← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · friedrich braun
Thread ID: 10189 | Posts: 5 | Started: 2003-10-02
2003-10-02 06:11 | User Profile
The Southern European "Rienzi" sounds reasonable enough (as is often the case), so why do I have the uncomfortable feeling of reading a self-serving piece (lots of weasel words...)
While I'm not a Nordicist, "Rienzi"s frequent tirades aimed at Nordicists make me suspicious of his motives.
ABD and Legion Europa
MX Rienzi
It is important to note the reasons why Legion Europa is interested in the Ancestry by DNA (ABD) test technology. First though, we need to very strongly and definitely state what these reasons are NOT.
We do not believe that the worth of an individual, their "whiteness" or "European-ness", should be determined solely, or even primarily, as a result of their genetic markers. We do not believe in setting up standards of 100% "purity" (especially since these tests, and other genetic tests, are not, and cannot be, 100% accurate as pertains one genetic-racial ancestry) based on this test or any other tests. We do not plan to inflate the importance of strict biological, genetic ancestry to the exclusion of other factors, such as ethnic ancestry/identification, "raw" phenotype (appearance), as well as overall (extended) phenotype. We do believe in determining the overall genetic-phenotypic worth of any person of European ethnic descent, and we promote the idea of integrated bioculture - as against the narrowness of both the "biology is everything" school as well as the hyper-culturalist "race is relative" school.
If this is so, then what is the value of biogeographical ancestry (BGA) autosomal DNA testing?
Minor value:
Such testing can objectively and quantitatively test some comments - from both inside (e.g., Kemp's "March of the Titans") or outside (Pontikos and others) the "movement" - on race, racial history, and racial admixture. Rather than "subjective speculative rhetoric", we can examine hard data. In addition, such tests allow us to challenge the "big talkers" to get themselves tested. Thus, we can demand "racial transparency" from those who set themselves up as the "experts" as regards racial admixture in other people.
Major value:
Such testing can help reproduce the racial histories of our European peoples as well as that of other groups. Such knowledge would be useful for practical purposes as well as just for historical information. It has been said that "you have to know where you are to know where you are going." If that is so, then data on the genetic-racial composition of individuals, and of the ethnies/population groups composed of these individuals, is essential. If we wish to "preserve and then improve the stock" we had better know what that stock is. If we wish to determine relative "ethnic genetic interests", then we need to know the genetic structures involved. If we wish to use genetics as one component (1) of individual/group evaluation, then we need to know the genetic structures of the individuals and groups; in addition, we need to know the levels of admixture that normally exists in European ethnies/peoples, so we can gauge what are "acceptable" levels of admixture (1). We need to know the general relationship between particular BGA values and phenotypes, so we can predict what the phenotypic outcomes may be of certain genetic profiles. On an individual level, the importance to "know thyself" should be considered of value to everyone concerned about race. Such information can possibly inform marital/mating decisions - not only solely to "avoid" certain levels/types of admixture, but perhaps, more realistically, to attempt to match minor admixture levels so as not to reinforce them in the next generation. A person with minor admixture "X" may thus want to avoid another person with minor X, so as to prevent the possibility of offspring who may, via independent assortment, be enriched in X. A person with minor X may wish then, if they cannot find a "pure" mate, to find one with, say, minor admixture "Y." Of course, those with "pure" (or given the small potential test error, we can say ~"pure") BGA ancestries can, if they wish, only choose similarly ~"pure" mates. We can strive to decrease admixture in the European-derived genepool over time, but this can be balanced against other considerations, such as maintenance and enhancement of positively-valued phenotypic traits, for example.
We can see the possibilities to use BGA test data for positive ends. This then is the real value of ABD testing, not to crudely delineate "good/bad" boundaries of BGA values - something which is not what Legion Europa is about.
The test should be used positively, for our people's good, not negatively, for their division and diminishment.
Notes:
[url]http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/abd-le.htm[/url]
2003-10-02 20:38 | User Profile
There was a case where AncestryByDNA found the descendants of pure German immigrants to be "21% Mongoloid" which in my opinion is ridiculous. :lol: The problem is that they often designate gene markers that could be of Northern European origin as "Mongoloid" simply because they occur at a high frequency in Asiatic populations. All these "ancestry tests" are very new and crude, which is why I am very skeptical of them.
2003-10-02 21:14 | User Profile
Useless baiting? :ph34r:
Post some ridiculous studies on Russians.
