← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · triskelion
Thread ID: 10924 | Posts: 6 | Started: 2003-11-04
2003-11-04 22:05 | User Profile
The recent consideraion of infiltration and false flag operations raised the matter of the worse examples of European populist parties. Some here have heard me trash as false alternatives the Itaian NA, the Vlaams Block and the Pim Fortuyn List for abondoning/never having core nationalist principles. While I don't think such parties are actually run by our enemies the desire to win votes at the cost of core principles rather then giving enough attention to making those central values appealing is a major problem. Winning votes and seats is worthless if the end result of doing so becoming just another establishment party that makes no real progress in slowing down the rate of our destruction.
The following press release from the ITP sums up the matter quite well. All should note that I do not accept the ITP's defense of Christainity although I often support parties that are affliated with them as they do great work and theyhave never made an issue out of my religion.
ITP Statement on Pim Fortuyn ITP, 15.06.2002 16:42 What the "far right" really thinks about so called nationalist Pim Fortuyn. Pim Fortuyn was not a Nationalist. He was not a patriot. He was not a racialist. He was not even "extreme right wing" as the media love to call anyone who defends their land, culture and heritage.
Pim Fortuyn was a homosexual who promoted his homosexuality and the "rights" of homosexuals - even to the extent of talking about quite disgusting matters on TV.
Pim Fortuyn wasn't opposed to immigrants being in Holland, or of race-mixing. Rather he wanted assimilation of immigrants - something Nationalists are opposed to as it destroys ALL cultures. Indeed, Pim Fortuyn promoted the Yankee 'Coca-Cola McDonalds' anti-culture which so usually goes hand-in-hand with promotion of homosexuality and race-mixing.
Pim Fortuyn even stated that he was happy to have sex with Arab young men!
Pim Fortuyn's opposition to immigrants was primarily born from his hatred of Islam, because it dared to say that homosexuality is wrong. However, on commenting on Islam and mentioning immigration what the born-against reactionary - who was pro-Israel and pro-new World Order - ex-Marxist managed to do was let the anti-immigration genie out of the bottle.
Dutch people at last thought it was 'safe' to talk about immigration - a subject they had been terrorised and bribed into remaining silent about for 20 years or more.
The fact that a left-wing agitator found Fortuyn to be a threat and carried out an assassination speaks more about the fragility of Dutch society and the violence of the left when it is threatened in any way, than it does about the kind of society that Fortuyn envisaged: a homosexual tolerant, mixed-race, pro-Israel, pro-America reactionary symbiosis of the worst of the left and the worst of the right.
Perhaps now the media across Europe will call for an hysterical clamp-down on the "extreme left" just as it does after certain 'patriotic' forces make gains in elections...
One positive thing to come from Pim Fortuyn's assassination is that the Dutch media and politicians who went so far in their extremism as to call Pim Fortuyn a Nazi, a fascist, Hitler, Goebbels and more, will now have to think twice before labeling any genuine Nationalist any of these ridiculous and outmoded labels.
And maybe, with Pim Fortuyn dead, the Dutch people will continue to be able to question immigration in an open and honest way - without the old hysteria of a media which now has blood on its hands. In that atmosphere the possibility is there for a REAL Nationalist alternative that will campaign for the rights of Dutch people, Dutch families and Dutch FREEDOM!
2003-11-05 02:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=triskelion]The recent consideraion of infiltration and false flag operations raised the matter of the worse examples of European populist parties. Some here have heard me trash as false alternatives the Itaian NA, the Vlaams Block and the Pim Fortuyn List for abondoning/never having core nationalist principles. While I don't think such parties are actually run by our enemies the desire to win votes at the cost of core principles rather then giving enough attention to making those central values appealing is a major problem. Winning votes and seats is worthless if the end result of doing so becoming just another establishment party that makes no real progress in slowing down the rate of our destruction.
