← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Buster
Thread ID: 11524 | Posts: 20 | Started: 2003-12-18
2003-12-18 18:16 | User Profile
[url]http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20031208_pr.html[/url]
2003-12-18 19:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster][url]http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20031208_pr.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Good article, thanks for posting it.
The taproot of the problem is the modernitst liturgy. All "culture" stems from "cult" - how we worship defines who we are. If we have a touchy-feely liturgy, we'll turn into a bunch of sappy spiritual blobs. If we have a majestic Sacrifice of the Mass, we have a shot at sanctity.
We must return to the Latin Mass. There's really nothing wrong with us that the Latin High Tridentine Mass cannot fix.
Walter
2003-12-18 20:08 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]
We must return to the Latin Mass. There's really nothing wrong with us that the Latin High Tridentine Mass cannot fix.
Walter[/QUOTE]
Would that the Pope had such basic wisdom, Walter.
2003-12-19 06:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster]Would that the Pope had such basic wisdom, Walter.[/QUOTE]
JPII was one of the architects of Vatican II, and so part of the blame for this mess should be laid at his venerable feet.
What in the hell were they thinking?
To his credit JPII has pressed the bishops to increase availability of the Latin Mass, but that movement has met much resistance.
Walter
2003-12-19 09:27 | User Profile
Here's an interesting rant from EtherZone.
The author makes an important point about "loyalty to the Magisterium" versus loyalty to any given pontiff.
Walter
THE WHORE OF BABYLON AND THE ONE WORLD RELIGION
By: Paula Devlin
"ââ¬Â¦we denounced once more the realization of a terrifying plan seeking to radically wrest minds away from the faith of Christ, to a world domination by the enemy of men of God." (Pius XII, Doc. Pont., 1953, p. 630.)
During the latter days of the pontificate of Pius XII the plans for the takeover of the Roman Catholic Church were finalized. Their execution was completed during Vatican II with the election of Paul VI to the papacy. Satan was enthroned in the Vatican just prior to his election, which had been predetermined (probably by members of P-2 who participated in the enthronement).
The true church was transformed from an institution concerned with the salvation of souls, transformed to the Novus Ordo to mesh with the Novus Ordo Seculorum of Freemasonry. The Vaticrats who took over the church rejected the warnings of the popes of the past 150 years against liberalism, socialism, communism and Freemasonry. They embraced it wholeheartedly and are delivering many trusting souls to hell.
The faithful were carefully prepared for this transition by a corruption of the teaching of obedience. A cult of the papacy developed where the faithful were encouraged to follow the pope rather than the teachings of the Magesterium (the Magesterium is the body of doctrine and dogma, the most essential teachings being contained in the traditional Mass, pre-1956).
Doctrines such as sin, purgatory and hell have disappeared. The divinity of Christ has wafted off and devotion to His Mother has evaporated. Devotions to the saints are rarely found. Beautiful churches have been destroyed or closed (this is still going on). What was Catholicism before Vatican II exists only in an underground Church, just as it did in the first three centuries of Catholicism when the state executed 11,000,000.
These facts are important because they have a relationship to the state of the world today. There are some very astute writers in this country who have deduced the schema for the New World Order, including the invisible controllers. However, their perception that the Catholic Church was part and parcel of this from the beginning is erroneous. Those who would wish to argue are referred to Aquinasââ¬â¢s Summa Theologica first.
It is only since Vatican II that the Church has become the Whore of Babylon, in existence to put the finishing touches on the One World Religion and to usher in the ultimate antichrist.
There isnââ¬â¢t going to be a rapture. There is going to be a persecution, right here in the good ole USA, of those few who refuse to give up their faith and worship mammon.
Of all the useful idiots, liberals, socialists, communists and freemasons who have worked so hard to advance the cause of humanism, the worship of man as god and the New World Order, no one is more culpable than the Catholic Church in having it here now, devouring nations, jobs, the economy, personal freedom, religious freedom, morality and families.
