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Thread ID: 11411 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2003-12-08
2003-12-08 22:05 | User Profile
[url=http://www.iht.com/articles/98903.htm]How Weber's 'Protestant Ethic' explains U.S. edge over Europe[/url]
Niall Ferguson The New York Times Monday, June 9, 2003
OXFORD, England Almost a century ago the German sociologist Max Weber published his influential essay "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism." Weber argued that modern capitalism was "born from the spirit of Christian asceticism" in its specifically Protestant form - that there was a link between the self-denying ethos of the Protestant sects and the behavior patterns associated with capitalism, above all hard work.
Many scholars have built careers out of criticizing Weber's thesis. Yet the experience of Western Europe in the past quarter-century offers an unexpected confirmation of it. To put it bluntly, we are witnessing the simultaneous decline of both Protestantism and its unique work ethic in Europe. Just as Weber's 1904 visit to the United States convinced him that his thesis was right, anyone visiting New York today would have a similar experience. For in the pious, industrious United States, the Protestant work ethic is alive and well. Its death is a peculiarly European phenomenon - and has grim implications for the future of the European Union on the eve of its eastward expansion, perhaps most economically disastrous for the "new" Europe.
Many economists have missed this vindication of Weber because they are focused on measures of productivity, like output per hour worked. On that basis, the Western European economies have spent most of the past half-century spectacularly catching up with the United States.
But what the productivity numbers don't reveal is the dramatic divergence over two decades between the amount of time Americans work and the amount of time West Europeans work. By American standards, West Europeans are astonishingly idle.
According to a recent study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the average working American spends 1,976 hours a year on the job. The average German works 1,535 - 22 percent less. The Dutch and Norwegians put in even fewer hours. Between 1979 and 1999, the average American working year lengthened by 50 hours, or nearly 3 percent. But the average German working year shrank by 12 percent. Yet even these figures understate the extent of European idleness, because a larger proportion of Americans work. Between 1973 and 1998 the percentage of the American population in employment rose from 41 percent to 49 percent. But in Germany and France the percentage fell, ending up at 44 and 39 percent.
Then there are the strikes. Between 1992 and 2001, the Spanish economy lost, on average, 271 days per 1,000 employees as a result of strikes. For Denmark, Italy, Finland, Ireland and France, the figures range between 80 and 120 days, compared with fewer than 50 for the United States.
All this is the real reason the U.S. economy has surged ahead of its European competitors in the past two decades. It is not about efficiency. It is simply that Americans work more. Europeans take longer holidays and retire earlier; and many more European workers are unemployed or on strike. How to explain this sharp divergence? Why have West Europeans opted for shorter working days, weeks, months, years and lives? This is where Weber's thesis comes up trumps: The countries where the least work is done in Europe turn out to be those that were once predominantly Protestant. While the overwhelmingly Catholic French and Italians work about 15 to 20 percent fewer hours a year than Americans, the more Protestant Germans and Dutch and the wholly Protestant Norwegians work 25 to 30 percent less.
What clinches the Weber thesis is that Northern Europe's declines in working hours coincide almost exactly with steep declines in religious observance. In the Netherlands, Britain, Germany, Sweden and Denmark, less than 10 percent of the population now attend church at least once a month, a dramatic decline since the 1960s. In the recent Gallup Millennium Survey of religious attitudes, 49 percent of Danes, 52 percent of Norwegians and 55 percent of Swedes said God did not matter to them. In North America, by comparison, 82 percent of respondents said God was "very important."
So the decline of work in Northern Europe has occurred more or less simultaneously with the decline of Protestantism. Quod erat demonstrandum!