[QUOTE=Henry Ford]There was a case where AncestryByDNA found the descendants of pure German immigrants to be "21% Mongoloid" which in my opinion is ridiculous (I'll post the article here if you want it). The problem is that they often designate gene markers that could be of Northern European origin as "Mongoloid" simply because they occur at a high frequency in Asiatic populations. All these "ancestry tests" are very new and crude, which is why I am very skeptical of them.[/QUOTE]
2003-10-02 21:25 | User Profile
[QUOTE=friedrich braun]Useless baiting? :ph34r:
I am not baiting you. You'll notice that I state clearly that the idea of a German family having 21% Mongoloid ancestry is ridiculous (except perhaps Heinrich Himmlers' family, lol) I simply think that AncestryByDNA is inaccurate (to say the least). Geez, you Germans are too sensetive - but then again you've got an Aryan master-race reputation to uphold :).
2003-10-03 20:42 | User Profile
Here's some genetic data on Germans I got from a Polish correspondent:
"Ok, I have seen various reports that included German samples in them.
Here are some figures I dug up today...
German mtDNA markers A 0 B 0 C .19 D .38 H 48.96 I 2.28 J 9.3 K 6.64 T 9.11 U 13.03 V 5.12 W 2.09 X .76 Z 0 Other 1.14
These results are almost idenical to those from Scandinavia, England, Poland, Russia, and even Finland.
Southern Europeans tend to be a bit different, but not by much.
A, B, C, D and Z are Mongoloid. I know that the "Other" category includes some sub-Saharan lineages. Not sure how many though because I have't seen the raw data. [The negroid lineages obviously dates from the 1950s, since there were no Negro immigration to Germany before that decade -- racial proximity = miscegenation; there's no more compelling reason for mass deportations of the African riff raff polluting Germany. FB.]
The sample was lumped together with Polish and Danish samples as "North-central European" in one study, and the figure for Negroid ancestry came up at 0.9% for the entire group.
German Y-chromosome markers HG1 40% HG2 20% HG3 30% HG9 3% HG16 3% HG26 3%
Now, another study said that Germans only had 6% of HG3 (Slavic marker). But it actually seems that the bigger the sample size, the more Germans with HG3.
This paragraph may interest you...
"Genetic difference between Germans and Poles have been reported previously, based on a 1-bp deletion at the Y-chromosomal marker M17 (haplotype Eu19; Semino et al. 2000), which has a high frequency in Poles (56%) but a much lower frequency in Germans (6%). However, other studies, using the Y-SNP marker SRY-1532b (synonym SRY 10831b, haplogroup 3), which characterises basically the same Y chromosome lineage (Tyler-Smith 1999; Wheale et al. 2001; The Y Chro-mosome Consortium 2002), have found a much higher frequency of ~30% in larger samples from Germany (M. Kayser, unpublished data; Rosser et al. 2000; Zerjal et al. 1999)..."
In terms of Tat-C (HG16), it seems it's very rare in Germany. Someone actually told me that it was sampled during a DNA test in Westphalia. Not sure why that would be, perhaps due to the migration of Baltic Germans to the west? But even here it was very rare (1-2% or something like that).
In regards to that AncestryByDNA test, I know of that one case. But not of any others that involve Germans or German Americans.
However, it seems that Scandinavians are indeed showing some East Asian admixture due to Lappish influence.
Bear in mind though, this is a commercial test, and I wouldn't say it's all that reliable yet.
I would stick to analayzing scientific studies on Y-chromosomes, mtDNA and Autosomal DNA.
However, I have't been able to find any detailed studies on Germans, even though I know they have been done.
Several populations from western Germany, as well as groups from Berlin and Lepizig were tested recently as part of this project...
[url]http://www.ystr.org/europe/[/url]
Maybe you should contact the people involved for some more details?
Oh yes, and I did read a study on Norway once which pointed out that the Norwegians were closest to other Scandinavians, as well as to Germans, Czechs and Croatians. In fact, the Germans were almost identical to the Norwegians.
Here are some crappy little reports on Germans I found a while back.
[url]http://www.promega.com/geneticidpro...isymp/henke.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000648.html[/url]
They don't say much unfortunately.
Regards
Dave"
[QUOTE=Henry Ford]I am not baiting you. You'll notice that I state clearly that the idea of a German family having 21% Mongoloid ancestry is ridiculous (except perhaps Heinrich Himmlers' family, lol) I simply think that AncestryByDNA is inaccurate (to say the least). Geez, you Germans are too sensetive - but then again you've got an Aryan master-race reputation to uphold :).[/QUOTE]