← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · triskelion
Thread ID: 10705 | Posts: 4 | Started: 2003-10-24
2003-10-24 03:18 | User Profile
I have gotten five notes lately from people who had portions of this exchange and ask for all of it. So I thought I'd post it here as all are O.D. members. I also had an interesting exchange with him about the confused nature of a quasi monarchist Polish group that objected to globalism while endorsing Randian philosophy which is as silly as the whole "National" Anarchist farse. In any case, Mr. Ludanov is quite bright and it turns out that we had more in common then I thought. While I strongly support Pamyat and has other tastes I am happy to see that a traditionalist and non statist form of socialism is alive and well in the East and that some long time comrades of mine in the Baltics have even started up a "neo-guildist" enterprise that has had a very strong start. Good news is happening and if we want more we simply have to make it happen which is not so bad as the folkish wolrd view stands on it's own.
By mere chance I stumbled to this web site:
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com
It is quite interesting. However, those who think that there are no good Jews (as in there are no good negroes), don't need to visit.
Regards,
Sergei Ludanov
Hello Mr. Ludanov,
It is safe to assume that very nearly everyone realizes that everyone realizes that good people exist from all races so it seems to me a red hearing may be being raised here. Rather, the issue at stake is the dynamics of multi-racialism in general and how Jewry has impacted the Occident in particular. Obviously, Jews that object to Zionism exist but organizations such as the one you link to is quite frankly so minuscule in terms of size and influence that it simply does not matter in societal terms for the simple reason that Jews have fantastic racial cohesion that Occidental man lacks and that cohesion is directed for the purpose of destroying our people in all fashions.
It is very important that we whom advocate a Eurocentric national renewal do not mistake very rare exceptions as a viable contrast to the overwhelming rule. In part I say this because that differences of opinion within Jewish circles regarding tactics should not be seen as a division with respect to the current destruction of the Occident.
As an example one could point to the facts that while at various times throughout history the various Jewish communities within the Occident have supported Bolshevism, varying strains of democratic socialism and neo-conservativism all of these movements have been disastrous for Europa and that Jewish support for those ideologies has been in vary large measure done in accordance with how they perceive their own racial interests in opposition to those of European preservation.
In the end, anyone concerned with the preservation of the Occident must realize and act accordance with the reality that racial separation is integral to our survival. What needs to be done is demonstrating the potential that a genuine, positive racial nationalism holds for all European peoples and rejecting any role for racial aliens within Europa as an eventual goal. One will do far better reading the works of McDonald then pretending that Jewry is somehow other then a fundamental threat to the Organicism that we as nationalists wish to restore to our kinfolk.
Sincerly, Vibeke
Hello Vibeke,
Sergei: " Truly yours is nice rebuttal of my views and I do agree with much of what you wrote, however some disagreements with your ideas came to my mind, while reading it.
I do believe that "destroying our people" is not the goal of Jews as ethnic group, but rather means to achieve goals of Zionism, the same as destruction of Jews was not the goal of Hitler's National Socialism, but the means to build pure German State, as was the slaughter of Russians and other Slavs by Germans."
V.O.: Frankly, I reject the substance of the comment above in total for numerous reasons.
For starters, Jewish hostility to host populations was a very common feature of the history of every single nation that Jews have ever live in long before Zionism became a political doctrine in the 1860s. As I mentioned earlier, non Zionist Jews have also been highly malevolent to Occidental man after Zionism became a viable means of advancing Jewish racial/cultural/political ambition in the form of numerous kinds of leftist socialism (ex., certain trends within Anarchism, Social democracy and most horrifically Bolshevism) which you as a Slav should be very much aware of. If you are genuinely unaware of this matter I will be willing to plod about and acquire evidence for my position but it will take a week or more as I am very busy between an elected office, real life activism and running a few private businesses.