Weber's vindication has profound implications for the next year's enlargement of the European Union, when the Baltic states, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia and the Czech and Slovak republics will become full European Union members. A crucial feature of this enlargement, compared with those of the 1970s and 1980s, is that the material gap between old and new members is far wider this time. In 1974, the richest old member (Luxembourg) was twice as rich as the poorest new member (Ireland) in terms of per capita gross domestic product. Today, the average Luxembourgeois is more than five times richer than the poorest Lithuanian. The impact of adopting the European Union's economic and social rules is bound to be far greater for this generation of new Europeans. They should remember what happened in the 1990s to the East Germans, who initially celebrated their accession to the vastly richer West German republic, only to discover it meant unemployment for roughly a third of their work force.
This is where productivity statistics matter. Even after more than a decade of free-market reforms, productivity levels in the Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary are as low as one-third of the French level.
East Europeans are currently able to compensate for their low productivity by working longer hours. The average Czech worker does more than 2,000 hours of work a year - a figure steadily rising since the collapse of communism, even as working hours in Western Europe were declining. Unfortunately, European Union labor legislation will reverse this, to prevent what the West Europeans disingenuously call "social dumping" - competition from low-wage economies. According to Gallup, 48 percent of West Europeans almost never go to church, but the figure for Eastern Europe is just a bit less, at 44 percent. Meanwhile, 64 percent of Czechs regard God as not mattering at all - a higher rate than even in Sweden. In this respect the difference between "old" and "new" Europe may turn out to be less than many Americans now believe.
The loser will be the European economy, which will continue to fall behind the United States in terms of its absolute annual output. The winner will be the spirit of secularized sloth, which has finally slain the Protestant work ethic in Europe - and Max Weber, whose famous thesis celebrates its centenary by attaining the status of verity.
2003-12-08 23:56 | User Profile
Does religion shape the people? Then can one start implicating religion in a particular way the people feel about history and a particular tribe? :smartass:
2003-12-09 06:45 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian]Does religion shape the people?
Yes, I believe it does.
Then can one start implicating religion in a particular way the people feel about history and a particular tribe? :smartass:[/QUOTE]
In the case of Protestantism, implications are only accepted for the good fruits. Not the bad. Consider it equal time for the VNN crew. :lol: :cowboy:
2003-12-09 07:11 | User Profile
R.H. Tawney expanded on Weber's thesis in his "Religion and the Rise of Capitalism." This is one of the best books I've ever read, and I think it's absolutely "must" reading.
Available on Amazon
[URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0765804557/qid=1070953656/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-9738630-4809607?v=glance&s=books]HERE.[/URL]
I hasten to add that Capitalism is the enemy, just as Socialism is the enemy.
Walter
2003-12-09 07:18 | User Profile
Thanks for the book recommendation, Walter.
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]I hasten to add that Capitalism is the enemy...[/QUOTE]
I don't necessarily disagree with you here, as I was the one who pinned Francis' classic essay of the same name here in this forum. But a rhetorical question if I may on a subject I'd like to explore: Is capitalism the true enemy or capitalism unhinged from the Protestant ethic the enemy?
2003-12-09 18:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Thanks for the book recommendation, Walter.
I don't necessarily disagree with you here, as I was the one who pinned Francis' classic essay of the same name here in this forum. But a rhetorical question if I may on a subject I'd like to explore: Is capitalism the true enemy or capitalism unhinged from the Protestant ethic the enemy?[/QUOTE]I'm still not exactly sure how he or other rightist writers managed to do it, but Spengler in Prussians and Socialism and other works at various times managed to attack churches of differing sorts for both capitalism and bolshevism.
I'm not the number one Spenglerite here (yield to AntiYuppie) but I'd say it was the Puritans/Calvinists who were targeted more for capitalism, and Catholic/Lutherans targeted more for Bolshevism.
In any sense, other than providing vulgar polemical opportunities for knuckle-draggers, there is an interesting account in a book I read of a meeting/debate once at a German university between Weber and Spengler, although there is a limited audience here for that sort of thing.