I think you should make a better distinction between real "false flag" organizations and organizations that just have different values than yourself. Pim Fortuyn is a prime example. He obviously never pretended to be a nationalist or even a conservative according to the definition I would know. Nationalists could I suppose find tactical reasons for supporting him at times, but if they became mistakenly convinced that Pim Fortuyn's values and ideology were substantially similar to their own, that was their fault, not Pim's.
A false front operation is something entirely different - typically an operation which openly and unmistakenly panders to the your positions, for entirely duplitious motives. Like present-day AFP.
The following press release from the ITP sums up the matter quite well. All should note that I do not accept the ITP's defense of Christainity although I often support parties that are affliated with them as they do great work and they have never made an issue out of my religion.
Note that this is a lot more than we can say about many WN's, even to some extent yourself, in regards to Christians as your remark here seems to indicate.
2003-11-05 03:51 | User Profile
If you were in touch with people from the low countries when Fortuyn was riding high you would have noted that his party often presented themselves as being nationalistic (when talking to conservatives) and that the media actively promoted that notion as well. Plenty of well meaning Dutch patriots assumed that it was and it was not until well into the campaign that this misperception was understood by most Dutch patriots. However, your point is well taken and I feel it is more correct to view it as a pressure valve rather then a false front. The PFL does continue to strike me as the best single example of the short comings of the worse side of European style populism.
You said "Note that this is a lot more than we can say about many WN's, even to some extent yourself, in regards to Christians as your remark here seems to indicate."
Which indicates that I typed too quickly as I often do. My concern with the ITP is not that they are are openly Christian (which is clearly fine) nor that they at times border on clerical which I don't like particularly for tactical reasons but it's not a problem for me personally. Rather, I feel that they don't give enough empahsis at attracting agnostic, Protestant or Orthodox nationalists which is a result of their heavy emphasis upon overt identification with Catholicism. It's not so much what they say but rather the relative emphasis they place upon that matter that concerns me from a tactical standpoint.
In any case, the ITP is an excellent organization, all of it's affliates are very good and they have an excellent activist cadre so I am proud to work with them for our overwellmingly common goals. If you saw my memorium to one of it's founders, M. Morsello, you'd know how highly I hold them. Also note that I am 100% behind it's current head Roberto Fiore who is one of the greatest men alive to day.
As to other "WNs" (the term is not common here at all) I would never associate with someone that would not work with honourable nationalists of other religions. Almost all NS advoates (of all types save the fetish crowd) speak well of and support the ITP as do most of my co-religionists. In point of fact, the only people that I know of that would make a point to not support a senible Christian racialist group (not a CI cult) are the Evolians who I have a low opinion of and freaky American style Christ haters whom I don't even talk to. Basically, anyone that puts religion ahead of National Revolution is no one i'd want to deal with but thankfully, such notions are not common here like they are in the states.
2003-11-05 22:02 | User Profile
Thanks to FWI's insights it became clear to methat the PFL was never really a false flag opperation although they were falsely portrayed as a nationalist party by the media and they actively recruited nationalist support on that basis. That being the case I felt it worth while to present a genuine false flag which is seen as a populist party by many although it portrays itself as a nationalist one.
Seeing the earlier posts on the matter of Vlaams Blok raises the crucial matter of compromise that within the context of a more broadly defined National Socialism that I raised several weeks back. The VB seems to be a perfect case study of what is wrong with supposed nationalists favouring electoral expediency over principle. The VB leadership first choose to abandon revisionism in the interest of not being seen as extreme by the establishment and to avoid legal troubles. In addition, the VB makes the ritualistic denunciations "racism, hate and Nazism" as defined by the system but discovers that doing so is not enough to appease the anti Occidental establishment. As a result, the party chooses to take a hard core pro-Zionist stance and prostrate itself before Jewish interests. Now the party has abandoned any pretense of being a racial nationalist party by claiming that third world immigrants can be assimilated and that if they do so they are Flemish.