Hitler's form of National Socialism did not physically destroy Jewry in Europa intentionally or other wise. I am not particularly interested in an in depth coverage of the unreality of that particular genre of atrocity propaganda but if you wish to contest the matter I will be willing to give some attention to the matter but it is rather tangential to my purposes. The war against Jewish Bolshevism led by the Third Reich was very much a pan European enterprise although it was so primarily by default rather then by design. The conquest of certain predominately Slavic areas at that time relate back to long standing territorial disputes which I no interest in covering any more then I do long standing boarder claims of Danmark/Germany or Austria/Italy as such endeavors can not possibly go anywhere and frankly, we all have "far bigger fish to fry" as the Americans say. I will say however state that the conduct of the Einsatzgruppen and certain Slav & Baltic militias allied with them were barbaric and indefensible. A nice article on the matter is found here: 1. http://codoh.com/answer/anseinsatz.html which is quite good despite the last minute soft touch at the end. Plenty of very good material is found on the wider site dealing with that matter and related topics but note that I do not embrace the libertarian notions found at that site.
Sergei: "If we accept that the goal of Zionism is to rule the world, it is much easier to be done by destroying any unifying trends or attempts among other nations, while building unity among themselves."
V.O.: I don't think that Zionism or any other form of Jewish activity is intent on world conquest. Rather,they aim simply to destroy the Occident and the Arab world. You are right that societal nillism achieves that aim. My point was that Zionism is simply one of many competing , and at times complementary, strategies for destroying us. Again, you must read the McDonald trilogy.
Sergei: "Just only few years ago (well about 20 to be exact) Soviet Union was perceived as Evil Empire in the West, the word Russian was equated to the word communist and opposition to communism in societal terms was minuscule inside the former Soviet Union."
V.O.: Bolshevism was very much a product of Jewry (as is the so called "Russian Mafia") and it is insulting and incorrect to identify Bolshevism and it's various offshoots with the Slavic and Baltic peoples that were so terribly victimized by the worst form of governance ever created.
Sergei: "Historically communism played destructive role for the Western Society, that is why it was supported by Zionists..."
V.O.: In point of fact, a Zionist opinion was often quite opposed to Bolshevism on the grounds that it was not the best means to advance Jewish interests. In the end, while CCCP supported Zionism Jewish control of the West, America in particular, meant that Jewish interests were ultimately better served by means other then Bolshevism. An example of this is the fact that Jewry had massive influence over the old trade union left in the West and as Western industrial decline set in Jewish attention was focused on the "new left" and it's constituencies (the black power movement, Yippies, feminism and other facets of the counter culture movement etc.) which remained the case with the more modern "peace movements" and "anti imperialist" front groups whose leadership was and is dominated by Jews and those that fear them as this leftist article points out quite effectively: http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?articleID=4999 .
The subversion of conservatism in the states and else where to serve Jewish interests has been shown very conclusively in recent years by the growth of the neo-conservative movement whose leadership is overwhelmingly Jewish. That a neutered faux conservatism now defines a major segment of political activity/thought/power in the West simply demonstrates that to Jews the question is not one of right or left but of what vehicle best serves their wish to destroy the Occident.
Sergei: "... however when communist ideology became a unifying factor for Slavs"
V.O.: I have never seen anything to indicate that communism was ever widely supported by the Slavic and Baltic peoples. I did note that when economic disintegration was combined with a lessening of statist repression the whole evil mess collapsed and that the people that suffered under that horrid system viewed it as a positive development.
Sergei: "and more over the USSR became front line supporter of Arab States fighting Israel, dissident movement was formed in the Soviet Union and the majority of dissidents were from Jewish intellectual circles."
V.O.: Soviet support for the Arabs was not a rejection of Zionism as the USSR was the first state to recognize Israel who also had a quasi autonomous homeland within the USSR for jews (I can't recall the name off hand) and Soviet law held that "anti Semitism" (meaning any form of criticism targeted at Jews as a group) was very serious criminal offense. Instead, Soviet support for various Arab states was simply a reflection of the globalist designs of Marxist-Leninist ideology within the strategic context of attempting to minimize American influence in an economically critical portion of the globe.
Sergei: "I am not quite sure that "racial cohesion" really exist in any race."
V.O.: You must be joking. I could point to literally thousands of groups promoting racial interests for Arabs, Negroes, Jews and numerous Asian organizations. These groups often have very substantial membershipsand institutional clout in different nations across the globe. It takes very little in the way of observational powers to note that different races have different ways of seeing the world and that they feel a sense of commonality with those that share their genotypes and history. I could provide a thousand examples of this but I will rather simply assume that you didn't mean what you said or that you were joking.