The Church had a golden opportunity, in a window of 43 years, to follow the wishes of Our Lady of Fatima. There were three things the churchman failed to do: consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart; spread the devotions of the Five First Saturdays and praying the Rosary (the 15 decades, not the blasphemous new one), and reveal the Third Secret of Fatima. According to the last living seer of Fatima, the last time available to do that was 1960. These devotions were to be in addition to the normal duties of Catholics, not replace them.
Is it any wonder that St. John Chrysostom said that the floor of hell is paved with the heads of bishops? And that was centuries ago.
They have failed so dismally that itââ¬â¢s a wonder God has not shown His wrath more directly. Allowing Vatican City to become a World Heritage Site is one example of His displeasure.
But, His ways being inscrutable, we can be sure that He will effect punishments that will produce maximum conversions. We can see the inroads the godless have made in all of the earthââ¬â¢s nations, causing much suffering.
"ââ¬Â¦public sin always draws down on the people great chastisements and Godââ¬â¢s anger because public sin is visible and the rest of the people consent to it. These chastisements especially happen when the number of just and reparatory souls is not sufficient to counter-balance the evil done by those public sinsââ¬Â¦May God help us do what we can on our part." Sr. Lucy, quoted in Fatima, Intimate Joy, World Event, Frиre Franзois de Marie des Anges, Vol. IV, p.76.
We can hold the Vaticrats accountable, but that does not leave us unaccountable. Witness the deterioration of the United States morally, from the top down. Right now we have a president who does acknowledge Christ, but is confused when it comes to other religions. There is only one Son of God. He is the sole means of salvation. It has been a goal of Freemasonry to destroy Catholicism and homogenize religion (why not, Freemasonry is a satanic cult). Satan is gleeful with their success.
Those who are baptized Catholics have a particular duty to pray and sacrifice for those to be enlightened, including Freemasons, Moslems and Jews, even if they do not wish those prayers.
St. Paul told us that a certain number of goyim, to replace the Jews who reject Christ, will be saved before the Jews are converted. Why prolong their agony? (Hosea 3:4-5, Rm 11:25) Why prolong our own?
We have a job to do and there are no leaders to guide us. We are misled by false teachers and false prophets. For any who are fallen away Catholics or still following the bogus Novus Ordo, find a traditional chapel, make a good confession, start receiving valid sacraments, pray the true Rosary and do penance.
For those who are not Catholics, stop sinning, stop tolerating public sin, pray to find the truth and Godââ¬â¢s will for your life. The question is not whether Jesus loves you, but how you love Him. Salvation is interactive.
Heââ¬â¢s waiting for us to stop being such whusses and kick butt, so to speak.
"Published originally at EtherZone.com : republication allowed with this notice and hyperlink intact."
[URL=http://www.etherzone.com/2003/devl121903.shtml]EtherZone.Com[/URL]
2003-12-19 16:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]JPII was one of the architects of Vatican II, and so part of the blame for this mess should be laid at his venerable feet. [/QUOTE]
I don't think I'd call him an "architect." More of a disciple of the architects. I think he was particularly dazzled by the Germans, hence the prominent role of Ratzinger in the new Church.
Germans are good at many things, but theology isn't one of them. Leave theology to the Italians, I always say.
2003-12-19 17:13 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]
To his credit JPII has pressed the bishops to increase availability of the Latin Mass, but that movement has met much resistance. [/QUOTE]
Of course it's met resistance. Why would the Catholic Church change practically 2,000 years of liturgy and teachings in the first place? It was all about adjusting to those ever-changing social mores, and who better to do it than Western Man.
Do you really think JP II wanted to give the Latin Mass to those who wanted it? They are schismatics to him. I personally find it revolting that there are those who have to get permission to adhere to pre-Vatican II rite, and keep in mind that not everyone can get permission. That's why the SSPX was formed. Unfortunately, a number of people from the SSPX sold out and returned to the New Springtime. They couldn't fathom being sated with a liturgy that wasn't kosher.