There is much wrong with such stances being taken by a party that wishes to reduce the dispossession of one's lansmen via a reduction in the scope of the third world invasion. First and foremost is that the principle reason to vote for a supposed nationalist party (the Vlaams Block is a false flag pure and simple) is to prevent the demographic destruction of your nation. A party that fundamentally accepts multi-racialism will obviously not seek to completely end third world migration let alone consider repatriation but instead simply attempt to reduce the rate of the alien influx. Anyone who has spent a few minutes looking over European demographic projections realizes that the simple and undeniable reality is that given the extremely high birth rates of third worlders in Europa that they will have within the foreseeable future the demographic clout to remake nations like Flanders into their own image even if the migration rates are reduced somewhat.
The matter of assimilation is absurd in that Occidental cultures simply have never and will never exist in countries with majority non Occidental populations save the imposition of a racial caste system which is a proven long term dead end. The very few that actually do fully embrace the host culture almost without exception embrace the materialism, decadence and the squalor that is social democracy rather then the healthy, life affirming traditions that the country once was based upon and that genuine nationalism seeks to embrace. In so doing, the assimilated alien is held up by the anti Occidental establishment as a an example of the virtues of multi racialism which gives our own lansmen reason to doubt the uniqueness and value of their own heritage even further while ignoring the overwhelmingly negative aspects of immigration.
In nations that still have Occidental majorities that reality is that assimilation is rare and when it does occur it is superficial (ex. A basic grasp of the native tongue or paying taxes rather then receiving them) for the simple reason that outside of European nations notions of cosmopolitanism and the fantasy that race doesn't exist are almost unheard of. When a large alien population is present in a decadent social democratic nation with zero sense of racial identity or national purpose (i.e. any where in Europa, the USA, Canada, Australia etc.) the aliens will, for the most part, choose to belong to their own distinct communities and seek to enhance their power by supporting those parties that either help or at least fail to oppose their racial interests. Eventually, the destabilization that is brought about by multi racialism will result in the destruction of the host culture/race altogether or a form of civil strife that permits the rise of a genuine nationalism.
The upshot of the VB's a betrayal of the cause of Flemish survival is that the party has continually been portrayed as "extreme right" by the propasphere, having zero prospect of being brought into a coalition government and facing the prospect of legal banishment. Let us pretend that the VB is brought into a governing coalition. Within less then a generation the demographic balance will have changed to such an extent that the parties like the VB will have no chance of being a major electoral force (assuming that they remain legal at all) and will simply be another leftist party pushing the anti culture just like the GOP in the states.
The solution is once again to focus on positive, real world activism centered upon one's community as I and other have described before. Such activism changes minds because it shows by example the positive and practical merits of genuine racial nationalism. The question we must ask our selves is are we willing to put forward the effort needed to make our views something other then an intellectual curiosity. If not we should simply support false flag alternatives like the VB and surrender the future of our children and nations to the god of electoral expediency.
2003-11-06 06:00 | User Profile
[QUOTE=triskelion]In any case, the ITP is an excellent organization, all of it's affliates are very good and they have an excellent activist cadre so I am proud to work with them for our overwellmingly common goals. If you saw my memorium to one of it's founders, M. Morsello, you'd know how highly I hold them. Also note that I am 100% behind it's current head Roberto Fiore who is one of the greatest men alive to day.
High words of praise indeed coming from you. Made a personal note to check these people out.
As to other "WNs" (the term is not common here at all) I would never associate with someone that would not work with honourable nationalists of other religions. Almost all NS advoates (of all types save the fetish crowd) speak well of and support the ITP as do most of my co-religionists. In point of fact, the only people that I know of that would make a point to not support a senible Christian racialist group (not a CI cult) are the Evolians who I have a low opinion of and freaky American style Christ haters whom I don't even talk to. Basically, anyone that puts religion ahead of National Revolution is no one i'd want to deal with but thankfully, such notions are not common here like they are in the states.[/QUOTE]
Hate to be picky, but I must say at one level I certainly put my religion ahead of my national beliefs, and anything else. Real religions have that transcendent quality. I support some sort of nationalists because it is consistent with my religious beliefs, not vice versa.