Sergei: "What we call "racial cohesion" in my perception is just adherence to certain ideology and/or religion."
V.O.: I can't think of any way to address this comment as anything other then shear unreality. Cultures and religions are a reflection of the race that created them which is why those things change along with demographics. It seems that you have a very poor to non-existent grasp of the biology of race and the consequences that flow from it. If you are interested, I could provide you with literally a library of excellent material from widely varied sources that would totally demolish your previous statement although the Jewish issue already covered pretty well handles the matter. Again, you must read the McDonald trilogy. If you want I could provide you with sources for his works.
Sergei: " At some point of time Judaism (which undoubtedly is ancestral religion) was the basis of Jewish "cohesion", today it is Zionism, and that is the main reason why orthodox Jews oppose Zionism. They simply lost their control over majority of Jewish populace."
V.O.: The very fact that a religion is ancestral makes it an expression of racial identity. The fact that a religion explicitly serves racial interests refutes your assertions with respect to Jewry. In point of fact most Orthodox Jews do not object to Zionism which simply shows that you mistook a website put out by a trivial organization as being representative of something far greater then it is. The overwhelming majority of jews world wide, regardless of which ethnic sub-strata they belong to, religious view (ifany) and ideology are primarily concerned with "what is best for jews" which is why one sees organizations with dissimilar ideological dispositions consistently act in a way that serves Jewish interests if the groups in question have a disproportionately Jewish leadership. If you want to understand this matter I strongly advise you read J.J. Goldberg's "Jewish Power" and that you read: http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?articleID=1010 .
Sergei: "Ironically, the State of Israel is a practical implementation of "positive racial nationalism" that you advocate for."
V.O.: Seeing that you have a very poor, or perhaps zero, grasp of my ideological make up I would be grateful if you would refrain from stating what I advocate. As I am opposed to imperialism I reject the state Israel. The land occupied by the state of Israel was overwhelming occupied by Arabs prior to ââ¬Ë48 and the Jews have no valid claim to it and would not posses it were it not for successive U.S./U.K. governments being beholden to Jewish interests.
Sergei: "It is quite obvious that Jewish Zionists have no interest whatsoever in the "European preservation", likewise Eurocentrism should have no interest in the preservation of Zionism."
V.O: True enough, but understated dramatically understated. The incredibly long history of Jewish/Occidental conflict (and inter-racial conflict in general) proves that multi-racial societies are far more prone to very destructive domestic conflict then homogeneous ones which in and of itself is a very good argument against multi-racialism although a great many others are valid as well.
Sergei: "Any race centric movement is concerned only about the preservation of their own race at whatever cost for others."
V.O.: This assertion is totally untrue. All racialists, as opposed to racists with whom I strongly object to, value human biologic diversity and thecultures and folkways that those differences produce. As such, a real racialist advocates racial separatism and the preservation of all racial groups and objects to imperialism in any form. Naturally, as a European I am far more interest in reversing the decline/destruction of my own race then others and I will do what ever it takes to secure our existence. I will lend moral support for like mined efforts by other endangered racial groups or national grouping of any description because such a stand is consistent, valid and within my own racial interest to do. In short, if ask who I defend I will say those that defend self determination and the preservation of the uniqueness and for their folk.
Sergei: " I have a hard time to believe that in modern days it is possible to achieve true "racial separation" and the main opposing factor to any attempts in this direction are not Jews, or Zionists or any other "-its" for that matter but the global state of economy."
V.O.: Prior to the last 60 years our race was very much secure and separate. A chief obstacle to making it a reality again is the kind of suicidal blather found above which is largely a product of the propasphere's promotion of Eurocidial attitudes which you seem to have embraced.
Sergei: " Multinational corporations will put the tight lid on any attempts to establish any form of isolationism."
V.O.: That sounds like a great reason to object to multinational corporations and advocate traditional economics and limited trade. You seem to be promoting suicide for our nations because the dominate forces in present society wish it.
Sergei: "Capitalism by itself is an international form of economy, in order to prosper, such economy requires expansionism. In effect it is the global nature of capitalism that can be considered the main force directed against nationalism."