2003-12-09 18:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]In any sense, other than providing vulgar polemical opportunities for knuckle-draggers, there is an interesting account in a book I read of a meeting/debate once at a German university between Weber and Spengler, although there is a limited audience here for that sort of thing.[/QUOTE]
You kidding, Okie? As some of our best threads demonstrate, a good portion of our members here live for that kind of esoteric and arcane debate.
2003-12-09 18:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Is capitalism the true enemy or capitalism unhinged from the Protestant ethic the enemy?[/QUOTE] Bingo! It's not the system but the participants. The hippies of the 60's boasted that they'd become lawyers and change the US...they sure did that.
2003-12-09 19:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Thanks for the book recommendation, Walter.
I don't necessarily disagree with you here, as I was the one who pinned Francis' classic essay of the same name here in this forum. But a rhetorical question if I may on a subject I'd like to explore: Is capitalism the true enemy or capitalism unhinged from the Protestant ethic the enemy?[/QUOTE]
As we've discussed previously, your question - IMHO - erroneously assumes that Protestantism could have done anything other than unhinge from Capitalism. That's because Protestantism contains an internal contradiction: it rejects any possibiltiy of an authoritative Tradition and yet it implicity supposes that it can itself form a Tradition sufficient to contain itself through time.
Capitalism was the Reformation's child, but it was the child of a father that rejected fundamentally his own authority, placing all his faith in a Book that all could divine with equal authority - sort of like throwing a Christian I-Ching. The child, being possessed of a self-seeking human nature, naturally read his own instinctive desires onto the Book and to his own advantage. This slow mockery of the Book continued as long as useful, but finally the time came when there was nothing to be gained from the pretence and the child rejected the Book. While the habits of mind that gave rise to the child's unbridled avarice continued long after the Book was mocked and rejected, the child's fate was sealed from the get-go. It could do naught other than go astray, given the terrible interal contradictions of his father's philosophy.
I think that the only hope we have is to return to orthodox Tradition.
That said, I think that one of the big practical problems was the advent of the modern corporation. The Church always accepted the institution of private property as a necessary concomitant of human dignity, but the term "property" implies a unity of ownership and management. The problem with "corporate property" is that it is (at least in big corporations) nearly oxymoronic. The corporation separates ownership of property (the stockholder's assets) from its management (the corporation's hired help). In addition, property rights tend to make people responsible to society, since they misbehaviour creates proprietary claims against them. The corporation tends to defeat this socially beneficial function of property via the bizarre legal recognition of corporations as separate "persons," which allows the unscrupulous to escape liability (both civil and criminal) by simply doing culpable acts in the name of the non-existent corporate entity.
While I recognize that some ventures are so intrinsically large scale that they can only be implemented by separating management from control (electrical utilities, for example), the large majority of enterprises should be held as sole proprietorships or small partnerships thus restoring the unity of management and control. Actually, that really means that we must restore property itself, for as I've said "corporate property" with its separation of ownership from management and liability is in fact no property at all.
The first step in our return to economic sanity is to greatly restrict the use of corporations by raising the bar on them.
The second step, IMHO (and this is really more of a bandaid) is to force publically traded companies to hire independent audit firms with whom they conduct no business other than auditing. Enron, Waste Management and so forth arose from these companies using the Big 4 accounting firms for both their public audits and for huge consulting projects. This created a conflict of interest, whereby a big firm like the erstwhile Andersen audited deals it made big money on setting up in the first place. The conflict is so glaring that the fact Congress has not outlawed this proves the incredible power of the Big 4 accounting firms (Ernst & Young, KPMG, Pricewaterhousecoopers, and Deloitte & Touche).
Walter
2003-12-09 19:25 | User Profile
Working for what and with what efficiency is a worth, just working is no value but an illness.
The only thing I see is that in USrael the common people are not as productive, are not as educated, are superstitious and do not have as much free time like in Europe.
Anything good about that? Well, it makes it easier for the plutocrazzzy to control the people and fractionize the Europeans and all American citizens.
This lead to nothing but some rich people which get even richer. It does not to much for the economy, for the folk or for the long term future in any way.