If people sincerely believe differently, that to hold to Christianity indicates lack of loyalty to nation, I respect that belief. It may hinder our working together politically, but that's life.
We may disagree on religion, but at least we do agree that religion is important, and must be taken seriously. It is not something that is just a matter of pragmatic politics. I just ask that they subject their own standards and beliefs to the same standard they subject mine to.
That's my sermon for today ......
As to Europeans - I don't know - from Jennifer at Polinco kicking the Bircher LGWH off to Friedrich Braun and Leland Grant, the ones I've seen and met personally haven't overflowed with tolerance for Christians. I do hope you're right about the broad body of European nationalists. Most right-leaning Americans feel uncomfortable working with people that seem so intolerant and dogmatically atheistic as these people I've personally met. Even if they are still quite a bit different than Communists in this respect, that still will be lost on a lot of people here. Our boards current membership to some extent reflects this.
2003-11-06 08:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Frederick William I]High words of praise indeed coming from you. Made a personal note to check these people out.
Hate to be picky, but I must say at one level I certainly put my religion ahead of my national beliefs, and anything else. Real religions have that transcendent quality. I support some sort of nationalists because it is consistent with my religious beliefs, not vice versa.
If people sincerely believe differently, that to hold to Christianity indicates lack of loyalty to nation, I respect that belief. It may hinder our working together politically, but that's life.
We may disagree on religion, but at least we do agree that religion is important, and must be taken seriously. It is not something that is just a matter of pragmatic politics. I just ask that they subject their own standards and beliefs to the same standard they subject mine to.
That's my sermon for today ......
As to Europeans - I don't know - from Jennifer at Polinco kicking the Bircher LGWH off to Friedrich Braun and Leland Grant, the ones I've seen and met personally haven't overflowed with tolerance for Christians. I do hope you're right about the broad body of European nationalists. Most right-leaning Americans feel uncomfortable working with people that seem so intolerant and dogmatically atheistic as these people I've personally met. Even if they are still quite a bit different than Communists in this respect, that still will be lost on a lot of people here. Our boards current membership to some extent reflects this.[/QUOTE]
I knew Marsello for some time and the interview with him is quite good. Roberto Fiore founded the ITP as well as it's Italian branch togeather. I've heard lots of weird rumours about Derek Holland but they are all short of back up so i ignore them.
As to religion it is certainly transendent which is what makes it worth while. However, with our existance secured our various faiths will die with us. Hence, I will work with a theocratic Carlist but have nothing to do with a leftist that claims to follow Asatru. A Christain racialist that feels like wise is one I'd prefer to work with but i often conspire with those less tollerant then I but only insofar as it serves a broader tactical or strategic goal.
The folks that ran POLINCO are Americans that were helping some Dutch comrades and I have a very high opinion of them. I don't recall the LGWH thing very well but he was noxious and a "blender" as the name recalls. GL and Braun are well meaning but overly emotional with respect to the matters dear to them which is understandable but very limiting in terms of activism. Given the tennor of some of the German threads here and the vile conduct of PN I think they often over reacted and assumed the worst which caused some troubles.
On the other hand, that sort of mentality is pretty rare within most German circles (save the ultras in the Anti-Antifa/Anti-company cirles which I am not hooked into) but instead I've found most German racialists and NS types to be very pan European in nature. Most Heathens ( save the freaks in the NSBM scene which avoid like the plague) are perectly happy to work with Christians provided they don't demand theological conformity which is the only option. If you read the "Germany's Place in Europa" thread about various Eastern/Southern European Christian NR activists working with Germany agnostic NS types you'd see what I mean.