V.O.: You present a good reason for rejecting globalism of any form (capitalistic or communist) as both lead to misery and the destruction of that which is worth while in humanity.
Sergei: "Ideology by itself if not substantiated by economic needs is dead on arrival."
V.O.: What you say is true. That is why I advocate the economics I do.
Sergei: " Communism is just one example. When economy failed ideology followed it to the abyss."
V.O.: Communism represents nothing more then materialism expressed by absolute state control. It failed when the ruling selectorate was unwilling to employ the boundless violence needed to defend a fatally flawed ideology that is contrary to reality.
Sergei: " And I may be wrong, of course, but at this point I don't see any viable alternative to capitalism."
V.O. Yes, you are wrong. The misery that globalistic economics have inflicted upon much of the world shows that such models are far less viable for far more people then you realize. Systemic collapse has afflicted numerous economic systems in the past proving that no one model is valid across all times and nations. One can point to plenty of current developments which make the very survival of global capitalism doubtful while even the mildly unperceptive can tell that it definitely is a great misfortune for much of the world (including most Occidentals).
Sergei: "So, unless someone will come up with economical model, that can prosper without expansion and can provide the same or higher level of comfort to the general population, without relaying on cheap imported or distributed work force, the idea of racial segregation will not win the hearts and minds of average Americans or Europeans."
V.O.: Of course I should state that as I rejectmaterialism as a primary basis for societal order I feel that economics should serve the cause of communal preservation. What shape such economics take is clearly a product of the traditional folkways and mores of the nation in question. Personally, I lean towards the Mondragon experiment and various forms of guildism and distributalism but I realize that in certain cases various forms of Syndicalism and Corporatism are applicable as is capitalism in some guises provided it does not work contrary to folkish values which is doubtful given the technological advances of the past 100 years.
The matter of importing labor again raises the reality that racial supremacy is often contrary to the world view of racialists. It is of course a very good idea that racialists should point out that globalism depresses wages, destroys communities and wrecks one's economic future as well destroying all that is worth while in life.
As to the "hearts and minds" the fact is that these things, for most people, are swayed by heard instincts which are in turn a product of who controls the propasphere. The good news is that the inherent contradictions within the present order will, and to some extent are already, give rise to systemic crises. The key to reacting to these developments is having a sound ideology and activist strategy. Both of which I, and a great many others, have dealt with else where including the old EK list.
Sergei: "The nationalist ideas will appeal if we'll be able to proof that people would live better in nationalist state. I think that many people understand the potential dangers of mass non-white immigration, diversity and multiculturalism, but as long as those threads are potential and do not in general affect their personal level of achieved comfort at this point, they will not be inclined to risk. "
V.O.: What you say is true. Again, the good news is that Eurocentrics have plenty of real life examples of National states benefitting our lansmen. These examples and the world view they are derived from can be presented as a viable alternative with the propermarketing given a well directed activist cadre.
Dear Vibeke,
Thank you VERY MUCH for the response! I have to say that it gave me real pleasure to read it. And don't worry about insulting or attacking. When I present any ideas I always ask people to "tear me apart" and be as brutally honest as possible . This way I might learn something new. Frankly, when formulating my opinions I subconsciously realized that some of them stand on very shaky grounds. After all I, what you may call, am mere technocrat, who just recently became interested in the matters of national and racial relations. Although, in spite of all my resistance I was indoctrinated in communism for almost 30 years, before I came to the USA. My first "teacher" in racial matters here was David Duke's book "My awakening", followed by other books but at random choice. So, you critique was of a highest value to me and I hope interesting to all forum readers as well. I do feel that I am currently in no position to argue with you in the majority of issues, I will have to learn more, and after I do, it is quite possible, that there will be no need to argue at all. I will only comment on the subjects that I think I have "insider" knowledge of.
V.O.: "Soviet support for the Arabs was not a rejection of Zionism as the USSR was the first state to recognize Israel.."
Sergei: Also I noticed that some of my statements was interpreted differently than I intended them to be, but I believe that is my fault also. I guess I have to learn to express my thoughts more clear.