2003-12-19 20:48 | User Profile
I think the Society of St. Pius X is vindicated more and more every year, not only by the decadence within the Church, but by the demonstrable inability of JPII to do anything meaningful about it. I cringe every time he opens his mouth to sing the praises of Vatican II.
And those who accept the Pope's good faith should note, he has not celebrated the Tridentine mass himself ever --not once.
2003-12-20 06:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster]I think the Society of St. Pius X is vindicated more and more every year, not only by the decadence within the Church, but by the demonstrable inability of JPII to do anything meaningful about it. I cringe every time he opens his mouth to sing the praises of Vatican II.
And those who accept the Pope's good faith should note, he has not celebrated the Tridentine mass himself ever --not once.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you about SSPX.
I wasn't aware that JPII doesn't/hasn't celebrated the Tridentine mass. Could you please cite a source for me to review?
Walter
2003-12-20 12:18 | User Profile
If all these bad things are happening in the RC church, have you considered becoming Orthodox?
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Regards, Wild Bill
2003-12-20 14:25 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]If all these bad things are happening in the RC church, have you considered becoming Orthodox?
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Regards, Wild Bill[/QUOTE]
No.
But I know what you mean.
Walter
2003-12-20 16:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis] I wasn't aware that JPII doesn't/hasn't celebrated the Tridentine mass. Could you please cite a source for me to review?[/QUOTE]
I believe Ratzinger has said it once, and Hoyos celebrated it in Rome last spring, both to great notoriety in the Catholic press. If JPII ever celebrated it, it would be front page news. He never has.
As to Orthodox Wild Bill, I respectfully submit that no one looks to the Orthodox for serious moral or religious leadership. However, I have attended various eastern rites which the RC Church recognizes, especially the Byzantine.
2003-12-20 17:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster]As to Orthodox Wild Bill, I respectfully submit that no one looks to the Orthodox for serious moral or religious leadership. However, I have attended various eastern rites which the RC Church recognizes, especially the Byzantine.[/QUOTE]
What kind of moral leadership are are you talking about? I constantly hear people making negative comments about the Vatican, especially over the homosexual pedophile sex scandals. Maybe some Catholics look to the Pope for moral leadership, but it doesn't look like some of the Catholics on this forum do that.
From what I know, the Orthodox have done little compromising on moral issues as compared to Rome. Maybe Orthodoxy SHOULD be looked to for moral and religious leadership.
Regards, Wild Bill
2003-12-20 18:32 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]What kind of moral leadership are are you talking about? I constantly hear people making negative comments about the Vatican, especially over the homosexual pedophile sex scandals. Maybe some Catholics look to the Pope for moral leadership, but it doesn't look like some of the Catholics on this forum do that.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for you thoughts, WB. You sound like a sincere God-fearing man.
I think the scandalous behavior of Catholics, and particularly the hiearchy, is scandalous precisely because people expect more of the Church, and regard Her behavior as all the more horrifying because of who She is. Much the same type of conduct occurs among Protestants, Jews or others, but it is never as newsworthy because people don't look upon them in the same way. The expectations are not the same.
By the way, one thing good I can say about this Pope is his firm position on morals. I dislike his other ideas, as on liturgy, or ecumenism, or church-state relations, but on morals he has held firm.
[QUOTE] Maybe Orthodoxy SHOULD be looked to for moral and religious leadership. [/QUOTE]
Maybe they should, but are they? I commend the Orthodox to the extent they have held firm. But I don't think much of the world even knows who the Orthodox patriarchs are. Does anyone not know who the Pope is? I also don't think Rome has compromised as much as it has simply lost discipline and control, for which it only has itself to blame.
