]

I had to shake my head in bewilderment at Franco's quote, too.

-Jay

Texas Dissident

2004-01-12 17:09 | User Profile

[QUOTE=perun1201]What a complacent and naively romanticized view of Christianity we have here in America! While the focus may change from denomination to denomination, or from cult to cult, the common expectation is that "the living is easy"--that the need for sacrifice and courage is a thing of the distant past.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. It may not be done, but it is still pretty much the ideal.

Leveller

2004-01-12 23:40 | User Profile

I'll never forget Albrights assertion on TV that the Serbs had murdered half a million children. Even the shameless liar Tony Blair 'only' said half a million people.

[IMG]http://oag.ru/images/caricatures/mad.jpg[/IMG]