V.O. "..who also had a quasi autonomous homeland within the USSR for jews (I can't recall the name off hand)"
Sergei: Jewish Autonomous Region did in fact exist and quite possible still exist. It is (was) located in Eastern Siberia. I can't actually think about better place for it. :-) It was created in 1920-s, but I don't think it ever attracted Jewish population there, because of remote location and rather unpleasant climate.
V.O.: "... and Soviet law held that "anti Semitism" (meaning any form of criticism targeted at Jews as a group) was very serious criminal offense."
Sergei:On paper yes, but one has to remember that freedom of speech and press was also "guaranteed" by the Soviet Constitution (also on paper). I have not heard about any case in the USSR when someone was convicted for anti-semitism. Fact is that there were quotas limiting percentage of Jews accepted to the Universities and even to the Communist party. There was a ban for jews to hold managerial positions in certain industries. At the end of 70-s Soviet government created "public" organization called "All-Union Anti-Zionist Society" and rounded up all prominent Jewish scientists, writers etc. and had them to join this club.
V.O: "Instead, Soviet support for various Arab states was simply a reflection of the globalist designs of Marxist-Leninist ideology within the strategic context
of attempting to minimize American influence in an economically critical portion of the globe."
Sergei: Absolutely right! Whenever US supported someone, USSR will support their enemy.
Thanks again for the valuable lesson and best regards,
Hello Sergei, Thank you for your reply. I must admit that I was worried that my terse tone would have given offense. Some of what you said came off to me as advocating multi-racialism but I realize that such was not your intention.
I am delighted to see an apparent new comer to this thing of ours I call "the struggle". I got into all of this stuff back when I was 12 and I regret that I often act as if everyone interested in nationalism has my experience which I often regret.
With respect to the Jewish Autonomous Region I recall, thinking back to my old Soviet politics seminars, that at one time it was rather well populated and that Stalin pushed it as a model for Zionism although I think it is very much in decline these days. I thought I recalling hearing of a second such region down in the Crimean area but I not sure. Anyway, your analysis is pretty much right on the CCCP/Israel matter.
With respect to the laws against anti Semitism I think you may be off. In part I say this because I know that for first few decades of it's existence the Soviet Union did regularly imprison and murder people accused of anti Semitism as it was considered a counter revolutionary tendency. I would not be surprised to learn that a various times high ranking party members could criticize jews in the government or Zionism as an agent of Western imperialism but that merely shows that the law was unequally applied.
I did also used to know a fellow that was arrested and disappeared back in the mid ââ¬Ë80s for printing anti Jewish stuff there.
In any case, I visit Russia and Lithuania at least once a year and try to follow things in Russia although I know more people in the Baltics. I was wondering if you happen to be aware of Pamyat (spelling?) Which from what I can tell seems like a pretty good organizationand it seems that some publications Zavtra (Tomorrow), Russkii vestnik (Russian Newsletter), Duel, Russkii poriadok (The Russian Order) and Era rossii (The Russian Era) are alright based upon a few articles that I have seen translated into Dansk. Hopefully, you will be able to get some Pamayat material on economics and political theory and have it translated into English. The English site they have up as a little such material but it is rather sparse. Of hand it seems that they push a modernized for guildism/distributalism.
Cheers,
V.O.
2003-10-24 06:05 | User Profile
triskelion, I've only been to skim through this but I think this is a good find! :thumbsup:
2003-10-24 23:08 | User Profile
Thanks Puren,
Some pretty good stuff is in that productive exchange (like a homeland for the Jews) which make worth while. By the way, you posted something about traditionalistic Russian economics in some thread on a different subject that was quite good by I can't find it so could you repost it in it's ow thread?
2003-10-25 03:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=triskelion]Thanks Puren,
Some pretty good stuff is in that productive exchange (like a homeland for the Jews) which make worth while. By the way, you posted something about traditionalistic Russian economics in some thread on a different subject that was quite good by I can't find it so could you repost it in it's ow thread?[/QUOTE]
Hmmmn I have to find out what is you're talking about exactly.
The only thing coming to mind is that post I made of Konstantin Pobedonotsev's ideology [url]http://artsci.shu.edu/reesp/documents/pobedonotsev.htm[/url]