2003-12-20 20:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Buster]Maybe they should, but are they? I commend the Orthodox to the extent they have held firm. But I don't think much of the world even knows who the Orthodox patriarchs are. Does anyone not know who the Pope is? I also don't think Rome has compromised as much as it has simply lost discipline and control, for which it only has itself to blame.[/QUOTE]
Maybe not in the US or western Europe, but in eastern Europe and Russia the Orthodox Church is certainly seen as a moral authority. Look at how President Putin pays respect to the Orthodox leaders and makes no secret that he is Orthodox.
I think in the US there are about six or seven million practicing Eastern Orthodox. That's more than the Jews, yet hardly ever does anyone mention the Orthodox. Possibly most people think Orthodox is just a different flavor of Catholicism and not a separate branch with its own doctrines and beliefs.
Orthodoxy has been gaining influence recently since there's been a significant influx of persons from various Protestant denominations who became fed-up with compromises and politically correctness. There have actually been whole congregations that have converted en masse to Orthodoxy. I know there have been a number of Episcopals who have recently joined the Orthodox Church over that sodomite bishop.
Maybe the reason that Orthodoxy doesn't get more publicity is we're not strong proselytizers and there's no central leader. We have the respective Bishops of the different organizations, but they only control their organization.
There's also a kind of quality-over-quantity mindset. After all, I've heard that 80% of people who "get saved" at Billy Graham crusades very soon fall away from the faith.
Having said that, let me be clear that Orthodox Bishops don't just sit around doing nothing. They are generally very busy. See this as an example:
EVENTS IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH [url]http://www.oca.org/pages/events/index.html[/url]
Regards, Wild Bill
2003-12-21 06:41 | User Profile
I think Lie would be a better word.
2003-12-25 10:21 | User Profile
The Orthodox Church is the Church, together with all the churches that profess the Creed and keep the Sacraments.
There are a few doctrinal points that separate us, including the filioque, the Assumption of the B.V.M. and the definition of the Pope's jurisdiction. But these are things that can be finessed. Maybe I'm looking at it too much like the lawyer I am, but I really don't see any insurrmountable barriers to a common statement sufficient to lift the ex-communication. Even if we don't attain to full unity, Eurcharistic unity is just a step away.
Once we can achieve that (with God's help) and the Church will once again "breath with both lungs" then great things await us.
Have you read Soloviev? What is your take on him?
Walter
2003-12-25 10:24 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Faust]I think Lie would be a better word.[/QUOTE]
I can only paraphrase Jesus: "by their fruits you shall know them." A bad tree cannot produce good fruit, and a good tree cannot produce bad fruit.
The bad fruit of Vatican II is manifest - too obvious and numerous to require cancatenation here.
I won't complete the syllogism, but I'm sure you see what I mean.
Walter
2003-12-26 18:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]The Orthodox Church is the Church, together with all the churches that profess the Creed and keep the Sacraments.
There are a few doctrinal points that separate us, including the filioque, the Assumption of the B.V.M. and the definition of the Pope's jurisdiction. But these are things that can be finessed. Maybe I'm looking at it too much like the lawyer I am, but I really don't see any insurrmountable barriers to a common statement sufficient to lift the ex-communication. Even if we don't attain to full unity, Eurcharistic unity is just a step away.
Once we can achieve that (with God's help) and the Church will once again "breath with both lungs" then great things await us. [/QUOTE]
Based upon what I have heard from Orthodox people, there's no chance for a reunion in the foreseeable future. To many the choice would be either compromise on important doctrinal issues or get into a situation like the Byzantince Catholics and be regarded like the proverbial red-headed stepchild by Rome.
Also the recent Catholic pedophile scandals have strengthened the resistance amongst Orthodox folks to any reunion with Rome. I just don't see many people in favor of it.
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2003-12-26 19:14 | User Profile
I don't see any incentive for the Orthodox to make peace with Rome. To be nudged into kissing Korans, Talmuds and praise multi-kilti and divershitty? Fvck that. It's better to be separate but not compromized.