But in one thing you are right, in the former Protestant countries two things happened:
Socialdemocracy almost substituted the old Protestantism. Thats one reason for the things you mentioned. The other is that the productivity, intelligence and education is higher than in USrael, they just dont need that much time for many things. And the work on more useful things than they often do in USreal too...just thing about you whole entertaining stuff and cheap helpers...they dont produce too much or do they? They just work for nothing without insurance for their plutocrats.
And you should never mistake the Protestant ethic of Luther with that of Calvin.
Sure both had a strong work ethic, but Luther thought of community and justice. Calvin's theories more about individuals and predestination. This lead to the American catastrophy and the just the liberal thoughts coming from the West destroyed the Germanic Lutheran Protestantism of the North.
Today anybody which is still a believing Lutheran in the sense of what the Pastors are saying is an complete idiot.
Not that much better in USreal with there Judaeo-Christendom...but the neoliberal capitalism and its Plutocrazzzy need more and more idiots for keeping their system running.
2003-12-09 21:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE]While the overwhelmingly Catholic French and Italians work about 15 to 20 percent fewer hours a year than Americans, the more Protestant Germans and Dutch and the wholly Protestant Norwegians work 25 to 30 percent less.[/QUOTE]
And the French have a 40% less rate of heart attacks per capita than the United States. Mmmm, go figure.
Really, who cares if the Americans work harder than Europeans? What's the point? What's the benefit of working like a mule? Buy a bigger house and another SUV??
Also, I believe that Americans are just as indifferent to God and religion as this article claims the Europeans are. We're no more pious than anyone else. That'd be boasting, imo, if we claim we are!!
2003-12-09 21:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=xmetalhead]Really, who cares if the Americans work harder than Europeans? What's the point? What's the benefit of working like a mule? Buy a bigger house and another SUV??[/QUOTE]
The devil will find work for idle hands to do.
2003-12-09 21:45 | User Profile
Come on TD, this is...
Maybe if they would do more for their family, education and work for community it would be better! For sure better than to run as a big mac through the streets after dancing as potatoe in a theatre and after both cleaning a hotel...
2003-12-09 21:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]The devil will find work for idle hands to do.[/QUOTE]
Tex, I think the devil is quite busy in corporate and commuter America.
There's plenty of things for people to be involved in other than working 12-15 hours per day chasing the almighty buck only to find himself still unable to make ends meet.
Idle communities, neighborhoods, churches and organizations are where the devil finds plenty of opportunity.
2003-12-09 23:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=xmetalhead]Tex, I think the devil is quite busy in corporate and commuter America.[/QUOTE]
True enough X, and I was being facetious. Nevertheless, a big problem in this country is that no one wants to do the hard work any more, especially morally and culturally.
2003-12-10 00:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]True enough X, and I was being facetious. Nevertheless, a big problem in this country is that no one wants to do the hard work any more, especially morally and culturally.[/QUOTE]
But that is disproportional to the hard working of the masses. In fact some common people (not just the underclass, even hardworking managers etc...) dont have the time to do so or to look for the family etc. any more.
This working society is destroying all good values and only productivity and consumption in a perverted form of work ethic is staying alive...absurd.
2003-12-10 13:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]True enough X, and I was being facetious. Nevertheless, a big problem in this country is that no one wants to do the hard work any more, especially morally and culturally.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Tex. And yes, I know you quoted The Smiths with "the devil will find work for idle hands".....from "What Difference Does It Make"
Yes, the hard work for Americans, and where we're insufficient, is in the moral and cultural areas. We've been softened up by an unrelenting, alien, iron-gripped media with it's easy trap for falling into decadence.
Hello Wiemar America!
2003-12-12 15:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=xmetalhead]Thanks Tex. And yes, I know you quoted The Smiths with "the devil will find work for idle hands".....from "What Difference Does It Make"[/QUOTE]
:clap: :thumbsup: :punk: :clap: